Creeds and Statements of Faith

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Creeds and Statements of Faith

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003

Answers

I thought the Bible taught against "creeds".

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


That organization reminds me of Jack Chick.

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 03, 2003.

Hi Gwen.

Have you spent much time looking at all of the threads?

I've been called a Catholic and a Protestant.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


No, I haven't had time, but I will. Some interesting discussions...

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 03, 2003.

It seems odd to me that where Catholic is listed under the creeds, they don't list the Nicene or the Apostle's creed. Or how about the spiritual or corporal works of mercy?

or maybe the laws of the Church: I. To assist at Mass on all Sundays and holy days of obligation. II. To fast and abstain on the days appointed. III. To confess our sins at least once a year. IV. To receive Holy Communion during the Easter time. To contribute to the support of the Church. V. To observe the laws of the Church concerning marriage. Incidently, the rules about meat on Friday never changed:

Canon 1251

Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on ALL Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Most Episcopal Conferences have determined that, instead of abstaining from meat, Catholics may perform an act of penance of their choosing. The main rule is still to abstain from meat on Fridays, the performance of another penance instead is an optional alternative.

I

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 03, 2003.



Hi Gwen.

Ok get ready for David and Kevin. I hear the shirt sleeves rolling up and the rapid fire of computer keyboards. David and Kevin try not to be too rough.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


BTW, Gwen, you might want to use some simple HTML tags in your posts. If you've noticed, your sentence got chopped. I'm thinking that you are using an iMac. That's what is causing the chopped sentences.

I've also noticed that I can't change the text size or color. I haven't try the color codes, they might work. These work: bold,italics,underline,

paragraph,
line feed.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


gwen,

This organization reminds me more of anti-evangelical Karl Keating from Catholic Answers Inc.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 03, 2003.


gwen,

Are you from Edinburg? Or what Panam do you go too?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 03, 2003.


What does abstaining from meat do in the first place? That is just a silly doctrine Catholicism has, and now I have heard Catholics say they are “giving up” candy/coke.

Catholics over here are falling away from their church doctrine. I have heard them say, “We don’t believe in transubstantiation anymore.”, or “Mary had other children.”

Even though those are false doctrines (i.e. transubstantiation, perpetual virginity), I am surprised Roman Catholics deny it (other here in my part of Texas that is).

I also see Roman Catholic churches disguising themselves to be more like Christian churches.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 03, 2003.



David, I have this peculiar feeling that you live very near me. I also have a peculiar feeling that we have attended at each others presence at some place in time. Does "Faith Pleases God" mean anything relative to you?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


Nope, sorry rod, doesn't mean anything to me. I doubt we met before.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 03, 2003.

rod, what's your full name? Just to let you know, I live in Mission; I am guessing you live near Brownsville.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 03, 2003.

Weslaco

I've posted using my full name at the very beginning.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


The first few times that I conversed with you--in the Catholic Forum--I told you that you I thought you lived near me. I know that you might view dreams as anything significant, but I dreamt of two people getting "banned" from a church. It was .... well you know who. The church/building was really the forum. Oh, well, it is nothing to re-hash.

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.



Rod A. Rodriguez. So your first name is Rod?

Anyways, there were alot of people banned from the Catholic forum.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 03, 2003.


Uh, David, you and I know how behind the times the Valley is. This is why I couldn't quite get a grasp of what the Catholics in the other forum were talking about. They don't worship the same as Catholics down here. La Virgen de San Juan is a big deal, more so than the Northerner's concept of the Immaculate Conception. The problem, I sense, is the big Mexican Nationals' influence in the Valley's Catholic Scene. Juan Diego is a bigger deal, it seems like. Much like the early French worship of the Virgin Mary--Notre Dame aparitions.

rod..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


"Rod" was given to me in Jr. High. My real name is...well, if you check the historical word for "king", you'll get my real first name.Uh, next you'll want to do an internet search for my picture, right? You'll need my exact spanish spelling of my name for that.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


Generally, I was/am against the banning of people from any forum. But, I did make warnings. Funny, I've asked some hard hitting questions, but I haven't received any answers in the Catholic Forum. They just ignore me or forget about me. Hmmm?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.


This is very interesting that all 3 of us are from the Valley. I was born in Raymondville and lived in the Valley from when I was in second grade to 11th grade. I have lived in Brownsville, Donna, Edinburg and Pharr. It is a small world.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 03, 2003.

Kevin you still live in the Valley?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 03, 2003.

I think we are being called to start a new Christian movement.

Ok, maybe not.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 04, 2003.


Okay. Yes I do work at pan am. Maybe I should use a fake address, since posting here I am gotten a lot of strange mail in just a couple days.

rod said that the Catholics here (the Valley) don't worship the same as the elsewhere. I would definetly agree. Coming from the North, I grew up with a huge diversity in the Catholic population. We had the Italian church (St. Anthony's but for some reason pronounced "St Ant'nys'", the Polish National Church, the Irish and of course the French Canadians, and we had the Shrine of Our Lady of La Sallette. I had attended an indult mass as well as an traditional parish, so when I got here and attended mass, it was all very strange to me. The Mariachi Mass really freaked me out. We do have Polka masses up North but I've not been to one. I have heard there is a SSPX mass held at a local hotel, but I would not attend there. There aren't any indults arount YET, but maybe the Bishop will agree to one in the future. The Catholic churches here, with the exception of the one we attend, seem very Protestant to me. I know there are people who feel the folk music helps them worship, but I prefer an organ or choir. Honestly when I recently attended a mass at a different parish, it was so different I didn't know what was going on. Also that was the first time I've seen altar girls.

