Kevin:

Gail thinks that men (and women) are too IGNORANT to understand the Bible, so we CANNOT have a private interpretation of the word of God because it leads to schism. That is why Catholics claim to be the sole interpreter of the Bible because we (the laity as they call it) cannot understand what God has PLAINLY written in His word.

..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003

Answers

Kevin?

If you think that "schism" will not occur or is not that big of a deal, how would you explain the following?

..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

Orthodox Churches

* Eastern Orthodox Churches
* Albanian Orthodox Church
* Orthodox Church of Alexandria
* Orthodox Church in America
* Orthodox Church of Antioch
* Bulgarian Orthodox Church
* Chinese Orthodox Church
* Orthodox Church of Constantinople
* Cypriot Orthodox Church
* Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church
* Estonian Orthodox Church
* Orthodox Church of Finland
* Georgian Orthodox Church
* Church of Greece
* Japanese Orthodox Church
* Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
* Orthodox Church of Mount Sinai
* Polish Orthodox Church
* Romanian Orthodox Church
* Russian Orthodox Church
* Serb Orthodox Church
* Ukrainian Orthodox Church

* Oriental Orthodox Churches
* Armenian Apostolic Church
* Coptic Orthodox Church
* Ethiopian Orthodox Church
* Eritrean Orthodox Church
* Mar Thoma Orthodox Church
* Syrian Orthodox Church

* Assyrian Church of the East

* Schismatic Orthodox Churches
* Belorussian Orthodox Church
* Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece
* Croatian Orthodox Church
* Macedonian Orthodox Church
* Montenegrin Orthodox Church
* Old Believers
* Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
* Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church

Celtic Christianity

Gnosticism

* Mandaeanism
* Carpocratians
* Manichaeism
* Borborites
* Bogomils
* Cathars

Catholicism

* Roman Catholic Church
* Eastern Catholic Churches
* Armenian Catholic Church
* Chaldean Catholic Church
* Coptic Catholic Church
* Ethiopian Catholic Church
* Maronites
* Melkites
* Syrian Catholic Church
* Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
* Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

* American Catholic Church
* Catholic Apostolic Church
* Catholic Life Church
* Christ Catholic Church
* Liberal Catholic Church
* North American Old Catholic Church
* Old Catholic Church
* Palmarian Catholic Church
* Polish National Catholic Church
* Philippine Independent Church

Protestantism

* Early Protestants (before Luther)
* Waldensians
* Lollards
* Hussites

* Lutheran
* American Association of Lutheran Churches
* Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
* Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
* Church of Denmark
* Church of Estonia
* Church of Finland
* Church of Iceland
* Church of Norway
* Church of Sweden
* Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
* Church of the Lutheran Confession
* Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
* Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
* Evangelical Lutheran Church in South Africa
* Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
* Evangelical Lutheran Synod
* Laestadian Lutheran Church
* Lutheran Church of Australia
* Lutheran Church of New Zealand
* Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
* Lutheran Church - Canada
* Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

* Calvinist
* Reformed
* Canadian and American Reformed Churches
* Christian Reformed Church in North America
* Church of Lippe
* Dutch Reformed Church
* Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
* Free Reformed Churches of North America
* Heritage Reformed Congregations
* Hungarian Reformed Church in America
* Orthodox Christian Reformed Church
* Protestant Reformed Churches in America
* Reformed Christian Church in Croatia
* Reformed Church in America
* Reformed Church in Bavaria and Northwestern Germany
* Reformed Church in Hungary
* Reformed Church in the United States
* Reformed Church of Alsace and Lorraine
* Reformed Church of Japan
* Remonstrant Brotherhood
* United Reformed Church
* United Reformed Churches in North America

