I WAS WONDERING WHAT IS THE 'TORONTO BLESSING' AND WHY IS IT SO CONTROVERSIAL.

IS IT BAD ????!!!

-- Andrew Swampillai (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), August 03, 2003

Answers

The so-called "Toronto Blessing" is one of the wackiest spinoffs of Protestant Pentecostalism that has come down the pike. It started in some obscure little fundamentalist church that met in a building at the Toronto Airport. When the "Holy Spirit" comes upon them, they go into fits of uncontrollable laughter, make animal sounds like sheep, horses, or even roaring lions, and experience what they call "spiritual drunkenness", where they lose their sense of balance, the results of which contribute to the hysterical laughter.

Visitors to this church have brought this craziness back to their own fundamentalist churches, so the movement has spread to various locations around the country, though most fundamentalist churches have not adopted it.

I doubt that it could be called Satanic in the strict sense, though Satan certainly rejoices when anyone drifts far away from the precepts of genuine Christianity; and this is surely an example of how far you can drift from mainline Christianity, once you reject the Biblical pillar and foundation of truth. Snake handlers are another such bizarre, hyperemotional sect, where what you feel, and the physical manifestations of what you feel, not what you believe, is the essence of your "faith".

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 03, 2003.

Paul, you certainly did your homework! And right you are. I have been to meetings held by Rodney Howard Browne (the Holy Ghost Bartender) they call him, which are quite similar to this Toronto thing. The meetings were obnoxiously carnal. I felt like I had been in a tunnel with pots and pan clanging in my ear by the time I left there. I didn't know these meetings were still going on.

Man, Oh Man, am I glad to be out of Protestantism chasing the latest fad to hit the Christian marketplace of absurdities.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 03, 2003.

"...Rodney Howard Browne (the Holy Ghost Bartender) they call him...

lol!!!!!!!!!

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 03, 2003.

What is really interesting are the paralells between these protestant movements and Muslim Sufism. The Sufis also work themselves up into a frenze like this and then they do weird this as pierce themselves all over their body. I wonder if protestants got this strangeness from sufism.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), August 04, 2003.

Careful, there's a precious baby in that bath water you're throwing out.

I realize that my testimony regarding either the Toronto Blessing or Rodney Howard-Browne doesn't have much weight on this forum, but here it is anyway :-)

In 1995, I attended a number of Rodney Howard-Browne meetings over the course of weeks, so I also have first-hand experience. And while I attended first out of curiosity (to see first-hand what others were saying about it) and while I was concerned over what were very fleshly (carnal, not demonic) over-reactions to what was happening, I was completely startled to discover that at the core of these meetings, God was doing a very powerful work there. God used Toronto and Howard-Browne to touch and refresh millions of Christians from all denominations - including hundreds, if not thousadns, of Catholic priests and nuns (Of the 3,000 or so people attending each of the services I attended, I saw scores of priests and nuns attending each service).

All of the various manifestations that have generated all of the publicity and concern are just a distraction to the real work that God was doing there.

The primary focus of the meetings is worshipping God and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. I recall the first time the Holy Spirit filled me (many years before these meetings), the power of God was so strong that I could not stand in His Presence. Much the same occurred with these meetings. That same manifestation of God's Presence was very much there and 'yes' many people had odd reactions like falling on the ground or laughing . . . but recall the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit fell on the 120 and they poured into the street babbling in other tongues and prophesying and behaving in a way that had everyone thinking they were drunk at 9:00 am in the morning. People often look silly and undignified when the Holy Spirit comes in power. If that offends some, so be it.

As Catholics, I'm sure you have had similar religious events/experiences in your past that other Christians and the world would view as odd. One just has to read the lives of the saints and be familiar with events that have surrounded the apparitions to know some of the things I'm referring to. Let's not be so hasty in judging how God moves among others when He's done some rather "odd" things amongst yourselves.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.

"...including hundreds, if not thousands, of Catholic priests and nuns (Of the 3,000 or so people attending each of the services I attended, I saw scores of priests and nuns attending each service)."

Keep moving, folks... nothing to see here. Keeping moving please.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 04, 2003.

