If Jesus was God, why was he baptized?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.
What need or requirement does Jesus need to fulfill if he is sinless and already knows God in order to be baptized? Baptism is for sinners who have repented and have accepted Jesus as their Savior, but why does Jesus need to be baptized
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 28, 2003
Jesus was baptized to fulfill legal requirements for entering into the priesthood.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 28, 2003.
What priest did was offer sacrifices to God on behalf of the people, and Jesus became The sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:21)
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 28, 2003.
Was Jesus only fulfilling a "legal requirement" when he was baptized? How does the established "priesthood" comply with God's law and the significance of Jesus's baptism?rod.. .. ..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 28, 2003.
rod,I wrote this on another thread (Do we need to be baptized to be saved) and it also applies here.
Jesus had NO sin, and He did NOT have to be baptized by John the Baptist to be saved because He had NO sin. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist in order to FULFILL all righteousness. In other words, Jesus was baptized because God the father COMMANDED baptism IN water. (See Psalm 119:172). Jesus gave us an example that we are to follow if we are to be His disciples.
Jesus before He ascended to the Father gave the disciples the Great Commission in that they were to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (Matthew 28:19).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 29, 2003.
John the Baptist's baptism was not Christian baptism. Early Christian converts who had previously received John's baptism were rebaptized.John did not claim that his baptism led to forgiveness of sins. Rather it was simply an initiation into a program of prayer and penance.
In Jesus's case, it marked the beginning of his public ministry. Also it was accompanied by a sign from Heaven of Jesus's mission.
-- __ (__@__.__), July 29, 2003.
Thank you Kevin for your answer.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 29, 2003.
John the Baptist's baptism was not Christian baptism. Early Christian converts who had previously received John's baptism were rebaptized.I did NOT say NOR did I infer that John the Baptist's baptism was Christian baptism.
John did not claim that his baptism led to forgiveness of sins. Rather it was simply an initiation into a program of prayer and penance.
Let's see if the word of God agrees with this statement. God said in Mark 1:4, "John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a BAPTISM of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS."
This most certainly states that John's baptism was FOR the remission of sins. There is NO mention of an initiation into a "program of prayer and penance". It was a baptism of REPENTANCE and there is NO mention of PENANCE for this is a Catholic term that is foreign to the word of God. The apostle Peter when he gave the first gospel sermon in Acts chapter 2 did NOT tell those people who asked "Men and brethren what shall we do?" to pray for salvation now did he?
rod,
You are welcome.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 29, 2003.
John's Baptism was not Christian baptism, nor was that which was practised by the disciples previous to our Lord's crucifixion. Till then the New Testament economy did not exist. John's baptism bound its subjects to repentance, and not to the faith of Christ. It was not administered in the name of the Trinity, and those whom John baptized were rebaptized by Paul (Acts 18:24; 19:7).(Easton Illustrated Dictionary)
-- __ (__@__.__), July 29, 2003.
Well actually, Kevin is more or less right. I will rephrase.It is the REPENTANCE that is for the remission of sins. The baptism is just a symbolic first step. In Jesus's case, no repentance was necessary.
-- __ (__@__.__), July 29, 2003.
Please visit this website:Who was John the Baptist?
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 29, 2003.
Kevin:"PENANCE ... is a Catholic term that is foreign to the word of God"2 Chronicles 7:14
And my people, upon whom my name is called, being converted, shall make supplication to me, and seek out my face, and do penance for their most wicked ways: then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sins and will heal their land.
-- __ (__@__.__), July 29, 2003.
2 Chron 7:14"if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."
Sorry -, there is NO mention of the word PENANCE.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.
I find your arguments truely facinating, I was curious as to your faiths. I am a young person and at this time am questioning the existance of God. I can't help but believe that God was created by early man because of man's desire to; know of something to come after death, and to believe that there is a higher power to watch over them in their time of need. I am preaching this and hope this has no effect on your faiths, but I request that you tell me what is wrong with my current beliefs so that I might return to living a faithful life.Thank you
-- -Jon- (atomicmidget45@hotmail.com), October 26, 2003.
Jon,
Welcome to our forum. Why do you doubt the existence of God? Have you been conversing with Atheists? Were (or Are) you a Christian?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 26, 2003.
