Resurrection of the Deadgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
I'm somewhat confused about the Church's teaching on bodily resurrection and how it works. During my years of Catholic (60's and 70's) education, this subject was never really stressed, or thoroughly explained. I was left with the vague notion that resurrection was a spiritual event tied more to the moments following our physical death. This is what I believed for years. I read from a link posted by JFG in an earlier archived thread, that the Church teaches that we are to be reunited with our physical bodies at the time of the second coming and final judgement. If this is the case, what happens to those who are now dead? Are they all in purgatory awaiting the last day? If some are now in heaven, will they have to come back again in the last days to be reunited with their bodies and then go back to heaven? Do we have to be reunited with our physical bodies? Am I alone in finding the idea of "bodily" resurrection somewhat disturbing? Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this. Jim
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), September 13, 2003
JmjHello, Jim.
What you saw me saying on that other thread is really what the Church teaches. I'm sad to read that this subject was not well covered when you were being educated. You are not the only one who was short-changed in many Catholic schools between roughly 1965 and 1980, during which period a lot of goofy, experimental things were tried and some poor, doubting-Thomas teachers held sway. It even continues today in some parts of the world.You are the first person, though, whom I have ever heard saying that he finds the Catholic doctrine "disturbing." In a moment, I'll give you a link to the applicable section of the new Catechism, so that you can see the formal teachings about the resurrection of the body. Before I do that, I'll respond to some things you wrote.
You: ... what happens to those who are now dead? Are they all in purgatory awaiting the last day?
Me: All of their bodies are buried (or decayed) now. But their souls have gone on to their "particular judgment." Only those souls and God knows where they are -- heaven, hell, or purgatory.
You: If some are now in heaven, will they have to come back again in the last days to be reunited with their bodies and then go back to heaven?
Me: On the last day, as Christ's second coming, God will miraculously raise all the bodies of those who have died and will reunite them with their souls -- in preparation for the general judgment. He has not revealed the details of how and "where" the judgment will happen, so your question can't be fully answered.
You: Do we have to be reunited with our physical bodies?
Me: Yes, but don't worry about it. Our bodies will be in a new, perfect, "glorified" form -- like that of Jesus after his resurrection. You will enjoy regaining your physical body -- unless you are bound for hell!
Here is the section of the Catechism about "life everlasting" (the last things). The reunion of body and soul is mentioned a few times, but most directly in article 1052.
God bless you.
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 13, 2003.
J.H has explained it clearly. Remember, we the human beings are perfect not just as a soul or just a body, but by the union of a body and a soul. We are not angels who are bodiless.When God created us by Adam and then Eve, he saw the beauty of his work and we see him expressing his happiness. When we get the bodies back, it is not a reverse process of decaying or anything like that. To ressurect the bodies, God does not need any time.
Paulos apostle clearly talks about it.
The 1 corinthians 15: 35 - But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 38: But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39: For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40: There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
42: So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
45: Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46: But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47: The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48: As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49: Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
51: Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53: For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54: When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
It is written clearly. We can't just be seperated from our bodies forever, but he gives us not bodies like this, but glorious bodies to each unique person and they will be clothed by the magnificient glory and light of God, and the people who rejected him at that time would not have the glory and they will feel the shame of being naked.
It is absolutely necessary that we be with our bodies for the ultimate pleasure and happiness, as it was intended to be, in the beginning of creation. It might be a disturbing thought to think from our perspective with our limited knowledge. It is not our place to be anxious about it. The future is for God alone, and it is absolutely safe in his hands. Human beings are meant to be the combination of a body and a soul, and we will be in perfection if we are faithfull to him, when we get our glorious bodies at the time of the judgement.
Those in hell and purgatory and heaven right now are all awaiting the last day, but they are not there WITH their bodies. There are pure spirits. Thier as well as our bodies will come back at the moment of the 2nd coming of our lord, on judgement day.
Once again, we CANNOT simply dump the body and think that we'll be fine as spirits. We were created in glory in our bodies, but it's glory was lost by the act of sin. We will feel the return of the body. We have to be reunited with our physical bodies BUT IT IS NOT THE BODY AS WE SEE NOW. We'll be in PERFECTION. No ugliness, no handicaps, no shameful feelings or things, no sex, just pure perfection.
If we do not get our body back and just remain as spirits forever, it is implying that God's creation of man was imperfect, contrary to what he himself has said. It is necessary to experience the ultimate pleasure AND the ultimate punishment for many. Just as the dead ones' spirits rejoice and suffer now, the body which is a non seperable part of our identity will feel the same and greater pleasure OR pain according to our choices.
-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 13, 2003.
Thanks JFG and Abraham. Your answers have helped me to understand the Church's teaching on this subject. Its hard for me to believe I didn't have this one straight after so many years. THanks again, Jim
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), September 14, 2003.
