Baptismal Regeneration

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Only the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin (1 John 1:7; Colossians 1:14). Water just gets us wet. Anyone who claims that one must be baptized to be saved is a false prophet. This amazing article will answer any questions you might have.

Baptismal Regeneration?

Christ commanded His original disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel (Mk 16:15). Those of every nation who believed in Christ as their Savior were to be baptized "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Mt 28:19). These new disciples were to preach the gospel everywhere and to baptize those who believed (v 20) through their testimony as Christianity spread worldwide.

Baptism in the early church was by immersion: "they went down both into the water....[W]hen they were come up out of the water" (Acts 8:38-39), etc. Why? Because baptism symbolizes the believer's identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection: "we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead...we also should walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4).

Unfortunately, various innovations and heresies were gradually introduced regarding baptism: that one must be baptized to be saved; indeed, that baptism itself saves the soul even when administered to infants. These heresies became known as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Most Protestants holding these beliefs today are not aware that they originated with the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages.

The Council of Trent (1545-63) stated that while Christ "merited for us justification by His most holy passion...the instrumental cause [of justification/regeneration] is the sacrament of baptism....If anyone says that baptism is...not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."1 Vatican II (1962-65) reconfirms all of Trent2 and reiterates the necessity of baptism for salvation,3 as does the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church released by the Vatican in 1993: "Baptism is necessary for salvation...the Church does not know of any [other] means...that assures entry into eternal beatitude...." 4

Trent anathematizes all who deny that "the merit of Jesus Christ is applied...to infants by the sacrament of baptism" or who deny that by baptism "the guilt of original sin is remitted...." 5 Today's Code of Canon Law (Canon 849) declares that those baptized are thereby "freed from their sins, are reborn as children of God and...incorporated in the Church." Canon 204 states: "The Christian faithful are those who...have been incorporated in Christ through baptism" and are thereby members of the one, true Catholic Church.6

For centuries before the Reformation, baptismal regeneration was rejected by Bible-believing Christians, whom the Roman Catholic Church therefore persecuted, tortured and slaughtered by the millions. Non-Catholics taught from Scripture that baptism was only for those who had believed the gospel: "teach all nations...baptizing them [who have believed]" (Mt 28:19); "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized" (Acts 2:41); "[W]hat doth hinder me to be baptized?...If thou believest [in Christ] with all thine heart, thou mayest" (Acts 8:35-37). Infants can't believe in Christ.

Consider Cornelius's household: they heard the gospel, believed it and were baptized. That there were no infants baptized is also clear, for they had all gathered "to hear all things that are commanded thee of God" (Acts 10:33). "[T]he Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard [and, obviously, understood and believed] the word" (v 44); and they spoke with tongues (v 46). That they had "received the Holy Ghost" (v 47) convinced Peter that they were saved. Therefore, he baptized them (v 48).

Nor can infant baptism be supported from the case of the Philippian jailor who "was baptized, he and all his" (Acts 16:33). Again there were no infants present because Paul and Silas preached the gospel "to all that were in his house," (v 32) and "all his house" believed (v 34) and were then baptized.

The early Reformers such as Martin Luther were Catholics who, unfortunately, retained some Catholic dogmas, among them baptismal regeneration and infant baptism. These heresies are still held by some Protestant denominations today. The issue is a serious one. If baptism is essential for salvation, then to reject that gospel is to be damned. But if salvation is through faith in Christ alone, then to add baptism as a condition for salvation is to reject the true gospel and thus to be eternally lost. The Bible declares that it is wrong to teach salvation by faith in Christ plus anything else, such as keeping the Jewish law (Acts 15:24). Paul cursed (anathematized) those who taught this false gospel that damns the soul (Gal 1:8-9). A gospel of salvation through Christ plus baptism is equally false.

The essentials of the gospel When Paul reminded the Corinthians of the essential ingredients of the gospel which he preached and by which they had been saved, he made no mention of baptism (1 Cor 15:1-4). In fact, he distinguished between the gospel and baptism: "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor 1:17). He hadn't baptized most of the Corinthians, couldn't remember whom he had baptized, and was thankful that it had been very few (1 Cor 1:14-16)—a strange attitude if baptism is essential to salvation! Yet without baptizing them, Paul declared that he was their father in the faith: "in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor 4:15).

Then what about Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"? All who believe the gospel are saved, so of course all who believe and are baptized are saved; but that does not say that baptism saves or that it is essential for salvation. Scores of verses declare, with no mention of baptism, that salvation comes by believing the gospel: "[I]t pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor 1:21; see also Jn 3:16, 18, 36, 5:24; Acts 10:43, 13:38-39, 16:31; Rom 1:16, 3:28, 4:24, 5:1; 1 Cor 15:1-4; Eph 2:8, etc.). Not one verse, however, says that baptism saves.

Numerous verses declare that whosoever does not believe is lost, but not one verse declares that whosoever is not baptized is lost. Surely the Bible would make it clear that believing in Christ without being baptized cannot save if that were the case, yet it never says so! Instead, we have examples of those who believed and were saved without being baptized, such as the thief on the cross and the Old Testament saints (Enoch, Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, et al.), to whom Christian baptism was unknown.

It is essential to realize that some baptismal texts do not refer to Christian water baptism, but to one of the seven other baptisms in Scripture. There was the baptism of the Israelites "unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Cor 10:2); the "baptism of John" (Mt 21:25; Mk 11:30; Acts 19:3, etc.), which was a baptism "of repentance" (Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3; Acts 19:4, etc.); the baptism attributed to Christ before the cross_"Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples" did the baptizing (Jn 4:1-2; 3:22); the baptism Christ had to endure of suffering and death_"I have a baptism to be baptized with" (Lk 12:50; Mt 20:22; Mk 10:38, etc.); the baptism Christ now performs on His own "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" (Mt 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:33; Acts 1:5, 11:16); the baptism by the Holy Spirit "into Jesus Christ" (Rom 6:3; Gal 3:27) and thereby "into his death" (Rom 6:4; Col 2:12); and the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the church, the one body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13).

Then why does the Bible say, "There is...one baptism" (Eph 4:4-5)? The explanation is simple but carries profound consequences: Baptism of any kind occurs only once and is never repeated. In that sense, then, there is only one baptism. Whether one believes that baptism itself saves, or that it symbolizes salvation through identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, the fact that it cannot recur proves that one's salvation can never be lost. For if one must get saved again as a result of losing one's salvation, then baptism must be repeated each time—but there is only one baptism.

The dogma of "falling away," like baptismal regeneration, also comes from Roman Catholicism. No Catholic can be certain he is saved; for salvation, which in Catholicism is by works, could be forfeited at any time by failure to continue to perform the works prescribed. Trent declares, "If anyone says that in order to obtain the remission of sins it is necessary... to believe with certainty...that his sins are forgiven him, let him be anathema....If anyone says that he will for certain...have that great gift of perseverance [in the faith] even to the end...let him be anathema."7 While rebaptism is not practiced in Catholicism, the sacraments of penance and the Mass are said to restore saving grace and are thus repeated endlessly.

Understanding the meaning Yes, but Romans 6:4 states, "[W]e are buried with [Christ] by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead...even so we also should walk in newness of life." That Paul is not speaking of water baptism, however, but of the spiritual reality it symbolizes, is clear, for he says that through baptism "our old man [sinful nature] is crucified with him [Christ], that the body of sin might be destroyed." As a consequence, he urges believers to "reckon" themselves "to be dead indeed unto sin....[l]et not sin therefore reign in your mortal body" (vv 6-13).

Paul uses similar language concerning himself when he says, "I am crucified with Christ" (Gal 2:20). He is obviously speaking of that same spiritual "baptism" by which we have been placed in Christ and have thus passed with Him through death into resurrection life. If we were literally dead to sin, then we wouldn't need to "reckon" it true or live the new life by faith; we would automatically never sin again. That a Christian may sin shows that water baptism doesn't effect a literal crucifixion with Christ. It portrays a spiritual baptism into Christ which the believer must live by faith.

In that context, then, we can understand Peter's declaration, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pt 3:21). He is no more saying that the physical act of baptism literally saves us than Paul is saying that it literally makes us dead to sin. The few difficult isolated verses such as these cannot contradict the overwhelming number of other Scriptures which are crystal clear. Water baptism, says Peter, is a "figure" or symbolization of a spiritual baptism into Christ effected by the Holy Spirit and which is settled forever in heaven but which must be lived out by faith while we are here upon earth.

Significantly, though Paul baptized a few, Christ never baptized anyone (Jn 4:2)—very odd if baptism saves. The Savior of the world must have deliberately avoided baptizing to make it clear that baptism has no part in salvation. Yes, Christ said we must be "born [again] of water and of the Spirit" to be saved (Jn 3:5), but it is unwarranted to assume that "water" here means baptism. To do so would contradict the wealth of Scripture we have seen which proves salvation is not by baptism.

Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a rabbi to whom "water" would not mean baptism (which was unknown in Jewish law) but the ceremonial cleansing of someone who had been defiled (Ex 30, 40; Lv 13, 15, etc.). And that is what Christ meant. His death would make it possible to "sanctify and cleanse [His church] with the washing of water by the word [of the gospel] (Eph 5:25-27). Christ said, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken" (Jn 15:3). Like Christ, Paul put water and the Spirit together, referring to the "washing of regeneration" and linking it with the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Ti 3:5). We are born again by the Holy Spirit and by the Word or gospel of God, which is sometimes called "water" because of its cleansing power. As Peter said, we are "born again...by the word of God" (1 Pt 1:23).

It was obviously this figure of Old Testament ceremonial cleansing which Peter communicated to his Jewish audience in his Pentecost sermon: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). It is clear from the many other scriptures we've given that Peter wasn't saying that baptism saves, but that it offered a ceremonial cleansing uniquely applicable to his Jewish hearers. To be baptized was to be identified before the fanatical Jews of Jerusalem with this hated Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior. Baptism cost family and friends and endangered one's life, as it still does in Israel and Muslim countries. Those who are afraid to take this public stand in such cultures are even today considered not to be true believers. Thus for a Jew to be publicly baptized at that time in that culture was, in a sense, to "wash away [his] sins" (Acts 22:16), as Ananias told Saul.

"[T]he gospel of Christ...is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth [it]" (Rom 1:16). That gospel as Paul preached it required faith in Christ's blood poured out in death for one's sins on the cross and said nothing about baptism. To preach baptismal regeneration is to preach a false gospel that cannot save, which is why Paul cursed those who did so. The difference between faith in Christ alone and faith in Christ plus baptism has eternal consequences. Let us stand firmly for and preach the true gospel that saves.

Dave Hunt

H.J. Schroeder, trans., The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (Tan Books, 1978), 33, 53.

Vatican Council II, The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, Austin Flannery, O.P., General Editor (Costello Publishing Company, 1988 rev. ed.), 412.

Ibid, 365.

Catechism of the Catholic Church (The Wanderer Press, 1994), 224, 320.

Trent, op. cit., 22, 23, 54.

Code of Canon Law (Paulist Press, 1985), 122, 614.

Trent, op. cit., 44.