Jon,You said, "I can't help but believe that God was created by early man because of man's desire to; know of something to come after death, and to believe that there is a higher power to watch over them in their time of need."
How do you know this is true???
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 26, 2003.
Hi Jon.I may ponder about man creating God and fine many rational arguments to support such a belief. You will find a plentiful supply of historical information to make that idea a reality. But, as you continue your search for man's creations, you would be more astounded in trying to figure out Who created man. It searching for man's Creator, you will come to a point of faith in God. Once you accept a firm belief in God, your new direction will take you further into the answers you seek. Those answers will lead you to a strong faith in Jesus Christ, if you allow that faith to grow.
rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 26, 2003.
The question asked by Jon about what are we...Well, this forum will consider me a Catholic, except for David; he calls me a "Romanist".
In the other forum, I may still be considered a Catholic. But, I would have a difficult time proving that I am. I suppose the day I die I will findout for sure. In the meantime, Jon, perhaps this may provide some insight:
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 26, 2003.
SACRED TRUTH :
THE ROCK ~
THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :
JESUS CHRIST'S BAPTISM
Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to "fulfill all righteousness." (Mt 3:15). Jesus' gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying (Phil 2:7). The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his "beloved Son." (Mt 3:16-17).
The baptism of Jesus is on his part the acceptance and inauguration of his mission as God's suffering Servant. He allows himself to be numbered among sinners; he is already "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." (Jn 1:29; Isa 53:12) Already he is anticipating the "baptism" of his bloody death (Mk 10:38; Lk 12:50). Already he is coming to "fulfill all righteousness," that is, he is submitting himself entirely to his Father's will: out of love he consents to this baptism of death for the remission of our sins (Mt 3:15; 26:39) The Father's voice responds to the Son's acceptance, proclaiming his entire delight in his Son (Lk 3:22; Isa 42:1) The Spirit whom Jesus possessed in fullness from his conception comes to "rest on him." (Jn 1:32-33; cf. Isa 11:2). Jesus will be the source of the Spirit for all mankind. At his baptism "the heavens were opened" (Mt 3:16) ~ the heavens that Adam's sin had closed—and the waters were sanctified by the descent of Jesus and the Spirit, a prelude to the new creation.
-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 28, 2003.
That would make sense considering that Jesus was man-God.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.
Maybe, Rod, a godly man. Jesus shows us the way to the Father in a more direct way.Kevin's point of that Jesus didn't sin is an early problem for the Church. If he didn't, why then, John baptized him? Mathew's answer: to fulfill all righteousness.
Zechariah talks about the anointed one coming one a donkey. I believe, Jesus baptism for Jesus was a sort of anointing, that is, being chosen for a mission.
Did Jesus sin? ?????? What is sin? According to the scriptures, the Pharisees and Saducees saw him as a sinner for violating the Law of Moses.
Jesus talked to women, was surrounded by women, was touched by women like the one with a menstrual flow, which in his days was an impurity. So, in his time, Jesus was considered a sinner.
Did Jesus feel something for women? Well, if you are a real man, you know there is no man who isn't affected by the sight of a woman.
Maybe there is a reason why Jesus said, whoever looks at a woman with desire, he has commited adultery in his heart.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.
Elpidio-Maybe there is a reason why Jesus said, whoever looks at a woman with desire, he has commited adultery in his heart.rod-But, if we are to believe that Jesus was without sin, then perhaps what He is actually saying is not what we interpret. Is it normal to view the opposite sex with desire? If so, is this truly a sin? Catholicism teaches that the sin is committed when the thought becomes that action in committing adultery. But, if we accept the verse as it is written, then all men are adulterers.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.
This is an extreme example : There was the story of a monk who was a desert hermit in the early centuries. He had to go to the city to meet with an important person. He was able to go back to the desert without lusting. How did he do it? He wore his hood over his head and looked straight at the ground all the time he was travelling and all the time he was in the city and only saw the feet of people.
-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 28, 2003.
If you are talking about "Saint Anthony", the friend of Athanasius, who died probably around 380 AD then, he also lusted. There is a story of him where he thins the devil has come dressed as a woman.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.
That story was about an anonymous monk. Everyone battles with lust.
-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 28, 2003.
