Some folks have posted some questions concerning the Church's stance on homosexuality. Thought this would be of interest!

Posted on Thu, Jul. 31, 2003 Vatican starts campaign vs. gay marriage NICOLE WINFIELD Associated Press VATICAN CITY - The Vatican launched a global campaign against gay marriages Thursday, warning Catholic politicians that support of same-sex unions was "gravely immoral" and urging non-Catholics to join the offensive.

The Vatican's orthodoxy watchdog, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, issued a 12-page set of guidelines with the approval of Pope John Paul II in a bid to stem the increase in laws granting legal rights to homosexual unions in Europe and North America.

"There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family," the document said. "Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law."

The Associated Press was first to report on the outline of the plan in a story Monday.

The issue is particularly charged in the United States, where some in Congress have proposed a constitutional ban on gay marriage to counter state laws granting legal recognition to same-sex unions.

President Bush said Wednesday that marriage was defined strictly as a union between a man and a woman and said he wants to "codify that one way or the other."

The Vatican document, "Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons," sets out a plan for politicians when confronted with proposed legislation granting homosexual couples the same rights as married heterosexuals.

It also comes out strongly against allowing gay couples to adopt, saying children raised by same-sex parents face developmental "obstacles" because they are deprived of having either a mother or a father.

"Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children," it said.

It said gay adoptions contradicted the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child, which holds that the best interests of the child are paramount.

The document also says Catholic politicians have a "moral duty" to publicly oppose laws granting recognition to homosexual unions and to vote against them.

If the laws are already on the books, politicians must speak out against them and work to repeal them. "To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral," the document said.

The Vatican said its guidelines were not only intended for Catholic lawmakers but for non-Christians and everyone "committed to promoting and defending the common good of society" since the issue concerned natural moral law, not just Church doctrine.

The document comes after an appeals court in Canada ruled in June that the country's definition of marriage as only between a man and a woman is unconstitutional, paving the way for legalized gay unions.

Vermont and some European nations - including Germany, France, Sweden and Denmark - have "civil union" laws giving same-sex couples the rights and responsibilities of marriage.

The document doesn't contain any new Church teachings on the issue, repeating much of the Vatican's previous comments on homosexuality and marriage, which it defines as a sacred union between man and woman designed to create new human life.

It said homosexuals shouldn't be discriminated against, but said denying gay couples the rights afforded in traditional marriages isn't discrimination.

Monsignor Angel Rodriguez Luno, a professor at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross, noted in a statement released by the Vatican that homosexual relationships, like other human relationships, need not be legally recognized.

Basic friendship, for example, isn't defined legally because it is a private relationship, he said.

In a footnote, the Vatican document noted that there was a danger that laws legalizing same-sex unions could actually encourage someone with a homosexual orientation to seek out a partner to "exploit the provisions of the law."

On Thursday, a small group of demonstrators from Italy's Radical Party held up banners at the edge of St. Peter's Square to protest the document. The banners read "No Vatican, No Taliban," and "Democracy Yes, Theocracy No."

Other opposition to the document came from the Green Party in predominantly Catholic Austria. Ulrike Lunacek, a party spokeswoman, said Catholic politicians should follow human rights conventions, "not the old-fashioned views of the Vatican."

"This hierarchy, which also rules on other issues like forbidding the use of condoms to avoid AIDS, is far from reality," she said in a statement.

Volker Beck, a lawmaker from Germany's Greens party, which led the drive for the same-sex civil union legislation, described the Vatican guidelines as "a document of narrow-minded fanaticism."

A leading conservative politician and a Catholic, Wolfgang Bosbach, gave it a warmer reception: "I assume every Catholic lawmaker will take account of the Holy Father's words in making his decision."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 31, 2003

Answers

Thanks Gail,

This is an issue that has and will continue to split the churches.

If you believe in spiritual warfare, this is a battle that will continue so that churches will be divided. Divide and conquer.

The Anglican/Episcopal communion is really having a hard time. Please pray for them.

I'm could not be happier that the Holy See has made this statement.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), July 31, 2003.

I don't think that the Pope is making the judgement. The Scriptures tell us that God has made this judgment. If anyone has a problem with this "judgement", take it up with God.

rod...

...<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.