David, you say that Catholics are falling away from their doctrine. I have so much to say about this I don't even know where to start. Transubstantiation is not a false doctrine, but to hear the average Catholic today talk, you'd think they never got properly catechised. Artificial contraception is still a sin but more and more Catholics are using it. You know what happened to change things for the worse? Yes, the Vatican II council. And I'm not a schismatic but I do think that so much went wrong after the Mass was changed. Well, more later. And by the way, Karl Keating is not too bad. I prefer Bishop Fulton Sheen, though.

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 04, 2003.


That should be Archbishop Fulton Sheen.

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 04, 2003.

I attend mass on specific family events. I was baptized a Catholic and was Confirmed. My house looks Catholic and my thinking still holds the basic doctrine/catechism. But, people are confused about my affiliations with Protestantism and Catholicism.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 04, 2003.


gwen,

Transubstantiation is a false doctrine.

As for the email, maybe it would help to make a free one at hotmail. I haven't received any weird mail on my main address, except for the usual "I'm from Cambodia, need your account and pass to deposit 10 million dollars to hide from my government" ones.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.


If Jesus was not speaking literally about his flesh, why did His disciples say "This saying is hard, who can hear it?" And why did He not correct them when he realized they were taking it literally?

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 05, 2003.

Here is some info from the other side:

rod's original thread in the Catholic Forum.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


Here is some more of my question/answer writings.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


David,

No, I do not still live in the valley. It has certainly grown since I left back in 1977.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 05, 2003.


rod,

Mission Eagles play at Weslaco today. No doubt Weslaco will win.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.


Hi David.

Football? Is that a sport or something?

When I was in high school, I was in the band. Football games were an excuse to get out and make music. The half-time shows were the "real" reason to be out on a Friday night.

I hope Mission slaughters Weslaco to the ground. Go! Band!

...all in fun!

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


Um.....rod I'm in band. How old do you think I am?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.

I'm a senior at Mission Veteran's Memorial.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.

Hi Kevin.

I'd be willing to figure that in 1977 you left for college and never looked back. I left for college in 1978 thinking I would never come back to the Valley..........here I am back in the Valley. The big city "rat race" can be quite de-humanizing. The Valley is becoming another "rat race", oh well.

Ok, now everybody is adding up all the years and trying to figure out our ages. I'm still 7 years old.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


I knew it, David. If you dig up some of our older threads, I once try to guess your age. You never answered.

I used to be a Band Director up in the Fort Worth area. The job loved me, but I didn't love the job. I was the only director doing the job of at least three people.

I suppose that you are a trumpet player, yes?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


I am a sax player. If you would have read this old thread I started you would have found out. Musical Instruments

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.

And I don't recall you trying to guess my age. I thought the 1986 would tell it.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.

Yes, I forgot ! My daughter is talking my ear off as we speak.

Sax was my main instrument, but I started on clarinet. I was at WHS the year we went to Hawaii for a jazz tour. Those were to good days when bands could go on big trips.

Do you have a band of your own? (church group or something)

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


It must of been Kevin's age I was questioning.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


I started on clarinet too, then went to sax. No, I don't have a band. We went to Orlando our freshman year to Disney world; We were going to Cancun on a cruise but we didn't raise enough money.

Kevin is in his 50's, I think. I remember in the Catholic forum they would attack him and call him "senior cheif".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.


One of the other main reasons for my participation in the Pentecostal Church was the music. I got involved with a recording and touring band (small time) spreading the Gospel. Just imagine; I was a Catholic in a Pentecostal Gospel Band touring the Pentecostal Scene playing keyboards and writing music. Talk about contridiction of terms.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


David. Do you attend any rivals or conventions that provide Gospel bands? If you do, keep an eye out for a band called "Big Skye". The lead guitar player is a good friend of mine. We've toured together way back when. The band is Pentecostal, so I'm wondering if you've heard of them. They used to be called "Teztigo" (nothing at all to do with Jehovah Witness).

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


Nope, never heard of them. Have you heard of a group called Pathway (?). That our church band.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.

Gwen,

Transubstantiation IS a false doctrine.

The Catholic Church interprets John 6 literally, but Jesus often spoke in a figurative manner: "I am the bread of life (just a few verses earlier in the same chapter); I am the door; I am the vine; I am the light; I am the good Shepherd..."

Speaking in a figurative manner is quite common. Unless of course you are a Catholic and take this passage "out of context" and make John 6:54 literal instead of figurative.

