If not in the "Holy Eucharist", then where is the "real presence" of God?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003

Answers

I would be very interested in your responses to this question. Mainly, nobody can prove that Christ is not in the Holy Eucharist and I wonder how they will prove that Christ' presence is in something other than the Holy Eucharist.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

rod,

If not in the "Holy Eucharist", then where is the "real presence" of God?

Please check out this link below:

What are Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation?

Mainly, nobody can prove that Christ is not in the Holy Eucharist and I wonder how they will prove that Christ' presence is in something other than the Holy Eucharist.

Christ dwells in us through FAITH and NOT in some so called Eucharist. Ephesians 3:17 states, " that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith ;"

How does one get faith??? Romans 10:17 states, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

The Lord's Supper, or "Holy Eucharist" as you erroneously call it does NOT have the real presence of Jesus for this Supper is only observed as a Memorial to His death for 1 Corinthians 11:26 states, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.

Hi Kevin.

I like the way you keep a non-threatening tone. Uh, "erroneous" is still up for debate, as I'm sure true Catholics would not consider themselves to be in error.

I do believe that God is present in many things of His creation.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

rod,

The real presence of God is in the Christian, Our heart is his temple.

“love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Galatians 5:22, 23.

Does the Eucharist possess any of these qualities?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.

rod,

You wrote, "Uh, "erroneous" is still up for debate, as I'm sure true Catholics would not consider themselves to be in error."

Catholics may not consider themselves to be in error, but according to God's word, they do in fact ERR for there is NO real presence in the Eucharist and even if there was, Catholics do NOT practice what Jesus stated because He PLAINLY stated in John 6:54 that one MUST "Eat His flesh" AND "Drink His Blood" in order to have eternal life. Catholics do NOT "Drink His Blood" so they are NOT doing what Jesus commanded.

You wrote, "I do believe that God is present in many things of His creation." The evidence of God can be seen in creation because God said in Hebrews 11:3, "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.

As I wrote on another thread

Parallel Verses:

"Every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:54).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.

rod,

What was "the mystery kept secret since the world began"??? (Romans 16:25). This mystery is revealed in the pages of the NT. Do you know the answer to this question?

Note: This is something that might help you understand that there is NO real presence in the Lord's Supper or Eucharist as you call it.

David,

In keeping with the mystery spoken of in Romans 16:25, please note the end of Romans 16:26 which states, "for obedience to the faith".

This mystery was made manifest according to the commandment of God for us to be obedient to the faith. Please review these passages and re-think your faith only view of salvation. The apostles were called through Jesus Christ, "Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name," (Romans 1:5).

A great many of the priests were also, "obedient to the faith (Acts 6:7).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.

Spread the Word!

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

rod,

Is that your answer, "Spread the Word"???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.

We are told to have faith, so that is not a mystery. I first thought the "mystery of faith". I do believe that we are to teach the Gospel to all the soul of the world. I think this is the mystery revealed in Romans 16:25.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

Christ is drawing a line. He says, "He who does not eat my flesh and drink my blood has no part in me." The crowd splits; half of them cannot believe He would speak such nonsense. 'Why, it's cannabalism.' The other half follow their Lord though they cannot comprehend what He is saying. "Where else would we go, Oh Lord? You have the words of eternal life."

David and Kevin, Which crowd are you in?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 19, 2003.

rod, Gail,

Some things to consider about John chapter 6. In this chapter, we find the Jews continue to resist Jesus' claims of being divine. They challenge Him to prove who he is by bringing down manna from heaven as Moses had done. Jesus uses their reference to the manna, the food which was essential for their survival and life in the desert and applies it figuratively to himself. He answers, "I am the bread of life." Jesus uses eating in exchange to represent believing. This is consistent all the way through his illustration.

The day before he fed 5,000 and proclaims that He can give "food which endures to eternal life."