Hey rod i will take it up to god i would tell him that gay people are human beings too

-- Patrick Spawn (Taker@cliffhanger.com), July 31, 2003.

"Hey rod i will take it up to god i would tell him that gay people are human beings too"

Take a minute to think about what you are saying, Patrick. I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that gay people are human beings. They aren't paperclips or cement trucks, so...

When you use the phrase "they are human beings", perhaps there's something you are loading into that phrase as an assumption. Are you assuming that to be human is to be unable to control themselves and that people cannot make decisions which change the course of their behavior? That they cannot help but act the way they do?

I think that's what you mean by "they are human beings". If so, then obviously I think that's not true. They most certainly can control their behavior. They simply choose not to; when they choose not to, they reject the law of God. When they persist in rejecting the law of God and perish without repentance and without having availed themselves of the Mercy of God, which is readily available, they go to Hell.

Let's just be honest. They can deny reality all they want until Novissima, at which point there's nothing but the Truth, and all the rest are damnable lies.

It would, however, be nice to see the Vatican start swinging some pure condemnation and anethemas for a change, instead of "coming out strongly against" these sorts of things. No quarter.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2003.

While I am a straight female, excomunicated from the church because I chose to leave a drug addict/alcoholic marriage, I just become outraged when I read "homosexual acts go against moral law".

I wish the Vatican would have taken the same stance on homosexual priests abusing children for years and years only to sweep it all under the rug. And they talk of homosexuals raising children should be considered violence against children?

-- Maureen Long (maureenlong2003@yahoo.ca), July 31, 2003.

Gay people are humans !! __ The R.C.C. would not even allow adoption of children by gay people , why ?? __ There is no abuse invault !! __ My words are let live & let die !! __ Why isn't it allowed for gay people to be happy ??

Greets from a NON BELIEVER

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), July 31, 2003.

Laurent,

It would serve you well to read the document itself instead of relying on news stories about it. The document answers your questions. It can be found here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDfhomun.HTM

Yours in Christ, Bill Nelson

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), July 31, 2003.

several things i am interested in responding to:

excomunicated from the church because I chose to leave a drug addict/alcoholic marriage

youre not excomunicated from the church. now, if you are remarried without a proper annulment then you are living in a life of sin, but that does not constitute excommunication. why dont you try coming back to the church and the path of God, instead of hating that which can save you?

I just become outraged when I read "homosexual acts go against moral law".

why? when God declares that the act of sodomy is morally wrong, why are you outraged? or is it that when people repeat that fact you get outraged? I wish the Vatican would have taken the same stance on homosexual priests abusing children for years and years only to sweep it all under the rug.

the problem of homosexual priests being swept under the rug was less a problem of the vatican and more an issue of bishops making a cover for that fact. blame the vatican all you want, but the second the vatican stepped in the problem started to get worked out.

And they talk of homosexuals raising children should be considered violence against children?

yes. i live in a city. i was walking down the street downtown and i saw a gay couple and their two daughters standing on the sidewalk. the only thing is this, these three year olds turned out to be young boys, which i discovered as i walked past. now, if being forced into gender confusion at an age of THREE without any concious input isnt a crime against the free will of a child, i dont know what is.

Gay people are humans !!

nobody said they werent. in fact, it is in the nature of man to sin. therefore, though someone who is gay is still a human, this makes no difference to the fact that if they lead an active homosexual lifestyle then they are living a life of sin contrary to the word of God.

__ The R.C.C. would not even allow adoption of children by gay people , why ?? __ There is no abuse invault !!

see above. the confusion about gender roles inherent in the system is enough to damage a child, let alone in situations where forced gender differentiation is apparent.

__ My words are let live & let die !!

of course, when God calls for sheperds to lead his flock to salvation, you throw down the staff and say, not me, my sheep go wherever they please, let em live it up and get eaten by the wolves. we not only have a moral responsibility for ourselves, but also for trying to help those around us.