Scott,

Comparing the self-mutilation that Muslims do to themselves in a worship frenzy with Protestantism . . . so here we demonstrate the point I was making. For if I were so inclined, I could draw a closer parallel to the self-mortification that some Catholics do (using spiked chains to strike themselves causing pain). I understand the difference between that and what the Muslims do, but it's a far closer analogy than anything that Protestants do at least that I am aware of. And it drives home the odd things that even Catholics do as an act of worship.

So to criticize a group who falls on the ground laughing during their worship leaves one open to being called hypocritical since some Catholics literally crucify themselves each year during Easter as an act of worship. Such matters are often a 2 way street.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.

Emerald,

Are we the proverbial monkey covering ones eyes and ears to the truth? I personally spoke with a handful of priests from a Philadelphia parish that had visited Howard-Brownes meetings each night that week.

I point such things out for several reasons, (1) because it's the truth, and (2)it serves as a rebuttal to know that what you so broadly dismiss here on this forum is held in high esteem by members of your own clergy.

And inferring that I'm lying only serves to demonstrate your immaturity.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.

On the contrary, Dave. I absolutely believe that what you are saying is the truth.

I'm ashamed of it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 04, 2003.

Let me just come out and say it. These people are under the influence of demonic entities.

There, I said it! lol. =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 04, 2003.

Oh, sorry for the misinterpretation. What if I were to tell you that the parish of the priests I spoke with strictly use the old Latin Rite Mass? Just kidding - or am I? m If I could remembet their names, I could look it up :-) But that was 8 years ago now, little chance of that.

As for being under demonic influence . . . does that extend to practices such as self-mortification? Or is that judgment reserved just for non-Catholic odd worship practices?

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.

Dear Dave,

It is certainly true that the Holy Spirit has worked in tremendous power in the Holy Catholic Church, and that genuine manifestations of the Spirit's action may be intense, and may seem strange to outside observers, just as at Pentecost. "... the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

However, it is also true that the Bible provides specific guidelines for discerning the movement of the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ. "... let all things be done for edification." (1 Cor 14:26) I fail to see how people rolling around on the floor whinnying like donkeys and growling like bears can be interpreted as faithful to that biblical instruction. "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace". (1 Cor 14:33)

Don't get me wrong. I have no doubt that the people who are involved in this bizarre behavior think they are doing so in response to the Holy Spirit, and in some sense for the glory of God. I certainly would not question either their motives or their sincerity. However, pagans who threw young virgins into a volcano also thought they were doing it for "God", as they understood "God", and were completely sincere in doing so. You said it yourself ... "All of the various manifestations that have generated all of the publicity and concern are just a distraction to the real work that God was doing there". That about sums it up. The behaviors that define the "Toronto Blessing" are distractions from the work of God, and as such they cannot be of God. God does not send manifestations which distract or detract from His work. Therefore such practices must be the product either of mere human emotionalism, or of an evil presence, or both. And, as I said before, even if such ungodly behavior is of purely human/emotional origin, Satan will surely use it to draw people away from the will of God.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 04, 2003.

Hi Paul,

I forgot to mention that the animal noises you've referred to were, from everything I've read, a very rare thing that occurred early on in the movement at Toronto (that was the only place I am aware of it occurring). It was greatly discussed and oft-used as a point of condemnation of the movement, but it was like criticizing a baseball game because the stadium played Motley Crue during the 7th inning stretch instead of the traditional "Take me out to the ball game" - poor analogy, I know :-)

It actually led to the leader of the Vineyard Churches, John Wimber, to bring discipline to the church. When Paul Arnot, the Toronto pastor refused to outright stop the noises (he preferred to ignore it hoping it would go away), Arnot kicked them out of the Vineyard Churches. Ultimately it stopped altogether. What's left today is a place where people visit and experience an intense awareness of God's Presence and very subtle manifestations, much as you would in any Charismatic Church.

I view it very much as a fleshly distraction.

On the other hand, it brings to mind how God used a donkey once to prophesy through and had one of his prophets go naked for a while and even praised Kind David for dancing before him in his undies. So I guess we can't totally rule out odd behavior as a factor for judging whether or not something is from God.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.