It is further argued (by the Catholic Church) that Jesus' words must be taken literally to explain why some decided to turn away. Indeed it would cause some to turn away if they took Jesus' words to mean truly eating real flesh and drinking real blood. After all, such would be most distasteful for the Jews (and against the Law). But perhaps even more are turned away from following Jesus (then and still today) by the demands of being so completely filled with Jesus. Jesus elsewhere said that we need to count the cost (Luke 14:25-33), and that the cost is giving our all back to Him.

Jesus said that He is the bread that gives life, and that such is necessary to sustain spiritual life. Thus it seems reasonable that, when He said that we need to eat His flesh and drink His blood, He likely meant that we need to make His life to be our life. We need to fully partake of Him and accept Him and His ways; we need to be completely filled with Him and be completely committed to Him! Sadly, that was and is too high a price for many to pay.

Here are some points that are AGAINST a LITERAL application to the Lord's Supper (Eucharist).

The Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist is a means of obtaining grace and is thus a source of spiritual and eternal life; v48 says that Jesus, not the Eucharist, is the source of spiritual and eternal life.

Verse 53 says that one who does not fully partake of Him will not have eternal life; a literal interpretation in regards to the Eucharist would make partaking of such an absolute requirement.

Verse 54 says that one who does fully partake of Him will have eternal life. This, however, CANNOT be literally said in regards to those who partake of the Lord's Supper (the Eucharist, as taught by the Catholic Church). 1 Corinthians 11:27ff speaks of those who did so in an unworthy manner and were thus apparently spiritually weak and dead.

2 Corinthians 5:16 says, "Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer." Here are some questions to consider:

1. How was it possible for the physical body of Christ to be fully present at the Last Supper in both the human body of Christ and in the bread and the wine?

2. How is it possible for the physical body of Christ to be actually and completely present in both species (the bread and the wine; wouldn't that be 2 complete Christs?)?

3. If He is complete in one species, how is He "more complete when given under both kinds" (CCC #1390)?

4. How is it possible for the physical body of Christ to be actually and completely present at different masses at the same time?

5. How can it be that the sacrifice of the mass "is offered in an unbloody manner" (CCC #1367) if it is the same sacrifice as that of the cross?

6. If the one, original sacrifice was bloody, then an unbloody sacrifice must be something more than just a re-presentation of the same sacrifice of the cross. There is no denying that Christ as spirit is omnipresent, but the Catholic Church teaches that His physical body and blood were and are present. Catholics respond by saying that such things "cannot be apprehended by the senses" (CCC #1381) and should not be questioned, that they are mysteries and should be accepted by faith. But the Catholic Church gives specific teachings on this issue, teachings which invite an academic and sensible examination of the issue. What is the theological necessity of continued offerings of the one sacrifice on the cross?

7. It has already been offered up to God for all sins of all time. Why must it be offered again and again?

8. Does God somehow forget or cease to apply the cleansing blood of that initial sacrifice?

The NT shows that the Lord's Supper is a memorial for us as Christians, but the Catholic Church seems to teach that it is for God, that it is something He requires in order for our sins to be forgiven once again.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 05, 2003.


No. The name sounds familiar, but I can't place them. Do they play much at rivivals?

You might ask them if they've heard of "Big Skye". "Big Skye" has done radio and television, mostly in Mexico. They've cut a few CD's and they are presently working on another CD. The thing about them is that they are Valley folks. It would be nice to see them go big time. I guess that's every bands dream, of course. But, it is the Gospel that is there main drive.

I do miss being part of that. I'm in a secular band; we play for money. I do wish I could have continued with the Christian band, but it fell apart due to family circumstances.

rod..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


I've heard of Pathway. Hey David, what church do you attend?

-- Eli (eliorta@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.

Assemblies of God, El Divino Redentor

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.

rod,

No, I didn't leave to go to college. I left to move up to East Texas, Crockett where I graduated from high school in 1978 and joined the Navy in 1979.

David,

I am not in my 50's, just turned 43 this year. They didn't call me "senior chief" in the Catholic forum, they started out by making fun of me in one forum by calling me "chief" I think it had something to do with the name of the thread and I shot back that I was a "senior chief" in the navy and just retired last year.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 05, 2003.


Hi Eli. Maybe you tell about that lead guitar player in "Big Skye"?

Kevin, I guess you've already figure out that you and I are the same age. I never believed in "mid life crisis", until it hit me like a ton of bricks. This "crisis" also pushed me into following God's will. I suppose everything in life has a purpose.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


I hope Mission slaughters Weslaco to the ground. Go! Band!

Mission 49
Weslaco 21

Yes! So much for "footbaw".

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 05, 2003.


Hi Kevin.

I have asked the same questions to Catholics. It seems that the only answers I received dealt with pure faith as the answer.

My main question was, "How can Christ be divided into so many pieces?".

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 06, 2003.


rod,

Exactly!!! Catholics take this passage in the book of John and TWIST it for their own devices and this passage that they use (John 6:54) does NOT even speak of the Lord's Supper. Verse 63 EXPLAINS exactly what Jesus meant in verse 54, but Catholics are so blinded by their own leaders that they refuse to see the truth even though it is right in front of them.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 06, 2003.


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