Gay rights

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why doesnt the cathloic people accept people for who they are its rediculis i am not aganist gay people

-- Patrick E Spawn (Taker@cliffhanger.com), July 30, 2003

Answers

The Catholic Church is not "against homosexual people". The Church reaches out to individuals suffering from this disorder, just as it reaches out to people suffering from all kinds of physical, psychological, and social pathologies. The Church provides more care for AIDS sufferers than all secular agencies combined. What you really mean of course, is why doesn't the Church fall into line with secular society's view of the homosexual lifestyle as something wholesome and acceptable? The answer to that is simple. First, the Church is committed to the truth. Secular society is not. And secondly, the Church genuinely cares about the welfare, temporal and eternal, of individuals afflicted with this disorder. Secular society does not. Secular society is committed to the broad concept of absolute license for people to do whatever they want to do, and is willing to allow individuals to destroy themselves temporally and eternally in order to attain that humanistic societal goal. Such a concept is obviously in direct opposition to the law of God, and incompatible with God's loving concern for His people, which is and always will be expressed and ministered through His Holy Church.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 30, 2003.

Amen, Paul!!!

By the way, I do think you are a very good moderator.

I just get frustrated sometimes.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), July 30, 2003.


Of course God loves EVERYONE, including gays, adulterers, murderers, EVERYONE! But He wants us loosed from the bonds of sin? Sin is a destroyer. It destroys households, families and SOULS!

The sin of homosexuality is no more grievious in God's eyes that adultery, or numerous other types of sins.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 30, 2003.


I don't really want to pal around with gays or be in gay cliques or clubs. My own faith could be negatively effected. If you hang around a barber shop your gonna get a haircut. I know a gay guy and have periodic conversations with him but we are not buddyroos. We don't call each other up.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), July 30, 2003.

homosexuality is not a disorder. No one has the right to judge anyone ,not even God. And that is why it does not condenm Homosexuals in the bible -because God does not judge ANYONE!

-- Kirsten (angel_chicks@hotmail.com), August 02, 2003.


New Age religions are nothing new, but are truly as old as the Bible. There is really nothing new under the sun. It has all been thought of before. Here is an apt description:

Romans Chap 1:25 - 32 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper

. . . . and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1 Cor 6: 9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR HOMOSEXUALS, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kimgdom of God.

Yes, we are all sinners in need of grace. Lord knows I have sinned, grossly, and if it were not for the Cross of Christ, I would still be in my sin!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 02, 2003.


Excellent!

BTW, Mike. I think that even a bald man would wind up with some sort of haircut.

No,no,no! I'm not bald yet.

rod.. .. .. ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 02, 2003.


Kirsten,

Read Romans

Joe

-- Joe (joebiltz@netzero.net), August 08, 2003.


"homosexuality is not a disorder."

It is a disorder just like Alcoholism is. And like alcoholism, some choose to deny that it is a disorder.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), August 08, 2003.


Homosexuality is not a disorder. A disorder is a trait or characteristic that impedes you from everyday life, like alcoholism, OCD, ADD and ADHD.

-- (...@...), November 06, 2003.


There are few disorders which impede a person from normal functioning in every aspect of everyday life. Homosexuality impedes a person's ability to form normal relationships either with members of the opposite sex or with members of one's own sex. Therefore it is a psychosocial disorder.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 06, 2003.

First, the Church is committed to the truth.

Tell me , what is the truth ??

I really don't understand the rcc , they say except everyone as they are , but some of them may not act the way they want , I'm not talking about criminals !! __ In my opnion the rcc discriminates some people without any acceptable reason , btw , there is no reason to discrimate people , discrimination is a sin and a crime !!

I do have 2 lesbian friends , what have they done wrong (to you) ?? __ If they wanna have sex , that's not mine or anyone else business , of course , except for those 2 lesbians !!

What would you do if a kid of you have a gay or lesbian friend(s) , and here I'm not about a relationship , just only friends !!