-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 25, 2003

Answers

No David, I do NOT believe in baptismal regeneration. I am NOT suggesting that the water has any merit NOR that submission to baptism somehow causes the individual to earn their salvation. Water is merely the substance that God designated to be the DIVIDING LINE between the LOST and SAVED.

God frequently operated in just such a fashion throughout Bible history. For example, Naaman had to be immersed seven times before his leprosy was cleansed (2 Kings 5:14). According to your logic, he was healed by RIVER REGENERATION!!!

The blind man was required by Jesus to have mud placed on his eyes and then to go to the pool of Siloam and wash it off to regain his eyesight (John 9:6-7). Again, your doctrine of "faith only" requires them to call his healing POOL REGENERATION!

Here is the heart of error of Calvinism and FAITH ONLY. It insists that if humans have to do anything, then salvation is not by grace.

But that conclusion is simply FALSE!!!

Neither Naaman nor the blind man felt their compliance with divinely stipulated acts constituted working for their salvation or in some way meriting the subsequent blessing. They understood that their healing was due totally to the grace and compassion of God. So it is with water baptism.

If baptism is as important as I am making out [and it is], if it is when we become saved [and it is] and God forgives our sins, then wouldn't you just expect the devil to set up every argument he could against the need and necessity of baptism? Would you not expect him to resist and attempt to persuade the world that one does not need to be baptized into Christ? He does not just roll over and die without a fight. And if we were to consider what arguments to use to deceive people what arguments would they be? They are the EXACT same arguments that you make.

It is a grave mistake to remove the essential necessity of baptism from the gospel message! Jesus started His public ministry by being baptized Himself and He ended it by commanding the Apostles to baptize and teach disciples as they went into the entire world.

There are many people who have a deep and sincere faith in Christ. Yet, because the Word of God does not capitulate to the teachings of men, these people are being held at the "one yard line" by error (to use a phrase from the sport of American football). Though they sit on the doorstep to the kingdom of heaven, they have not yet entered in. If Jesus were on the earth today I believe Christ would say something like, "You are not far from the kingdom of heaven. You lack this one thing. Go and do this to fulfill all righteousness." Do not be like the foolish who, though they were at the very door, remained locked out.

Christ died a painful, excruciating, humiliating death for us. Consider the words of Isaiah the prophet concerning the Christ. All Christ asks is we be baptized into His name to experience His resurrection and victory over death (and then follow Him for the rest of our life). He died alone on that cross and was separated from God for us. Being unified with Him in His death is the only way to be unified into His life. Baptism is a simple and easy thing to do. It is time to put aside human teachings and traditions of men and follow the scriptures alone as our sole source of truth.

Don't let the devil hold you at the one-yard line. You are so close. Get over that line. Being baptized is such a small thing. It takes a few moments. God has done so much for us and does not ask for much in return. Being baptized is a small thing to do in return. Christ set us an example Himself, and He commands it as well. It is the perfect measure of faith and action working together. Faith that God will forgive your sins and add you to the kingdom of heaven and to His body and new life.

David, If one is already saved prior to being baptized, then why does one need to be baptized at all??? If FAITH ONLY is what saves, then there should be NO NEED to be baptized according to your doctrine.

Jesus commanded his disciples first to make disciples of all nations, then He explains HOW this is done by "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Anyone who tells you that you do NOT have to be baptized to be saved is a liar, and the truth is NOT in him. (1 John 2:4).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 25, 2003.


The Matter of "Baptismal Regeneration"

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 28, 2003.

Actually, you are both wrong. Baptism is not even necessary today. In fact, it is a slap in the face of Christ. Here's an excerpt from an article found on line concerning the Dispensational view. Scofield, of course, was a dispensationalist, and was also one of the godfathers of the "rapture" teaching, of which we can all certainly be thankful.

Water Baptism - a Dispensational Viewpoint

(It is recommended that the study on "Basic Dispensationalism" be consulted, if necessary, as a supplement to this study on water baptism. Some concepts, which are only mentioned in this study, are more fully explained there)

Prelude to understanding the scriptural purpose of water baptism

Today, during the "dispensation of the grace of God" (Eph.3:2), Uncircumcised Gentiles are saved through the fall of Israel (see Ro.11:11). However, the fact that the Gentiles could ever be acceptable to God through Israel's fall was never even suggested in any Old Testament prophecy. Instead, prophecy always portrays the sanctification of Gentiles through the exaltation of Israel, rather than through her fall (see Is.2:1-4; Is.27:13; Micah 4:1-3; Zech.8:20- 23; Zech.14:16). Nor was such a possibility even implied in the Four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. As a result, Old Testament prophecies have temporarily been interrupted today, by the unprophesied salvation of Gentiles through Israel's fall.

In addition, water baptism is no longer necessary today (1Cor.1:17), although it was absolutely required at one time for believers in the house of Israel (Mk.16:16; Acts 2:38). Nor does the word "baptism" always imply water baptism. For example, some three years after His baptism by John the baptist, the Lord stated that He would experience yet another future baptism (Luke 12:50), and water played no role in that baptism. In Luke 12:50, then, the Lord was referring to His imminent baptism into death upon the cross. Likewise, believers today are also baptized into the death of Christ (see Ro.6:3), having "put on Christ" (Gal.3:27); and water baptism is not necessary for this to occur. Instead, our baptism into the death of Christ occurs when we are baptized by the Spirit of God into the body of Christ (1Cor.12:13).

Some believers, though, may not realize this present "dispensation of the grace of God" (Eph.3:2) was never the subject of prophecy. Yet the fact that prophecy has temporarily been interrupted (by the unprophesied salvation of Uncircumcised Gentiles through the fall of Israel, as in Ro.11:11) actually shows that God now accepts men who He would never have accepted during the Four Gospels, or even during the early portion of the book of Acts. Although Jesus Christ is "the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb.13:8), He does not always place the same conditions upon all believers in every age (or dispensation). In fact, the Lord Jesus Christ has actually changed certain conditions that were previously placed upon believers in the early portion of the New Testament scriptures, and this is clearly illustrated by the fact that circumcision is no longer necessary for believers today, as it was at one time.

For example, even as late as Acts chapter 10, certain meats (pork, catfish, shellfish, etc.) were still "common" or "unclean" to the Jews. At that time, Peter received a vision regarding Cornelius, who was an Uncircumcised Gentile that blessed Israel by giving "much alms to the people" (see Acts 10:2). Since the Law prohibited the Jews from eating unclean meats (Lev.20:25-26), Peter naturally abhorred these meats, even in Acts chapter 10. On this occasion, though, the Lord informed Peter for the first time that He had cleansed these meats (Acts 10:15). By doing so, the Lord then used these meats as an example to Peter that Uncircumcised Gentiles such as Cornelius were also sanctified, even though these Gentiles were previously considered to be unclean (like the meats). In Acts chapter 10, then, the Lord Jesus Christ did not change, as verified by Heb.13:8. Instead, since it had previously been unlawful for the Jews "to keep company, or come unto one of another nation" (Acts 10:28), the Lord simply changed the requirements He placed upon believers: Suddenly, He no longer required men to be circumcised.

For another example of why Christians today should not necessarily observe every commandment the Lord gave to His followers, the Lord Jesus Christ even instructed a man to offer an animal sacrifice, after healing the man of leprosy (Mt.8:1-4, compare Lev.14:1-7). But the practice of offering animal sacrifices should never be observed by Christians today, even though the Lord Himself commanded for it to be done at one time. Consequently, we cannot simply take every commandment that the Lord gave to His followers in the Four Gospels, and apply all of them to Christians in the church today. Instead, we must first determine whether these commandments are even relevant for this present dispensation of the grace of God.

Such, too, is the case with water baptism. Once again, the Lord Jesus Christ is the same today as He was "yesterday", according to Heb.13:8. However, as shown by the above examples, the Lord no longer places the same requirements upon men that He once did, even in the New Testament scriptures. As a result, we are to base our beliefs not only upon what the Bible teaches; we must also be careful to determine whether the doctrines and practices we claim were even written to Christians today. We should therefore heed the instructions which Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles (Ro.11:13; Ro.15:16), wrote by inspiration to the church today. And Paul himself wrote that Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1Cor.1:16-17; see below).

Indeed, water baptism originally filled a specific need in the life of the Jewish believer at one time. The ordinance of water baptism actually originated as an Old Testament obligation for priests, being necessary before they could minister unto the Lord (for example, see Ex.30:17-21, in which the priest was required to "wash with water"). This ordinance of washing (or baptizing) the priest was then carried over into the early days of the New Testament, since the nation of Israel was (and still is) destined to become a kingdom of priests (as the Lord had promised in Ex.19:6; compare Is.66:21). As a result, the Jews who believed in Christ were required to be washed (or baptized) with water for salvation (Mark 16:16), as the priesthood required (see also Ex.40:12; Lev.8:6; Lev.16:24; etc.).

Moreover, baptism "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) only applied to circumcised believers, and remained in effect until Peter received his revelation concerning Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. And even then, Cornelius was not saved through the fall of Israel, as we are today (Ro.11:11), since he "blessed" Israel by giving "much alms to the people" (see Acts 10:2). Since the Lord had earlier promised Abraham that in his "seed" all the families of the earth would be blessed, and since Abraham's plural seed turned out to be the house of Israel (see Gen.26:4; Gen.28:14, and compare Num.24:9), the house of Israel was indeed the "seed" through whom the Lord blessed the nations at that time. During the Four Gospels, then (as well as during the early portion of the book of Acts), this present "dispensation of the grace of God" (Eph.3:2) had not yet begun, since the Jewish believers were required to be circumcised and baptized, and only Gentiles who blessed the nation of Israel (Abraham's plural seed) had any hope at that time.

However, even though Paul himself also baptized certain believers during the early portion of his ministry, he also stated that Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1Cor.1:17, see below). This was because Israel temporarily fell from the Lord's favor (Ro.11:11) when the Lord sent Paul to the Gentiles (Ro.11:13). As a result, since the Lord had temporarily forsaken Israel, just as He had prophesied (Is.54:7), her future inheritance as a kingdom of priests (Is.66:21) was also placed on hold at that time.

Consequently, since Gentile salvation is now through the fall of Israel (Ro.11:11), water baptism no longer plays the same role that it once did. Instead, all believers (even uncircumcised Gentiles who have never blessed the house of Israel) are now baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12:13), and not by water. Indeed, when Paul preached the gospel, he was not sent to baptize, as he writes in 1Cor.1:16-17 -

16: And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Accordingly, since Christ sent Paul to preach the gospel, and not to baptize, then the gospel which Paul preached did not require water baptism. Otherwise, Paul could not have made a pointed distinction between baptism and the gospel he preached. And since Paul was not sent to baptize, then he was not under the instructions that the Lord gave to the other apostles (Mt.28:19-20; Mk.16:16), which did require water baptism "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38).

Although it is true that Paul also baptized certain believers in the early days of his ministry, we must be careful not to draw the wrong conclusion from this. Paul also circumcised Timothy (see Acts 16:1- 3), even after contending with the other apostles that circumcision is no longer necessary (Acts 15:1-21). Paul, then, did not circumcise Timothy because the Lord required it. Instead, Paul circumcised him "because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek" (Acts 16:3). In other words, Paul circumcised Timothy of his own volition, instead of by the Lord's commandment. We therefore should never endorse the practice of circumcision, or the practice of water baptism, just because Paul performed them at one time.