__ Why isn't it allowed for gay people to be happy ??

what is happy? i think what you are looking for is why cant gay people be SATISFIED. happiness comes from deep introspection, a oneness of self that allows one to seek God... to change ones will to the will of God, regardless of urges. seeking only to satisfy urges is less than human, it is animalistic. while it leads to some carnal joy it cannot lead to true happiness. salvation, diligence, faith, discipline, these things are what lead to happiness.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 31, 2003.

godly, When I attended Catholic school, I did pretty well. I was also an altar boy. Doing well in school afforded me the privilege of participating in many outside masses. I was with numerous priests on many occasions. Many times it was just me and the priest.

I have been friends with priests as an adult.

I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER say a priest do anything out of line.

Are they human? you bet.

Are they Godly Men?

ABSOLUTELY.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), July 31, 2003.

Little children, young human beings have the NEED, have the RIGHT, to be raised by a mother and father. It is essential for our psychological balance to have a mother and father, a man and a woman as role models. In the case of death or divorce we have a NEED for at least role models of both genders in order to be psychologically formed in full health and proper order. The Church knows this,and this is why the vatican is stepping forth with this document.

Oh hallelujah for her bravery and courage! Would that we would be so wise and courageous. This by no means encourages bad attitudes and hatred for the homosexual individual, but as stated before; we're talking about the behavior that is intrinsically out of order. The individual homosexual, as in the individual heterosexual, is called to purity and chastity. This is possible, much work, but possible.

I work in the high school and see first hand young teens burdened with sexual confusion and questioning their identity. It is a rough time, and they need time to figure it out.It's a time of great opportunity to lead them to healthy choices and reassure them of who they are as a young man or woman. The young people I know who have gone over to the gay lifestyle are unhappy, confused, guilt-ridden and ashamed. The relationships are built on co-dependance and usually stem from some great deficit that will eventually need healing. To LEAVE A YOUNG PERSON IN THIS STATE, WITHOUT OFFERING THEM FREEDOM AND TRUTH, IS INDEED PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE, violence by neglect, to say the least.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), August 01, 2003.

to whom may concern Gay people have hearts of gold President bush is a racist and he should be impeached for what he said

-- Patrick Spawn (Taker@cliffhanger.com), August 01, 2003.

It would serve you well to read the document itself instead of relying on news stories about it. The document answers your questions. It can be found here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDfhomun.HTM

I have readen that document !! __

Well , my opinion , DISAGREE !!!!

contradiction:

4. There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law. Homosexual acts "close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved".4

Nonetheless, according to the teaching of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies "must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided".7 They are called, like other Christians, to live the virtue of chastity.8

So gay people cannot marry , but you must treat them with respect ??

You see , that's also one of the reasons I left religion ,

contradictions & discrimination !!

(Single) women or men who are junkies or criminals , they can't raise kids or adopt a kid , 'cause they really do have a problem !! __ Not gay people , unless they are junkies or criminals !!

And what about a single healthy woman or man , why are they allowed to adopt kids ??

What's your opinion about transexuals ??

Greets From a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), August 01, 2003.

Racist? Since when do homosexuals constitute a "race"??

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 01, 2003.

Paul first of all Bush Accepted gays but now he doesnt i think he being a little boy stuck in a bigot body

-- Patrick Spawn (Taker@cliffhanger.com), August 01, 2003.

it's about time. the CHurch ought to be far more militant on matters of morality.

press conferences, marches, protests, etc.

you've got to stand up for what you believe.

the adoption of kids by gay parents is one of the most nefarious developments of modern times.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 01, 2003.

I agree Ian and i am sorry for all who is aganist ny views hope u guys in ur heaART TO FORGIVE ME

-- Patrick Spawn (Taker@cliffhanger.com), August 01, 2003.

Laurent LUG,

What's your opinion about transexuals ??

transsexual: a person with a psychological urge to belong to the opposite sex that may be carried to the point of undergoing surgery to modify the sex organs to mimic the opposite sex.

Why bother?

Anyone who wants to change the course of their sexual nature, a nature obviously and blatently laid out for them by their creator, is asking for trouble.

You don't HAVE to comply with that. Do what you like but then YOU take the consequences too.

My momma would say to us as kids, in a situation like that, Can't you find anything better to do?

Listen to yer momma.

Maybe you didn't have one?

Someone raised by a gay male couple might want to be a transexual.

That's a good argument against gay marriages.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), August 01, 2003.