You're welcome, Jim. Any time. JFG
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 15, 2003.
Life after death ??Simple , there is no proof of existence !!
Until now , there is no-one risen from the death , that's a fact !!
(for me) All those talks like purgatory etc .... , sorry , I don't belief it !!
But OK , I can't proof it either , but the same counts for you !!
We bury or burn the deadones , so , bodies will rot in the ground or will be burned , plz , explain in such case , resurrection ??
Greetz from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 22, 2003.
"Life after death ?? Simple , there is no proof of existence !!"There IS proof.
His name is Jesus Christ. He was killed, but rose from the dead. There were many witnesses, and they reported the truth -- despite the threat of losing their lives. All were persecuted, and many were indeed martyred -- yet they did not withdraw their testimony.If you now lack the faith to believe it -- even though you USED to believe it, when younger -- we feel sorry for you. You can't shake OUR faith, though, with your atheistic merde, mon ami.
May GOD bless you!
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.
Who said I wanna shake your faith , I only tell my opnion , there is nothing wrong with that !! __ Believe in what YOU want , no problem at all !! __ I left religion without ANY regrets , 'coz it's not my way of life !! __ And who said , I have ever believed , at the time I was younger , (age: 0-15) , I only was going to church , 'cause my parents told me to go together with them , so that's no proof of belief !!But John , who says those testimonies are really true , they are all written "on paper" ??
Greets from a NON-BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 23, 2003.
Laurent,
We know Alexander the Great, Ghengis Khan, Charlemagne, etc., all lived and we can understand everything they said and did in their own lifetimes; and all we have is ''paper'', for proof.You see a Church that established most of the western world's great universities and compiled the Bible's canon, and has had successors to this day from the apostle Peter. What is here today you can easily see if you aren't totally ignorant. It has not arrived out of nowhere, or from some outer space. The life of Christ is fully recorded for us by the same sources. His death & resurrection are attested by this same Church. She is the witness, and if you refuse her word, you are simply a fool.
Consider what John says here: the testimony of hundreds of eye-witnesses is enough to prove Christ's resurrection. Many scores of these witnesses were persecuted and martyred in PUBLIC, during the early history of the Church. If even ONE of them had recanted, confessed that his witness was false;
It would not be a secret. We would think; So! They made it all up, to fool everybody. But they died by crucifixions; in the Roman arenas, killed by beasts. No martyr went down to death without the firm conviction that Christ the Lord lived, died, and then rose again! And; that the same Christ promised all who believed in Him that we will also rise from the dead when He returns to judge the living and the dead. They went to their deaths with complete faith in Him.
You say you're an unbeliever. That just means one thing: You have no faith. It doesn't mean you KNOW anything at all. Not yes, not no; about ife after death. You are simply in ignorance by your own choice not to believe. We are sorry for you and other unbelievers. Faith is a gift from God. He has not yet given you faith; so you are equal to every animal on earth. They have no faith either. I will pray for you to receive faith. We all will.
------
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 23, 2003.
You say you're an unbeliever. That just means one thing: You have no faith. It doesn't mean you KNOW anything at all. Not yes, not no; about ife after death.Just as you , we both can't proof who's right !!
You are simply in ignorance by your own choice not to believe.
How ??
Faith is a gift from God. He has not yet given you faith; so you are equal to every animal on earth. They have no faith either. I will pray for you to receive faith. We all will.
So, believers are a "higher" , better form of life , they are better than non-believers ?? __ Excuse me , you just have insult humankind !! __ A human is also an animalkind !! __ Besides , animals can also be happy !!
But about faith , I do believe there is life on other planets , in space , cause we do live !! __ But maybe strange , life on those planets is not written by us or anyone !!
Greets from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 23, 2003.
Truly, believers in God ARE a higher life-form. I say so; and you aren't a believer; so your life is only equal to the dumb beast who knows nothing about God. Why must I ''prove'' this?I can't; but death will prove it for me, because the day I die, I will not go the way of the other animals. God says so, and I believe Him.
He will soon prove it to you as well. You'll die and then meet Him; and He will not count you among His saved souls. It will be by your own fault, not because He didn't offer you faith to believe.
You will then ask, ''When did You offer me the chance to believe, the grace?''
He will speak the truth: On September 23, 2003; you disputed with my followers and I offered you the chance. But--? You didn't accept.''
Unless something very special happens to you reading in this forum. I believe God is working for your salvation here. But we must not judge you. No one here judges; we only say what's true to you. If God wills, He can convert you. We wait and we see.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 23, 2003.
"You are the first person, though, whom I have ever heard saying that he finds the Catholic doctrine "disturbing." "Not quite the first John.
-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), September 23, 2003.
