SEMINOLE operations over ACL/SCL : LUSENET : ACL and SAL Railroads Historical Society : One Thread

Regarding the SEMINOLE, does anyone know if IC or CofGa motive power ever operatated over the ACL/SCL on a run-through basis between Albany GA and Jacksonville? If so, was this part of a formal arrangement among the cooperating railroads, or were such occurances rare? Thanks for all replies.

-- BobVenditti (, August 02, 2003


Larry Goolsby stated that the "Southwind" used PRR run through power. He was right to a point, but it ran deeper than that. Three railroads pooled power for that every third day operation out of both Chicago and Miami. They were the Louisville & Nashville, the Atlantic Coast Line, and the Pennsylvania Railroad.

-- Bill Sellers (, August 09, 2003.

Need photos of IC "Rip Van Winkle Bridge", BAD!

-- J.Oates (, August 08, 2003.

Joe, the "Rip Van Winkle Bridge" that went to IC was a 4-4-2 as opposed to a 6-6-4. And Walthers now shows 4-4-2 sleepers available (expected September 2003 per their web-site)and they plan to offer it in IC scheme. You can bet I'll be painting one up as an ACL "River' 4- 4.

-- Bob Venditti (, August 06, 2003.

I only have two CofM actual consists.Neither shows 6-6-4's.So let's use that Walther's on the "Seminole" name it "Rip Van Winkle Bridge" (where can I get decals?)and add 43R trucks.

-- J.Oates (, August 06, 2003.

For those who are interested-the C of G lightweight cars painted in the City of Miami scheme were the 663-a 56 seat 1947 ACF lot 2866 built car and the 670, 671 and 672. These three cars were originally built as 68 seat divided chair cars by ACF in 1947 lot 2867 and were numbered 540,541 and 543. In 1959 they were rebuilt as 52 seat coaches with two large restrooms replacing the original 4 small rest rooms. They were re-numbered at that time.

The heavyweight cars painted in the IC scheme were the C of G 527-60 seat divided coach Pullman lot 4788 1924 modernized April 1953, 528- 64 seat divided coach Pullman lot 4788 1924 modernized ??, 532-64 seat divided coach Pullman lot 4789 1924 modernized October 1952, 533- 64 seat divided coach Pullman lot 4721 1923 modernized October 1952, and 531-56 seat divided coach Pullman lot 4720 1923 modernized 1940. Cars 527,528,532 and 533 had streamlined rounded roofs and wide windows, while car 531 had a clerestory roof and wide windows.

-- Michael W. Savchak (, August 06, 2003.

As Mr. ACL Goolsby immediately reminded me, the C of G cars were not delivered in the City of Miami scheme-they were repainted circa 1952 or so. Only the FEC and ACL had cars factory delivered in the City of Miami scheme. The two IC cab signal equipped E-8 units were also not delivered in the IC paint scheme but were repainted some time in the 1950's.

Mea culpa!

-- Michael W. Savchak (, August 05, 2003.

Both the IC and the PRR leased sleeper dome cars from the Northern Pacific during the late 1950's early 1960's for winter season use on both the City of Miami and the South Wind. As Joe mentions, the IC went to the expense of repainting the cars in its colors and then again repainting the cars back to the two tone NP green at the end of the lease.

In early 1967, the IC purchased six dome cars from the Missouri Pacific. Three of the cars were built by Budd in 1948 for use on the Colorado Eagle while three cars were built by Pullman-Standard in 1952 for use on the Texas Eagle. These cars were purchased for use on the City of New Orleans and the City of Miami. In order to keep glass replacement costs to a minimum, and help the air conditioning systems, the IC replaced all of the glass on the front and rear of the dome, as well as the glass on the middle with steel panels. The only remaining glass was at the side of the domes. While this saved glass replacement costs and minimally helped the AC, it made the dome ride somewhat less exhiliarating as there was no front or rear view.

As for the coach on the end of the City of Miami with the SCL herald, it most probably was one of the ex ACL owned 54 seat Pullman-Standard built cars that were delivered with smooth sides, IC paint, IC specified seating and special in car radio systems for use on the City of Miami. The FEC and Central of Georgia also had cars delivered in the IC paint scheme for use on the City of Miami. The ACL Lightweight Car Diagram books available from the Society and the Central of Georgia car diagram book from the Southern Railway Historical Society give details on these cars.