I don't really want to pal around with gays or be in gay cliques or clubs. My own faith could be negatively effected. If you hang around a barber shop your gonna get a haircut.

Why would your faith be negatively effected ??

I know a gay guy and have periodic conversations with him but we are not buddyroos. We don't call each other up

No one has said you do need gay friends or you have to look at them , a real friend doesn't care if (some of) his or her good friends is/are gay !! __ I accept gay persons as they are !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 06, 2003.


I really don't understand the rcc , they say ACCEPT (not except) everyone as they are , but some of them may not act the way they want , I'm not talking about criminals !! __ In my opnion the rcc discriminates some people without any acceptable reason , btw , there is no reason to discrimate people , discrimination is a sin and a crime !!

I do have 2 lesbian friends , what have they done wrong (to you) ?? __ If they wanna have sex , that's not mine or anyone else business , of course , except for those 2 lesbians !!

What would you do if a kid of you have a gay or lesbian friend(s) , and here I'm not about a relationship , just only friends !!

I don't really want to pal around with gays or be in gay cliques or clubs. My own faith could be negatively effected. If you hang around a barber shop your gonna get a haircut.

Why would your faith be negatively effected ??

I know a gay guy and have periodic conversations with him but we are not buddyroos. We don't call each other up

No one has said you do need gay friends or you have to look at them , a real friend doesn't care if (some of) his or her good friends is/are gay !! __ I accept gay persons as they are !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 06, 2003.


For those who don't understand Catholicism. Some points to consider:

1) You can move toward God or away from God (that is what free will is all about)

2) Some acts move you towards God and some away from Him

3) God has given us some guidance in Scripture as to which acts these are.

4) For some acts, God has placed into the person a 'concious' that tell the person which acts these are. This is generically known as 'natural law'. EVERY human being has this law and intuitively knows it.

5) Homosexual acts move you away from God. This is not only told to us in Scripture but also in natural law.

All the Catholic Church is doing is teaching us this fact of life. As She teaches us the facts of life in a lot of things that our socieity would rather not hear (like killing unborn kids is murder, etc.)

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), November 06, 2003.


The Catholic Church contradicts itself, it would like to have its cake and eat it too. The Church teaches that homosexual love is real and valid but that the expression of that love is wrong. This is nonsensical to an extreme and a blatently anti-Christian view! Christ taught us that thought and action are not seperate but intimately connected. If we desire death for someone we don't have to actually kill them to have sinned, the desire for their death is itself a sin! So if we work backwards using the same logic and teaching then if the feelings are good, then the actions that come out of these feelings cannot be bad, now can they.

Heterosexual people have sinful relations all the time as do homosexuals, the difference is that heterosexuals are given a venue through which to express this love lawfully, homosexuals are currently denied this. I use the word currently because the Church has allowed same-sex unions in the not so distant past and I believe that it will again in the future. In the mean time it is the state that has no business regulating marriages or unions, what have you, that is leading the way morally when it should be the Church doing so. Don't get me wrong, I agree wholly that secular society teaches many wrong things, more wrong than right in my opinion, and that the Church should fight these immoralities, but homosexuality is just not one of them, and who believes that it is is very far from God indeed.

I myself am a proud Catholic and I am gay and I deeply resent being stereotyped as an immoral person. I do not, nor have I ever, engaged in nonmarital sex, I do not frequent gay strip clubs or bath houses, nor do I enjoy pornography. I don't seduce children, or adults for that matter, and I most certainly don't have an illness or dysfunction whether psychological or otherwise. Intolerance is an evil, love is not. Though I honestly don't want to believe that anyone engaged in these debates is intent one spreading hatred, that is what some are doing nontheless.

Though many gay Catholics have given up on the Catholic Church I personally haven't for two reasons. The first is that I believe firmly that Jesus came to unite people not to divide them, so I remain steadfastly loyal to the heir to the throne of St. Peter, and second I hold out hope that the Church will once again recognise true love in all its forms. Until then I pray for that glorious day, may God answer my prayers sooner rather than later, but let be as he wishes.