Correction, it was Wimber who kicked Arnot and the Toronto Fellowship out of the Vineyard movement.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.

Rodney Howard Browne fills his "sermons" which funny little anecdotes, gets the crowd laughing hysterically (he is funny) and then moves in for the kill. He gives a 20 minute speech on the power of their "offering" and how God blesses the offerer. So whilst the crowd is reeling from his humor and succumbing to the insults he casts towards the "non-believers" (you know, those who won't "fall under the power") he takes his million dollar offering. The guy is a total fraud.

Gail

P.S. Apparently, his wife uses quite a bit of the cash on her plastic surgery, as she looks ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like she did when she first came to this country. In fact, the last time I saw her, I thought he had divorced his first wife and married another. He is a common day peddler, peddling the gospel for cash. He is a Simonist!!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 04, 2003.

Hi Gail,

While I agree with you that Howard-Browne's teaching focus on giving is more than what I'm comfortable with, he's not one of those charlatans that promises miracles for donations. He teaches about giving too much in my opinion, but he approaches his ministry finances honestly from all accounts.

And again, we have to be careful how we judge. Does his teaching on giving disqualify his entire ministry?

As a Catholic, what is your opinion of the personal and financial requirements that the Opus Dei (for instance) places on it's members? If Howard-Browne required church members to work and give him all of the money and to surrender their inheritances over to them, I suspect you'd be viewing him more like a cult leader as well as a Simonist. Is the Opus Dei acceptable to you? Is there any good in their ministry? Does their financial control over member lives completely disqualify everything they do?

I'm just providing some food for thought. I personally don't respond to financial appeals from ministries which use manipulation to increase the offering whether it's Oral Roberts saying God's gonna take him home to heaven if his school didn't receive $8 million in giving (or something ridiculous along those lines) or a medevil Catholic bishop collecting indulgences to buy your loved one out of purgatory. Ministry finances have long been a source of sin, but that doesn't immediately preclude that everything having to do with that ministry is wrong, odd as that may seem.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.

I'm sorry, Dave, but I just cannot agree with you. Sure, there is some good that can come out of ministries like Rodney and Benny, but does the end really justify the means? I mean, what about the millions of people being led astray by these ministries?

You probably aren't aware of this, but Rodney Howard Browne has left a path of destruction behind him wider than an F-5 Tornado in Kansas. Churches are stripped bare after he runs through. If you CAN judge a tree by its fruit, one would have to say this is "bad" fruit. I know so many people whose lives have been RUINED, and I'm not exaggerating, by these ministries.

Let me just give you my personal experience with Mr. Hinn. Approximately 7 years ago I was working with adults with disabilities. A very dear fellow suffering from cerebral palsy was one of my patients. I thought it would be wonderful to see him healed. Benny was coming to town. So I ask Bobby if he wants to go. My husband and I load Bobby up in his wheelchair and onto his special van, drive the two and half hours to get to the "crusade." We're there two hours early so we can kind of scope the place out. Everyone with a severe disability was put in front of the stage occupying the floor of the auditorium. Perhaps 500 were on the floor. These comprised some of the sickest, most debilitated people you can imagine; people with advanced staged cancers, gross deformities, etc. etc. They were so hopeful. One little old black lady had driven all the way from Buffalo New York (30 hour drive) to bring this poor pitiful creature to the "healing". NOT ONE OF THESE FOLK WERE HEALED -- NOT ONE!!!! Only "invisible" healings were had -- You know the kind not seen by the human eye. Kind of suspicious don't you think? I guess God can only heal those with minor little aches and pains. I took Bobby home in tears crying, "Why didn't God heal me? Why didn't God heal me?"

Benny has been challenged by many Protestant groups to provide "documented evidence" of his so-called healings. NONE HAS BEEN FORTHCOMING. Not one! He provided one group with an "alleged" evidence of a healing, only to find out that the healing was a result of surgery -- NOT BENNY'S ANNOINTING. He made a claim that "a man was resurrected from the dead in one of his meetings," only to recant his story after the press applied pressure.

So here you have a fellow with three mansions in various places, private jets, etc., flying all over the country like a ravenous locust stripping the crops clean.