Why do I feel that most Western religions are full of hate, judgement and condemnation, exclusive as opposed to loving and welcoming Eastern religions?

I was born outside the US and was raised Catholic but became detached from Catholic Church when I came to US. I currently do not belong to any religion but I do like the Eastern religious way of thinking.

I do believe in higher being, call him/her/it God, or whatever. Whether I am gay, or straight, married, divorced, or single, I do believe that GOD loves everyone. I do not like the idea of God that hates. When a person believes in an exclusive God, a God that hates, then that person acts the same way.

People who belong in Western religions always quote the Bible and talk as if they are putting words on God's mouth. I would be very scared saying things to people just because I think this is what God would say.

In my opinion, this is not about God and what he wants us to be. This is about conformity and what people in western religions want us to be. Westerners have always been trying to conquer areas outside their own and forcing those areas inhabitants their way of life and thinking. Sometimes, westerners do not get the idea that we are all different. You can not force me to live how you want me to live. You can not force me to be like yourself. And likewise, I can not force you to live how I want you to live. I can not force you to be like myself. I think this is a simple law that is universal as is biblical if I am not mistaken. Is this not the Golden rule?

-- John....an observer (kyle27j@hotmail.com), August 01, 2003.

Hi John:

You said, "In my opinion, this is not about God and what he wants us to be. This is about conformity and what people in western religions want us to be."

Surely you can see the devasting effects of sin, can't you? I mean how can you look at divorce and not see the devastationit causes the children? How can you look at sexual immorality, with all of its pain, disease and self-destruction and say, "Behold, it is good." How can you look at the sin of abortion, the destroying of human life, and say "Well, it's a woman's choice?"

You see, we Christians DO have a code of morality that we endeavor to live by. Why? Because it is the highest GOOD; to live ABOVE sin is to be close to God.

You said, "Westerners have always been trying to conquer areas outside their own and forcing those areas inhabitants their way of life and thinking. Sometimes, westerners do not get the idea that we are all different. You can not force me to live how you want me to live. You can not force me to be like yourself. And likewise, I can not force you to live how I want you to live. I can not force you to be like myself. I think this is a simple law that is universal as is biblical if I am not mistaken. Is this not the Golden rule?"

Christianity was born in the Middle EAST! Neverthless, you are right we cannot force you to choose good over evil. However, we do have a duty to speak forth Biblical principles that are given to us by God. And no, this is not the Golden rule. The so-called Golden rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," is not found in the Bible.

However, we are to love our fellow man. But we don't love our fellow man by telling him if you drink that poison, you will NOT die. (Interestingly, that was Satan's first lie). That is what sin is, John, it is a poison that kills the soul and separates a man or woman from God.

The so-called Eastern god that you mention is nothing more than a god made in your own image! He's an easy god. He doesn't tell you what to do. He doesn't "get in your space." He doesn't chastize you when you need discipline. He also did not send his son to die for your sins. He did not create you. He will not be there for you when you leave this world. He has made NO WAY for redemption.

And WORST of all, John, he's a god that tells you "he poison won't KILL!!"

With Respect,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 01, 2003.

Gail,

"Surely you can see the devasting effects of sin, can't you? I mean how can you look at divorce and not see the devastationit causes the children?"

I CERTAINLY DO. Correct me if I am wrong but divorce is practice religiously by many westerners and CHRISTIANS!!! One little disagreement and fight and they split and look for other mates. Most of them have multiple partners in the course of their lives. Some of them who happen to live in the beautiful state of Utah practice polygamy. And, these people side themselves with GOD? Help me understand.

"How can you look at sexual immorality, with all of its pain, disease and self-destruction and say, "Behold, it is good."'

I absolutely agree with you. Whether you are straight or gay, if you don't practice monogamy or safe sex, you will get STDs! SEX is good if it's done the right way. So practice safe sex!

"How can you look at the sin of abortion, the destroying of human life, and say "Well, it's a woman's choice?"'

You are talking about women who are promiscuous, young or old, who have sex for fun and do not want to get pregnant. These women who abuse the practice of abortion after being impregnated is wrong. It's their decision that's wrong. Abortion is a practice. There are instances when a woman is in danger during pregnancy and has to make a decision whether to get an abortion or not. In that instance, any decision is a good decision. It's not a question of right or wrong.

