If the Church is not persecuting gays then why are there movements to rid the Church of gay priests? What is wrong with being gay and a priest?

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003

Answers

Homosexuality is a disordered condition. I believe that the Church wants good healthy priests.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), August 06, 2003.

Since homosexual acts constitute an objectively grave moral evil, and God's Church has taught that divinely revealed truth from its inception, and will continue to teach it until the end of time, priests therefore, who are official representatives of the Church, must be in a position to preach that truth without compromise whenever necessary. Would you send an unreformed alcoholic to counsel people concerning the proper way to deal with alcohol abuse? Would you place a divorced, remarried Catholic in charge of Pre-Cana instruction? Of course, it is entirely possible that a priest who is not homosexual may still fall victim to a worldly liberal mentality, and consequently downplay the seriousness of homosexual acts. But let's face it - one who is openly practicing a homosexual lifestyle, or openly supportive of it, is not in a position to offer correct moral guidance to others, and that is a necessary function of a priest. As for priests who suffer from homosexual tendencies but recognize them as temptations to evil, and live a chaste lifestyle in spite of those tendencies, there is no reason why they would be unable to offer valid counseling on moral issues. Besides, no-one would even know that such priests suffer from such temptations. Therefore it is those who openly support, practice or approve objective evil who are a danger to the spiritual health of others, and the Church is rightly taking steps to avoid placing such individuals in positions where they can do predictable serious damage..

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 06, 2003.

I don't understand why this is seen as a complicated issue. If priests are homosexual, an act which is utterly condemned in the bible, then what prevents them from breaking the other rules and act as they want and become priests of satan instead of priests of God? How could one become a priest studiying about the bible and dedicating his life to teach others the ways of God, and break his laws at the same time? This is absolute nonsense. This happens in the Anglical church only as far as I can see, but I think you know how that church formed as a result of a pervert King. They can change the rules whenever they want because they want to do things as they wish. This time, history made a pervert repeat of itself.

What is wrong with being gay and a priest? What is wrong with being a priest and a killer and a liar and one who does all sorts of bad things? A priest is the holy man of God who devotes his life for the sake of others and for God. The notion that there is nothing wrong with being gay and a priest/christian is so ridiculous, it doesn't make the least bit of sense. I believe that there is not one homosexual priest in the universal catholic church. "The church" represents the univeral church - catholic church. A church or churches, which seperated from the universal church for their satisfaction, is different.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

I'm appalled at the hate-filled & ignorant replies you've received, not to mention the incredilby sloppy "logic" (to greatly stretch the term in this case."

I don't at all endorse homosexual "acts" but I am able to distinguish between them and the inborn homosexual "orientation" -- AS DOES THE CHURCH!!!!

The fact that someone is a homosexual does NOT mean that he or she practices a "gay lifestyle," nor that she or he will necessarilly be unchaste if permitted to become nun or a priest. People who are born with a homosexual orientation should not be despised or rejected, since they did not choose that orientation. They should be accepted by all members of the Church with love and compassion, as the CHURCH ITSELF teaches.

ALL of us all born with weaknesses that make us susceptible to temptation & sin: it is the human condition. It is a fact of mortality. It is the basis of the struggle that each of us engages in for the duration of our lives. However hateful any of us deems homosexual acts to be, we are called to hate the SIN --- NOT the sinner!!

One last point & an example from life: One of the first casualties of 9-11 was Fr. Mychal Judge, a Franciscan priest & the CHaplain of the NYC Fire Department. He was killed at the WTC by falling debris from one of the Towers as he was giving Extreme Unction to a firefighter who was killed when someone who leaped from the building fell on him. You may remember the photograph of Fr. Myke's body being carried by four firefighters to a nearby Catholic Church, where they lay him on the altar, indicating the love & respect with which he was regarded throughout the Fire Department. Fr. Myke, even before 9-11 had devoted himself for decades, lovingly, conscientiously & joyfully to his priestly duties. He spent thousands of hours counseling & comforting the families of the passengers lost aboard Flight 800 (which some may recall exploded over Long Island Sound shortly after take-off, killing all aboard), Catholic & non-Catholic alike, and was later chosen by those familes to preside at the memorial service they held on the beach on the anniversary of that tragedy.