Jn.6:26 Describes those that came after Jesus because their stomachs were filled. Jesus tells them not to labor for the food that perishes but for the food that endures to everlasting life? This resumes a dispute with the Jewish authorities about who Jesus is. They were already plotting to kill him, because he was "making Himself equal with God."

V.28-29 "What must we do to do the works of God?" Jesus answers: "This is the work of God. That you believe in Him whom He sent." They insist on a sign (today Catholics ask for the same thing except there is no proof for theirs, they must take it by blind faith)

V.31-33 The bread Moses gave was not the true bread, you don't eat it. "The bread of God is He Who comes down from Heaven, and gives life to the World." Did Jesus body come from heaven, or did God who is spirit come?

V.35 "I am that bread. He who believes in Me will never hunger or thirst." Notice He does NOT say "He who eats..." will not hunger or thirst. He is speaking to those who reject him as the source of eternal life. He uses bread as an analogy to illustrate mankind's need to believe in him. Jesus never relates this to wine. The eating of Christ, who is "the living bread which came down from heaven" (6:51), is NO MORE A PHYSICAL ACT than the eating of "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God;" it was offering spiritual truth to the people that did not understand. This you also do not understand.

V.36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe." Notice He is pointing to Himself, that is present among them, and He scolds them for not believing. It is hard to believe what you don't understand.

V.41-42 The Jews wonder at His statement about coming down from Heaven. Thinking He is speaking of His body.

V. 47 "He who believes in Me has everlasting life." Here Jesus points to himself as the source, by believing NOT eating.

V.49 "the fathers ate the bread in the wilderness and they all died," in v.50 he then points to Himself as the solution for death.

V. 51 "I am the living bread which came from heaven." He is pointing to himself as the one who is God, that has eternal life to give. Notice He says in the present tense He is the bread. Jesus then predicts, "The bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh." The Catholic Church interprets this as a promise of the Eucharist. Yet the context has nothing to do with the Last Supper or physical bread. He is going to give His flesh for the life of the world. WHEN? At the cross. HOW MANY TIMES? Once. Not over and over on the altars.

Earlier, Jesus had identified himself as the bread of life. Now he says he will give the bread, that is himself, his own flesh, for the life of the world. Many other times near the end of his life he made similar predictions.

V. 52-53 unless you are to eat His flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you.? the Jews begin to argue with one another, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" Because of their antagonism for Jesus ,they not only rejected His teaching but lacked discernment to understand when He was using an illustration.

This is not to be mistaken for flesh of a wafer coming from a bakery of mans hands nor grapes squeezed by men. It is his flesh and blood. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves." Rather than teach the necessity of receiving Holy Communion, it speaks of the necessity of faith in Christ. If you do not trust in his payment for sin on the cross, you will not have eternal life in yourself.

V. 54 he says, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." Moments earlier he had said, "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." Notice that the results are IDENTICAL in both verses: eternal life and resurrection. But although in the one we must eat and drink, in the other we behold and must believe. The results are identically the same, as are the actions to obtain them are also: eating is a substitute for believing. His FIGURATIVE statements are easily understood when read in the context of the other verses in this teaching.

V.55, he states, "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink." To make this as a teaching that Christ is bodily present in the host is to change the focus interpreting it OUT OF CONTEXT. Here again, Jesus is emphasizing that HE is the source of real spiritual life and nourishment.

V.57 "...so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me" Certainly Jesus is NOT speaking of a wafer that would be produced later but symbolically of Himself who is able to give life.

V.58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- Not as your fathers ate manna and died..." (He is NOT physical food but spiritual). Jesus had talked about the manna that fell in the wilderness which fed them physically and they died, but that He was the true bread who came from heaven that if they ate would never die. No one would say that all of Israel ate Christ for 40 years 1,500 years before He was born, nor is He saying that he would become a communion wafer later on and if this bread was to be taken they would never die.

He is explaining to partake of his sacrifice in a spiritual sense that would save the soul from separation, which had occurred 2,000 years ago.