"You see, we Christians DO have a code of morality that we endeavor to live by. Why? Because it is the highest GOOD; to live ABOVE sin is to be close to God."

I cannot agree with you more and more power to you. If that's what you practice and it makes you happy, that's great! People who share the same way of thinking like mine also obey common sense. What you call sin may be of a holy practice in some cultures. And they also have a code of morality based on their religion and cultures and are older than Christianity. I do not care whatever religion you belong to or practice but if you start saying that mine or his/hers is the right way, then you are bound to clash with whomever you are talking to.

"Christianity was born in the Middle EAST! Neverthless, you are right we cannot force you to choose good over evil. However, we do have a duty to speak forth Biblical principles that are given to us by God. And no, this is not the Golden rule. The so-called Golden rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," is not found in the Bible."

Yes, Christianity was born in the Middle East, in Israel, but was adopted by the Westerners. Israel and the Middle East and most of the areas in the East did not adopt Christianity. Yes, you have the right to speak forth Biblical principles, just like the original apostles going from place to place spreading the Gospel which I prepare to call it than "the words of God." There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, when you start saying that your way is the correct way and start condeming people that their way is the wrong way and it's a sin, then I would have a problem with that. Also, you said that, "However, we do have a duty to speak forth Biblical principles that are given to us by God." This is religio- centricism. You think that God has chosen you and therefore, the rest who are not Christians are sinners and have to be saved. So you try to condemn them of their practices and try to Christianize them. This is an ancient practice historically deadly done by the Spaniards to the American Indians. Also, one has to be careful of saying that what contains in the Bible is the word of God. The bible is written by human beings, just like you and me, who claimed that God has spoken to them. Has anyone seen God? Why is he referred to as HE? Why is modern western and non western religion so paternal or patriachal? It is imbalance and unnaturalistic. Whatever happened to motherly and matriarchal? Most of religions today are so oppressive to women and portray women as sinners. Look at Eve?

Some stories in the bible are just similar to that of the ancient stories of other cultures. And these cultures have writing system as well. These stories are full of parables and not meant to be literal. The bible is a code full of moral codes on how people should in the ancient times. If you live this way, then your life will be ideal. However, it does not mean that it's a sin if you do not live the way the bible tells you how you live. Time changes and moral codes should also change. You can't live in the past and the future. The past is dead. The future is uncertain. You live in the present.

"However, we are to love our fellow man. But we don't love our fellow man by telling him if you drink that poison, you will NOT die. (Interestingly, that was Satan's first lie). That is what sin is, John, it is a poison that kills the soul and separates a man or woman from God."

Too vague and I don't understand what you are saying.

"The so-called Eastern god that you mention is nothing more than a god made in your own image! He's an easy god. He doesn't tell you what to do. He doesn't "get in your space." He doesn't chastize you when you need discipline. He also did not send his son to die for your sins. He did not create you. He will not be there for you when you leave this world. He has made NO WAY for redemption."

I have not mention of any Eastern God. I mentioned of Eastern religions and do not confuse it with Eastern God. There is only one higher being. I do not know how people came to this earth. If I am certain then I will tell you. I also do not pushed away the idea of evolution. In adition, just because I do not have a religion same as yours does not mean, I don't believe in everything that you said. Again, please think broadly and intelligently.

"And WORST of all, John, he's a god that tells you "he poison won't KILL!!""

No comment, don't understand.

PRACTICE SAFE SEX AND MONOGAMY!!! PRO ABORTION RIGHTS EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL PEOPLE LEGALIZE SAME SEX MARRIAGE (Why should church be involve in politics?) THINK UNIVERSAL, GLOBAL, LOCAL BE INTELLIGENT!!! FEMININE GODDESS PEACE :)

-- John.......an observer (kyle27j@hotmail.com), August 02, 2003.

john, which eastern religion would you be talking about that is so into peace... last time i checked all the eastern religion dominated countries were racking and stacking as some of the most violent discriminatory places in the world. its pretty easy to sit on your plush couch of freedom and look down on western culture and religion, but you should take a vacation in iraq sometime and then tell us about eastern freedom of religion and belief. remember, that freedom you have is BECAUSE of the WORK and VALUES of western religion and culture.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), August 02, 2003.