Take care, D'Bomb.

-- D'Bomb (majstore@sympatico.ca), March 03, 2004.



Kristen,

You said, "No one has the right to judge anyone ,not even God."

I must disagree with you there. God doesn't want 'us' as human beings to judge one another, but He certainly has the right to judge everyone. God looks at the heart and is merciful when we express our sincere sorrow for our sins and His loving mercy will forgive us..but to say that not even God has the right to judge doesn't make sense to me...Perhaps you meant to word that differently.

If one is living a sinful life that doesn't please God, we will be judged for that if we do not repent of our sins. We must confess our sins if we want God's forgiveness.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 03, 2004.


"The Church teaches that homosexual love is real and valid but that the expression of that love is wrong."

A: I don't know where you are getting your misinformation, but the Church teaches what is has always taught, and always will teach - that homosexual attraction is gravely disordered, not "real and valid".

"if the feelings are good, then the actions that come out of these feelings cannot be bad, now can they."

A: Morality based on feelings is not morality at all. People feel good about committing immoral acts all the time. Why else would they commit them?? Valid morality is based on objective truth, which is what the Church teaches. How we "feel" about a particular act has absolutely nothing to do with its objective morality or immorality.

"Heterosexual people have sinful relations all the time as do homosexuals, the difference is that heterosexuals are given a venue through which to express this love lawfully, homosexuals are currently denied this."

A: Homosexuals are not "currently denied" anything. Homosexual unions do not meet the definition of marriage. They never did. They never will.

I use the word currently because the Church has allowed same-sex unions in the not so distant past and I believe that it will again in the future.

A: Are you serious?? The Church NEVER approved of homosexual relationships or homosexual acts because it CANNOT do so. Jesus guaranteed that the Church would teach the fullness of Christian truth, which leaves NO room for the slightest approval of homosexual activities.

"In the mean time it is the state that has no business regulating marriages or unions, what have you, that is leading the way morally when it should be the Church doing so."

A: The state regulated civil cotracts, including the civil aspect of marriage. It does so because marriage is essential to the welfare of the state. However, the Church regulates sacramantal Christian marriage because God has clearly revealed His will concerning marriage, and given the Church full responsibility for revealing and treaching that which is His will.

"I myself am a proud Catholic and I am gay and I deeply resent being stereotyped as an immoral person."

A: The Church does not teach that homosexual orientation itself is immoral. It is disordered, but not sinful unless one gives in to the tendencies and temptations that are the result of the orientation.

"I remain steadfastly loyal to the heir to the throne of St. Peter"

A: Good, for there alone will you find the fullness of God's truth.

"I hold out hope that the Church will once again recognise true love in all its forms."

A: It already does so.

-- (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 04, 2004.


The Church does teach that friendship is good, but remember, homosexual 'love' also connotates homosexual lust, which is disordered. See the Catechism.



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), March 04, 2004.


D'Bomb,
I would suggest you read the following from the Catholic organization 'Courage'. If you have any questions or rebuttles, feel free to write, we we try to answer them here as best we can although I don't think anyone here is from Courage so we would be replying as people who know a little about moral theology.

Courage FAQ

Remember ALL of us are called to chastity. That is to say to limit sex to marriage. It is not easy for any of us.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), March 04, 2004.


D'bomb claims homosex is "true love"? How can true love harm? auto- erotic, anal and oral sex DOES hurt the physical ecology of the human organism...and thus, is "unnatural".

nature doesn't mean "what is physically possible" but what helps the life-cycle of a living organism. So smoking and heavy drinking and addictive drugs are all possible...but harmful and thus are not evidence of "true love" for the body or one another.

If "friends don't let friends drive drunk" why do you suppose it would be a friendly thing to do to let friends hurt themselves - even if they really "feel" good about it?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), March 04, 2004.


homosexuality is not a disorder. No one has the right to judge anyone ,not even God. And that is why it does not condenm Homosexuals in the bible -because God does not judge ANYONE!