Thank you all for responding so fast. I am Catholic and I haven't be speaking with atheists, I am just in a "lack of faith" period. I find myself questioning the existence of God. I am just looking for some kind of proof of the existence, something to confirm the beliefs I have been taught. I stumbled upon these threads for an answer for a homework question, but will continue contributing with pleasure.
-- Jon (atomicmidget45@hotmail.com), October 29, 2003.
Jon.Please! Iron out your faith before you become more involved in the world. There are many things in the world that can destroy your faith. Make every effort to understand what you have been taught. Know why you worship and how you worship. Do not become like me. I left the church around the time I enrolled into life/college.
Is there God? You probably not take anyones word, unless God came right down in front of you and winked. I wish He could do that, who wouldn't? But, we can see His creation;therefore, His existence is evident. One major proof of His existence is you.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 29, 2003.
Hi JON,Peace be with you.
I hope this helps:
THE ROCK ~ THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :
PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
In the 13th Century, St. Thomas Aquinas, a philosopher and a Catholic Dominican priest, explained how the human mind seeks different kinds of truth. He said that
SCIENTIFIC TRUTH (also known as empirical truth) is known by observation and experimentation. So, for example, you know that fire is hot by burning your finger with a lit match.
PHILOSOPHICAL TRUTH is known by using human reason. You know that two plus two equals four, for example. So if two chairs are in a room and someone says, “I’ll get two more,” you know by using reason that the total will be four chairs. You don’t need to count the chairs after they arrive.
THEOLOGICAL TRUTH, known only by Faith, is the Final and Highest level of Truth. It can be observed, and it can’t be reasoned; it must be Believed by Faith ~ taken on God’s Word, because He revealed it.
The Catholic First Vatical Council (1869-1870 A.D.) taught that by using human reason, certain Truths, like the Existence of God, are attainable on your own power but that you also need the intervention of Supernatural Revelation to know all you need to know to be Saved.
Saint Thomas Aquinas also delineated Five Proofs for the Existence of God in a monumental work called the Summa Theologica. Since the Vatican I taught that the human mind can know some things of religion on its own without having to depend on Divine Revelation, it’s good to see the example given by St. Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas reasoned that humans can prove the Existence of God through motion, causality, necessity, gradation, and governance. Granted, you may not be able to persuade an atheist to become a missionary priest this way, but these proofs are still pretty compelling.
PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD THROUGH MOTION
Before you were conceived in your mother’s womb, you were merely a potential being. You didn’t become real, or actual, until the occurrence of the act that created a new human life.
Likewise, at one time, everything now in existence was merely potential, because everything has a beginning. In other words, to get to the actual here and now, you first must have an actual beginning ~ a start. So at some point, all human beings ~ and all things ~ never were.
Some force had to start the motion from potential existence to actual existence. And that force could never have been potential itself; it always was, is,and shall be. Otherwise, that force would’ve had to be started by some other force, which would’ve had to be started by some other force, and so on. This means that an actual beginning would never have been. And, again, the here and now must have an actual beginning.
Before the Big Bang, when the universe was only potential, what force started the motion for it to become actual and real? St. Thomas said that the force is God, the Prime Mover ~ moving the potential universe into becoming the actual one.
PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD THROUGH CAUSALITY
My mom and dad caused me to be born, just as yours did. Our grandparents caused our parents to be born. And so on. So every cause ws first an effect of a previous cause. So if you go all the way back to the beginning of everything, something or someone had to be the cause of all causes.
Just as the force that started the motions from potential existence to actual existence could never have been potential itself, the cause of all causes could never have been the effect of a previous cause. In other words, the cause of all causes was never an effect but always a cause ~ or as philosophers put it, an uncaused cause. St.Thomas said that uncaused cause is God. He caused everything to be by starting Creation in the first place.
PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD THROUGH NECESSITY
The universe would not blow up or crash to a screeching halt if you had never been born. This is a real ego-popper.
No one individual is necessary. Everything in the universe is basically contingent on ~ dependent on ~ something else to exist. Think of it this way: if you turn off a light switch, the flow of electricity to the light bulb is cut off. Without the electricity, you don’t have light. If God removed his Being from sustaining you, you’d be like a turned-off bulb.
One being must be necessary in order to keep the contingent (unnecessary) beings in existence. Otherwise, nothing would exist at all. St. Thomas said the necessary Being is God.
PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD THROUGH GRADATION
Existence and being have different levels:
Look at inanimate matter, like rocks. They represent a basic level of existence. They’re just there.
The next level is plant or vegetative life ~ simple but able to reproduce.
Farther up is animal life. It can reproduce and grow like plant life, but it also has sense knowledge. Animals can detect information from their eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and so on.
Next is human life, which can do all the stuff animal life can, as well as reason rationally. And human life has a free will.
Moving along the hierarchy of being is Angelic life ~ pure spirits with no body. Angels are superior to men and women in that their minds have all the knowledge they will ever have all at one time and their minds are much more powerful than the minds of mere mortals, too, because they’re not distracted by having a body. Without bodies, they never get sick, never feel pain, and never need food or sleep or shelter. They’re immortal and as pure spirits have power over the material world.
The final and ultimate level of existence is a Supreme Pure Being who has no beginning and no end. St. Thomas said that this Supreme Being is God. Like Angels, God has no mortal body but is pure spirit, but unlike angels, He has no beginning whereas He created the Angels. Unlike Angels, who have limited knowledge and power, God has Infinite Power, which means that He’s Omnipotent; He has Infinite Knowledge, which means that He’s Omniscient; and He’s Everywhere ~ He’s Omnipresent.
PROOF OF EXISTENCE OF GOD THROUGH GOVERNANCE
Ever wonder why the earth is just the right distance from the sun and has just the right balance of gases to maintain an atmosphere that supports life? The balance is delicate, much like the ecosystem in which plants produce oxygen and animals produce carbon dioxide that keeps their machines running.
The planets rotate and orbit at fixed rates instead of crashing into one another. The fundamental laws of physics, chemistry, and biology must be followed; otherwise, life wouldn’t exist. These facts point to a Higher Intelligence ~ a Being that made these physical laws, because they didn’t just happen on their own.
Nature tends to go from order to chaos. Who put things in order to begin with? A Higher Intelligence is indicated when you study how human DNA is intricate and orderly and consistent. Rather that being mere chance, life on earth is no mistake, and it follows a plan. St. Thomas said that the Great Governor is God.
The bottom line is that the Existence of God is reasonable and that Faith doesn’t contradict or oppose reason. Rather, it complements it. ~ Father Trigilio
JON,
The Most Holy Catholic Bible says : For what can be known about God is evident to people, because God made it evident to people. Ever since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes of Eternal Power and Divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what He has made. (Roman 1:19-20)
God Bless you. You are in the True Eternal Visible Church of Jesus Christ. Always Stay Catholic; do not be dissuaded. The Fullness of the Truth and the Fullness of the Means of Salvation is in the Most Holy Catholic Church. May you Grow in your Catholic Faith. May you continue to partake of the Real Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist, Through the Intercession of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint Joseph, In the Name of Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen.
-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 29, 2003.
This is what the Bible says about the existence of God:"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." (Hebrews 11:1-3).
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 30, 2003.
Hi Kevin.But, how do we convince and atheist when the atheist rejects the Scriptures? Basically, an atheist would laugh in our face; they have habitually laugh in my face and look at me as if I'm some fanatical fool.
Those atheist have to be beaten with their own athei-ology. They have to see, feel, and taste their tangible world before they can every begin to sense their spiritualness. Hopefully, they can then accept the Scriptures as the truth.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
And.....I need to learn how to spell before they can understand me.Sorry.
rod...
...
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
rod,Here are some good starting points:
Some Athiestic Arguments Answered
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 30, 2003.
Oops,Scratch # 2 Authority in Religion, I used the wrong address.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 30, 2003.
Hey, Jon.Think for a minute, a) how many of your dreams have come true? b) Or How many of your friends or family dreams have come true?
If you have some that have come true, then analyze this: a) The future doesn't exist now. So how come the dreams about the future came true? How were we able to see the future? Answer: because we have a spirit. Flesh cannot go through time, the spirit can. b) What is the spirit? the living light which comes from God. The flesh and the Spirit make up the soul. When the Flesh dies, the spirit continues. We are no longer a soul, as some think. c) That is why we should worship God in Spirit and truth.
God always sends messages or meessengers to let you know what will happen. Or he will let you see it.