Likewise, Paul also took a Jewish vow associated with animal sacrifices (Acts 21:23-27), thereby placing himself back under the Law, as well. In Acts 21:26, Paul actually joined himself with certain Jews who believed, but who were also "zealous of the law" (verse 20), having shaved their heads (verse 24). Consequently, an "offering" was to be "offered for every one of them" (as in Acts 21:26; compare Numbers 8:7-8). Yet Paul took this Jewish vow, which was associated with animal sacrifices, after he had written his epistles to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, and Thessalonians! Animal sacrifices, though, were certainly not necessary at that time. Paul, then, must have performed circumcision and endorsed the practice of animal sacrifices by using his own free will, instead of by commandment from the Lord, since such practices are quite contrary to the doctrines that he himself wrote. In like manner, since he also stated in 1Cor.1:17 that Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, then Paul must have also baptized certain believers using his own free will, as well. Otherwise, by practicing water baptism, how could Paul be carrying out the Lord's instructions in the first place, if Christ sent him not to baptize?

We should therefore avoid endorsing any religious practice simply because Paul performed it at one time, whether it involves water baptism, animal sacrifices, or circumcision. As we have seen, there are many Bible doctrines which, although they may indeed be scriptural, should not be observed by Christians today. Even though the Lord never instructed Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, to baptize anyone at any time (1Cor.1:17), His instructions to the 12 apostles definitely included water baptism (Mt.28:19; Mk.16:16; Acts2:38). Thus, it is only when we recognize the distinctive ministry and message of the apostle Paul that we can fully understand the true purpose of water baptism, and the role that it played.

As we shall see, then, since Paul was sent to the Heathen, while the other apostles confined their ministries to the nation of Israel (Gal.2:7-9), the requirement of water baptism changed, as well. Today, Uncircumcised Gentile believers are not destined to become a kingdom of priests, as the nation of Israel was in Exodus 19:1-6 (again, compare Is.66:21, in which Israel's priesthood pertains to the New Covenant, just as it did to the Old Covenant).

In addition, this writer understands why some readers may not agree with certain statements that are put forth in this study, having "been there" at one time himself. He would, however, like to challenge the skeptical readers to compare their own beliefs to the ideas in this study, and then compare both to what the scriptures themselves teach. The reason for doing so is because the Bible itself should always be our final authority in all matters of the faith. We should never believe anything just because our church teaches it, or because Grandma believed it, or because it just feels like the right thing to do. If we cannot give any scriptural reason for believing the way we do, all we have is simply an unfounded opinion.

For example, one popular (although unscriptural) belief is the often- repeated statement that water baptism is simply a public profession of faith. Although this certainly may sound good, there is absolutely no scriptural evidence whatsoever to support such a statement. Nowhere in the Bible can we find any record of anyone who was baptized as a public expression of their faith.

Here's the entire link for your perusal. Water Baptism - a Dispensational Viewpoint

Nonny

-- Nonny (anony@yahoo.com), July 29, 2003.


Actually, you are both wrong. Baptism is not even necessary today. In fact, it is a slap in the face of Christ.

No Nonny, it is you who are mistaken about Baptism not being necessary. Please review this website.

The New Birth: Its Necessity and Composition

Also visit this website which shows the error of the 1 Corinthians 1:17 argument concerning baptism.

Is Baptism a "Gospel Obligation"?

As for Cornelius and how he was saved, please visit this website:

Was Cornelius Saved Before Being Baptized?

You are right about one thing:

For example, one popular (although unscriptural) belief is the often- repeated statement that water baptism is simply a public profession of faith. Although this certainly may sound good, there is absolutely no scriptural evidence whatsoever to support such a statement. Nowhere in the Bible can we find any record of anyone who was baptized as a public expression of their faith.

Please check out this website:

A Rose is a Rose; Or is it?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 29, 2003.


Unfortunately, you're all wrong. ;)

Baptism is not a work we do. Baptism is a work God does.

Those who claim we must "do baptism" in order to be saved, don't realize that we don't "do baptism" - baptism is something that HAPPENS TO US.

And, those who claim we "do baptism" simply as an outward profession of faith, don't realize that that we don't "do baptism" - again, baptism is something that HAPPENS TO US.

If Baptism is something that HAPPENS TO US, then who is the one doing this HAPPENING?

If someone baptizes you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, then it's not you or the minister that does the Baptism - it's Almighty God.

Baptism doesn't CAUSE forgiveness. Baptism CONVEYS forgiveness.

Baptism doesn't wash away DIRT. Baptism washes away DOUBT.

Baptism doesn't MAKE you forgiven. Baptism MARKS you as forgiven.

Baptism isn't a sign of YOUR promise to God. Baptism is a sign of GOD'S Promise to you.

Where did you receive God's personal Word of acceptance into His Kingdom?

An altar call? Not in Bible. Sinner's prayer? Not in Bible. Introspection? Not in Bible. Shaking minister's hand? Not in Bible. Speaking in tongues? Not in Bible.

The only point that God openly declares you forgiven individually and personally is at Water Baptism.

CONSIDERED forgiven by FAITH in CHRIST DECLARED forgiven by BAPTISM into CHRIST CONFIRMED forgiven by SPIRIT of CHRIST

As for being saved by Baptism, we are saved by Baptism as much as we are saved by reading the Bible or hearing the gospel preached - except it's more personalized. It's not the water, it's the Promise (Word) of God in the water that counts.

Baptism is the physical vehicle that brings God's Promise to you, just as the paper and ink of a Bible brings God's Promise to you, or the audible sound waves of a preacher bring God's Promise to you. The great thing about Baptism is how personalized and individualized it is. The Bible and preaching are generalized to all humans or the Church. Water Baptism is God's specific Word to YOU!

Baptism says, "You're forgiven because of what Jesus did!"

In the end, you can value Baptism as an individualized/personalized Word of God that you receive by faith or you can despise it as an empty man-made symbol or a work of righteousness required for salvation.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 22, 2004.



You are almost there Max..,

Baptism occurs in the heart the moment you are born-again and washed anew by the Word....

When you receive Christ into your heart and confess that He is Lord., repent of your sin and accept Christ as your Savior--you are washed clean by the blood of the cross...by His wounds, we are healed., saved.

The water ritual simply signifies a deeper spiritual truth....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 22, 2004.


Almost Faith,

We are born again the moment we are buried in baptism and raised by the Spirit, our hearts cleansed by pure water.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), June 22, 2004.


>Baptism occurs in the heart the moment you are born-again and washed anew by the Word.... <

And the Word of God is openly expressed to us through preaching and individually in Water Baptism.

>When you receive Christ into your heart<

Is this accomplished by a so-called sinner's prayer which is not found in scripture? I don't think Pater said, "Repent and pray this prayer after me..."

>and confess that He is Lord.,

Confessing Jesus as Lord is evidence that you've ALREADY been born again and have received the Holy Spirit. Nobody can call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit. Confessing Him as Lord is not a means of becoming born again. (No scripture support.) Again, only those who are born again can sincerely confess this ultimate revelation.

>repent of your sin

Stop disbelieving in Christ, yes.

>and accept Christ as your Savior

Is this the same as "receive Christ into your heart" as you already stated above?

>--you are washed clean by the blood of the cross...by His wounds, we are healed., saved. <

So, we need to do all these man-centered works... praying, repenting, and confessing Jesus as Lord in order to be born again? I'm one of those old-fashioned people who believes in the old reformation idea of "Faith alone saves, not our works."

>The water ritual simply signifies a deeper spiritual truth....

Yep! Baptism openly signifies this deep spiritual truth: that God Promises to accept you as His child because of what Jesus did.

It's not your promise in water baptism that counts for anything, it's God's Promise that counts. God's the one doing the work, not us.

Thankfully, I'm already there - not almost. ;)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 22, 2004.


Max,

What church do you belong too? Baptist? PCA? OPC? Are you reformed?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 23, 2004.


er, Lutheran?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 23, 2004.


Yes Luke.,

But this happens spiritually.

The water ritual that we perform simply represents this truth, but it in itself--is not that magical moment.

I know this because we don't choose to even be baptized until it has occured in our hearts.....

-- Faith ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


Max..,

I agree with most of what you say--and I think you might misunderstand me.

I do not believe in works to save us., though I do know that God refers to *believing* as a work--the only work of God that can save.

The moment you believe--you have received, confessed and repented all at the same time--and you are born-again. It happens in a moment. I know--because it happened to me. That was my moment--which I later expressed before my congregation in a full-body emmersion baptism.

But that was not my defining moment. My defining moment had happened years before, when I knew that God was true and saw Jesus through the Word of God--and fell on my face.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


I don't doubt you were justified when you believed. However, if it took a year to get Baptized, that is not in keeping with the biblical model of Baptism. How could you believe Christ's Word and refuse yourself the water? All the Apostles considered it something to be done immdiately. If you were familiar with the Word after coming to faith in Christ, or had actual teachers of the Word who knew the significance of Baptism, you would have been baptized sooner. Remember how quickly the subject of Baptism came up between the Ethiopian and Phillip? What about Paul's Baptism?

Again, I do not doubt you were justified upon believing in Christ, but you certainly robbed yourself of the benefits of Baptism - including Christ's personal Word of forgivness, etc.

Your feelings are not the solid evidence that you are forgiven. God's Word is the evidence. Otherwise, what happens when you don't have good feelings? or what if your faith is weak some days? Does that mean God's forgiveness is gone? No.

God's Word of forgiveness is expressed in Baptism. You may have gotten Baptized as a way to express to the world your personal faith, but you ought to now consider your Baptism as more than your work, it was God's work, in His Name, formally and openly declaring you forgiven because of what Jesus did. Accept His Word by faith.

Many people misunderstand the value of their Baptism. It's never too late to learn its value and treat it accordingly. ;)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.


Max

You give the water ritual far too much power. Salvation comes the moment you received the Word/Christ by faith.

Water baptism is very real--but it occurs before we perform the symbolic act. The symbolic act is not what saves. Even Jesus was baptised. And remember that the thief on the cross was not.

My life changed the moment I believed and received Jesus. Not a year later when I was baptised in church.

The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Christ. John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


>You give the water ritual far too much power. <

I don't give it any power. Christ gives it power, through His resurrection.

>Salvation comes the moment you received the Word/Christ by faith. <

Yes.

>Water baptism is very real--but it occurs before we perform the symbolic act. The symbolic act is not what saves. Even Jesus was baptised. And remember that the thief on the cross was not. <

We've been over these points already. The thief heard Christ's Promise personally. We hear Christ's Promise personally in Baptism.

>My life changed the moment I believed and received Jesus. Not a year later when I was baptised in church. <

Again, I do not doubt your experience as valid. But, it's not right that you had to wait a whole year before you allowed your "forgiven sins" to be washed away (formally declared forgiven) so you could enter into communion with Christ's visible Church.

You cannot legitimately consider yourself a member of the visible Body of Christ until you have been visibly baptized in water - had your sins declared forgiven.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.