Fr. Myke was also a "recovering" alcoholic (FYI, Paul, there's no such thing, as a "reformed" alcoholic, because the struggle is unending; check with AA if you doubt me) who found a ministry not only in AA but among the homeless alcoholics of NYC's streets. He was well-known for giving the clothes off his own back to those in need.

Lastly (for this post, but not in his life), Fr. Myke was an admitted homosexual, though he lived a chaste life, faithful to his vows. So why, Paul, would anyone know? Because he realized that many homosexuals were engaged in deep struggles with the innate tendencies that they had been born with, so he revealed his own "Cross" to members of the group "Dignity," hoping that his own chastity would give them strength in seeking their own.

And by the way, knowing about both Fr. Myke's alcoholism & homosexuality, it was Cardinal Egan who led the celebration of Fr. Myke's Mass of Chrsitian Burial.

To paraphrase Abraham, "The notion that there is ANYTHING wrong with being gay and a priest/christian is so ridiculous, it doesn't make the least bit of sense." This world & our Church are better & richer for Fr. Myke.

-- Charlotte (charlotte6201964@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

Charlotte

you clearly haven't read Paul's post closely enough.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 06, 2003.

Tell me John what is a good healthy priest? Is one that is a drunk, healthy? Guess not. So we should get all of those priests because the church says that that is wrong. So maybe we should get rid of all the priests that have weaknesses. Oh wait. That would mean getting rid of all the priests. Wow what a thought.

Notice what I did not say. I did not say that the priest was a practicing homosexual. You just assumed that because of your bigotry towards homosexuals. I guess you have a bit of a weakness too. I guess that you wouldn't make a good priest.

And Paul, you assumed the same thing. You assumed that just because someone is gay means that they are also practicing. So since most priests are heterosexual does that mean that they are practicing heterosexuals? You have been preaching lately about how the Church hates the sin but loves the sinner. But didn't you just destroy that notion? You mistook the act for the person.

Let's be Catholic here. We accept all people.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

Scott,

Your relativistic arguments sound good relatively speaking...

HOWEVER, although in your mind a practicing homosexual is worse than an out of practice homosexual which is worse than a non practicing homosexual which is worse than a never practiced homosexual which is worse than an impotent homosexual alone on a deserted island although almost equal to a practicing homosexual in solitary confinement with a life prison term...

hmmm...

The truth is simple -- homosexuality is a no no... deal with it & accept it...

homosexuals choose to persecute themselves and defile thier bodies & souls -- homosexuality is sin -sin that can not be relatively negated into non sin...

--the truth/message is God's, the Church but messenger

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 06, 2003.

for once daniel and i agree about something, this is kind of scary...

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanadress.com), August 06, 2003.

"inborn homosexual "orientation""

? ? ? ?

Charlotte,

Where for art thou brain?

-- to follow your illogic:

inborn homosexual "orientation = inborn sin = sin...

we are ALL 'inborn' with original sin -do you not agree?

-do we all get a free pass -or is it just homosexuals?

--the truth cuts like a knife -much easier to cut the meat with a sharp knife -the word, rather than a spoon -man's logic...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 06, 2003.

Gee, Daniel, my brain is right where Cardinal Ratzinger's is: in my skull. And it works really, really well. Yours, sadly, does not.

On 10-01-86, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, under the auspices of Cardinal Ratzinger, issued a letter concerning homsexuals & homosexuality that was approved by Pope John-Paul II, who ordered it to be published. I've quoted a number of pertinent pargraphs here in full so that you & others can see that I'm not trying to create my own theology here, but that I am faithfully adhering to that enunciated by the Holy See in stating my views.

In case you have trouble reading, I'll boil it down for you:

1. Homosexual inclinations are NOT sinful

2. However, because homosexual ACTS are sinful, the homosexual orientation is "intrinsically disordered."

3. Malice towards homosexuals, in word OR in action is "deplorable," "deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs," and "reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society."

4. To assume "that the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive" is "demeaning and unfounded."

5. "Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life."

That's the gist of it Daniel. Now please, go to the Vatican's website to read the Letter in full (the webpage's supplied below), then, no doubt, you can straighten out Pope John-Paul & Cardinal Ratzinger is a jiffy. And maybe while you're at it you can persuade them to remove "pride" from the list of the Seven Deadly Sins, since the utter arrogance of your posts here suggests that you not only are particularly susceptible to that sin, but that you aren't faring too well in your struggles against it. It might be your only hope!