V.63 "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing. The words I speak are Spirit, it is they that are life." Nothing could be CLEARER it is not literal but figurative, He used a natural example to illustrate a spiritual truth. We have seen that "to eat" is "to believe," and that the giving of his flesh refers to his death on the cross. And so, "to eat his flesh" or "to drink his blood" would be to trust in the sacrifice of his life. It is to rely upon his death on the cross as the payment for our sins. This interpretation fits the context of the whole teaching. By the sacrifice of his life, Jesus became the Savior of the world, he is the source of eternal life NOT by the Eucharist. The savior is a person and salvation is NOT a thing that was created, this is the intent of the discourse.

The idea of a wafer that becomes Jesus each time it is baked is refuted by none other than Jesus Himself. If we read further in v. 57- 58 He states the bread is Himself, His body not a wafer baked in a bakery that will become Him. We must distinguish the difference between the substance (who He was) and the symbol He uses to describe Himself by and the symbol taken afterwards (the communion that was the Passover).

The the same language in John 6 is used when He takes the bread in blessing and says take eat this is my body. It was a symbol of a spiritual meaning that the Jews practiced for 1,500 years. They knew exactly what He meant, the Passover. Kept in the context of the Passover service, we know that throughout the ceremony there is a consistent symbolism used to mean, "This represents that." The salt water represents the salty tears and the Red Sea. The Charoseth represents the brick mortar. The parsley represents Israel in the springtime of her nationhood. The horseradish represents the bitterness of slavery, etc. The middle matzah of the three (unleavened bread) represents His body and the third cup in the service represents His blood as it is the cup of redemption. In the context of the Passover, that is all that was intended, the word we find throughout the Passover observance is "remember." This is a reference to the Passover that they were celebrating for 1,500 years to remember this meal as the deliverance from the bondage of their slavery in Egypt.

Now, Jesus applies this to Himself in their deliverance from the bondage of sin. Paul later states about the communion 1 Cor.11:24 "and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me" in the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." It no longer was applied to freedom from slavery in Egypt but freedom from sin. We remember this by what He has done by His death that took place only ONCE (for all) and we remember by looking forward to His promise of His return.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.

rod,

You wrote, "I do believe that we are to teach the Gospel to all the sould of the world. I think this is the mystery revealed in Romans 16:25."

No, that is not correct. Colossians 1:26 states, "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints."

Is revealed in the next verse (27), "To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

How does Christ get in us? Eating some wafer is NOT the answer.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.

Kevin, I have written something very similar to what you have submitted in this thread. Uh, Moses did not give them the manna; God sent it down. Basically, I can accept the "symbolic" tone, as well.

When one takes the Eucharist, they are owning up to Christ' sacrifice.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

What is the Book of John 6:25-71 about?

Jesus is in Capernaum speaking with the Jews. They were surprised to see Jesus there from across the Sea/Lake of Galilee. Jesus told them (Jews)that their presence was not for the signs, but for the fill of bread they had eaten. The Jews were motivated by food, not by the Gospel. The Jews were not entirely interested in the "Son of Man" and had no concept of God sending Jesus to them for salvation.

The Jews then became curious and asked how they may" perform the work of God"(NAB). Jesus told them to have faith in God. The Jews then wanted proof just like the "Manna", which was proof of God. Jesus told them that the bread was not by Moses; it was sent by God. God sent the bread of "life".

The Jews wanted the bread of life. Jesus told them that He is the bread of life. Jesus made it clear that they would never hunger, thirst, or die from this bread. Jesus was talking about eternal life, not mortal life. The Jews did not believe Jesus was the bread of life. The Jews could only make the connection that Jesus was of Joseph and Mary, not of God.

Jesus made it very clear that through FAITH in Him could they have eternal life. Jesus told them that their forefathers ate the Manna and yet died. Death in this case means not having FAITH in Jesus, the Messiah, nor God. Jesus then makes it clear that they must EAT this bread--Jesus-- from Heaven sent by God. "If anyone eats this bread he shall live forever; the bread I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world" (NAB).