The IC 6-6-4 sleepers were built in 1942 for the Panama Limited. The mid train sleeper lounges used on the City of Miami were also veterans of the 1942 Panama Limited.

-- Michael W. Savchak (, August 05, 2003.

The Walther's web site and their Terminal Depot mailer shows the PS 6-6-4, in IC colors, due in Nov. 2003. I believe it is lettered "King Cotton". Could this car be used for the Seminole or City trains?

-- Mark Kuehler (, August 04, 2003.

One more twist. Paul Carlton's "Locomotives of the Seaboard System" contains a b&w Nov. 1970 photo of a City Of Miami at Lake Worth FL, which has a smooth-sided IC-painted coach on the tail wearing SCL round heralds. The caption states it is lettered "City Of Miami", although it's difficult to determine this from the photo angle. The car's number is not mentioned. It could it possibly be the ex-SAL car.

Speaking of Walthers, let's hope they plan on offering their 6-6-4 sleeper in IC colors; it would be a great help to anyone trying to model the Seminole...myself included.

-- Bob Venditti (, August 04, 2003.

The IC so much as went to the trouble each winter to repaint a NP dome-sleeper into IC colors,then back again.Walther's will do the Via (CP)dome-coach in IC paint and could be a fill in.Wonder if they will paint out most of the dome windows?

-- J.Oates (, August 04, 2003.

Responding to Prof. Savchak's question about the SAL coach in IC colors, which became 6269 on SAL, I don't believe it ran on the City of Miami in SAL days but instead was kept on SAL trains. I know it was a regular on the Silver Comet (along with many of the other ex- FEC cars), or what remnant remained of that train in its final years. But, possibly it went back to the CoM after the SCL merger. That would have required SCL to paint out "Seaboard" and reapply the "City of Miami" lettering, but it could have happened. If anybody knows, speak up -

By the way, the IC may have insisted on color-coordinated trains, but that rule got very lax in the Seminole's and CoM's waning years. The Seminole quite often had a hodgepodge of every known RR's headend cars, and SCL regularly stuck several "off-brand" express cars on the CoM south of Jacksonville. It does appear that the passenger-carrying equipment largely remained in pure IC colors, however.

-- Larry Goolsby (, August 04, 2003.


One of the limitations on the run through of power was the requirement for units operating on the IC to be equipped with the IC's two speed train control system for operating between Champaign and Carbondale. The IC operated cab signal without wayside on this stretch and only equipped engines could operate. The two CofG units Larry refers to were equipped with IC cab signals and therefore could operate on the IC without restrictions. The IC basically treated those engines as if they were in its pool and even operated them on its Iowa lines.

The problem was the total supply of engines-there just weren't enough units to cover the City of Miami and the Seminole. The Albany- Jacksonville run meant that at least two units would be required for two days to make the round trip. By the time there were enough IC cab signal equipped units available the through run was close to being abandoned.

The lack of IC cab signals was one of the reasons why the ACL never operated its units to Chicago on the IC as it did on the PRR South Wind. Another reason was the IC's insistance that cars and engines on its trains be painted in its colors. Thats why you had ACL and C of G heavyweight and lightweight cars painted in IC colors. The lightweights were for the City of Miami while the heavyweights were for the Seminole. And yes, the FEC car "Canal Point" purchased by the SAL remained in IC colors with "Seaboard" on it's nameboard!

Now does anyone have a photograph of that car on the City of Miami with its Seaboard name still in place??

Another interesting item was that the first unit delivered for the 1940 City of Miami IC 4000 was also equipped with intermittent automatic train stop similar to that used by the ACL for operation on Southern Railway trackage rights between Jasper and Haleyville Alabama.

-- Michael W. Savchak (, August 04, 2003.

That didn't occur to my knowledge. Run-throughs did occur with the City of Miami (IC units) and South Wind (PRR units), but I'm not aware of IC or CofG units going past Albany on the Seminole. IC and CofG units (specifically CofG E8s 811 and 812, which in later years were painted in IC colors) did pool on the Seminole between Chicago and Albany. You might want to doublecheck by asking this on the CofG HS Q&A -

-- Larry Goolsby (, August 03, 2003.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