* Presbyterian
* Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
* Bible Presbyterian Church
* Church of Scotland
* Cumberland Presbyterian Church
* Evangelical Presbyterian Church
* Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales
* Free Church of Scotland
* Free Church of Scotland Continuing
* Free Presbyterian Church
* Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
* Korean Presbyterian Church in America
* Orthodox Presbyterian Church
* Presbyterian Church in America
* Presbyterian Church in Ireland
* Presbyterian Church in Korea
* Presbyterian Church in the Republic of Korea
* Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand
* Presbyterian Church of Australia
* Presbyterian Church of Canada
* Presbyterian Church of Korea
* Presbyterian Church of Wales
* Presbyterian Church USA
* Reformed Presbyterian Church - Covenanted
* Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
* Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
* United Free Church of Scotland
* Uniting Presbyterian Church in Southern Africa

* see also United / Uniting churches

* Anglicans
* Anglican Communion
* Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia
* Anglican Church of Australia
* Anglican Church of Canada
* Anglican Church of Kenya
* Anglican Church of Korea
* Anglican Church of Papua New Guinea
* Church in Wales
* Church of England
* Church of Ireland
* Church of Nigeria
* Church of Uganda
* Church of the Province of Burundi
* Church of the Province of Central Africa
* Church of the Province of Melanesia
* Church of the Province of Myanmar
* Church of the Province of Rwanda
* Church of the Province of South East Asia
* Church of the Province of Southern Africa
* Church of the Province of Tanzania
* Church of the Province of the Indian Ocean
* Church of the Province of the West Indies
* Church of the Province of West Africa
* Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East
* Episcopal Church
* Episcopal Church of Cuba
* Episcopal Church of the Sudan
* Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui
* Iglesia Anglicana de la Region Central America
* Iglesia Anglicana de México
* Iglesia Anglicana del Cono Sud de las Americas
* Igreja Episcopal do Brasil
* Lusitanian Church of Portugal
* Nippon Sei Ko Kai (Japan)
* Philippine Episcopal Church
* Scottish Episcopal Church
* Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church

* Schismatic Anglican Churches
* African Orthodox Church
* African Orthodox Church of the West
* African Orthodox Episcopal Church
* American Episcopal Church
* Anglican Mission in America
* Anglican Province of Christ the King
* Charismatic Episcopal Church
* Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
* Free Church of England
* Free Protestant Episcopal Church
* Reformed Episcopal Church
* Southern Episcopal Church

* Methodists
* African Methodist Episcopal Church
* African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
* Bible Methodist Church
* British Methodist Episcopal Church
* Chinese Methodist Church
* Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
* Congregational Methodist Church
* Church of the Nazarene
* Evangelical Church
* Evangelical Methodist Church
* Free Methodist Church
* Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches
* Independent Methodist Church
* Korean Methodist Church
* Methodist Church, Hong Kong
* Methodist Church in Ireland
* Methodist Church in Singapore
* Methodist Church of Great Britain
* Methodist Church of New Zealand
* Methodist Church of South Africa
* Methodist Church of Sri Lanka
* Primitive Methodist Church
* Salvation Army
* United Methodist Church
* Wesleyan Reform Union
* see also United / Uniting churches

* Pietists & Holiness
* Church of God (Anderson)
* Moravians
* Religious Society of Friends (aka Quakers)

* Plymouth Brethren

* Anabaptist
* Amish
* Beachy Amish
* Nebraska Amish
* Old Order Amish
* Swartzendruber Amish

* Church of the Brethren
* Hutterites
* Mennonites
* Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations
* Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand
* Brethren in Christ
* Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
* Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka (Holdeman Mennonites]])
* Conservative Mennonite Conference
* Chortitzer Mennonite Conference
* Evangelical Mennonite Church
* Evangelical Mennonite Conference
* Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference
* Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference
* Mennonite World Conference
* Mennonite Church Canada
* Mennonite Church in the Netherlands
* Mennonite Church USA
* Swiss Mennonite Conference
* US Conferences of Mennonite Brethren Churches