********************************** CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

(During an audience granted to the undersigned Prefect, His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, approved this Letter, adopted in an ordinary session of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and ordered it to be published.)

Given at Rome, 1 October 1986.

JOSEPH CARDINAL RATZINGER Prefect

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_c on_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html From section 3:

From Section 1:

"Explicit treatment of the problem was given in this Congregation's "Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics" of December 29, 1975. That document stressed the duty of trying to understand the homosexual condition and noted that culpability for homosexual acts should only be judged with prudence. At the same time the Congregation took note of the distinction commonly drawn between the homosexual condition or tendency and individual homosexual actions."

AND

"Although the particular INCLINATION of the homosexual person IS NOT A SIN, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." (emphasis added)

From section 7:

"Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self- giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent. As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one's own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood."

From section 10:

"It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law."

Section 11:

"It has been argued that the homosexual orientation in certain cases is not the result of deliberate choice; and so the homosexual person would then have no choice but to behave in a homosexual fashion. Lacking freedom, such a person, even if engaged in homosexual activity, would not be culpable. Here, the Church's wise moral tradition is necessary since it warns against generalizations in judging individual cases. In fact, circumstances may exist, or may have existed in the past, which would reduce or remove the culpability of the individual in a given instance; or other circumstances may increase it. What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God's liberating grace."

From section 12:

"What, then, are homosexual persons to do who seek to follow the Lord? Fundamentally, they are called to enact the will of God in their life by joining whatever sufferings and difficulties they experience in virtue of their condition to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross. That Cross, for the believer, is a fruitful sacrifice since from that death come life and redemption. While any call to carry the cross or to understand a Christian's suffering in this way will predictably be met with bitter ridicule by some, it should be remembered that this is the way to eternal life for all who follow Christ."

AND

"To celebrate the Paschal Mystery, it is necessary to let that Mystery become imprinted in the fabric of daily life. To refuse to sacrifice one's own will in obedience to the will of the Lord is effectively to prevent salvation. Just as the Cross was central to the expression of God's redemptive love for us in Jesus, so the conformity of the self-denial of homosexual men and women with the sacrifice of the Lord will constitute for them a source of self- giving which will save them from a way of life which constantly threatens to destroy them. Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life. As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God's personal call to them, they will be able to celebrate the Sacrament of Penance more faithfully and receive the Lord's grace so freely offered there in order to convert their lives more fully to his Way."

From section 13:

"The characteristic concern and good will exhibited by many clergy and religious in their pastoral care for homosexual persons is admirable, and, we hope, will not diminish. Such devoted ministers should have the confidence that they are faithfully following the will of the Lord by encouraging the homosexual person to lead a chaste life and by affirming that person's God-given dignity and worth."

From section 15:

"An authentic pastoral programme will assist homosexual persons at all levels of the spiritual life: through the sacraments, and in particular through the frequent and sincere use of the sacrament of Reconciliation, through prayer, witness, counsel and individual care. In such a way, the entire Christian community can come to recognize its own call to assist its brothers and sisters, without deluding them or isolating them."

Section 16:

"From this multi-faceted approach there are numerous advantages to be gained, not the least of which is the realization that a homosexual person, as every human being, deeply needs to be nourished at many different levels simultaneously. The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life."

Section 18:

"The Lord Jesus promised, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" (Jn. 8:32). Scripture bids us speak the truth in love (cf. Eph. 4:15). The God who is at once truth and love calls the Church to minister to every man, woman and child with the pastoral solicitude of our compassionate Lord. It is in this spirit that we have addressed this Letter to the Bishops of the Church, with the hope that it will be of some help as they care for those whose suffering can only be intensified by error and lightened by truth."

-- Charlotte (charlotte6201964@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

Daniel

Once again I am faced with someone who can't tell the difference between the person and the act. No kidding Dan. "A homosexual act is a no no." DUH!!!!!!!!!! But does that mean that all sinners are bad people? Is that not what we are saying? So don't ever trust a sinner. They will lead us astray. So I guess I can't trust anyone on this forum because we are all sinners. And what if someone on this forum was gay but they were giving great answers that straight people were giving? And what if this person also said that homosexual ACTS are wrong? And this person remaind celibate? Isn't that what the Church wants? A gay person to remain celibate? Notice what the Vatican does not say. That a celibate homosexual is not to be trusted and should be condemned.

