GROUNDS FOR ANNULMENT?

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GREETINGS, I WAS BORN AND RAISED A CATHOLIC AND SO WAS A FEMALE FRIEND OF MINE. SHE HAS 1 CHILD 18 YEARS OF AGE. SHE HAS BEEN MARRIED FOR 24 YEARS AND I HAVE NEVER BEEN MARRIED. SHE DESIRES A DIVORCE FROM HER HUSBAND AS HE HAS NOT BEEN INTIMATE WITH HER IN OVER 17 YEARS DUE TO NO FAULT OF HERS. HE IS "CAPABLE" BUT, NOT WILLING AND PROVIDES NO EXCUSES.HIS BEHAVIOR IS REFLECTIVE OF AN IRRATIONAL FEAR OF "GERMS" IN INTIMACY. THESE FACTS SHE WAS NOT AWARE OF AT TIME OF MARRIAGE. SHE HAS "HUNG IN THERE" FOR THE BENEFIT OF HER SON BUT, IS CURRENTLY AT HER WITS END. HE WAS RAISED BAPTIST, SHE CATHOLIC AS PREVIOUSLY STATED.THE MARRIAGE WAS PERFORMED IN A BAPTIST CHURCH AS THE LOCAL CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS UNDER CONSTRUCTION. OFFICIATING AT THE CEREMONY WAS BOTH A BAPTIST MINISTER (HIS CHURCH)AND CATHOLIC PRIEST. THERE WAS NO MASS SO-TO-SPEAK AND THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE REFLECTS A CATHOLIC MARRIAGE. ARE THERE OR DOES THERE APPEAR TO BE GROUNDS FOR AN ANNULMENT THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH? THANKS!

-- paul james (alawyr2b@netzero.net), July 29, 2003

Answers

paul,

Of what relavance does the fact that you were born and raised Catholic have to do with the matter -am I to assume adultery? -- please elaborate...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 29, 2003.


daniel,

why dont you get off your horse, its diseased anyway. this person comes looking for advice and says nothing about being interested in this person whom he notes as a FRIEND, and not a lover, and how do you respond? you try to throw adultery at him. there are times when judgement is acceptable (see homosexual activity = wrong) and times when it is not (see daniel hawkenberry = overjudgemental with no grounds).

why dont you try being truly catholic and not damning people without knowing the facts?

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 29, 2003.


paul,

Your grandiose declaration may be politically correct...

pull your head out of the sand -- in your fervor to judge my intent regarding paul's intent your pastoral blinders are self evident?

Reread the information posted -if you do not understand and have nothing further to contribute, so be it...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 29, 2003.


DEAR DANIEL, DEAR SIR, I APPRECIATE YOU STICKING UP FOR ME IN A SUBJECT THAT I AM ALMOST TOTALLY LOST IN. ALTHOUGH THE WORDING OF MY INITIAL INQUIRY MAY SEEM TO SOME AS HAVING A LOT MORE BEHIND IT THAN IS WRITTEN, ALL I AM INTERESTED IN IS THE FACTS THAT I MAY BE A HELP TO SOMEONE ELSE AND NOT A "CAUSATION FACTOR" OF ANY SORT. THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE!! ..............PAUL JAMES

-- paul james (alawyr2b@netzero.net), July 30, 2003.

Don't worry Paul, Mr. Hawkenberry has some serious problems, as I can assure you from the very limited interaction I have had with him. He probably can't help it and most likely means no harm. Let us pray that he gets the help he so desperately needs.

Regarding your question, I think your friend has to straighten out some facts before we begin talk of annulments. If she did not get a dispensation from form, then you may be dealing with a Defect of Form. I find it strange that a Catholic priest was able to officiate a mixed marriage in a non-Catholic setting, accompanied by a non- Catholic minister. There is something wrong there. I would bring up a possible Lack of Delegation of the priest. Those are two possibilities she should look into. You say the marriage certificate reflects a Catholic marriage - but is it a Catholic marriage certificate? Which Catholic parish is it issued from? Was the marriage entered into the books of that parish? I suggest your friend go to her local tribunal and find out what the normal procedure is there to open a case; then she should inquire into these questions and doubts. I have a feeling she was never really married in the Catholic Church to begin with. If it turns out that she was and that everything was in order, then she should pursue a formal trial for a possible declaration of nullity. I would say yes, there are possible grounds, but without more information I cannot really say which or what the likely outcome might be.

One final thought - is your friend separated from her husband? Are they still together? Because perhaps the problems can still be worked out with some additional effort. Of course, her husband has to be willing to do his part - because it sounds like the last 17 years they have been living a lie. Also, they were able to have at least one child together. So I suspect that the problem is much deeper than it may at first appear and perhaps your friend has to look more deeply into herself as well. You know the saying: it takes two... In any case, the best solution by far would be for both to seek help and find a way to work out their problems. Hope that helps. Good luck, my prayers are with you.

-- carlos (cvenlazalde@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.