Yes, "quite the first."Notice the definite article -- "the" -- in the words quoted:
"You are the first person ... whom I have ever heard saying that he finds the Catholic doctrine 'disturbing.'"The word "the" is there because I was referring specifically to Jim's statement that he found the Catholic doctrine on bodily resurrection to be "disturbing."
I was not saying that he is the "first person ... whom I have ever heard saying that he finds ... Catholic doctrine [in general] 'disturbing.'"
JFG
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.
Truly, believers in God ARE a higher life-form. I say so; and you aren't a believer; so your life is only equal to the dumb beast who knows nothing about God. Why must I ''prove'' this? I can't; but death will prove it for me, because the day I die, I will not go the way of the other animals. God says so, and I believe Him.So , You really think you're better than someoneelse ??
The higher you'll fly , how deeper you will fall !!
What do you have against otherthinking people ??
He will soon prove it to you as well. You'll die and then meet Him; and He will not count you among His saved souls. It will be by your own fault, not because He didn't offer you faith to believe.
You will then ask, ''When did You offer me the chance to believe, the grace?''
He will speak the truth: On September 23, 2003; you disputed with my followers and I offered you the chance. But--? You didn't accept.''
Unless something very special happens to you reading in this forum. I believe God is working for your salvation here. But we must not judge you. No one here judges; we only say what's true to you. If God wills, He can convert you. We wait and we see.
Why would I accept that ??
You've just admitted , you can't prove what will happen after death !! __ So ALL those theories (from both sides) are just a wild gamble !!
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But talking about low-lifes , even better to say , a piece of trash:
Talking about such masters of stupidity , hitler was one them !! __ That was a "nice" example of a very dumb ass-head !!
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Greets from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
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-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
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-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
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-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
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-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
Here's Laurent: ''So ALL those theories (from both sides) are just a wild gamble!''Sir,
You insist on gambling with your immortal soul. The moment you pass from this life you'll see our words were more than a theory. You expect to die and all you are will end forever. But that is merely YOUR theory. Because you're more than a dumb animal, you have an immortal soul. The soul passes from the body and into eternity at a person's death. That's no theory, because if the soul didn't leave, you wouldn't be dead at all.
You watched as your good Pere passed into eternity. His soul has never died. He may be in heaven today, praying for your salvation.
God has definitely revealed to man the last four things: Death, Judgment, Heaven, Hell. In the Old Testament, God said something which ought to freeze the blood in our veins: ''I place before you life and death. Choose, therefore, life.'' But Laurent, you insist on choosing death.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 24, 2003.
Look guys, belief in the immortality of the soul is not rocket science. The proof is in the pudding: what is man? A body certainly, but also a mind capable of conceptual thought not just perceptions. We have ideas, not just feelings....Now mind or intellect is not reducible to the body or brain because of its effects: conceptual thought is neither spatial nor temporal, as the body most definately is...so how could an organ which has parts and is spatial/temporal produce ideas which are neither spatial or temporal?
The difference is not one of magnitude but of quality. The only way to account for the effect of conceptual thought is to posit the existence of an immaterial (non-material) power or principle in man. You can call it soul or "organizing principle of matter" since it adds nothing to matter itself, but does indeed impart order to it and to things which are perceived.
Secondly, since effects cannot be greater than their cause, the cause of conceptual thought can not itself be spatial/temporal matter.
Ergo, (therefore) the pagan Greeks deduced from logical principles that man's body possesses a non-material soul which is capable of doing things that transcend the visible world.
Now by definition, bodies have parts. Anything with parts can break down, and thus in science and common experience we see the law of entropy and death. But the mind, this immaterial power of man, doesn't have parts because it's not material.
Now basing ourselves on experience we can also conclude by actions that the mind is unique to each individual man - and thus while not material is "dedicated" to each individual and is not something general to the species. If "mind" were general, we'd have no need for communication and no need for argumentation! Thus, again basing ourselves on common experience, we conclude that this immaterial power of human intellect, the mind, is neither material, nor something vague and non-specific to each individual person.
We also must immediately conclude that since it doesn't have parts, it can't cease to be... even when its body does fall apart.
This is why the pre-Christian Greeks concluded that all human souls are immortal.
Now as for the resurrection of the body - this is obviously something which is nowhere seen in the natural laws of physics. Once bodies fall apart and die, they're dead.
BUT, just because human souls don't appear to have an innate power to re-assemble their bodies, that doesn't preclude the possibility that spirits can't do the trick.
If you claim that spirits are not real because you can't see them, you are basically admitting ignorance - since there are many known realities which you can not "see" as in perceive, while you can "conceptually" come to know their real existence. Light and gravity for instance: the eye only perceives color or the lack of it... light is a conceptualization of what must be the cause of color.
Gravity can not be felt - perceived by the 5 senses... but it is known as the attractive force which accounts for events which we come to appreciate conceptually.