I woudl like to address the above.

God doesnt hav the right To Judge? I am sorry, tjats insanity. WE do not have the irght to Judge, but God certainly does. In fact,God will judge ALL og Crwation. The Binle said that everythign was given to be judged by Jesus. God himself grants rights, but cannot be granted rights, because h is where all rights dispence form, theorfore, it is illogical to say that he has no right to judge.

What ever possessed you to claim that God, who WILL judge everyoen who ever lived, has no right to judge? On what logical ground do you make he claim that the creator who kpows all and is all ppwerfil, has no right to judge that which is his?

As to the Bible, I am sorry, but the Bible in leviticus chapter 18:22 condemns it flat out. It is called an abomination.Likewise in COrinthians it is condemned. Rather or not you accpe this fact, or lse belive the lis you hear by hose who corrupt Gods word in order to excuse themselves form their sin, is up tp ypu, but the plain reasing of the text is obvious.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 04, 2004.


I agree that God and only God has the right to judge us. To address the Bible passages: first, they are open to interpretation, and second, prior to the King James version of the Bible there was no use of the word homosexual in the New Testament. It is a matter of interpretation and translation and unfortunately English can be somewhat limited when compared to classical Greek, Latin or other more antiquiated languages. As to the passage from the Old Testament, it is full of Jewish philosophies that revolve around the covenant and its preservation. If one does not procreate in Judaism, they break covenant and that is the woest offence a Jew is capable of. We are Christian and those doctrines don't apply to us, rightly so because Jesus complained about the Jews and their old laws because people obeyed them and where awful to one another all the same. That's why Jesus scraped the old law and gave us the law of love. Love God, ourselves and one another! We Christians are supposed to love one another. The key word is love. Homosexuality is in my opinion a very misleading word because it contains the word sex, which obscures what its true meaning should entail - LOVE! Love as long as it is true, is a gift from God because God is the only source of true love, good and pure. The expression of a love that is true therfore cannot be wrong, and I challenge anyone of good conscience to reason otherwise. All sexual acts done without love are sinful and harmful, however there is no evidence that a loving relationshhip based on mutual caring, concern and respect is harmful. Sex, if performed lovingly is not dangerous, whether homosexual or heterosexual. If it is done without regard for the person with whom you are making love then it can be very dangerous for both heterosexual and homosexual couples. It has nothing to do with sex at all!

Peace and Love!, D'Bomb.

-- D'Bomb (majstore@sympatico.ca), March 06, 2004.


Dear D B:
Why this? ''Homosexuality is in my opinion a very misleading word,'' No one opinion is relevant. We obey God, not any loose opinion from men. The words of the Old Testament prophets are GOD'S commands, not men. Leviticus 18:22 is God's Word, not some old Jew's opinion. Opposing God's holy Word because in ''your opinion'', something's really LOVE, which God says is an abomination, is foolishly assuming Divine authority. Want to know how God feels about your opinion? Jesus said it about another BOMB, who was happy with his life: ''Thou fool. This day they demand thy soul of you.'' We must all obey God. That is true LOVE.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 06, 2004.

D'bomb read this from catholic.com

Homosexuality

Every human being is called to receive a gift of divine sonship, to become a child of God by grace. However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex. The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law.

Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner.

Divine Law

The rejection of homosexual behavior that is found in the Old Testament is well known. In Genesis 19, two angels in disguise visit the city of Sodom and are offered hospitality and shelter by Lot. During the night, the men of Sodom demand that Lot hand over his guests for homosexual intercourse. Lot refuses, and the angels blind the men of Sodom. Lot and his household escape, and the town is destroyed by fire "because the outcry against its people has become great before the Lord" (Gen. 19:13).