We've been over these points already. The thief heard Christ's Promise personally. We hear Christ's Promise personally in Baptism.

Well that's what you say--but that's not how I understand it. Where does the Bible reveal that we hear Christ personally only in Baptism? We must hear and believe before we are baptised.

Acts 10:39-48

"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen--by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Was Abraham baptised before he could hear God? Was he even circumcised before he could hear God? No.

You can hear Jesus personally by hearing His Word--and believing. Jesus revealed Himself to me through His Word. I believed and received Him first. That was the saving baptism--when I received the Holy Spirit, when we all-who put our trust in Jesus-receive the Holy Spirit. That is the baptism that Jesus brings--

Again, I do not doubt your experience as valid. But, it's not right that you had to wait a whole year before you allowed your "forgiven sins" to be washed away (formally declared forgiven) so you could enter into communion with Christ's visible Church.

Will you please cite some Scripture to support your contention? Where does it ever say that forgiven sin must be formally washed away to be part of the Church of Jesus Christ?--which is not exactly visible in the first place?

Are you talking about local earth bound church institutions that men set up?

Because Christ's church is spiritual for now---

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


Faith,

Please notice that it is "through His name" that we receive forgiveness. Peter told the Jews in Acts chapter 2 the very same thing however he told them to REPENT and be BAPTIZED in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST (or by His authority) for the remission of sins. One CANNOT be saved UNTIL they comply with Jesus requirements for salvation and baptism is INCLUDED in the only proper response to the gospel of Christ. If baptism was NOT included, then Peter would NOT have COMMANDED Cornelius and his household to be baptized. Their reception of the Holy Spirit had NOTHING to do with their salvation. It was PROOF to the Jews that the Gentiles could be saved the same way the Jews were saved.

Abraham was not subject to being baptized so your point is irrelevant.

I am still waiting for you to provide the passages that say the church is ONLY spiritual.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 24, 2004.


Kevin.,

You show me where it says that we can't call on the name of Jesus or receive forgiveness in his name without being first baptised in physical water??

It would seem to me that first one must hear the message and believe it. Then he can recognize his sinful state--confess, repent and ask Jesus into His life as Savior and ruler over it.

This is the wonderful moment of being born-again--it is a rebirth. The water baptism is a symbolic gesture recognizing this. It is us recognizing Jesus--not Jesus recognizing us., as Max would contend.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.


Kevin is wrong by placing too much emphassis on Baptism, turning it into a work that man does in order to qualify for God's favor, regardless of a man's faith in Jesus.

Faith is wrong because he places too little emphasis on Baptism, turning it into an empty symbol cut off from the Promise of God.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.


Faith is a she--

Max--you act like I completely disregard baptism in water--yet I have told you that I wanted to be baptised and was baptised. Twice to be exact. Once as a baby and once as an adult.

My point is not that we shouldn't value it--just like I wouldn't suggest we not value communion, another symbolic act. I am simply pointing out that the saving baptism occurs before we ever emmerse ourselves into literal water...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.


>Faith is a she-- <

I had a feeling that was the case after you spoke of your ring. ;) Sorry.

>Max--you act like I completely disregard baptism in water--yet I have told you that I wanted to be baptised and was baptised. Twice to be exact. Once as a baby and once as an adult. <

I don't think you disregard it completely, just demote it's significance and meaning.

>My point is not that we shouldn't value it--just like I wouldn't suggest we not value communion, another symbolic act. I am simply pointing out that the saving baptism occurs before we ever emmerse ourselves into literal water... <

I know you value it, but I think you value it more as a work you DO for God instead of seeing it as a Symbol God does for you.

Don't forget both sides of the equation in Baptism. Your receiving and God's giving.... not the other way around.

Yes, there is an inner work that saves us as the heart grasps the Promise of Christ in the Gospel.

My point is that the Promise of Christ also comes to us and outwardly seals our personal salvation through Baptism.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.


I know you value it, but I think you value it more as a work you DO for God instead of seeing it as a Symbol God does for you.

I neither see it as a work--nor do I see it as something God does. I see the true baptism as something God does. The water ritual that we do--we do because Jesus asked us to--in the same way we do communion--it is in remembrance it is symbolic and it keeps us focused on Hos truth at Calvary.

My point is that the Promise of Christ also comes to us and outwardly seals our personal salvation through Baptism.

Well could you provide the Scripture then?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.


>I neither see it as a work--nor do I see it as something God does. I see the true baptism as something God does. The water ritual that we do<

You first say it's not a work, but then you say it's something we do. Everything we physically do is a work.

>--we do because Jesus asked us to<

Jesus commanded it, or at least had His disciples command and perform it in His Name.

>--in the same way we do communion--it is in remembrance it is symbolic and it keeps us focused on Hos truth at Calvary. <

Participating in the Symbol by faith unites us to that for which is stands.

>My point is that the Promise of Christ also comes to us and outwardly seals our personal salvation through Baptism. <

>>Well could you provide the Scripture then? <<

Water Baptism is an outward physical ritual. No scripture needed to prove that.

Water Baptism contains the Promise of the forgiveness of sins. No need for me to re-post scriptures you've read a hundred times before that state this fact clearly.

Baptism is an outward Symbol that includes a Promise.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.


You shouldn't waste time like this.

You are just shooting from the lip.

I know that what you claim cannot be supported in the Scriptures--and since you can't provide any Scripture at all--in any of all your posts, while I have offered you some in contradiction to what you claim----I rest my case.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.


Max,

You wrote, "Kevin is wrong by placing too much emphassis on Baptism, turning it into a work that man does in order to qualify for God's favor, regardless of a man's faith in Jesus."

That is NOT true Max. Baptism is NOT a work that one does to qualify anyone for God's favor. Unless one has faith, they will NOT be baptized. Without baptism one is NOT saved. Faith will MOTIVATE someone to OBEY all that God commands and baptism is INCLUDED in the response of faith.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 24, 2004.


Faith,

You wrote, "You show me where it says that we can't call on the name of Jesus or receive forgiveness in his name without being first baptised in physical water??"

Look at what Ananias told Paul when he told him what to do (remember Jesus told Paul to go into the city and he would be TOLD what he MUST DO) in Acts 22:16.

" And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD."

It is in BAPTISM that one CALLS on the name of the Lord.

Now where is your scripture that says that one is saved BEFORE they are baptized along with your verse(s) that show that baptism is ONLY symbolic???

God says that baptism SAVES in 1 Peter 3:21.

You believe that baptism does NOT save.

Do you not realize that you are CONTRADICTING what God has stated in His word???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 24, 2004.


>That is NOT true Max. Baptism is NOT a work that one does to qualify anyone for God's favor.<

You contradict yourself.

If, before Baptism, a person could end up in hell (even though they truly trust in the Promise of Christ) then you are making Baptism THE DIVIDING LINE between when God favors you and when God does not favor you.

Either God favors you and you end up in heaven or God does not favor you and you end up in hell.

If you claim that Baptism is THE DIVIDING LINE between these two fates, then you cannot escape your own logical conclusion: you are saying that God's favor ONLY comes to a person through Baptism.

This is contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture, especially Paul.

>Unless one has faith, they will NOT be baptized. <

Some are Baptized without faith, but come to realize the value of their Baptism later. However, for the sake of argument, at first glance, you are correct.

>Without baptism one is NOT saved. <

In the end, if a person has refused Baptism, his problem is ultimately a faith problem, not a water washing problem.

>Faith will MOTIVATE someone to OBEY all that God commands and baptism is INCLUDED in the response of faith. <

Yes, a person who has faith will indeed be Baptized. And, if taught correctly, will be Baptized immediately.

Kevin, the problem you are having is that you, like Ms. Faith, emphasize what man does rather than what God does.

>"Faith will MOTIVATE someone to OBEY all that God commands"<

Do you obey ALL that God commands, Kevin?

If you say NO, is it correct to say that you do not have faith? If you say YES, do you realize you're a liar?

Obeying God's commands is expected, but that is not where His favor begins in our life. His favor is found when we, in our hearts, trust in His Promise.

"Abraham believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness."

God accounted Abraham as righteous even before Abraham obeyed.

And you cannot say "this was before the Gospel so it does not apply to us" because Paul uses this very point in his Epistle to prove the following VITAL point:

Based on your faith, even before any outward indication, God accounts you as righteous.

Kevin, as long as God accounts you as righteous in His Mind, you cannot be condemned. Period. You cannot argue with this point.

True faith will indeed carry a person through the waters of Baptism and into a life of sanctification.

Obviously, a person who refuses Baptism lacks faith. They are not condemned because they refused Baptism, though. They are condemned because they lack faith.

Faith is the DIVIDING LINE for God's acceptance, not Baptism.

Baptism is the DIVIDING LINE for the Church's acceptance. Until you've been FORMALLY DECLARED by God to be forgiven and saved, the Church cannot, in good faith, share with you the Family benefits (Lord's Supper, encouragement in faith, etc.) that the children of God are priveleged to enjoy.

I think we can agree that if a person refuses to be a participant in the Sacrament, they will not be saved (because they lack faith.)

I think we might disagree on where the DIVIDING LINE of salvation begins.

Faith is the beginning of salvation... heavenly glory is the end.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 25, 2004.


Kevin--

I am not convinced that in Acts 22:16 is refering to the water ritual of baptism. Notice what verse 14 and 15 say:

"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.

It seems to me that they are baptised by calling on the name of the Lord...that is repentance, confession and receiving Christ--a spiritual baptism of a convicted heart....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 25, 2004.


I wrote, "That is NOT true Max. Baptism is NOT a work that one does to qualify anyone for God's favor."

To which Max replied, "You contradict yourself. If, before Baptism, a person could end up in hell (even though they truly trust in the Promise of Christ) then you are making Baptism THE DIVIDING LINE between when God favors you and when God does not favor you."

There is no contradiction here Max, only the one you have made in your mind. Yes, before baptism one is NOT saved. If baptism washes away sins (and it does) then where are ones sins prior to their baptism??? Yes, baptism IS the dividing line between the LOST and the SAVED for this is where God has placed the cleansing blood of our Savior Jesus Christ. We are saved by the BLOOD of Jesus and He shed His blood in His DEATH. We contact His blood when we are BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH for this is what Romans 6:3 teaches.

Max wrote, "Either God favors you and you end up in heaven or God does not favor you and you end up in hell."

God favors those who OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Jesus NEVER said that one is justified by faith WITHOUT obedience to His commands. Max wrote, "If you claim that Baptism is THE DIVIDING LINE between these two fates, then you cannot escape your own logical conclusion: you are saying that God's favor ONLY comes to a person through Baptism. This is contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture, especially Paul."

Actually His favor ONLY comes to those who first HEAR the gospel, then they must BELIEVE the gospel, then they must REPENT of their sins, then one must CONFESS Jesus as the Son of God, then they must be BAPTIZED in water FOR the remission of their sins. One is NOT saved UNTIL they comply with ALL of the conditions God has required of one to be saved. The gospel is the power of God to salvation (Romans 1:16) and ONLY those who OBEY the gospel will be saved. The gospel includes Jesus DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). One OBEYS the gospel when they BELIEVE the gospel, DIE to their sins (this is called REPENTANCE), once they have DIED, they are suitable candidates to be BURIED in water (BAPTISM) where the cleansing blood of Jesus is located, then they are RAISED to walk a new life and come up out of the water a new creature. (Romans 6:4-6).