Why has no one on this site answered my question? Why is the Church getting rid of gay priests? The Church says that the attraction is not wrong but the act of having sex with a person of the same sex is?

So please stop telling me that having homosexual sex is wrong. And answer the question. If a homosexual person just has to be celibate like every other priest then what is the big deal? Don't give me this crap about he might lead the flock astray. Can't a drunken priest do the same thing?

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

Scott,

Why has no one on this site answered my question?

people have, but you have been so busy blubbering that you missed the answer and bit back at something that arose much later...

Why is the Church getting rid of gay priests?

they ARENT, as you would understand if you took the time to read instead of being so defensive (a fact which leads me to believe your question was baited in the first place). the church is getting rid of OPENLY GAY priests... not gay priests in general. if a priest is homosexual, but celebate, then hes not going to be advertising his gay tendencies. however, if a priest is homosexual, proud of it, and enjoys advertising this fact, then he is most likely to get canned. that simple. an openly gay and proud of it priest is not the kind that is going to speak out against homosexual acts.

The Church says that the attraction is not wrong but the act of having sex with a person of the same sex is?

duh... yes. we are all tempted to sin, but only acting on that sin is an actual wrong. since you cant get that through church means, let me use a secular example: a theif is tempted to steal. this is not against the law. if he succumbs to that temptation then he breaks the law and thus it becomes wrong by being put into action. understand now?

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), August 06, 2003.

I think the problem is that the Church is NOT getting rid of gay priests. I wish they were.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), August 06, 2003.

"what is the big deal?"

hmmm... don't know? -please tell me...

--Basic question: -How does one know that another is homosexual?

-Do you see where this is going?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 06, 2003.

Charlotte,

Please show me where it states that the homosexuality is an "inborn homosexual "orientation"" and not a moral failing...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 06, 2003.

paul

Thanks, you explained what I was looking for in a better, more understanding fashion than the other. Instead of bringing up all the other nonsense that I already knew you enlightened me a bit. You said that they were getting rid of all the openly gay priests that are proud of it. Not all gay priests. My understanding of it was that they were getting rid of all gay priests. Thanks. That really helps.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

mmmmmmm.. let's see, after going around and around in all these circles, what IS the original question??? oh yeh, what's wrong with being gay and a priest. If a church {as in the Episcopalian current issue} ordains and supports an openly unrepentant gay bishop it sets a precedent for others and changes the rules, opening WIDE the door for Satan, it's sadly, that simple. I say sadly, because alot of people are suffering over this.

But I maintain it's not a bad thing to have the church shaken up a bit, and God's doin' some shakin'. He's doin' some cleansing, and it's causing us to take a stand for TRUTH. No more will the willy nilly 'maybe' man be able to stand. We'd best be gettin' out our catechisms and bibles, and be going before the Lord on our faces, and getting our houses clean, for the Lord's doing some shakin' up.

I also maintain that the Church may take on a new look. No, not may, it will. Many who think they really got it together.. don't stand a chance, and many we think are lost will surprise us. We just better be found with our own houses in order.

But back to the subject, the 'out-there, in your face,unrepentant, flagrantly sexually activel gay man has no business being a man in leadership in the Church,priest or laity. That would be a mockery. I stand in deep gratefulness for the Church's protection against such a travesty, kind of like a child, secure in his Dad's authority. I also stand in complete and heartfelt gratitude for the Church's mercy and compassion for the humble docile homosexual who is striving to live a chaste and holy life.

It's the heart's position before God, where is the heart? Where is the man who is seeking God's heart?

Charlotte, where have you been? I like the sound of your levelheadedness... Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), August 07, 2003.

Scott just be careful equating the views of bigots on this forum with those of the Catholic Church. Charlotte is OTM here, wonderful and so restrained in the face of such ignorance.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

Scott, I've never been accused of being a bigot and I take offense.

I have been accused of being too progressive.

In reality, I'm pretty moderate.

We can debate whether homosexuality is chosen or a product of physiology, but the bottom line is: homosexuality is condemned by the teachings of Christianity. No ifs, ands, buts, or maybes.

The Church should have leaders (priests, bishops etc.) that we can look up to. We need good men as priests.

I have seen priests who have sinned, I have seen priests who I wonder if have ever sinned.

I've personally have never met a priest that was unworthy of the title.

I'm an advocate for allowing priests to marry. It worked for the early church. I works in other Churches and rites. I would work in the Roman Church.