Throughout history, Jewish and Christian scholars have recognized that one of the chief sins involved in God’s destruction of Sodom was its people’s homosexual behavior. But today, certain homosexual activists promote the idea that the sin of Sodom was merely a lack of hospitality. Although inhospitality is a sin, it is clearly the homosexual behavior of the Sodomites that is singled out for special criticism in the account of their city’s destruction. We must look to Scripture’s own interpretation of the sin of Sodom.

Jude 7 records that Sodom and Gomorrah "acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust." Ezekiel says that Sodom committed "abominable things" (Ezek. 16:50), which could refer to homosexual and heterosexual acts of sin. Lot even offered his two virgin daughters in place of his guests, but the men of Sodom rejected the offer, preferring homosexual sex over heterosexual sex (Gen. 19:8–9). Ezekiel does allude to a lack of hospitality in saying that Sodom "did not aid the poor and needy" (Ezek. 16:49). So homosexual acts and a lack of hospitality both contributed to the destruction of Sodom, with the former being the far greater sin, the "abominable thing" that set off God’s wrath.

But the Sodom incident is not the only time the Old Testament deals with homosexuality. An explicit condemnation is found in the book of Leviticus: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. . . . If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them" (Lev. 18:22, 20:13).

Reinterpreting Scripture

To discount this, some homosexual activists have argued that moral imperatives from the Old Testament can be dismissed since there were certain ceremonial requirements at the time—such as not eating pork, or circumcising male babies—that are no longer binding.

While the Old Testament’s ceremonial requirements are no longer binding, its moral requirements are. God may issue different ceremonies for use in different times and cultures, but his moral requirements are eternal and are binding on all cultures.

Confirming this fact is the New Testament’s forceful rejection of homosexual behavior as well. In Romans 1, Paul attributes the homosexual desires of some to a refusal to acknowledge and worship God. He says, "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. . . . Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them" (Rom. 1:26–28, 32).

Elsewhere Paul again warns that homosexual behavior is one of the sins that will deprive one of heaven: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9–10, NIV).

All of Scripture teaches the unacceptability of homosexual behavior. But the rejection of this behavior is not an arbitrary prohibition. It, like other moral imperatives, is rooted in natural law—the design that God has built into human nature.

Natural Law

People have a basic, ethical intuition that certain behaviors are wrong because they are unnatural. We perceive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal.

The same reasoning applies to the case of homosexual behavior. The natural sex partner for a man is a woman, and the natural sex partner for a woman is a man. Thus, people have the corresponding intuition concerning homosexuality that they do about bestiality— that it is wrong because it is unnatural.

Natural law reasoning is the basis for almost all standard moral intuitions. For example, it is the dignity and value that each human being naturally possesses that makes the needless destruction of human life or infliction of physical and emotional pain immoral. This gives rise to a host of specific moral principles, such as the unacceptability of murder, kidnapping, mutilation, physical and emotional abuse, and so forth.

To avoid the force of the natural law argument against homosexual behavior, some gay activists have offered a number of claims, which we will examine.

"I Was Born This Way"

Many homosexuals argue that they have not chosen their condition, but that they were born that way, making homosexual behavior natural for them.

But because something was not chosen does not mean it was inborn. Some desires are acquired or strengthened by habituation and conditioning instead of by conscious choice. For example, no one chooses to be an alcoholic, but one can become habituated to alcohol. Just as one can acquire alcoholic desires (by repeatedly becoming intoxicated) without consciously choosing them, so one may acquire homosexual desires (by engaging in homosexual fantasies or behavior) without consciously choosing them.

Since sexual desire is subject to a high degree of cognitive conditioning in humans (there is no biological reason why we find certain scents, forms of dress, or forms of underwear sexually stimulating), it would be most unusual if homosexual desires were not subject to a similar degree of cognitive conditioning.

Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive), the behavior remains unnatural because homosexuality is still not part of the natural design of humanity. It does not make homosexual behavior acceptable; other behaviors are not rendered acceptable simply because there may be a genetic predisposition toward them.