Jesus DIED, was BURIED and was RESURRECTED.

We DIE, are BURIED and are RESURRECTED.

This is how one OBEYS the gospel of Christ.

Max wrote, "Kevin, the problem you are having is that you, like Ms. Faith, emphasize what man does rather than what God does."

It may appear that I emphasize baptism more than most, and this is because most people erroneously believe that baptism does not save and the word of God CLEARLY states that baptism DOES save. Baptism is CLEARLY the dividing line between the LOST and the SAVED for one is still in their sins if they have not had them washed away in baptism.

I wrote, "Faith will MOTIVATE someone to OBEY all that God commands"

To which Max replied, "Do you obey ALL that God commands, Kevin? If you say NO, is it correct to say that you do not have faith? If you say YES, do you realize you're a liar?"

Let me say that I do my best to obey ALL that God commands. I am not perfect however once one becomes a Christian, they do are NOT automatically able to obey ALL that God commands. A Christian is commanded to GROW (2 Peter 3:18) and we are to put to DEATH the deeds of the body. (Romans 8:13). Max wrote, "Obeying God's commands is expected, but that is not where His favor begins in our life. His favor is found when we, in our hearts, trust in His Promise."

God wrote, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (John 14:21).

Max CLEARLY contradicts the word of God.

Max wrote, "Abraham believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness." God accounted Abraham as righteous even before Abraham obeyed."

When was it said that Abraham believed Max???

If it was by faith WITHOUT works, then you ought to be able to provide CLEAR scripture(s) that show this to be true.

The TRUTH of the matter is Scripture was FULFILLED when Abraham OBEYED God. (See James 2:21-23).

Max wrote, "And you cannot say "this was before the Gospel so it does not apply to us" because Paul uses this very point in his Epistle to prove the following VITAL point: Based on your faith, even before any outward indication, God accounts you as righteous."

I had NO plans of making this point at all and am still waiting for you to PROVE that God accounts one as righteous based on the faith WITHOUT works. Go back and re-read Hebrews chapter 11.

Max wrote, "Kevin, as long as God accounts you as righteous in His Mind, you cannot be condemned. Period. You cannot argue with this point."

Will we be judged by our faith, or our works Max??? Max wrote, "True faith will indeed carry a person through the waters of Baptism and into a life of sanctification. Obviously, a person who refuses Baptism lacks faith. They are not condemned because they refused Baptism, though. They are condemned because they lack faith."

They are NOT condemned for a lack of faith, they are condemned because they did NOT do what God CLEARLY commanded in His word. What happens to those who have NEVER heard of Jesus??? Will God condemn them even though they did NOT have the opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved??? If you say that God will NOT condemn them, then please provide Scriptural evidence to back up your belief.

Max wrote, "Faith is the DIVIDING LINE for God's acceptance, not Baptism."

Scripture(s) please!!!

God says "he who believes AND is baptized WILL be saved." (Mark 16:16).

God does NOT say "he who believes IS SAVED and then can be baptized."

Max wrote, "Baptism is the DIVIDING LINE for the Church's acceptance. Until you've been FORMALLY DECLARED by God to be forgiven and saved, the Church cannot, in good faith, share with you the Family benefits (Lord's Supper, encouragement in faith, etc.) that the children of God are priveleged to enjoy."

Where does the word of God teach this Max???

Who instituted baptism, the church or God???

When one is baptized it is God who ADDS them to the church. (See Acts 2:47).

Baptism is NOT a formal declaration to the church, it is the final step in obedience to God wherein one has their sins washed away. Max wrote, "Faith is the beginning of salvation... heavenly glory is the end."

Actually, faith is the beginning point on the road to salvation. Faith without works NEVER saved anyone.

King Agrippa in Acts 2:27 had FAITH, but he was NOT saved because he did NOT obey the gospel hence he did NOT become a Christian. Here is a man who had FAITH and you say that one is saved by faith WITHOUT having to be baptized and yet he did NOT become a Christian.

Think about it!!!

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 25, 2004.


Faith,

Jesus CHOSE Paul to know His will that the gospel is the power of God to salvation (and this included baptism FOR the remission of sins-which is why Ananias told him to wash away his sins in baptism) and to be a witness (in order to be an Apostle one HAD to be a WITNESS of Jesus resurrection) to the Gentiles.

Verses 14 and 15 in Acts chapter 22 have nothing to do with repentance or confession or receiving Christ nor is this the spiritual baptism that you continue to believe.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 25, 2004.


>If baptism washes away sins (and it does) then where are ones sins prior to their baptism??? <

Here's an analogy...

If a person owes you money, but you have pity on him and cancel his debt, he will no longer owe you money.

When you actually give him a notice of debt cancellation, his debt is "washed" away and he can look at you without a doubt. He has your word in the form of a physical cancellation notice.

In the same way...

When you believe, God has pity and forgives you in His heart. Your sins are no longer counted against you.

When you present yourself for Baptism, God there "tells you personally" that your debt is canceled. Baptism contains God's personal Word of forgiveness, like a notice of debt cancellation. Your sins (which are cancelled in His Mind) are "washed away."

In this analogy, the person was forgiven BEFORE the notice was received and not BECAUSE the notice was received.

>Yes, baptism IS the dividing line between the LOST and the SAVED for this is where God has placed the cleansing blood of our Savior Jesus Christ. <

Wrong, the blood is applied by faith.

Romans 3:25: "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."

>We contact His blood when we are BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH for this is what Romans 6:3 teaches.<

Yes, in Baptism, our bodies participate in the Symbol that stands for the Reality of His work. Our soul, however, cannot contact His blood, except by faith.

>God favors those who OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS<

Do you keep God's commandments? (I didn't ask if you try.)

"This is the work of God, to believe in Him Whom He has sent." Jn 6:29

>Jesus NEVER said that one is justified by faith WITHOUT obedience to His commands.<

Jhn 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him shall not perich, but will have everlasting life."

There are plenty of other sayings of Jesus that show faith in him is what saves. For example, Luke 5:20 "Thy faith hath saved thee"

I do not deny that faith is manifested by outward acts, but God judges the heart first. If there is faith, that faith is credited as righteousness.

"This is how one OBEYS the gospel of Christ. "

Obeying the commands of Christ go well beyond just Baptism.

The first thing to obey, which gains us a righteous standing with God, is trusting in Christ.

>It may appear that I emphasize baptism more than most, and this is because most people erroneously believe that baptism does not save and the word of God CLEARLY states that baptism DOES save.<

I did not say you emphasize Baptism too much, I said you emphasize Baptism as man's work too much. Baptism is primarily God's work, since it is performed by His ministers in His Name.

>Let me say that I do my best to obey ALL that God commands. <

Will your best save you? Or will full obedience save you? Which is it? You've given me two different stories now.

>once one becomes a Christian, they do are NOT automatically able to obey ALL that God commands.<

Then, if they do not obey all that God commands, according to you, God does not favor them.

>God wrote, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (John 14:21). Max CLEARLY contradicts the word of God.<

You yourself admit you do not keep God's commands. Have you lost His favor? Are you unsaved then?

>When was it said that Abraham believed Max???<

When He heard the Promise of God, he believed it in his heart. Where else do you believe a promise?

>If it was by faith WITHOUT works, then you ought to be able to provide CLEAR scripture(s) that show this to be true. <

I took the time to provide you plenty in one of the other threads.

>The TRUTH of the matter is Scripture was FULFILLED when Abraham OBEYED God.<

Yes, Abraham's faith was manifested. But, it was the faith, not the manifestation, that God counted as righteousness.

>They are NOT condemned for a lack of faith<

Somebody very important disagrees with you Kevin: "he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16

>What happens to those who have NEVER heard of Jesus???<

Christ will judge them according to their response to the Light they had. Christ is the judge, not I. Some have not heard the gospel of Jesus, such as Abraham. But, they respond to the Light they have. If the Light of Christ came into their life, they would respond positively. In the end, Christ judges according to His good pleasure. Some have faith in God, as Abraham, but have not received the message of Jesus yet. Those with true faith in God will receive the good news of Jesus.

>Max wrote, "Faith is the DIVIDING LINE for God's acceptance, not Baptism." Scripture(s) please!!!<

Lots on the other thread for you.

>Who instituted baptism, the church or God??? <

The Body of Christ carries out the Sacrament, making disciples and baptizing in Jesus' Name.

>Baptism is NOT a formal declaration to the church, it is the final step in obedience to God wherein one has their sins washed away.<

I never said it was a formal declaration to the Church, it's a formal declaration by God about the new convert... that he is to be accepted into the physical church family, with all the rights and privileges thereof.

>King Agrippa in Acts 2:27 had FAITH, but he was NOT saved because he did NOT obey the gospel hence he did NOT become a Christian. <

You'd better check your reference there. ;) Also, Agrippa did not believe in Christ. He believed in the prophets, but not in Jesus.



-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 25, 2004.


"There are plenty of other sayings of Jesus that show faith in him is what saves. For example, Luke 5:20 "Thy faith hath saved thee" " - Max Darity

Why, you are correct Max, there ARE others that say faith, and only faith save

Genesis 15:6,
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

Heb 4:2,
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Heb 10:38,
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

1 Pet 1:17-23,
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Pet 1:3-5,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Pet 2:6,
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Isa 53:10-11,
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Jn 1:12-13,
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jn 3:15,
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16,
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18,
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 3:36,
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 5:24,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jn 6:27-29,
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jn 6:35,
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jn 6:40,
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44,
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:47,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life

Jn 7:38,
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jn 11:25-26,
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jn 12:36,
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Jn 12:46,
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Jn 20:29,
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jn 20:31,
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Psalms 106:31,
And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

James 2:23,
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

1 Jn 3:23,
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 5:1,
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 5:4,
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith

1 Jn 5:5,
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 Jn 5:10,
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 Jn 5:13,
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Eph 1:13-14,
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 2:8-9,
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Eph 2:4-6,
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Acts 3:12-26,
And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 5:29-32,
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:43,
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 13:38-39,
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:9,
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:11,
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they

Acts 16:30-31,
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 20:21,
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:18,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Gal 2:16,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21,
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:1-5,
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:6,
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:7-12,
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:14,
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22,
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:24,
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:26,
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29,
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Cor 1:21,
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

2 Thes 2:13,
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Tim 1:9,
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1 Tim 1:16,
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Phil 3:9,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom 1:16-17,
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom 3:22,
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:24,
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:26,
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:28-30,
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:3,
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:5,
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:11-12,
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 4:16,
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 4:25,
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1,
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9,
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 9:30,
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 9:33,
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:4,
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:9-10,
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 11:6,
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Luke 7:50,
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 17:19,
And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Luke 18:42,
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee

Luke 5:20,
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Mark 2:5,
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee

Mark 5:34,
And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Psalm 32:1-5,
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. 3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. 4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. 5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah..