DEAR CARLOS, I APPRECIATE YOUR RESPONSE. UPON FURTHER CLARIFICATION WITH THE PARTY INVOLVED, I FIND THAT SHE IS REGISTERED IN HER PARISH AND THAT SHE HOLDS A VALID CATHOLIC MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE.IT IS REGISTERED AT A PARISH IN McCLAIN, VIRGINIA AND ENTERED INTO THE BOOKS ALSO. SO, IT APPEARS IT WAS CATHOLIC ALL THE WAY AROUND.IN ANSWER TO YOU NEXT QUESTION, THEY ARE NOT SEPARATED AND ARE STILL TOGETHER, LIVING, BUT NOT "LOVING" EITHER PHYSICALLY OR OTHERWISE.SHE HAS BEEN TO COUNSELING BUT, HE REFUSES AND APPEARS TO "LAUGH IT AWAY".AS FAR AS THE POINT ABOUT "LIVING A LIE", LIKE I STATED BEFORE, SH HUNG IN THERE FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE CHILD WHOM HAS JUST TURNED 18.SHE HAS DONE ALL THAT SHE CAN BUT, TO NO AVAIL. SHE HAS TRIED FOR YEARS TO BE THE AGGRESSOR (SO-TO-SPEAK) IN THE PHYSICAL ASPECTS OF MARRIAGE, TO ELICIT SOME FORM OF ATTENTION FROM HIM, BE IT HOLDING HANDS, COMMENTS OF "GEE, YOU LOOK PRETTY", AN "I LOVE YOU" OR ANYTHING TYPICALLY IN A MARRIAGE AND EVEN TRIED TO DISCUSS THE ISSUES BUT, NO RESPONSE. SHE HAS LOOKED DEEPLY W/IN HERSELF AND AS SAID BEFORE, OBTAINED COUNSELING IN WHICH THE COUNSELOR HAS IMPLIED SHE SHOULD BE DIVORCED AND THAT THE PROBLEMS APPEAR TO BE ATTACHED TO HIM. UNDERSYTAND?........AGAIN, THANKS ALOT FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE!!

-- paul james (alawyr2b@netzero.net), July 30, 2003.

THE TEXT BELOW THE ASTERISKS IS WHAT I HAVE JUST RECEIVED IN MY E- MAIL AND I DON'T KNOW WHY! LOOK, I CAME TO THIS SITE FOR SOME QUALIFIED ASSISTANCE AND ALL I AM SEEING IS A LOT OF BACK BITING AND POT-SHOTS TAKEN AT THOSE ATTEMPTING TO GIVE ME THE HELP OR ADVICE I SEEK. I MYSELF REFUSE TO BECOME PART OF ANY DEROGATORY BEHAVIOR NOR DO I WANT TO GET MAIL WITH SAME AS IT CONTENTS!...CAN WE STICK TO THE ACTUAL FACTS IN MY SITUATION PLEASE? I THOUGHT THIS FORUM WAS TO HELP AND NOT HURT! THANK YOU..........PAUL JAMES ****************************************************************** ???

If the 'real' carlos posted the above -- then carlos, the error I imagined in your administration of truth is exponentially greater than first imagined... To dispense truth, one must know truth --this requires avoidance of filtering both in and out -your perceptions are quite tainted and unfounded in truth...

carlos, you are blowing in the wind...

Daniel

-- PAUL JAMES (alawyr2b@netzero.net), July 30, 2003.


????

hmmmm.... It should have posted -not emailed

carlos,

If the 'real' carlos posted the above -- then carlos, the error I imagined in your administration of truth is exponentially greater than first imagined... To dispense truth, one must know truth --this requires avoidance of filtering both in and out -your perceptions are quite tainted and unfounded in truth...

carlos, you are blowing in the wind...

Daniel

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 30, 2003.


Yes, look at how these Christians love each other...

-- carlos (cvenlazalde@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.

To dispense truth, one must know truth

ah, mr hawkenberry, if only you could follow your own advice instead of assuming the worst about everyone and damning every person who even considers the word *gasp* annulment.

mr james, by all means, pay no heed to daniel. his rantings of how broken the system is grow tiresome very quickly.

i dont know that there is any case for your friend to get an annulment. the fact that the marraige has lasted 17 years, and spawned children would make it difficult to prove that there was an existing lack of interest in the matters of marraige that could not have been brought to light long before now. it is possible that she could get an annulment, but if you want an answer from someone who is qualified youre going to have to speak with a canon lawyer on that issue, or someone else with proper credentials. at worst, if the man drives her insane she could seperate and live a chaste life.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 31, 2003.



paul,

The truth is one thing -your commentary, quite another...

Reread my post(s) -this time without your prejudice and pastorally warped blinders...

Hate in the name of compassion -good recipe paul...

-stick with truth...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 31, 2003.