We are to judge, Dave, but not self-righteously or hypocritically. Jesus warns about false prophets and teachers. That surely requires a judgment, does it not?

Lots of love,

Gail

P.S. BTW, Benny recently got in trouble in Texas because he had been taking "contributions" to his new healing center which was supposed to have been built by now. Guess what? No healing center (but he does have a new mansion in Florida).

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 04, 2003.

I understand Gail, I've struggled with these issues as well.

As for Hinn, as much as I can't stand his odd and flamboyant mannerisms and lifestyle, I've concluded that he really does love the Lord and God uses him, though not nearly as much as one would conclude by watching his shows. I've only attended 1 of his events a number of years ago, and I don't watch his show or anything, so it's not like I follow him or anything.

I do though know personally a man who was a very respectable top executive with an international firm in Baltimore who, after personally assisting with the coordination of Hinn's event in Baltimore 8 years ago and personally witnessing what God did through Hinn's ministry, not only during but after the show, he quit his job and joined Hinn. Today, if I catch a Hinn show while channel surfing, I see him on stage helping to coordinate the event. My friend Don is a man above reproach and I know for a fact that he would never be involved with Hinn if he saw faked healings or things that he questionned - I just have the utmost respect for Don and I trust his character.

As for the strange theology that you referred to, indeed they were odd teachings, but they were also something that he renounced many years ago (20 or more) after he was clocked on them as being heretical. He publically repented and pulled the books from the shelves and he no longer teaches those things. He still has some odd teachings, don't get me wrong, but I don't think he's presently teaching anything heretical - at least not that I've heard of.

As for documented healings in his ministry, he published a book a few years back with 10 example healings that were supposedly certified by doctors (I remember seeing the book which was published in response to people's questionning the validity of his claims) and I know of at least one very public healing that did occur and is medically proven. Evander Holyfield had a serious and medically documented heart condition that caused boxing to retire him a few years ago fearing his death if he ever boxed again. He attended a Hinn event a few weeks after the diagnosis and was healed as proven by his doctors and the xrays - his heart was 100% after the Hinn event. So I can't really agree with you that none of the miracles that have occurred at Hinn events have ever been medically documented. In fact, I personally know of 2 people who were healed while at a Hinn event. I knew of their condition before and after and today (8 years later) they are still healed.

Does that mean that most of the people who went to be healed didn't go away unchanged, 'no' that's tragically not the case. In fact, I haven't seen a ministry yet that didn't have the same exact thing happen - including Charismatic Catholic healing ministries that I'm familiar with. It's just that while miracles do occur today, they are still extremely rare even under "healing" ministries.

I actually don't like Hinn very much and never pay much attention to him, but neither do I completely dismiss everything he's done as being faked and contrived. I've got personal evidence to the contrary that I can't deny, so I find myself here somewhat defending him.

Sorry for having to disagree with you. On most issues, I completely agree with you and even on this one, completely understand why you believe what you do (I really do) and if I didn't have some personal experiences with Hinn and Howard-Browne to the contrary, I would share your beliefs.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.

I like you too, Dave!

God Bless,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 05, 2003.

I have been following the writings on this forum and when the focus turned to Hinn I couldn't help but agree with Dave and the others. Hinn may have his mansions and his own private jet and may not be a true Christian, but he is one of those who Jesus talked about to his disciples when they complained of unknown others healing using Jesus's name. According to Jesus, he said in more or less words "they are not against us so let them be". I suspect that Jesus being infinitely wise knew that even through charlatans like Hinn, people could come to God. Benny Hinn's private practices not withstanding do encourage people to accept Jesus as his savior at his meetings and he does have a charismatic manner but since there is no massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit as with truly well-intentioned preachers, the healings are few and far between rather than the norm. I would draw your attention to other events such as the charismatic preachers from Potta Ashram(catholic) in Kerala, India who through their truly good intentions for fellow humans channel the power of God daily to heal those bruised in body in Jesus's name. They also visit different countris including the United States regularly to preach to succeeding generations of the first belivers, creating a return strengthening of faith coming from Asia!

-- Joseph (bijoy_joseph@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.