For example, scientific studies suggest some people are born with a hereditary disposition to alcoholism, but no one would argue someone ought to fulfill these inborn urges by becoming an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not an acceptable "lifestyle" any more than homosexuality is.

The Ten Percent Argument

Homosexual activists often justify homosexuality by claiming that ten percent of the population is homosexual, meaning that it is a common and thus acceptable behavior.

But not all common behaviors are acceptable, and even if ten percent of the population were born homosexual, this would prove nothing. One hundred percent of the population is born with original sin and the desires flowing from it. If those desires manifest themselves in a homosexual fashion in ten percent of the population, all that does is give us information about the demographics of original sin.

But the fact is that the ten percent figure is false. It stems from the 1948 report by Alfred Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. The study was profoundly flawed, as later psychologists studying sexual behavior have agreed. Kinsey’s subjects were drawn heavily from convicted criminals; 1,400 of his 5,300 final subjects (twenty- six percent) were convicted sex offenders—a group that by definition is not representative of normal sexual practices.

Furthermore, the ten percent figure includes people who are not exclusively homosexual but who only engaged in some homosexual behavior for a period of time and then stopped—people who had gone through a fully or partially homosexual "phase" but who were not long-term homosexuals. (For a critique of Kinsey’s research methods, see Kinsey, Sex, and Fraud, by Dr. Judith Reisman and Edward Eichel [Lafayette, Louisiana: Lochinvar & Huntington House, 1990].)

Recent and more scientifically accurate studies have shown that only around one to two percent of the population is homosexual.

"You’re Just a Homophobe"

Those opposed to homosexual behavior are often charged with "homophobia"—that they hold the position they do because they are "afraid" of homosexuals. Sometimes the charge is even made that these same people are perhaps homosexuals themselves and are overcompensating to hide this fact, even from themselves, by condemning other homosexuals.

Both of these arguments attempt to stop rational discussion of an issue by shifting the focus to one of participants. In doing so, they dismiss another person’s arguments based on some real or supposed attribute of the person. In this case, the supposed attribute is a fear of homosexuals.

Like similar attempts to avoid rational discussion of an issue, the homophobia argument completely misses the point. Even if a person were afraid of homosexuals, that would not diminish his arguments against their behavior. The fact that a person is afraid of handguns would not nullify arguments against handguns, nor would the fact that a person might be afraid of handgun control diminish arguments against handgun control.

Furthermore, the homophobia charge rings false. The vast majority of those who oppose homosexual behavior are in no way "afraid" of homosexuals. A disagreement is not the same as a fear. One can disagree with something without fearing it, and the attempt to shut down rational discussion by crying "homophobe!" falls flat. It is an attempt to divert attention from the arguments against one’s position by focusing attention on the one who made the arguments, while trying to claim the moral high ground against him.

The Call to Chastity

The modern arguments in favor of homosexuality have thus been insufficient to overcome the evidence that homosexual behavior is against divine and natural law, as the Bible and the Church, as well as the wider circle of Jewish and Christian (not to mention Muslim) writers, have always held.

The Catholic Church thus teaches: "Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357).

However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self- mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357– 2359).

Paul comfortingly reminds us, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).

Homosexuals who want to live chastely can contact Courage, a national, Church-approved support group for help in deliverance from the homosexual lifestyle.

Courage, c/o Rev. John Harvey St. Michael’s Rectory 424 W. 34th St., New York, NY 10001

-- David F (notanaddress@aol.com), March 06, 2004.


"I agree that God and only God has the right to judge us."

Good.But MaryLu didnt.That was addressed to her.

"To address the Bible passages: first, they are open to interpretation, and second, prior to the King James version of the Bible there was no use of the word homosexual in the New Testament."

The word Homosexual post dates the King James translation...it was coined int he 1800's, the KJV was form the year 1611. the word Homosexual doesnt appear in the KJV. However, the meanignis clear.

Likewise, you are wrong.The passages arent subjec toto interpretation,least of all Leviticus.I mean lets face FACTS.It flat out said that a Man Shall not lie with a man as with a woman, that it is abomination.detestable.No Matter WHICH Bible verson you use thi si the ONLY sane nd logical cnclusio form the text.