On rare occasions God speaks to you directly. If he does, is for a mission. Examples: Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Jesus...men at least 30 years or older, who have been tested already. God wants to make sure we will not fail him. That is why doesn't call or appear to everyone who asks. Unless
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
Hi Elpidio.Your explanation has revealed something that I had never considered. I wrote a very rational explanation for premonitions and dreams that dealt with the subconscience mind connecting with the conscious mind. It never dawned on me that I was speaking about our spiritualness connecting with the Holy Spirit, in some cases.
God did send me a message. Most people ridicule or refute my "event". I took it very seriously. I'm still in awe as to why I should dream of a word that does not exist in any language that I have investigated, so far. It can only mean that God sent that sequence of characters for me to act on--"Chranel". It seems more and more to signify the following: Christ, Angel, Elohim.
rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
I still remember that thread in the Catholic forum. It took more than 20 pages. Chranel is a place for bones. Yet, this is the first time I see a different interpretation for it by you.This could mean, Christ is the Angel(messenger) of Yahweh (El or Elohim in Genesis, Exodus...).
Nice going, Rod. Remember the Book, the light,...Chranel...you are gettng closer to your destination about learning about God himself.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
It could also read as Christ-Angel-Eloi. In spanish it would mean the same--Cristo-Angel-El. And, if my theology is correct, this acronym can only mean the Son, the Holy Ghost, and the Father. Placed in the correct order, then:the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
Ah! we posted at the same time.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) cannot be the messenger(angel in Greek).Let me show you why: Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Taken from the Blue Bible.
There are two messengers: the first in bold, is John the Baptist. The secod in Bold is Jesus. There is no mention of Holy Spirit. Jesus says in John that he will send the Spirit of truth (we now call Holy Spirit).
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
So, Rod, you see why I still think Jesus(Christ) is the angel (messenger) of God(El).
-- Elpidi Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
"Chranel"- Christ the Angel of God. But, this would have to re-interpret the meaning of "Angel". Jesus cannot be an Angel; Jesus is God. Yes, I do know about your theological view of Christ.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
Jesus is the SON OF GOD, Rod.He was flesh like you and me. He was conceived the same way as you and me. He was born the same way as you and me.
That is why Paul in each of his letters mentions God and Jesus separately at the beginning of each letter. Never does he say Jesus is God. Example: Romans ( from Blue Bible) Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
-- Elpidi Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
Ok.....the Blue Bible? The main word in question is "seed". The word I find in the Jerusalem Bible is "descendant", which may have a different meaning from "seed".rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
Hi, Rod, the Blue Bilbe says seed (Grek sperma). By getting the passage and clicking on C, you get this: Concerning [4012] peri his [846] autos Son [5207] huios Jesus [2424] Iesous Christ [5547] Christos our [2257] hemon Lord, [2962] kurios which [3588] ho was made [1096] ginomai of [1537] ek the seed [4690] sperma of David [1138] Dabid according [2596] kata to the flesh; [4561] sarxThey have lied to you and to many of us. That is why you try this section of the blue Bible. It gives you a word by word translation.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
Ok, Elpidio. I'm getting that anxious feeling again. "Chranel" is making itself more pronounced. "Christ Angel of Eloi" would be in accordance with the references you've submitted.I dislike when this kind of stuff starts to happen, again.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
But humans have no idea what will happen tomorrow or the day after. The fact that your dreams might come true has nothing to do with you having any ability to see when or how this might come to be. I feel that it is solely due to your actions which are driven by your emotions.
-- Jon (atomicmidget45@hotmail.com), October 30, 2003.
The last one was toElpidio Gonzalez
-- Jon (atomicmidget45@hotmail.com), October 30, 2003.
Hi Jon.I need to find my essay on dreams, then I'll post it. It is way to rational the way I've interpreted my premonitions. I've had way too many coincidences in my life to say that it is impossible to predict the future. The last one I had was Sunday, the beginning of this week. I dreamt that my co-worker and I had opened a private lessons business. We were taking students, but I had to take some of hers. The dream is over. The next day at school, she is absent. I quickly realized that her students would meet after school. I quickly had the school announcements tell her students to meet with my students after school, so to reduce confusion and scheduling problems. During my lunch break, it hit me like a ton of bricks. My dream foretold what would happen at school with my co-worker's students. I listen to my dreams; I've been told not to listen. I just can't help it. The dreams are too real. I should listen.
rod.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
Hi Jon.Elpidio is going to reply to your comments by referring to the prophets and their dreams and prophecies. Humans used as messengers.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.