John, thanks for answering my post. I didn't think you would.

YOU ARE RIGHT, divorce amongst Christians is just as prevalent as the rest of the world, and it is a scandal! People in our society change partners like they're changing underwear -- AND THE CONSEQUENCES ARE DEADLY. Sex is MEANT to be between a man and a woman in marriage. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of the human anatomy can tell that man was not meant to have sex with man. Sex is a means of love and PROCREATION within the confines of a loving marriage. That is the standard SET BY GOD!

Secondly, your stance on abortion is quite typical. We hear all the time "the woman's life could be in danger!" HOGWASH! 98% of abortions are done for CONVENIENCE sake. A mere 2% are done because of rape or incest. Abortion kills a beating heart. The child has a personality IN THE WOMB! The child has a SOUL! If you feel that killing a child is morally acceptable, you have completely lost your moral compass. Your conscience has been seared as with a hot branding iron. You cannot possibly know the difference between right and wrong ON ANY OTHER ISSUE if can't get this one right.

About the poison of sin, you said you agree, but yet you want your cake and eat it too, because there is no such thing as safe SIN. There is no such thing as safe SEX, outside of marriage. You want the Church to keep quiet, keep its opinions to itself, BUT HOW CAN IT DO THAT? It is NOT LOVING to keep quiet while folks kill their own souls with their sin. People are drinking the poison of sin and suffering daily for it, and John, the consequences are not only temporal but ETERNAL!

Every person, most assuredly, is free to choose, but they are not, however, free to choose the consequences for their choices. That is an unavoidable fact!

Respectfully,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 02, 2003.

Amen, Gail

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 02, 2003.

john, which eastern religion would you be talking about that is so "into peace... last time i checked all the eastern religion dominated countries were racking and stacking as some of the most violent discriminatory places in the world. its pretty easy to sit on your plush couch of freedom and look down on western culture and religion, but you should take a vacation in iraq sometime and then tell us about eastern freedom of religion and belief. remember, that freedom you have is BECAUSE of the WORK and VALUES of western religion and culture."

Middle East religion is what you are referring to. Yes, it is in the East but it's not the peaceful far Eastern religions that come to my mind, religions that are in harmony with nature. As a matter of fact, Christianity and Islam, both originated in the Middle East have some similarities. Both religions are male chauvanistic and are degrading to women. I would say that the Middle Eastern people's mentalilty is not much different from that of the Westerners due to the influence of their religion. Should I say more. People in Europe are far more progressive in thinking now than in the Americas maily because of the European's resistance to the Church. Historically speaking, Catholism had been battered with scandals and their immoral decisions on history, siding with dictators and controversial and racist people in history. People in Europe and around the world have lost their respect with the Catholic Church. Even now, the Catholic Church is full of contoversy over Catholic priests who molest innocent children and they are not doing anything about it. If you want me to come to your churches, you better have a clean record that you really are sided with GOD. However, after studying your past and future history, I am unlikely be joining your disgusting, superficial churches.

You talk of "Freedom because of Work and Values?" There is not much freedom here in the States. There is so much laws here. Freedom was here before the Westerners invaded, conquered and killed the Indians. Work and Values is exactly the fall of the American society. Go figure.

-- John....an observer (kyle27j@hotmail.com), August 02, 2003.

Nowhere in the bible does it refer to homsexuals as not equal to straight people. In fact it does say that it is those who you hate which you must love the most.

i think we must remember that

-- Kirsten (angel_chicks@hotmail.com), August 02, 2003.

With all due respect, Kristin, you really have no idea what you are talking about. Here's what the Bible says:

Romans Chap 1:25 - 32 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper

. . . . and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1 Cor 6: 9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR HOMOSEXUALS, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kimgdom of God.

Yes, we are all sinners in need of grace, Kristin. Lord knows I have sinned, grossly, and if it were not for the Cross of Christ, I would still be in my sin!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 02, 2003.

for you, john,

Middle East religion is what you are referring to.

no, i believe my question had entirely to do with what eastern religion you were refering to... a question which you conveniently refrained from answering.