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Remember, I still have not read through the OT, and throughly read through the some of the smaller books in the NT. There are MANY other verses that show faith is indeed enough.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 25, 2004.


I'll re edit that post with the sciptures included,

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 25, 2004.

Max,

You anology does NOT work because Jesus in Matthew 28:19 instructed the Apostles NOT to go and teach the world that all one has to do is to believe in Him (have faith ALONE) and they would be saved. He told them to make disciples by "baptizing them..."

I wrote, "Yes, baptism IS the dividing line between the LOST and the SAVED for this is where God has placed the cleansing blood of our Savior Jesus Christ."

To which you replied, "Wrong, the blood is applied by faith."

No Max, it is you who are mistaken. Yes, the blood is applied by faith, but NOT by faith ALONE.

I wrote, "We contact His blood when we are BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH for this is what Romans 6:3 teaches."

To which you replied, "Yes, in Baptism, our bodies participate in the Symbol that stands for the Reality of His work. Our soul, however, cannot contact His blood, except by faith."

Sorry, baptism CANNOT be a symbol if it ACTUALLY washes our sins away.

You wrote, "This is the work of God, to believe in Him Whom He has sent." Jn 6:29"

Yes, we are to believe in Jesus whom God sent, but this text does NOT mention that one is saved by faith ALONE now does it Max???

I wrote, "Jesus NEVER said that one is justified by faith WITHOUT obedience to His commands."

To which you replied, "John 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him shall not perich, but will have everlasting life." There are plenty of other sayings of Jesus that show faith in him is what saves. For example, Luke 5:20 "Thy faith hath saved thee"

Anyone can take verse(s) out of CONTEXT and make it say something it was not designed to say. Do these verse(s) really say that ALL someone has to do is to believe in Jesus and they will be saved???

Take for example John 5:24, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." If one PULLS this out of CONTEXT, it appears that all one has to do is believe in God, NOT Jesus and one will be saved. However when one takes into account ALL that God has required for one to be saved, we can EASILY see this is NOT true.

You wrote, "I do not deny that faith is manifested by outward acts, but God judges the heart first. If there is faith, that faith is credited as righteousness."

Where is your Scriptural proof that "God judges the heart first". Faith WITHOUT any outward ACTS of OBEDIENCE is no faith at all.

You wrote, "I did not say you emphasize Baptism too much, I said you emphasize Baptism as man's work too much. Baptism is primarily God's work, since it is performed by His ministers in His Name."

Please explain how I am guilty of emphasizing baptism as "man's work"??? I have NEVER said that baptism is "man's work" now have I Max???

I wrote, "Let me say that I do my best to obey ALL that God commands."

To which you replied, "Will your best save you? Or will full obedience save you? Which is it? You've given me two different stories now."

This is the same faulty tactic that David tried on me in another thread. Please explain HOW I am giving "two different stories"???

I wrote, "once one becomes a Christian, they do are NOT automatically able to obey ALL that God commands."

To which you replied, "Then, if they do not obey all that God commands, according to you, God does not favor them."

You make absolutely NO sense in this reply. God knows if we are trying to do His will and be work out our salvation with fear and trembling. What does Matthew 7:14 say???

You wrote, "You yourself admit you do not keep God's commands. Have you lost His favor? Are you unsaved then?"

No Max, I did NOT admit that I do NOT keep God's commands. There is a difference between doing your best and NOT keeping God's commands.

I wrote, "When was it said that Abraham believed Max???

To which you replied, "When He heard the Promise of God, he believed it in his heart. Where else do you believe a promise?"

Scripture that proves this to be true??? Abraham was NOT justified UNTIL he did what God commanded of him. Why is this so difficult for you to understand???

I wrote, "If it was by faith WITHOUT works, then you ought to be able to provide CLEAR scripture(s) that show this to be true."

To which you replied, "I took the time to provide you plenty in one of the other threads."

And I took the time to prove to you that you don't know what you are talking about.

I wrote, "The TRUTH of the matter is Scripture was FULFILLED when Abraham OBEYED God."

To which you replied, "Yes, Abraham's faith was manifested. But, it was the faith, not the manifestation, that God counted as righteousness."

Actually God did NOT say Scripture was fulfilled UNTIL Abraham OBEYED God by doing what He said.

You wrote, "Somebody very important disagrees with you Kevin: "he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16"

You like those in denominations take the verses that say that one is saved by faith and ADD the word ALONE to them. Can you not see that you are guilty of CHANGING the word of God??? Mark 16:16 CLEARLY states that belief PLUS baptism = salvation. IF one does not believe, they will not be baptized, so there was NO need to add to the text that if one is not baptized they will not be saved. No faith = no baptism.

I wrote, "King Agrippa in Acts 26:27 had FAITH, but he was NOT saved because he did NOT obey the gospel hence he did NOT become a Christian."

To which you replied, "You'd better check your reference there. ;) Also, Agrippa did not believe in Christ. He believed in the prophets, but not in Jesus."

It was the prophets in the Old Testament who foretold of the Messiah and Paul was merely confirming this fact by stating that Christ WAS the Messiah. Since King Agrippa believed the prophets, he believed in Christ however he did NOT believe enough to obey all that God commanded one must do in order to become a Christian.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 25, 2004.


Most of your responses have been addressed on one of the other threads...

>I wrote, "once one becomes a Christian, they do are NOT automatically able to obey ALL that God commands."

To which you replied, "Then, if they do not obey all that God commands, according to you, God does not favor them."

You make absolutely NO sense in this reply. God knows if we are trying to do His will and be work out our salvation with fear and trembling. What does Matthew 7:14 say???<

Then you are shifting from OBEYING God's commands as being justification to TRYING TO OBEY God's commands is what justifies.

If you fail to OBEY God, you fail to be approved. You go to hell.

Have you failed God? Or are you instituting a new doctrine called the "TRYING CLAUSE"?

>No Max, I did NOT admit that I do NOT keep God's commands. There is a difference between doing your best and NOT keeping God's commands. <

You don't keep God's commands. You said before that keepingall God's cammands is what gains one his favor.

Therefore, because you do not keep his commands, you do not have his favor.

Don't quote some unwritten "TRYING CLAUSE". It doesn't wash. ;)

>It was the prophets in the Old Testament who foretold of the Messiah and Paul was merely confirming this fact by stating that Christ WAS the Messiah. Since King Agrippa believed the prophets, he believed in Christ however he did NOT believe enough to obey all that God commanded one must do in order to become a Christian.<

Agrippa did not believe in Jesus. There's no way you can say he had faith in Jesus..

It's faith that God accounts us righteous, faith in Jesus. It's a specific faith. Agrippa did not have this faith, as you claimed.

Therefore, you cannot use Agrippa as an example of someone who has faith in Jesus, but doesn't have works. He didn't believe in Jesus.

Those who believe in Jesus are justified, even before works manifest.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 26, 2004.


Max,

I am NOT shifting from "OBEYING God's commands" to "TRYING to OBEY God's commands" as being what justifies. You are ADDING to what I said. Will someone EVER have PERFECT obedience to God??? Not in this lifetime... The ONLY person who lived a PERFECT life was Jesus. ALL we can hope for is to do our BEST to obey the commands of God. It is NOT hard to OBEY God's commandments. TRYING to OBEY is NOT saying that one is NOT obeying now is it Max???

I wrote, "It was the prophets in the Old Testament who foretold of the Messiah and Paul was merely confirming this fact by stating that Christ WAS the Messiah. Since King Agrippa believed the prophets, he believed in Christ however he did NOT believe enough to obey all that God commanded one must do in order to become a Christian."

To which you replied, "Agrippa did not believe in Jesus. There's no way you can say he had faith in Jesus."

Paul DISAGREES with you for he PLAINLY stated, in Acts 26:22-23 "22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those WHICH THE PROPHETS AND MOSES SAID WOULD COME-- 23 THAT THE CHRIST WOULD SUFFER, THAT HE WOULD BE THE FIRST TO RISE FROM THE DEAD, and WOULD PROCLAIM LIGHT TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND TO THE GENTILES"

Continuing in Acts 26:26-27, "26 For the king, before whom I also speak freely, KNOWS THESE THINGS; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, DO YOU BELIEVE THE PROPHETS? I KNOW that YOU DO BELIEVE."

It is OBVIOUS that King Agrippa did BELIEVE THE PROPHETS when they spoke about CHRIST. Did the King say, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."??? (Acts 26:28).

Why would he have made that statement if he did NOT believe???

He BELIEVED in Christ, otherwise Paul would NOT have said that he did. He did NOT believe in Christ enough to DO what Paul told him to do which was to obey the gospel.

You wrote, "Therefore, you cannot use Agrippa as an example of someone who has faith in Jesus, but doesn't have works. He didn't believe in Jesus."

You have said that faith ALONE saves. If faith ALONE saves, then you CANNOT say that one MUST have WORKS in order to believe in Jesus.

You wrote, "Those who believe in Jesus are justified, even before works manifest."

You have NOT provided one scripture verse to PROVE this to be true. If faith ALONE without WORKS justifies, where are the scriptures that say this as a fact??? If you look at everyone who has had faith in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, then had to DO something. Faith is an ACTION word. Jesus had this to say about those who have faith ALONE without WORKS. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 27, 2004.


Wrong again Kevin--the action or works done are because someone believes and has faith. We do not do these things in order to become righteous--but because we are righteous. We are saved. Salvation means to be delivered from the power and penalty of sin. If you are not delivered first--it is impossible to even try and be perfect., something none of us can ever be., but should strive to be.

Luckily--this effort is not what saves us...We must be saved first by faith.

That is the whole point of the Old Testament--to reveal to us our inability to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. That is the requirement to enter heaven.., yet even you acknowledge that we can't quite measure up. The answer is that we are not expected to. We become perfect in Christ when we put on His righteousness through *faith* in Him....once we are saved by that faith--we can then attempt to become Christ-like.., but not a minute sooner.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 27, 2004.


Sorry Faith, you are the one who is mistaken.

One does NOT have their sins washed away UNTIL they are baptized in water FOR the remission of their sins, so your claim that "We do not do these things in order to become righteous--but because we are righteous" is FALSE, you have been deceived.

God does NOT account our faith as righteousness UNTIl we do what He says one must DO in order to be saved.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 27, 2004.


Man is saved by faith, but NOT until this faith OBEYS.

The walls of Jericho fell by faith (Joshua chapter 6), NOT at the moment the people believed, but AFTER they had complied with the conditions God had given them.

By faith, Noah and his house were saved (Hebrews 11:7) but when were they saved??? Faith ALONE advocates would say all you have to do is TRUST in God and you will be saved, there is no need to build an ark. If Noah would have believed these faith ALONE advocates he would have been LOST. God TOLD Noah what to do to be saved and "by faith Noah...prepared an ark". Noah was saved by faith ONLY when his faith OBEYED.

In Numbers chapter 21 we read about the Israelites being bitten by fiery serpents and many of them died. The way of escape was dependent on faith for God told Moses to make a fiery serpent and set it upon a standard and all who looked on it would live. (Num. 21:8). If these faith ALONE advocates were there, they would have said, "just believe and you will be saved". Would they have been saved??? Not at all... they would have died. ONLY those who COMPLIED with God's condition were those who lived. Looking at the serpent was salvation by faith.