* Baptist (All Baptist associations are congregationalist affiliations for the purpose of cooperation, in which each local church is governmentally independent)
* American Baptist Associatiation
* American Baptist Church
* American Baptist Convention
* Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
* Association of Grace Baptist Churches
* Baptist Bible Fellowship International
* Baptist Conference of the Philippines
* Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
* Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
* Baptist General Conference
* Baptist General Conference of Canada
* Baptist General Convention of Texas
* Baptist Missionary Association of America
* Baptist Union of Australia
* Baptist Union of Great Britain
* Baptist Union of New Zealand
* Baptist Union of Scotland
* Baptist Union of Western Canada
* Baptist World Alliance
* Bible Baptist
* Canadian Baptist Ministries
* Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
* Central Baptist Association
* Central Canada Baptist Conference
* Christian Unity Baptist Association
* Colored Primitive Baptists
* Conservative Baptist Association
* Conservative Baptist Association of America
* Conservative Baptists
* Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
* European Baptist Convention
* Evangelical Baptists of S. Haiti
* Fellowship of Evangelican Baptist Churches in Canada
* Free Will Baptist Church
* General Association of General Baptists
* General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
* General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
* General Six-Principle Baptists
* Independent Baptists
* Independent Baptist Church of America
* Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptists Association
* Landmark Baptist Church
* Liberty Baptist Fellowship
* Myanmar Baptist Convention
* National Baptist Convention of America
* National Baptist Convention, USA
* National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
* National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
* National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
* North American Baptist Conference
* Northern Baptist Convention
* Norwegian Baptist Union
* Old Baptist Union
* Old German Baptist Brethren
* Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church
* Primitive Baptists
* Progressive Baptists
* Progressive National Baptist Convention
* Progressive National Baptist Convention, USA
* Reformed Baptists
* Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
* Regular Baptists
* Separate Baptists
* Separate Baptists in Christ
* Seventh Day Baptists
* Southeast Conservative Baptists
* Southern Baptist Convention
* Southern Baptists of Texas
* Sovereign Grace Baptists
* Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
* Union D'Eglises Baptistes Francaises Au Canada
* United American Free Will Baptist Church (Colored)
* United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
* United Baptists
* United Free Will Baptist
* World Baptist Alliance

* Pentecostals
* Abundant Life Worship Centers
* Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
* Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
* Apostolic Church of Pentecost of Canada
* Apostolic Faith Church
* Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
* Assemblies of God
* Christ Gospel Churches International
* Christian Congregation of Brazil
* Church of God (Charleston, Tennessee)
* Church of God (Cleveland)
* Church of God by Faith
* Church of God in Christ
* Church of God Mountain Assembly
* Church of God of Prophecy
* Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
* Elim Pentecostal Church
* Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas
* God is Love Pentecostal Church
* International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
* International Pentecostal Holiness Church
* Open Bible Standard Churches (association of autonomous churches)
* Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
* Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
* Pentecostal Church of God
* Redeemed Christian Church of God
* United Holy Church of America
* United Pentecostal Church International

* African Independent Churches
* Church of the Lord
* Kimbanguist Church
* Zion Christian Church

* Messianic Judaism
* Chosen People Ministries
* Jews for Jesus
* Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

* United / Uniting Churches
* China Christian Council
* Church of Bangladesh
* Church of Pakistan
* Church of North India
* Church of South India
* Evangelical Church in Germany
* United Church of Canada
* United Church of Christ
* Uniting Church in Australia

Restorationism

* Restoration Movement (Stone-Campbell)
* Disciples of Christ
* Christian Church
* Churches of Christ

* Millerite
* Sunday Adventists
* Advent Christian Church
* Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)
* Church of the Blessed Hope
* Primitive Advent Christian Church

* Seventh Day Adventists
* Branch Davidians
* Branch Seventh Day Adventists
* Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church
* Davidian Seventh-Day Adventist Association
* General Association of Davidian Seventh-Day Adventists
* People’s Christian Church
* Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement
* Seventh-day Adventist General Conference (Seventh-day Adventist Church)
* The Registry