As a matter of fact, Christianity and Islam, both originated in the Middle East have some similarities. Both religions are male chauvanistic and are degrading to women.

ah, but see, my question was about an EASTERN religion. i dont want to know about christianity and islam, i want to know why you think buddhism and hindu are so grand... by the way, as soon as you pick one i can show you why both are not all that you crack them up to be.

I would say that the Middle Eastern people's mentalilty is not much different from that of the Westerners due to the influence of their religion.

and i would say that people everywhere will always have discrimination and evil, that it will plague mankind in all lands everywhere. why? because it is part of the NATURE of man to visit evil on others. even the 'eastern religions' harbor violence on one another. there is no society which is free from the snares of sin. if you actually lived in some of these places you speak of you might know that.

Should I say more.

by all means, if you refuse to answer a simple question, please continue to enlighten us...

People in Europe are far more progressive in thinking now than in the Americas maily because of the European's resistance to the Church.

WRONG. i LIVE in germany, and i can tell you for a fact that the people there are MUCH more attached to their religions than they are here. now, religiosity and loyalty varies from country to country, however, america has a lower church attendence rate than all of em (except holland, but thats a WHOLE other story... and we wont even talk of the 'virtue' and STDs pouring out of there)

Historically speaking, Catholism had been battered with scandals and their immoral decisions on history, siding with dictators and controversial and racist people in history.

oh dear heavens... you mean that in the largest group of people in history, which has lasted the longest of any organization in the history of man, that there have been evil people trying from within to tear down the church??? *gasp.* my boy, i was forced to attend protestant church as a child, ive heard all of this before, so tell me something that i dont know. what matters is the church, which is of GOD and not the errors of some past MEN who held power.

People in Europe and around the world have lost their respect with the Catholic Church.

really? funny that it is still the LARGEST religion in the world, claiming more than a fifth of the worlds population... people didnt lose respect for the church, you dont lose respect for God. what people did is become disillusioned with a set of priests and bishops.

Even now, the Catholic Church is full of contoversy over Catholic priests who molest innocent children and they are not doing anything about it.

im sure what you mean to say is even LAST year the church WAS full of controversy. while we're at it though, lets talk some statistics. did you know that the catholic church has the LOWEST percentage of molesting ministers of ANY religion, your precious eastern religions included. and lets not forget that the problem has been dealt with by the vatican and surprise surprise, cases have been dealt with and there are no new cases.

I am unlikely be joining your disgusting, superficial churches.

and after studying the violent histories of buddhism, hindu, and the like, i wont ever even think of what it must be like to be a member of one of your false religions (and i do say that with the utmost respect for zen buddhists, though that path of buddhism doesnt really constitute a religious path in the same way others do)

You talk of "Freedom because of Work and Values?" There is not much freedom here in the States. There is so much laws here.

there is more freedom than you will ever know unless you take that vacation to iraq that i suggested...

____________________________________________________________________

now for you kristen...

Nowhere in the bible does it refer to homsexuals as not equal to straight people. In fact it does say that it is those who you hate which you must love the most. i think we must remember that

nobody said they were not equal to straight people... and we do love all people as well. what we dont love is there sin, which is vile to us and to God. i think you should remember that. next time you have something to say, how about putting a little meat into your arguement instead of just stating your opinion... might evoke a better answer...

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), August 02, 2003.

For Paul:

If you study the true history of how Christianity started, you will look at the world differently and respect human beings as they should be respected. There would not be anymore of these demonizing bullshit which Christians always do. It saddens me very much because I really respect Jesus but because of politics and people's interests, they have used him in the wrong way. The Bible that you religiously and ritualistically follow and read was intentionally changed to make Jesus more Godly than human. Anyways, if you are interested in the truth, you must seek it yourself. The truth will not come to you. This will be my last word and will never return to this website anymore.

-- John (Kyle27j@hotmail.com), August 03, 2003.

The arguments for gay marriage are compelling yet disturbing! Can these same arguments be applied to those who believe polygamy should be allowed? Can these arguments also be applied to those who believe marrige between family members (incest) is constitutional? I know what the answer would be from the right! I want an answer from those who think gay marriage should be allowed! I want to know from them why cousins or brothers and sisters should not be allowed to marry each other! If they love each other, who are we to say they are not entitled to do so? Do those who do not see the love of Christians have enough "Love" within themselves to take a stand for incest? Or are they going to be just like the Christian and say it should not be? Don't ask where the love is........show it! As said before....Love is not telling a person...a lie! Love gives the truth....and saves us from ourselves!