There are other examples, the point is that one is saved by faith when this faith COMPLIES with the CONDITIONS God has stated in His word what one MUST DO in order to be saved.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 27, 2004.


Jesus never says we must be baptised to be saved. Sorry Kevin.

The people you used as your examples, by-the-way--were saved because they believed God. It was their faith that allowed them to walk around the city without a single form of violence---and it was faith that caused Noah to build the Ark--he believed God when God said He needed to do this..... The obedience only came because of faith-----

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 27, 2004.


>ALL we can hope for is to do our BEST to obey the commands of God. TRYING to OBEY is NOT saying that one is NOT obeying now is it Max??? <

Even if you're "trying" you're still failing to obey God's commands - thus, according to your doctrine, you do not have God's favor.

This is what you've set up: Obey God = Favor Fail to Obey God = No Favor

Do you fail to obey God or not? Trying doesn't count because you're still choosing to disobey.

>It is OBVIOUS that King Agrippa did BELIEVE THE PROPHETS when they spoke about CHRIST. Did the King say, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."??? (Acts 26:28).

Why would he have made that statement if he did NOT believe???

>He BELIEVED in Christ, otherwise Paul would NOT have said that he did. He did NOT believe in Christ enough to DO what Paul told him to do which was to obey the gospel. <

No Kevin. Agrippa may have believed that the Christ would come, even as the Jews believe today, but he rejected Jesus as the Christ. You cannot say Agrippa trusted in Jesus just because he believes in the Jewish idea of a coming Messiah. The Jews believed in a coming Messiah, but they refused to believe that Jesus was the One. Most Jews still reject Him as the Christ, but they believe in the coming of the Messiah still.

Again, you cannot use Agrippa as an example of a man who trusted in Jesus but did not have works. Agrippa was not persuaded that Jesus was the Messiah. He even said this plainly.

Unfortuntely, in his heart, Agrippa didn't come to trust in Jesus as Savior. At least not in this account. Maybe he did later.

>You have said that faith ALONE saves. If faith ALONE saves, then you CANNOT say that one MUST have WORKS in order to believe in Jesus. <

I never said you must have works in order to believe in Jesus. I've said over and over that works will follow faith, like a railcar follows the train engine. The train engine is not alone, but it alone is credited for moving the train.

Faith is not alone, but faith alone (only) is credited as righteousness... in other words, our works receive no credit towards justification. Only faith gets the credit.

I'm not sure how to more clearly express this in human language...

>If faith ALONE without WORKS justifies, where are the scriptures that say this as a fact???<

Faith is not alone, but faith alone is considered when weighing whether one is justified or not.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Can it be any more clear? When you stop working for God's favor and just believe that, for Christ's sake alone you are forgiven, you are considered by God to be righteous. You have his favor apart from works. A person who receives such an amazing gift, at the expense of Christ, will return the love to God. Returning the love doesn't gain us favor. We give love back because we'e already gained favor, free favor because of the Grace of Jesus.

If you have to work for it, it's not free. If it's not free, it's not a gift. If it's not a gift, it's not the true gospel. If it's not the true gospel, you're in danger of hellfire.

>If you look at everyone who has had faith in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, then had to DO something.<

God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, long before he ever got circumcised. In fact, he was just sitting there listening to God give him promises, he believed those promises, and "his faith was accounted to him as righteousness." Yes, Abraham took the sign of the covenant... two chapters later... but this was because he already had God's favor, not because he wanted to gain God's favor.

>Faith is an ACTION word.<

No, faith is not an action in itself. Faith is more of an attitude than an action. You actions follow your attitude. If you have an attitude of trust towards God, He credits this as righteousness.

>Jesus had this to say about those who have faith ALONE without WORKS. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).<

These whom Christ speaks to in this verse are those who do not have a proper attitude toward God, they do not have REAL faith, the sort of faith that justifies, the sort of faith that God counts as righteousness, the sort of faith that leads one to do works of love towards God out of gratefulness for His favor, not to gain His favor.

Do you do good things for your wife in order to gain her favor or because you're grateful that you already have her favor?

There's a big difference between the two sorts of relationships. One leads to self-righteousness the other leads to selfless works.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 27, 2004.


>Man is saved by faith, but NOT until this faith OBEYS. <

According to this...

You can obey one command and consider yourself saved and never have to do another thing.

Or...

You can live your life trying to obey all God's Commands, but failing, and never attain salvation because you have not fulfilled the conditions.

Here are the conditions you just set down: "Man is saved by faith, but NOT until this faith OBEYS."

Kevin, you have to be honest with yourself. You do not obey God's Commands. According to your own rule, you will lose salvation. Trying isn't obeying. Trying and failing is still disobeying.

>The walls of Jericho fell by faith (Joshua chapter 6), NOT at the moment the people believed, but AFTER they had complied with the conditions God had given them. <

Defeating Jericho has nothing to do with salvation of the soul.

>By faith, Noah and his house were saved (Hebrews 11:7) but when were they saved??? <

Yes, they believed and obeyed and were saved from the flood. This has nothing to do with being justified.

God counted them righteous as they believed. Your doctrine, if taken into the allegory, claims that God only favored Noah and his family after they exited the ark. This is contrary to scripture, since God favored Noah before He ever called Noah.

>Faith ALONE advocates would say all you have to do is TRUST in God and you will be saved, there is no need to build an ark.<

Right, we don't build an ark. Christ is the ark. We simply get on and ride the waves to salvation. Of course, we need to clean the horse stalls if we want a more peaceful ride.... i.e. repent of dead works.

>If Noah would have believed these faith ALONE advocates he would have been LOST. <

No, Noah was a sort of John the Baptist, doing the grunt work of preparing the way of the Lord (building the Ark) and pointing to Him (Jesus) as the way of salvation.

>God TOLD Noah what to do to be saved and "by faith Noah...prepared an ark". Noah was saved by faith ONLY when his faith OBEYED. <

Noah was a righteous man who obeyed God even before he ever built an ark. God's favor rested on Noah long before he built any ark.

>In Numbers chapter 21 we read about the Israelites being bitten by fiery serpents and many of them died. The way of escape was dependent on faith for God told Moses to make a fiery serpent and set it upon a standard and all who looked on it would live. (Num. 21:8). If these faith ALONE advocates were there, they would have said, "just believe and you will be saved". Would they have been saved??? Not at all... they would have died. ONLY those who COMPLIED with God's condition were those who lived. Looking at the serpent was salvation by faith. <

Again, this has nothing to do with soul salvation, but for the sake of your analogy, notice how they turned (repented) and had faith.

Repentance is simply turning from non-faith to faith. They didn't have to promise not to do bad things any more etc. That's what some people think repentance is.

Repentance in the gospel sense means: "STOP DISBELIEVING! STOP LOOKING ELSEWHERE FOR SALVATION! STOP LOOKING AT YOUR OWN WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS! STOP LOOKING AT YOURSELF! STOP TRUSTING IN YOUR IDEAS, FEELINGS, AND ANYTHING ELSE YOU DO! STOP TRYING TO BUY GOD'S GRACE! STOP TRUSTING IN DEAD WORKS THAT PROFIT NOTHING! START TRUSTING IN CHRIST THE ONLY SAVIOR!"

Trust is an attitude which manifests itself through actions. It's the attitude of trust/faith that God counts as righteousness, not the works that naturally follow.

The Promise can only reach the heart by faith, not works.

>There are other examples, the point is that one is saved by faith when this faith COMPLIES with the CONDITIONS God has stated in His word what one MUST DO in order to be saved. <

Have you complied with all the CONDITIONS Kevin?

I have a feeling you still disobey God, thus proving you do not have faith, that is, according to the rules you've set down.

You either OBEY God or DISOBEY God.

According to you:

When you DISOBEY God you are not saved. When you OBEY God you are saved.

Your life must be one heck of an up and down ride... saved one moment and damned the next...

Oh wait, you "try" to obey. I forgot that unwritten rule you made up to excuse your own disobedience and lack of righteousness...

You excuse yourself because you "try" to obey, though you still fail to obey.

God excuses me because I believe His Son already paid the penalty for my sins.

Two distinct paths. I'll go with faith and show my gratefulness to God through loving others. Though my gratefulness is not perfect, thankfully I'm not judged righteous based on how grateful I am.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 27, 2004.


Faith wrote, "Jesus never says we must be baptised to be saved. Sorry Kevin."

Faith do you not realize that you are calling Jesus a LIAR???

Jesus PLAINLY stated in Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved;"

Nothing could be clearer than this verse that PROVES that one MUST be baptized in order to be saved.

Faith wrote, "The people you used as your examples, by-the-way--were saved because they believed God. It was their faith that allowed them to walk around the city without a single form of violence---and it was faith that caused Noah to build the Ark--he believed God when God said He needed to do this..... The obedience only came because of faith-----"

They were justified by faith ONLY when they did what God told them to do. Their faith did NOTHING until it acted.

Max wrote, "No Kevin. Agrippa may have believed that the Christ would come, even as the Jews believe today, but he rejected Jesus as the Christ."

No, Paul said that Agrippa DID BELIEVE. Just because one believes in Christ does NOT mean that they are saved. Faith alone salvation is DEAD for this is exactly the kind of faith King Agrippa had, faith with NO works. He had faith, and this did NOT save him.

Max wrote, "Again, you cannot use Agrippa as an example of a man who trusted in Jesus but did not have works. Agrippa was not persuaded that Jesus was the Messiah. He even said this plainly."

No Agrippa didn't say this plainly, he stated "you ALMOST persuade me to become a Christian." Paul said he believed, why do you have a problem understanding what is written???

You wrote, "I've said over and over that works will follow faith, like a railcar follows the train engine. The train engine is not alone, but it alone is credited for moving the train. Faith is not alone, but faith alone (only) is credited as righteousness... in other words, our works receive no credit towards justification. Only faith gets the credit."

Initially you said that faith ALONE is what saves. Now you say that works will follow faith. You cannot have it both ways. You CANNOT say that faith ALONE saves and then turn around and say that true faith will have works. If we are justified by works (and we are), your statement that faith without works saves is a LIE.

You wrote, "Faith is not alone, but faith alone is considered when weighing whether one is justified or not. Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Can it be any more clear? When you stop working for God's favor and just believe that, for Christ's sake alone you are forgiven, you are considered by God to be righteous. You have his favor apart from works. A person who receives such an amazing gift, at the expense of Christ, will return the love to God. Returning the love doesn't gain us favor. We give love back because we'e already gained favor, free favor because of the Grace of Jesus. If you have to work for it, it's not free. If it's not free, it's not a gift. If it's not a gift, it's not the true gospel. If it's not the true gospel, you're in danger of hellfire."

Actually Romans 4:5 does NOT teach that works do NOT justify for this CONFLICTS with James 2:21 that states that Abraham WAS justified by works. Since this is the case, Romans 4:5 CANNOT mean that works have nothing to do with justification. Are there any contradictions in the Bible Max??? If one trusts God, this person will do ALL that God says one must do in order to be saved. Meeting the few conditions that God has laid down for someone to be saved is NOT working for salvation, we are merely doing what God has commanded.