There is no way I would ever agree with having a person as a leader, who snubs his nose at the teachings of the Church and openly sins and flaunts it, as is happening in the Episcopal Church.

Theresa's right, there comes a time when the line needs to be drawn.

I believe the Vatican has made their stand.

I agree 100 percent.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), August 07, 2003.

"Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life."

--yes, accept the creature of God...

--no, do not accept the relativistic arguments or labels that diffuse the truth and lead to a delusional 'gray area'...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 07, 2003.

Hi John

look I didnt mean to offend you,. I didnt mean everyone who has posted on this thread, I meant Ian and Daniel consistently post bigoted views on young people, protestants, homosexuals, women, in fact anyone they view different from themselves.

I think youll find there is way to present the truth so that it connects with todays world .Its not about relativism. Your statement if not incorrect in itself, is negative and false in its implication... the assumption that the reader will draw is that the Church dosnt want homosexuals. Wereas the truth is that Goid loves each of us perfectly and equally, homosexual or not.

Where is your your compassion, your empathy and your understanding, imagine you were a homosexual man John....

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

"the assumption that the reader will draw is that the Church dosnt want homosexuals."

Kiwi,

That is YOUR assumption...

AND if it is a POSSIBLE assumption THEN ipso facto you, in so many words, state that your assumption is but assumption and NOT what I state.

Therefore, I would suggest one relax and reserve any judgement for actual fact versus assumption...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 07, 2003.

Kiwi, I try my best to be compassionate.

Christian teaching says that the act of homosexuality is wrong.

How do you reconcile that?

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), August 07, 2003.

John I dont have to reconcile that. I never would. However you fail to make that distinction in your previous post (ie the ACT not the orientation itself).

Q.If the Church is not persecuting gays then why are there movements to rid the Church of gay priests? What is wrong with being gay and a priest?

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003 Answers

A. Homosexuality is a disordered condition. I believe that the Church wants good healthy priests. God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), August 06, 2003.

Poor Daniel has got himself all confused in Philosophy 101 goobly gook, he thinks hes smart but even the most simple of thinkers can see the problems of your reply. Do I need to spell it out for you Daniel?

AS someone upthread said...

"The fact that someone is a homosexual does NOT mean that he or she practices a "gay lifestyle," nor that she or he will necessarilly be unchaste if permitted to become nun or a priest."

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

Thanks Charlotte for posting that article. It is superb!!

I "personally" don't think its fair to call a guy a "gay priest" if he's living a celebate and chaste lifestyle. It's a moot point. I don't like calling sober alcoholics, alcoholics either. He is a conquering alcoholic. He is conquering his sin. It think labels lock people in cages. It's like branding someone with a scarlet letter they have to carry around with them everywhere they go.

Plus when someone says so-in-so is a "gay priest" it suggests he is still living his vice.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 10, 2003.

That is correct. As known from Fr. John Harvey and others who work in this area, people who are attracted to the same sex but who wish to live as chaste Catholics don't WANT to be called "gay," which is a term associated with "practicing homosexuals" who are activists agitating for special "rights."

-- Art (ars@gratia.artis), August 11, 2003.

Charlotte,

-- Just bumping this thread -to reacquaint myself and possibly get an answer to the question posted above and reposted for you now:

"Please show me where it states that the homosexuality is an "inborn homosexual "orientation"" and not a moral failing..."

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 12, 2003.

Please show me where it states that the homosexuality is an "inborn ... orientation" and not a moral failing ...

Nowadays, to avoid confusion, you have to explain what you mean by the word "homosexuality" before making that request of Charlotte.

If, by the word "homosexuality," you mean the mere attraction, then her reply should be this: The Vatican documents do not call a homosexual attraction either an "inborn orientation" or a "moral failing." The documents wisely withhold comment on whether the attraction is at all nature (genetic) or nurture (learned), because this is not yet known with certainty.

But if, by the word "homosexuality," you mean "engaging in sexual acts with a person of the same sex," then her reply should be this: The Vatican documents make clear that the acts are objectively sinful (intrinsically evil), but they do not brand those acting as having a "moral failing." I assume that they avoid assigning personal guilt because of the fact that some who engage in these acts have become addicted to them after being raped as very young children. Such unfortunates may not ever have been guilty of a "moral failing."

A.

-- Art (ars@gratia.artis), August 13, 2003.