* Church of God Adventists
* Assembly of God in Christ Jesus
* Associated Churches, Inc.
* Associates for Scriptural Knowledge
* Biblical Church of God
* Body of Christ Church of God
* Church of God (Anadarko)
* Church of God (Jesus Christ the Head) (UNICO)
* Church of God (O’Brien)
* Church of God (Philadelphia Era)
* Church of God (Sabbatarian)
* Church of God (Seventh Day, Salem, West Virginia)
* Church of God Evangelical Association
* Church of God’s Truth
* Church of the Great God
* Congregation of God, Seventh Day
* Congregation of God
* Congregation of Yah
* Foundation for Biblical Research
* Foundation of Life Fellowship
* General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day)
* General Council of the Churches of God
* Global Church of God
* Harmony of Life Fellowship
* International Church of God (ICG)
* Philadelphia Church of God
* Restoration Church of God
* Seventh-Day Church of God
* The Eternal Church of God
* The Pure Truth
* Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God)
* Twentieth Century Church of God (Pennsylvania)
* Twentieth Century Church of God
* United Biblical Church of God
* United Church of God
* United Seventh-Day Brethren
* Universal Church of God
* World Insight International
* Worldwide Church of God

* Bible Student Groups
* Back to the Bible Way
* Christian Believers Conference
* Christian Bible Students Association
* Christian Millenial Fellowship
* Christian Prophets of Jehovah
* Dawn Bible Students Association
* Epiphany Bible Students Association
* Independent Bible Students
* Jehovah's Witnesses
* Laodicean Home Missionary Movement
* Layman’s Home Missionary Movement
* Lord Our Righteousness (Life Support)
* Pastoral Bible Institute
* Philanthropic Assembly

* Sacred Name Groups
* Assemblies of YHWHHOSHUA
* Assemblies of Yah
* Assemblies of Yahvah
* Assemblies of Yahweh (Easton Rapids, Michigan)
* Assemblies of Yahweh
* Assemblies of the Called Out Ones of Yah
* Bible Study Association
* Church of God (Jerusalem)
* House of Yahweh (Abilene, Texas)
* House of Yahweh (Odessa, Texas)
* Missionary Dispensary Bible Research
* New Life Fellowship
* Scripture Research Association
* Workers Together with Elohim
* Yahweh’s Assembly of Messiah

* British Israelism
* Anglo-Saxon Federation of America
* British-Israel-World Federation (Canada), Inc.
* Calvary Fellowship, Inc.
* Christian Conservative Churches of America
* Christian Identity Church
* Christian Research
* Church of Israel
* Church of Jesus Christ Christian (Aryan Nations)
* Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord
* House of Prayer for All People
* Kingdom Identity Ministries
* LaPorte Church of Christ
* Ministry of Christ Church
* National Association of Kingdom Evangelicals
* New Christian Crusade Church
* Prophetic Herald Ministry
* Remnant of Israel
* Tabernacle of the Phineas Priesthood

* Southcottites
* Israelite House of David
* Israelite House of David as Reorganized by Mary Purnell
* Yahweh’s New Covenant Assembly

* Other Adventists
* Christadelphians
* Christian Nations – Eagle Warriors
* Church of God (Reinersten)
* Kingdom of God on Earth Within Man
* Remnant Church
* Restored Israel of Yahweh
* Shiloh True Light Church of Christ
* Star of Truth Foundation
* True Church

* Latter-day Saints or Mormons
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
* Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
* Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
* Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
* Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
* Restored Church of Jesus Christ
* True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days
* Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)

Non-Trinitarian

* Arians
* Iglesia ni Cristo
* Molokan
* Unification Church
* Doukhobors
* Unitarians

New Thought Churches

* Divine Science
* Church of Christ, Scientist
* Religious Science
* Unity Chu

http://ww w.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Denominations

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

rod,

I seriously doubt all those churches have "thousands of conflicting" doctrines. Those are just church names which people consider denominations.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.

So Who Is Right?

rod..

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..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

David have a look at the Catholic group. Those arent't just names. There is a huge difference between Old Catholic Church and Roman Catholic Church. The Old Catholic Church is not even "Catholic".

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

Ah! They are just church names. Do you mean like "Assemblies of God" and "United Pentecostal Church International"? No conflict there...not!