What do you think of this?rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 31, 2003.
You are talking about 99.99% of humans , Jon. who have dreams which are created by our own anxieties, problems, and so forth.It is hard, Jon, to find a human who doesn't have a dream which comes true.
Of those which become, some dreams are literal, some are symbolic, some are half symbolic and realistics, some are nightmares, and in some you hear voices.
The Bible is about dreams, Jon.
Examples:Abraham, the father of our faith, had dreams where he was told to go to a place we now call Israel. He was even told to sacrifice his son, God tested him.
Joseph, his grandson was told about his future rise as a very powerful person to whom even his brothers would bow down. It happened.
Moses was told by God to go back to Egypt and take his people out. He did.
From Samuel the Prophet to Malachi, every prophet's words are from dreams he/she had.
You hear voices. Voices which tell you hat would happen. I started hearing them in 1986.
I also began to tell people what would happen to them when words just came out of my mouth without me thinking about it.
I prophesied that way the death or attacks on 15 of my students. 3 are still alive even though they have been shot at. 2 survived the attacks. 10 are dead for ever. 7 at my present school are dead after telling them. It takes about 3 years or less for that to happen. Total: 29 people are dead of those I have mentioned. Some include grandparents, uncles, in-laws', friends, students,...
Finally, Jon, I talked vboth to God and to Jesus. At 17 I asked God if he really existed. If he was Jesus himself, to let me know.
I saw them both in the same dream, which I had in 4 parts. God , whose name is Yavé is totally different than Jesus. God is full of light. Jesus isn't. Yet, Jesus also has a lot of power. He told me for three years it wasn't going to rain hard in my area of San Bernardino (2000-20003). It didn't rain hard.
That is one of the reasons that lately in the news you hear about fires in Los Angeles, San Bernardino, and San Diego. They are all next to each other. The dry weather has created this fire conditions as Jesus told me.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 31, 2003.
Elpidio, do you recall the dreams I told you about that dealt with fire and the three men involved? I still haven't had it revealed to me yet. Your interpretation may have some truth to it, but I think there may be more. We'll see. I doubt it has anything to do with the California fires, though.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.
Let me lok for it, again.The only fire has come from Eugene, John Gecik ,and Paul M.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.
If I recall, that dream happened right before Hussein's sons were killed.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.
Rod and Elpidio Gonzalez:Isn't it possible that when people have dreams they go out of their way to see that the dreams come true. Most people would want their dreams to come true to support an idea of being able to see the future. What I am saying is that someone might act to make their dream come true, even go out of their way to make their dream happen just to see it happen. Just to reinforce an idea of seeing into the future.
-- Jon (atomicmidget45@hotmail.com), November 03, 2003.
Hi James.Yes, that is very possible and probable. I do agree with the idea that some may go out of their way to make a dream play out in real life. On the other hand, I did not wish to have the people die in the Causway collapse. The night before I dreamt flooding in my living room. There is an old Mexican belief that dreams about water means tears or death. The following moring I heard the news of the Causway accident and about those who were killed. I've had many "conincidental" dreams/events. I don't go out of my way. It just happens. I don't keep a log book or journal, but I do remember what I've dreamt and experienced. I don't see this as something unusual or supernatural. I believe that dreaming has new some significance to understanding our experiences. Everyone dreams, but not everyone listens to its meanings.
This is all I'll have to say about dreams and stuff. I know that the majority will not understand. I do know that Elpidio and a few others have a mutual understanding for what we share in dreaming.
rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 03, 2003.
Ooops! I wrote that to Jon, but I addressed it to James. Sorry, I was awake when I typed that message.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 03, 2003.
Let me put it this way, Jon,If you knew someone from your family was going to die in a car accident, get shot, or die a plane crash, for examle, will you let them die?
You see, I don't want many times the dreams to come true. If people prove me wrong I look stupid. Yet, deep inside, I believe God allowed me to change someone's life.
In my dreams most of the time I am told by male voices what will happen.