Paul's words in RTomans and Corinthians likewise are pretty dang clear.

What "Interpretation" Is eneded when its called flat out unnatural and wrong?

But hwn, from someone who thinks that the word Homosexual appeared first in the King James Bible...

"It is a matter of interpretation and translation and unfortunately English can be somewhat limited when compared to classical Greek, Latin or other more antiquiated languages."

Greek, Hebrew,and Aramiac.I speak hebrew.The elevitical law is clar. Likewise, I have a greek interlineri, and several concordances, and will be learnign Greek soon.

I dont need translatins.

"As to the passage from the Old Testament, it is full of Jewish philosophies that revolve around the covenant and its preservation. If one does not procreate in Judaism, they break covenant and that is the woest offence a Jew is capable of."

Not accordign to my Jewish Studies.Many Jews are physically incapabl of Procreation, and soem just don marry, and yet they arent in violation of Torah. Nor where they in the past, as some chose to remain celibate,a ndothers where unichs.See the Quamran society as an example.

"We are Christian and those doctrines don't apply to us, rightly so because Jesus complained about the Jews and their old laws because people obeyed them and where awful to one another all the same."

I don't know what Bile version you read, but this really isnt what Jesus complaiend about.He complained aout overt legalism. he complaiend about Hypocracy and false righeousness.He cmplaiend about a heart not tirned ot God but showing off nonetheless n religous devotion.But he also complaind about those NOT pbeyign the law.

"That's why Jesus scraped the old law and gave us the law of love. "

He didn't scrap it, he amended it.Jesus said hmself he came not to Destory the law.

also, yo overlook the New testement pasages, which clearly conden the behaviour.

"Love God, ourselves and one another!"

You somehow forget that Jesus said "Upon this the law an the prophets hang." This want some new innovation that replaced the law, ti eas the central theme of the law.

"We Christians are supposed to love one another. The key word is love."

Yes, but you perveryt the concept to Include lust and debauchdery.Unles you wantot extend this to mean I can "Love" a marired woman by sleepign eith her, because th aultary is miteated byt he love. Or that i can fornicate with 50 women, and be polyamourous, becase I "Love" all these girls... Real love sint about sex. its about commitment and genuine afection,a dnwllignness ot sacifice.

"Homosexuality is in my opinion a very misleading word because it contains the word sex, which obscures what its true meaning should entail - LOVE!"

Nope, its nto all about Love.Most Homosexual men are promiscuous even accordign to such teams as GLAAD. Many many many sex acts occure Homosexually every minuet, that are lust based, and not love based. Homosexuality is not about loivng another, its about the desire to have sex with them. I can love another man, and not wan tot have sex withhtem. I can love htem deep,y and turely, and stil no desire them physically.

Love Is not what we discuss when discussign Homoseuxality, rather we are disussing sexual behaviour, rahter it is a perverse expression of love between peopel of the same gender, or else if it is strictly Lust based.

"Love as long as it is true, is a gift from God because God is the only source of true love, good and pure. "

But good and true love, in its pure form, isnt sexual btu spiritual. It can be expressed sexually, but need not be. Homosexuality is an expression of a desire, and that dsire is usually Physical, and not relaly based on love at all, ven if you love the otherperson. and I remidn you, most homoseuxals dotn actusally Love their partner. even thos that do are pervertign the love by enaging in a destructve pracice hat shertens lifespan and cause serious mental deficiencies. ( Which dis;it ehte APA's approval of the conduct, they have well documented. Contrary tot heir constant denials.)

"The expression of a love that is true therfore cannot be wrong, and I challenge anyone of good conscience to reason otherwise."

OK, suppose a man sufferign form accute mental deminsia decides to Kill someone. This person is oneof his closest friends, and he is convneced hat by killing his firned, his firend, who has ha a hard time, recently fired fom his job, long term girlfirend left him, and is down on his luck, is bette roff dead.

so he murders, out of love and compassion, is firned.