GREETINGS ALL, BELOW THE ASTERISKS ARE THE 2 RESPONSES THAT WERE E-MAILED TO ME DIRECTLY AND I AM WONDERING WHY THEY WERE SENT AS OPPOSED TO POSTED HERE! I AM DONE WITH THIS SITE AS THERE IS MORE HATE HERE THAN I IMAGINED. SOME OF YOU PEOPLE (NOT ALL)SEEM TO HAVE TO BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME, EVEN AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP. I AM LEAVING THIS SITE DISGUSTED AND MORE CONFUSED THAN WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED. C'MON GUYS, YOU NEED TO CLEAN UP YOU ACT AND FOCUS ON THE TOPIC OF THE INFORMATION AND GUIDANCE REQUESTED AND NOT SPEND TIME "WHACKING" EACH OTHER AROUND OR, WITH UNDERLYING TONES, CALLING ME A LIAR OF SORTS! I ASSURE YOU GENTLEMAN, I AM NOT A LIAR. JUST AN INFORMATION SEEKER. HAVE A BETTER LIFE IN THE FUTURE THAN WHAT YOU HAVE DISPLAYED HER!!............PAUL JAMES

***************************************************************

Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org) responded to a message you left in the Catholic bboard:

Subject: Response to GROUNDS FOR ANNULMENT?

paul,

The truth is one thing -your commentary, quite another...

Reread my post(s) -this time without your prejudice and pastorally warped blinders...

Hate in the name of compassion -good recipe paul...

-stick with truth...

**************************************************************** paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com) responded to a message you left in the Catholic bboard:

Subject: Response to GROUNDS FOR ANNULMENT?

To dispense truth, one must know truth

ah, mr hawkenberry, if only you could follow your own advice instead of assuming the worst about everyone and damning every person who even considers the word *gasp* annulment.

mr james, by all means, pay no heed to daniel. his rantings of how broken the system is grow tiresome very quickly.

i dont know that there is any case for your friend to get an annulment. the fact that the marraige has lasted 17 years, and spawned children would make it difficult to prove that there was an existing lack of interest in the matters of marraige that could not have been brought to light long before now. it is possible that she could get an annulment, but if you want an answer from someone who is qualified youre going to have to speak with a canon lawyer on that issue, or someone else with proper credentials. at worst, if the man drives her insane she could seperate and live a chaste life.

[PS....THIS PERSON PAUL" **paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com)** SEEMS TO BE THE ONLY PERSON WHOM HAS THERE HEAD ON STRAIGHT!!!]

-- paul james (alawyr2b@netzero.net), August 01, 2003.


paul james,

This message below came in my email from another email other than the one posted here. Apparently messages do get sent automatically?

"IT MAY HAVE LITTLE OR NO RELEVANCE AT ALL HOWEVER, A LITTLE BACKGROUND INFORMATION DOESN'T HURT. IF I CHOOSE TO GET MARRIED TO THIS WOMAN, I'D LIKE TO HAVE A CATHOLIC MARRIAGE UNLESS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOESN'T CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, HOWEVER, I DO......................PLEASE ADVISE AS I WOULD THINK THAT IRRATIONAL PHOBIAS OF GERMS AS A RESULT OF INTIMACY AND NOT ACTING AS A SPOUSE IS BELIEVED TO ACT AND IGNORING THE "PHYSICAL" NEEDS OF THE OTHER SHOULD BE GROUNDS AS THIS MENTAL CRUELTY.......................THANKS AGAIN..............."

Was this from you or an imposter? Please confirm if so -- Then I can offer my opinion as yet unstated on the original question...

Daniel

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 01, 2003.


HERE IS ANOTHER RESPONSE (BELOW THE ASTERISKS) THAT WAS SENT DIRECTLY TO ME THAT, FOR SOME REASON ISN'T POSTED ON THI SITE!

***************************************************************

DEAR DAN HAWKENBERRY...................GO TO THE QUESTION ABOUT ANNULMENT UNDER THE NAME OF "PAUL JAMES" (THAT IS ME). PLEASE READ THE STRING OF MESSAGES AND RESPONSES I HAVE RECEIVED, OK?.............THANKS!

Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org) responded to a message you left in the Catholic bboard:

Subject: Response to GROUNDS FOR ANNULMENT?

paul james,

This message below came in my email from another email other than the one posted here. Apparently messages do get sent automatically?

"IT MAY HAVE LITTLE OR NO RELEVANCE AT ALL HOWEVER, A LITTLE BACKGROUND INFORMATION DOESN'T HURT. IF I CHOOSE TO GET MARRIED TO THIS WOMAN, I'D LIKE TO HAVE A CATHOLIC MARRIAGE UNLESS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOESN'T CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, HOWEVER, I DO......................PLEASE ADVISE AS I WOULD THINK THAT IRRATIONAL PHOBIAS OF GERMS AS A RESULT OF INTIMACY AND NOT ACTING AS A SPOUSE IS BELIEVED TO ACT AND IGNORING THE "PHYSICAL" NEEDS OF THE OTHER SHOULD BE GROUNDS AS THIS MENTAL CRUELTY.......................THANKS AGAIN..............."

Was this from you or an imposter? Please confirm if so -- Then I can offer my opinion as yet unstated on the original question...

Daniel

-- paul james (alawyr2b@netzero.net), August 01, 2003.


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