Ok, David, allow me to use one of your tactics. You said that those are only names and considered denominations by people. You also said that there aren't "thousands of conflicting doctrines". Well, let me pull a "David" here:

Prove it! Do you think that instead of a "thousands" there might be a hundred?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

rod,

I ask you to prove it!. Make a chart, see who belives in salvation by faith alone/rapture/etc. and see if there are really "thousands of conflicting doctrines". See how many cults think alike.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.

BTW, that list (above) should have been compiled by doctrine, not by name. It is obviously deceptive to think that denominations with closely related names would share non-conflicting doctrines.

Ah! David, before you start connecting the dots in making an attempt to fracture the Catholic Church, be sure that you understand the doctrine of that church. And, in so doing, you will concede to the assertion that "schism" is the fatal flaw of the Great Reformation and the Protestant Movement. (Just a little friendly advice.)

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

rod, Catholicism is not as united as you think. This is just pure propaganda by Catholics and their "100 billion" denominations claim. I say 100 billion because the numbers go up everyday they are used by Roman Apologetics.

Well if you won't do it rod, I will. I will make a spreadsheet and just visit these churches sites (if available) and see how many conflicting doctrines there really are.

I have no misrepresentations or "misconceptions" of the Roman Church. I deny it for the simple reason it preaches another Jesus.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.

I'll make a deal with you David. I won't make such expansive assertions without proof (as I do). And, you don't make such outlandish accusations without proof. I have provided a list that seems to send smoke across the countryside; where there is smoke, there is fire.

This thread continues to have a narrow aim on the Catholic Church while the other "denominations" scatter about freely without fear of even a stray crossfire hitting them. But, of course, what do they have to fear? They are Protestant and as long the they can find a hiding place behind the cover of the Catholic Church, their Protestant cohorts wouldn't dare shoot their own, even if they are a little "schismatic".

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

rod,

This thread aims at Roman Catholicism because in my view it is the most dangerous cult there is. I have others on my cult list, but I see no reasons (even though I should start to attract more visitors) to talk about Mormon issues when there are no Mormons around.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.

Yes, I can understand your perspective. Can you understand how Catholicism is viewed by non-Catholics and how I've mentioned that Protestants unite against the Church, even if Protestants have conflicts in doctrine amongst themselves? The Catholic Church is the big dog everyone runs to kick. Now, I'm speaking in view of the overall picture, not this forum.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

rod,

Don't flatter yourself. If you noticed I don't agree with alot of things Kevin says. It just looks like we gang up on Catholics. Although Catholicism is a dangerous cult to some, it is NOT the only one spoken against. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, Atheists, Adventists, Hindus etc.. get caught in the "fire" too.

Your favorite and most published author Jack Chick doesn't make money from Bashing the Roman Church; Those "anti-Catholic" tracts are just a small percentage of his hundreds of tracts that deal with other topics like Islam, the Rapture, etc.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.

David: "rod, Catholicism is not as united as you think."

rod: Let me reveal this about my affinity with the "Church".
I trust and believe in the early Church that Peter and the Apostles unified under the name "Catholic Church". I am confident that you and Kevin would have the same trust and belief. Surely, you would not deny the Church during that time, yes?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

Yes, I know the name came later, but the "church" was the prototype. I refer to the prototype--Jesus Christ.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

rod,

The Early Church was not (and never) Roman Catholic.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.

Well, they sure believed the same things then as they do now. They called themselves Catholic. Their succession of bishops is recorded in antiquity, leading into the present day Catholic Church.

You are dead wrong, David. They WERE Catholic from the get-go. You have already claimed that anyone holding to Catholic teachings is not Christian. I have shown you that St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Clement, Ignatius, Athanasius were Catholic, all of whom you claim were not even Christian.

You are off the beaten path of our forefathers.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 23, 2003.

rod,

The reason we have ALL of these man made denominations is because they don't want to submit to the authority of Jesus. They would rather make their own creed or catechism and that is why we have all of this confusion in religion. Satan does NOT want people to find out the truth, that is also another reason why there are all of these denominations.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 25, 2003.