That is wrong.yet things like that have happened.

Less exteeme. Suppose a woman Lies to her husband , claimignshe had been out shoping all day whe in reality she spent the day wiht another man, in his bed. Her lie is to protect his feelings, as well as her own position with him. its still a lie and wrong. Her love is perverted by her actions she chooses to express the love with.

Likewise Someone can love someone else, and decide to Lie tot hem toprevent them form learnign of soemthign else that has happened, perhaps a personal fault on the parto the liar. The liar is wellrepsected, an a hero tot he person he is lying to, and shoudl his misdeed be known, it willshatter the other persons confedence. It is therefore a perverse love that causes him to lie.

Love isnt wrong, but actuons base donlove that are themselves wrogn ar eperversions of love.

Love snt wrong, Homosexual expression is.

"All sexual acts done without love are sinful and harmful, however there is no evidence that a loving relationshhip based on mutual caring, concern and respect is harmful. "

Actually, their are studies that show that HCldrn raised by Homosexual coiples have a greater risk of beign Homosxual themselves, and worse sill, of havign serious mental instability in other areas. Likewise, Sudies shwo that mos Homosexual men do not form long term relationships. Most Lesians who do form emotionally Co-Dependant and innately unhealthy relatonships. Male Homosexals are more likely to cheat on a long term partner, and even ifthey dont, theirs is the greatest risk group for mental deterioration.

Then their is the disease queatsion.

"Sex, if performed lovingly is not dangerous, whether homosexual or heterosexual."

This is a joke.Medical science tells us that anal sex ( No mater if man or woman or manon man) Is innately dangerous.Increased riskof infection,and increaed risk of anal cancr. Check medical Journals.

Likewise, oral sex is innately riskful.

"If it is done without regard for the person with whom you are making love then it can be very dangerous for both heterosexual and homosexual couples. It has nothing to do with sex at all! Peace and Love!, D'Bomb"

You need to read up more... eterosexual sex, een casual fornicaton, is vastly superior to Homosexual sex in health stabndards.

its less risky diseasewise, and less likely tocause biological filures.

Commited heterosexal couplesar eht eleast mentally and physically at risk gorpoup in society.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 06, 2004.


D'bomb, You are mixing all kinds of ideas up. All sexual acts performed outside of marriage are sinful and harmful. It doesn't matter if you have heterosexual lusts, homosexual lusts, or both. Whether you feel kindness and friendship for someone you are having sex with or not, does not take away from the fact that you are acting outside of God's Law. It just means your not raping someone and compounding the sin. You need to explore what chastity is and what it really means to be married and to have sexual intercourse within marriage. Sexual intercourse is only in sync with natural law when the possibility of creating new life is present, which it is not in homosexual sex.

Again, that doesn't set you asside. WE ALL ARE CALLED TO CHASTITY.

I would suggest you start by reading the Catechism and going from there.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004.


All we can do is pray. Pray for these people who are trying to make homosexuality morally right. All we can do is continue to teach what God teaches us from our 2000 year old Catholic Church. The truth will prevail. We all will face Christ on judgment day so let us continue to pray for all the fallen and even ourselves.

On that day, for some, how terrible it will be. How shameful and fearful for them it will be. Tears come to my eyes for the lost. Just taking the persecution we get as we follow Christ like Christ took. He taught the truth and the world put him to death (all in God's plan though for mankinds salvation).

But how glorious that day will be for us who will be faithful until the end. Praise the Lord.

-- William (Ducin25@aol.com), March 07, 2004.


All we can do is continue to teach what God teaches us from our 2000 year old Catholic Church.

Than tell me , what was there before those 2000 years ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 08, 2004.


Judaism.Then abraham.Then Noah. Then enoch.Then adam.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 08, 2004.

It's all in the Torah :)

-bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson-nospam@Hotmail.com), March 08, 2004.


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