-- Bart (bartman_3@earthlink.net), November 19, 2003.

By the way, if you say that marriage or sex between family members can produce children who are deformed....don't! We have pills, condoms, and abortion to handle these deformities! Maybe this is why many from the "hateful" Christian beliefs are opposed, not only to incest...but the devices that take away the effects! Do we see the future...is it bright? Or is it how the Christians believe, and how the word of God claims that such practices will ultimately lead to destruction....?I am compelled to believe the latter and because I love you.....I will tell you the truth.....it is wrong!

-- Bart (bartman_3@earthlink.net), November 19, 2003.

This is not about a God who tells people to do this or not do this for a power trip or control! This is not about a God who says "Don't do this I or I will destroy you"! This is about a God who says "Don't do this or you will bring destruction upon yourself and generations to follow"! Don't touch the hot stove son and daughter for it will burn you! He says this because he loves us! The children of God are saying this for the same reason! It is Love...not hate!

-- Bart (bartman_3@earthlink.net), November 19, 2003.

It seems to me that people don't want the truth! What they want is to be told that it does'nt matter, it's ok and there is no harm in such practices! They want to hear what makes them happy, just like a child who wants to touch the hot stove! Even if it brings terrible things to the generations who follow in their footsteps! Where is the "Love" in that? Get what you want even at the cost of others.....?What I want is all that matters! God says it is sin and sin brings forth destruction...The one who hates you...the one who truly hates you...only appears to love you by telling you what you want to hear! Your enemy knows what you want for he has the same desires and wants to change the truth....The truth cannot be changed.....otherwise it is a lie! Heaven and Earth will pass away...but the truth will stand forever.. Amen

-- Bart (bartman_3@earthlink.net), November 19, 2003.

Are the rights of those who seek to marry multiple partners or family members equal to those who want to enter gay marriages?

No you say......?The rights of gay couples are greater?

Then neither are the rights of gays to be married equal to the marriage rights of heterosexuals!

-- Bart (bartman_3@earthlink.net), November 19, 2003.

People who practice incest and polygamy are people too!

-- Bart (bartman_3@earthlink.net), November 19, 2003.

bart,

slow down, nobody has even responded to your first post and youve continued to argue with yourself for six posts now. this isnt a chat room. take time to think about your answer and post it all at once, that way we dont have to read through alot of the things and figure out when someone is posting a multi or when people are responding.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 19, 2003.

Bart:

That's the first time I've heard of a child being called an "effect." Hey, I'm the oldest of ten "effects" of my parents' marriage! And I find it insulting that anyone would think about "taking away these effects."

Look, why don't you just say what you really think? That anyone should be able to have sex with anyone else, at any time. I don't know why you have to include God in your postings at all. I mean, this pleasure that you are talking about has really very little in common with love, doesn't it? Box yourself into the world-of-no- consequences that you are looking for.

All you'll lose is the only One who can fill that emptiness and dissatisfaction within you.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), November 19, 2003.

For we should not allow any more Gay couple in American Samoa. Because create two people the man and the women. But not the men to a men.

-- Sootaga Tuaau (sootaga_tuaau@yahoo.com), November 19, 2003.

Jmj

Hi, Catherine Ann.
I will grant that Bart's writing style is a bit confusing, but I interpreted him to be promoting the Christian (pro-normal-marriage) point of view, not defending perversion. (Maybe he'll be back to clarify.)
He left out something pretty sickening, but it has to be mentioned -- so that one can see how the "slippery slope" works ... If the Massachusetts Supreme Court says that the State Constitution does not prohibit the marriage of two women, what is to prevent a PETA babe (animal rights wacko) from arguing that the Constitution does not prohibit her from marrying her Great Dane?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 19, 2003.

Mr. Gecik,

That's entirely possible. I think I was mentally combining Bart's posts with those of another poster (Brad?) on another thread about homosexual marriage.

Bart, if I've misconstrued what you are saying, I'm very sorry.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), November 20, 2003.