So the human intellect is more than feelings and perceptions. Conceptions open us to many dimensions beyond the material - for example the energic and concept of time/duration.
On the atomic and sub-atomic level "matter" is no longer solid... it becomes immaterial and subject to chance.
Here is where it gets interesting... suppose you could somehow control the chance occilation of sub-atomic particles. If you or something could, then it would control through subtle influences, all subsequently more complex (part-filled) things.
Here again we base ourselves on experience. Part of the clue to the existence of conceptual thought in humans is our mind's capacity to classify parts - take them apart and put them together.
As we have seen, the mind is an immaterial power.
If the mind can effect things through the body which it orders, it is possible that other immaterial beings could effect things too.
So even without bringing God into the picture, you can begin to sense that resurrection - is not beyond the realm of possibility.
Spirit certainly would seem capable of it - whether or not it happens all the time is a different matter. Nuclear war is something which is entirely possible - even though until now it hasn't happened.
So to recap, in science we learn many laws of reality, one of which is the law of preservation of energy and matter. The second law is that of life: it is an organizing principle of order which is the difference between a living thing and a dead thing. The principle adds nothing to matter except its internal order, it provides the identity within the constant flux of change. The mind recognizes the reality of this principle by logical deduction based on experience.
Mind is not material (because ideas and concepts are not spatial/temporal, and so the spatial/temporal brain organ can't be their cause - though it is their vehicle). And we know from social experience (communication, disputes, disagreements) that this immaterial mind is individual - thus each man has a unique mind.
Now since it's not material, it doesn't have parts (by definition), and hence there is no reason to think that it ceases to exist when its body falls to pieces.
This is why concluding that men have immortal (parts-less) souls is rational.
If souls can exist without their bodies, as forms without matter or substance without accidents, then it's within the realm of possibility for these principles of order to re-animate some matter in the future.
Certainly, then belief in the immortality of the soul is about as simple a "belief" as reason itself can make it. Faith in the souls' eventual resurrection however is a matter of belief - within the realm of possibility, but not proven (so it's not a conclusion, it's still a belief).
There is a distinction between reason and faith - they aren't contradictions, but they are different. Reason concludes that souls are immmaterial and thus, immortal. Faith believes that these souls will one day be resurrected in bodies again.
The atheist can therefore only reasonably be an agnostic about the Resurrection, but not about the immortality of his own soul.
-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.
Eugene , you wrote:Truly, believers in God ARE a higher life-form. I say so; and you aren't a believer; so your life is only equal to the dumb beast who knows nothing about God. Why must I ''prove'' this?
and now you're saying: You expect to die and all you are will end forever. But that is merely YOUR theory. Because you're more than a dumb animal, you have an immortal soul.
Now I'm really confused , am I a human or just dumb animal ??
Greets from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
Because you're more than a dumb animal, YOU HAVE THE SOUL GOD CREATED FOR YOU (you have an immortal soul).Now I'm really confused , am I a human or just dumb animal ??
By not believing, you keep your soul from God's grace. Your soul is not an animal thing, even if it's human. Humanity is the species, as animals are species.
God made us in His own image. He is pure Spirit; and the human soul is made in that Image. But, without faith your soul can't be with God in eternity. Although it's immortal, it is damned by sin. Unbelievers remain that way; God will not save the unbeliever.
How would we know? God has revealed it to mankind. Mankind would not have known if God hadn't revealed it. He revealed it because He loves us. He loves YOU, Laurent.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 24, 2003.
Eugene ,It's my right to believe in what I want , it's that simple !!
No-one has the right to force me to believe in something I don't agree !! __ Why would I ?? __ For (a strange) example: would you eat what you really don't like ?? __ Or do you buy CD's from bands you really don't like ??
Greets from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
Larry, why do you mention "force"?Who EVER tried to "force" you to believe anything at this forum?
No one ever did. People just try to persuade you to see the foolishness of your position and the wisdom of their own!
Maybe it is the feelings of guilt that you are experiencing which make you feel a certain kind of "force" -- the force of divine grace perhaps. You are being "forced," in a sense, to confront the absolute impossibility and illogicality of human existence without God -- and this is beginning to make you feel extremely uncomfortable. If you want to keep coming here, you'd better learn to deal with it. If you can't deal with it, you'd better leave again.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.
John ,Who says I'm feel myself extremely uncomfortable ?? __ I'm happy with the way I lead / live !!
btw , Leaving this forum , is the most easy way , so I won't , I only drop in when I want !!
Greets from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
Larry, what does "Greets" mean?
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 25, 2003.
John , actually , I should have to write: greetings or greet or in my case greet's (a bit playtime with words) , often I did receiving mails from the UK , canada , Australia & USA , and some of those mails ended with Greets XXXX !!Greets from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 25, 2003.