Kevin,

Is the denomination of the church of christ the one true church?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 25, 2003.

Hi Kevin.

After reading your last reply, I get the feeling that the Biblical reference to the Tower of Babel and the end result of that incident is what we now have today in the many different denominations. The only problem is that you have not made that inference. Would you consider making the connection that I have made in regards to the "Babel" issue?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 26, 2003.

In other words, that confusion started a long time ago. This is why we so many interpretations. Basically, man is confused in everything he believes , unless he has the Holy Spirit to guide him.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 26, 2003.

rod,

Please check out this website below.

Identifying the Church of the New Testament

After reading the link above, there will be NO doubt as to how one can identify the Church of the New Testament.

One more thing, the Holy Spirit is NOT required to personally indwell someone in order for them to understand God's word. The word of God is easy enough to understand if someone is sincerely seeking the truth and wants to OBEY ALL of God's commandments in order to be saved.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

Another thing, there is NO such thing as a Catholic-Christian. There NEVER has been, and NEVER will be. You can rest assured that according to the word of God, every Catholic who has ever lived is NOT spending time in purgatory, but is spending time being tormented until judgment day when they will be cast into the lake of fire. The reason for this is clear, they have NOT obeyed the gospel, NO not one of them has done this in order to be saved.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

Kevin wrote:

"The word of God is easy enough to understand if someone is sincerely seeking the truth and wants to OBEY ALL of God's commandments in order to be saved. "

Well, I wish that were 100% accurate. I don't believe Paul(Apostle) would agree, considering the big time hassles he had with the different churches he had to correct. I've read how the church in Corinth couldn't quite get things straight.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 29, 2003.

Kevin wrote:

"One more thing, the Holy Spirit is NOT required to personally indwell someone in order for them to understand God's word."

If your statement is also accurate, then why are we suppose to pray before reading Scriputres? I am sure that by praying first, we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding. Also, what about those "baby food" Christians and "meat eaters" Christians? There are many levels of discernment of the Scriptures, yes?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 29, 2003.

Kevin, I am very positive that David, Gail, you and myself are very "sincere" about seeking the truth. I am even more confident about our obedience to God. And, if it were up to "sincerity" as the prerequisite for Salvation, we are pretty well saved. But, it isn't that simple. I'm sure that I have not been the only person on this planet who has struggled in finding the truth. The truth may be easy for some, I wish it were that easy for me. I still have to rely on my personal faith, as you do too.

rod..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 29, 2003.

rod,

Please tell me what praying has anything to do with a direct indwelling of the Holy Spirit???

I'm sure that I have not been the only person on this planet who has struggled in finding the truth.

People may be sincere as you call it in searching for the truth, but the problem is that when they find it, they do NOT want to do what God tells them to do!!!

What is the truth rod?

Please tell me what is God's power to salvation?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

Please tell me what praying has anything to do with a direct indwelling of the Holy Spirit??? The Bible teaches me to have faith in God, not man. Man can steer us wrong. We must have some divine guidance, yes? How else can we get that guidance unless we ask for it--prayer.

I'm sure that I have not been the only person on this planet who has struggled in finding the truth.
People may be sincere as you call it in searching for the truth, but the problem is that when they find it, they do NOT want to do what God tells them to do!!!
Yes, I agree, but you used the word "sincere" and I was only echoing your use of the word.

What is the truth rod?
Their is the basic truth: Jesus born of the Immaculate Conception, Jesus is God, Jesus was sacrificed for our Salvation, Jesus Christ died, was buried, and arose in fulfillment of the Scriptures, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, and Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead.
Doctrine gets in the way because man is confused about how to worship Him.

Please tell me what is God's power to salvation? God's power? You mean God's grace over us who accept Jesus as our Saviour.

How about if Kevin would answer to some of my concerns instead of trying to sidetrack me?

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 29, 2003.

rod,

You wrote, "The Bible teaches me to have faith in God, not man. Man can steer us wrong. We must have some divine guidance, yes? How else can we get that guidance unless we ask for it--prayer."