The Jews are still thinking in terms of the mortal life and desires of the flesh, namely: hunger. So, Jesus makes it even more precise to the point of being facecious: (I will not quote the NAB because of its doctrinal bias.) "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."(English Standard Version). The Catholic versions of the Bible, generally, do not use the word "unless", which makes a BIG difference in the interpretation of this chapter. Jesus is actually telling the Jews that they have no FAITH in Jesus as their Saviour. Let me put this another way. I don't believe that Elvis ever lived, UNLESS I actually become Elvis in the flesh. Then, I just might believe that Elvis did exist. The Jews can only believe in the bread they ate, including the Manna. There is no way that they are going to believe in Jesus, UNLESS they actually eat Him alive. That's the only way that they will have a presence with God. The only way is through Jesus and only if God sends them to Him.

Now, why am I writing about this chapter about the bread of life? Because, I cannot find an explanation for , you guessed it, "TRANSUBSTANTIATION". I don't believe that this chapter in John justifies the Catholic belief that Jesus has been transformed into the flesh/substance from a wheat wafer. John 6 is teaching us about FAITH. We must believe in Jesus being sent by God to be sacrificed for our SALVATION. I cannot see any other purpose for John 6 in conjuctions with "transubstantiation", but I do need to know how it is "transubstantiation". I have asked, but I have yet to get the answer that will allow me to understand. This has always been my stumbling block.

I am just a man. My interpretations are just from a man that I am. I could very easily be called a "heretic", but it is only because I am hones

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

the last sentence should have read...

"...but it is only because I am honest in my thinking."

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

This is why I've made comments about how easy it is to understand the symbolism of John 6:54, but to understand it literally is the journey that will truly reveal truths that are far beyond our present understandings. I want to go beyond and touch the face of God as in the poem "Flight". Isn't this every man's desire, to walk with God, to see God, to speak with God, to be with God?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

rod,

The reason you can't find a explanation (only a Roman one) for "TRANSUBSTANTIATION" is because this is a false doctrine made by the Catholic Church that only has ONE explanation; it is a false doctrine.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.

Well, Colossian 1:27 tells it all--God is in each one of us who has FAITH. Of course, the Mormons take this a tad further and claim that they will actually be gods one day. I believe St. Francis of Asisis had the same understanding and also saw God in His creations (no, not the Mormon view, he had the Biblical view and the Catholic understanding of it).

One day, if we are still around, you all will know my true beliefs, so everybody needs to stay nice with each other and not have pre-conceived notions until all the cards are on the table. My worse torment is that I'm sitting smack dab in the middle of the fence and I can't seem to settle on either side. This is a terrible place to be.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

rod,

All I know is that your looking for the truth as you claim. I don't know what your view of salvation is though, or on the rapture or speaking in tongues.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.

Gail

I think you might understand my current "dilemma".

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2003.

Yes, Rod, I do. Somewhere scripture says, "I would rather be a doorkeeper in the House of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."

You know where the House of God is. Be content as a doorkeeper . . . for now!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 20, 2003.

Thanks, Gail.

I needed that.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 20, 2003.

The "House of God" as Gail stated, is most certainly NOT the Catholic Church for this FALSE Church is far removed from "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." For they "deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."(Jude 3-4).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 21, 2003.

Where does it say in the Bible that there is ONE faith, ONE God, and ONE baptism. Also were in the Bible does it say that man (men and women)were made just a little lower than the angels.

-- (hmrev@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

Where in the Bible does it say, I am the way, the TRUTH and the light.

-- (hmrev@yahoo.com), August 22, 2003.

hmrev says "Where does it say in the Bible that there is ONE faith, ONE God, and ONE baptism"

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:4-6)

hmrev says "Also were in the Bible does it say that man (men and women)were made just a little lower than the angels."

"Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:" (Hebrews 2:7 KJV)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.

hmrev says "Where in the Bible does it say, I am the way, the TRUTH and the light."

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - (John 14:6) by Jesus Christ.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.