There is athread in the Catholic Forum about the Pope. In it, I say that in my dream I am told the Pope is going to make 2 more trips of 4. At first I understood it as meaning only 2. That was in April 22, 2003. Since that time, the Pope made trips to Spain, Croatia, slovenia, the one to Mongolia(cancelled), Slovakia, and Pompey ( six or five if one doesn't count the cancelled one).
So in my reinterpretation of the dream, 4 and 2 is 6. That is 4 planned and 2 more.
When the Pope was saying goodbye and climbing on an airplane high into the skies, all of a sudden my attention focused on Bush. He was making a press conference. It seems he gets shot. Everybody runs. I don't see The President anymore. The bodyguards searach for the shooter.
The 3rd of the dream part was my mother. My mother also said goodbye. In my dream she was living next to my sister in law. Lately, my sister in Law and her are very close. They didn't talk before as much. So part of that dream came true so far.
Usually Jon my dreams have a 1 year window, that is, they come true within one year. That is, the must come true before april 22, 2004.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.
True.
-- Jon (atomicmidget45@hotmail.com), November 09, 2003.
Just wanted to mention, it's June 26, 2004.I wouldn't gamble on any horses based on your dreams. ;)
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 26, 2004.
Hey Max, thanks for brining this tread up. I'll be sure to mention it to him when he comes back from Vacation.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 26, 2004.
Also Max, you might be interested in checking out our other forum.http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 26, 2004.
Baptism does not save anyone. Only the blood of Jesus can do that through faith. When Jesus was crucified on the cross there were two criminals on each side of him. One of the criminals railed on him saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. The other criminal on his other side rebuked him and said this man has done nothing amiss. What did Jesus say then? He said Verily I say unto thee, TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise. That criminal did not come down off that cross and get baptized and get nailed to it again. No, it was his faith that saved him. Baptizing is a public profession of ones faith. You are identifying your self with Christ death, burial and ressurection.
-- craig davison (craig_or_diana_davison@hotmail.com), September 22, 2004.
There are debates as to where that comma should go." He said Verily I say unto thee[,] TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise."
OR " He said Verily I say unto thee TODAY[,] shalt thou be with me in paradise."
Anyway, Why would Dismas need Baptizing in the usual way? He was in the presence of Christ his Saviour.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.
there are two issues here to consider.first you are assuming that Paradise = Heaven, in which case this is an example of a baptism of desire. a quite explicit desire, it would seem, on the part of St Dismas.
but we also know that, between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, Our Lord descended into Sheol (aka Hades) ie Paradise <> Heaven. "On the third day he rose again..."
that supports Rod's point about the misplaced comma.
what is clear is that St Dismas is in Heaven.
what is also clear is that the unususal set of circumstances surrounding St Dismas' physical death cannot be used as a basis for dismissing the asolute necessity of baptism in all usual circumstances, because Scripture is clear on the point.
this we have known for c.2,000 years.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), September 23, 2004.
Jesus HAD to be baptized because:- 1) As correctly identified here he had to lead the way for the future Sons of God (The Bride of Christ) to be taken out of the human race during the Gospel Age (now). 2) The main reason (and never stated anywhere), is that by right Jesus would have been been raised again in a fleshly body. As Yahweh God said In the day you sin you will (begin) to die. Jesus did not sin and had no right to die. So he would be risen again as he was (in the flesh). BUT Jesus was to be raised in a spiritual body (not subject to death) to be like he was before he came on earth to assume responsibility (from Satan) for his creation. So he HAD to cast off his 'old fleshly body' through baptism and live IN FAITH that his Father in Heaven would raise him again in this spiritual body. Remember now Jesus was living in faith - he had too! - if he sinned now he would die like the rest of us now and God would not be able (through observance of his universal laws) to raise his son again. Also we would not have that 'once-only to use pass' through death that is available to ALL humans. But that is only the beginning!I hope this answers your question.
I have spent 10 years answering all the problems that people have on the understanding the Bible and amassed some 400 pages detailing this. It will be all on my website called FUTURELIFE.ORG when it goes on- line in about 1 months time - please visit it - you may find it interesting!
-- Mark Smith (Please_contact_me_now@hotmail.com), October 09, 2004.
Welcome Mark.Are you a Catholic, Protestant, Messianic, ....unitarian,..
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.