Yes, we do need "divine guidance", and yes we do need to pray, but the Holy Spirit does NOT miraculously give, steer us or help us outside of the word of God.

Please check out this website below:

False Ideas about the Holy Spirit

You wrote, "Yes, I agree, but you used the word "sincere" and I was only echoing your use of the word."

Very well.

I wrote, "Please tell me what is God's power to salvation?"

To which you replied, "God's power? You mean God's grace over us who accept Jesus as our Saviour."

No, I mean what is God's power to salvation?

You wrote, "How about if Kevin would answer to some of my concerns instead of trying to sidetrack me?"

rod, I am not trying to sidetrack you, I am trying to get you to come to an understanding of the truth.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 30, 2003.

If I am to pinpoint the one significant "power" that God has provided for Salvation, then it must be this one--Jesus Christ.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 30, 2003.

I have a feeling that your answer would be the Holy Bible. I would rather consider the Incarnate Word--(again) Jesus Christ. If not for Jesus Christ, we would not have Salvation. God gave his only begotten Son...John 3:15.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 30, 2003.

Or, are you referring to Revelations 19:1-2?

God has Salvation, glory, and power because His judgements are true.

rod..

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.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 30, 2003.

1 Corinthians 1:18-19

18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart"(English Standard Version)

(End Quote)

I suppose that you are more than likely referring to the above Scriptures in your query, Kevin.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 30, 2003.

rod,

No, this is what I was referring to:

Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek."

It is the GOSPEL that is God's power to salvation.

What is the gospel rod?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 03, 2003.

Ah! the Good News for Salvation. Jesus Christ.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 03, 2003.

rod,

It is more than you state: "the Good News for Salvation. Jesus Christ".

The gospel according to the word of God is as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,".

The gospel = the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Does one have to obey the gospel in order to be saved?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 03, 2003.

its so funny that i can compare a member of the catholic church to a person in an abusive relationship. Everyone else sees the problem except the person in the abusive relationship. Just like the Laestadian Lutheran church------CULT!!!!!!!!!!

-- theguy (Deadmilkmanclone@yahoo.com), September 11, 2003.

Kevin,

I believe that I had already answered earlier in this thread:

What is the truth rod?

[There] is the basic truth: Jesus born of the Immaculate Conception, Jesus is God, Jesus was sacrificed for our Salvation, Jesus Christ died, was buried, and arose in fulfulment of the Scriptures, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, and Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead. Doctrine gets in the way because man is confused about how to worship Him.

Is "theguy" pointing at me? Am I being called a "Catholic"?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 11, 2003.

What is "Laestadian Lutheran"?

I wouldn't know if I was one or not.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 12, 2003.

I do not agree with many of Luther's ideas. I also do not necessarily agree with hierarchy. I do not agree with "Sola" anything. Some "Traditions" are acceptable. I do agree with "congregational" worship and Bible discussion, but not "congregational" theology. There is one truth and only one truth, whether a congregation may adhere to it or not.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 12, 2003.

"I do not agree with "Sola" anything"

You don't agree with Solo Christo? Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, how can you not agree with this?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 12, 2003.

I believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. And, I believe this as the Holy Trinity, so in this respect I guess it would be fair to consider Him in the "Sola" context, because He is all three and not seperate. But, as far as doctrine goes, there is no "Sola" anything. Martin Luther's ideas of sola scriptura, sola fiel, and sola gratia have their limitations. I hope that we are not limited by man's thinking.

rod..

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-- Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 13, 2003.

Intriguing entry by "theguy" - What are your sources and where have you gotten your information regarding the laestadian lutheran church? I belong to the organization, and I can assure you it is no CULT - (such vehemence in that statement!) One definition of cult is "a particular system of worship", so yes, that rings true. The main message of the LLC is to preach repentance and the forgiveness of sins to anyone who wishes to believe. A simple, yet difficult message for people to accept and understand.

-- Wendy (smileytraveller@yahoo.com), September 13, 2004.