Jesus has this to say to those who claim faith ALONE salvation, "He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4).

I wrote, "If you look at everyone who has had faith in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, then had to DO something. "

To which Max replied, "God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, long before he ever got circumcised. In fact, he was just sitting there listening to God give him promises, he believed those promises, and "his faith was accounted to him as righteousness." Yes, Abraham took the sign of the covenant... two chapters later... but this was because he already had God's favor, not because he wanted to gain God's favor."

Abraham's circumcision has NOTHING to do with his faith being credited to him as righteousness. Scripture PLEASE that shows that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he OBEYED God???

I wrote, "Faith is an ACTION word."

To which Max replied, "No, faith is not an action in itself. Faith is more of an attitude than an action. You actions follow your attitude. If you have an attitude of trust towards God, He credits this as righteousness."

The great heroes of faith who are spoken of in Hebrews chapter 11 PROVE that Max does NOT know what he is talking about. By faith Abel offered, etc?

I wrote, "Jesus had this to say about those who have faith ALONE without WORKS. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)."

To which Max replied, "These whom Christ speaks to in this verse are those who do not have a proper attitude toward God, they do not have REAL faith, the sort of faith that justifies, the sort of faith that God counts as righteousness, the sort of faith that leads one to do works of love towards God out of gratefulness for His favor, not to gain His favor."

You said faith ALONE saves. This is faith WITHOUT works. You CANNOT turn around and say those who do not have works do not have REAL faith. God says that faith without works is DEAD, nothing could be clearer. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with God.

You wrote, "There's a big difference between the two sorts of relationships. One leads to self-righteousness the other leads to selfless works."

Sorry Max, you are indeed mistaken once again. Faith with WORKS does NOT lead to "self-righteousness" as you FALSELY teach. In fact after ALL that we do to OBEY the commandments of God, we CANNOT say that our own works have justified us for God says in Luke 17:10, "So likewise you, when you have done ALL THOSE THINGS WHICH YOU ARE COMMANDED, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' "

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 27, 2004.


This is getting a bit redundant...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

Max wrote, "You can obey one command and consider yourself saved and never have to do another thing. Or...You can live your life trying to obey all God's Commands, but failing, and never attain salvation because you have not fulfilled the conditions."

It isn't whether we consider ourselves saved Max it is when God considers one to be saved. The gospel is God's power to salvation, and when one obeys the gospel, they are saved. Once one is saved, they work out their salvation and put to death the deeds of the body. If one does NOT bear fruit after they have become a Christian, they will NOT be saved.

I wrote, "Man is saved by faith, but NOT until this faith OBEYS."

To which Max replied, "Kevin, you have to be honest with yourself. You do not obey God's Commands. According to your own rule, you will lose salvation. Trying isn't obeying. Trying and failing is still disobeying."

Max really doesn't know what he is talking about. It isn't hard to obey the gospel. God does NOT make salvation too difficult that one cannot do what He has commanded. God PLAINLY states that the narrow road that leads to salvation is DIFFICULT and there are FEW who find it. (Matt. 7:14). God says IF we WALK IN THE LIGHT, (that is by His word) the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin. (1 John 1:7). Occasionally the Christian will FALL (in other words they will sin) even though they are trying their best. Does this mean that their salvation will be LOST because they are trying their best and FALLING??? Not at all!!! Jesus said in 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

I wrote, "The walls of Jericho fell by faith (Joshua chapter 6), NOT at the moment the people believed, but AFTER they had complied with the conditions God had given them."

To which Max replied, "Defeating Jericho has nothing to do with salvation of the soul."

I never said that it had anything to do with salvation now did I Max??? I quoted this because God said the walls of Jericho fell by FAITH, but not the faith ALONE that you advocate.

I wrote, "By faith, Noah and his house were saved (Hebrews 11:7) but when were they saved???"

To which Max replied, "Yes, they believed and obeyed and were saved from the flood. This has nothing to do with being justified."

If they were saved, then it most certainly has something to do with being justified.

Max wrote, "God counted them righteous as they believed."

Actually, God counted them righteous because they DID what He told them to do.

Max wrote, "Your doctrine, if taken into the allegory, claims that God only favored Noah and his family after they exited the ark. This is contrary to scripture, since God favored Noah before He ever called Noah."

When was Noah saved Max??? Was it before he went into the ark??? Or was it after he left the ark??? If it was AFTER he left the ark (and it was), then you really don't know what you are talking about. Yes, God favored Noah, but this had NOTHING to do with him being saved.

I wrote, "Faith ALONE advocates would say all you have to do is TRUST in God and you will be saved, there is no need to build an ark."

To which Max replied, "Right, we don't build an ark. Christ is the ark. We simply get on and ride the waves to salvation. Of course, we need to clean the horse stalls if we want a more peaceful ride.... i.e. repent of dead works."

Actually, God says that Noah and his family were saved THROUGH water. (1 Peter 3:20). Today, one is saved THROUGH baptism. (1 Peter 3:21).

Must one repent of their sins in order to be saved???

I wrote, "God TOLD Noah what to do to be saved and "by faith Noah...prepared an ark". Noah was saved by faith ONLY when his faith OBEYED."

To which Max replied, "Noah was a righteous man who obeyed God even before he ever built an ark. God's favor rested on Noah long before he built any ark."

Actually, Noah was NOT saved until he built the ark and got INTO it.

I wrote, "In Numbers chapter 21 we read about the Israelites being bitten by fiery serpents and many of them died. The way of escape was dependent on faith for God told Moses to make a fiery serpent and set it upon a standard and all who looked on it would live. (Num. 21:8). If these faith ALONE advocates were there, they would have said, "just believe and you will be saved". Would they have been saved??? Not at all... they would have died. ONLY those who COMPLIED with God's condition were those who lived. Looking at the serpent was salvation by faith."

To which Max replied, "Again, this has nothing to do with soul salvation, but for the sake of your analogy, notice how they turned (repented) and had faith."

Again, I never said it had anything to do with salvation. I merely pointed this out because those who wanted to LIVE had to DO something besides have faith ALONE. They DID what God told them to do and LIVED.

Max wrote, "Repentance in the gospel sense means: "STOP DISBELIEVING! STOP LOOKING ELSEWHERE FOR SALVATION! STOP LOOKING AT YOUR OWN WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS! STOP LOOKING AT YOURSELF! STOP TRUSTING IN YOUR IDEAS, FEELINGS, AND ANYTHING ELSE YOU DO! STOP TRYING TO BUY GOD'S GRACE! STOP TRUSTING IN DEAD WORKS THAT PROFIT NOTHING! START TRUSTING IN CHRIST THE ONLY SAVIOR!"

Please explain what "works of righteousness" I am doing??? Are these my own works or are they the works of God??? What dead works profit nothing??? Trusting in Christ as one's Savior means that they will DO what He has COMMANDED. (See Hebrews 5:9).

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 27, 2004.


What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family, the flood or the ark?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

David,

What does 1 Peter 3:20 say???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 27, 2004.


>No, Paul said that Agrippa DID BELIEVE. Just because one believes in Christ does NOT mean that they are saved. Faith alone salvation is DEAD for this is exactly the kind of faith King Agrippa had, faith with NO works. He had faith, and this did NOT save him. <

No, Agrippa did not have faith in Jesus. You maybe were taught that, but there's no indication from the scripture that he trusted in Jesus. He may have believed in the fact of a Christ coming for the Jews, but he never trusted in the person Jesus Christ. The more you insist he did, the more you discredit yourself.

>No Agrippa didn't say this plainly, he stated "you ALMOST persuade me to become a Christian." Paul said he believed, why do you have a problem understanding what is written??? <

He believed the prophets just as the Pharisees believed in Moses etc, but the Pharisees didn't believe in Jesus. Agrippa didn't trust in the person of Jesus as his Savior. There's no way an honest reader could ever come up with this idea. In fact, he said he was NOT persuaded to believe in Jesus as the Christ.

>Initially you said that faith ALONE is what saves. Now you say that works will follow faith. You cannot have it both ways.<

I feel like my words go right over your head. FAITH ALONE doesn't mean faith is not accompanied by works and other gifts... FAITH ALONE means ONLY FAITH is what God considers as he decides to credit someone as righteous. The works simply prove that Faith, but not to God. God knows a person's attitude even before they do any works. Seriously, try and understand this before you respond. It seems to continue to slip through and then you respond back with something that doesn't even resemble what I'm saying.

>Actually Romans 4:5 does NOT teach that works do NOT justify for this CONFLICTS with James 2:21 that states that Abraham WAS justified by works.<

Abraham was justified before men by his works, but not before God. Before men, Abraham could "pull down his pants" and prove he had faith. However, as you know, Abraham believed God and God credited to him as righteousness LONG before he ever got circumcised etc. It was as soon as Abraham heard God's promise that he believed and then it says that God credited this as righteousness. Read Genesis.

>Jesus has this to say to those who claim faith ALONE salvation, "He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4).<

Jesus was saing this to people who claim to have faith, even religious people who do good works, but don't have love or the spirit of God in their heart... who strain a gnat over ritual laws and neglect the weightier commands about how to treat others.

>Scripture PLEASE that shows that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he OBEYED God??? <

Genesis 15.

>The great heroes of faith who are spoken of in Hebrews chapter 11 PROVE that Max does NOT know what he is talking about. By faith Abel offered<

Yes, BY FAITH etc. which means the attitude came first, then the action.

>You said faith ALONE saves. This is faith WITHOUT works.<

And so you continue to misunderstand... I guess it's what the Lord wills.

>You CANNOT turn around and say those who do not have works do not have REAL faith. <

Yes, I can. And if you God revealed it to you, you'd understand what this means in light of FAITH ALONE doctrine.

>God says that faith without works is DEAD, nothing could be clearer. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with God.<

No offense, but I thin you are arguing with yourself, because you do not understand my argument.

>In fact after ALL that we do to OBEY the commandments of God, we CANNOT say that our own works have justified us <

Then what, exactly, justifies us? If our works do not justify us?



-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 28, 2004.


>Max really doesn't know what he is talking about.<

Sometimes I don't know what I'm talking about... on this subject, though, I'm very sure of my beliefs.

>It isn't hard to obey the gospel.<

OK.

>God PLAINLY states that the narrow road that leads to salvation is DIFFICULT<

But it's not HARD like you just stated above. OK...

>I never said that it had anything to do with salvation now did I Max??? I quoted this because God said the walls of Jericho fell by FAITH, but not the faith ALONE that you advocate.<

All you prove is that faith motivated men to do things. Nobody would deny this. I would deny, however, that these men were considered righteous by God only after they blew on some horns and walked around Jericho etc.

>If they were saved, then it most certainly has something to do with being justified. <

They were saved from the flood, but there's no indication they were saved from hellfire and the final judgment where all flesh will appear. Are you mixing up the two different events?

>When was Noah saved Max??? <

Noah will be "saved" when Christ returns and raises the dead and gives to Noah an inheritance with the saints. What qualifies Noah for this inheritance? Trust in God.

>Was it before he went into the ark??? Or was it after he left the ark??? If it was AFTER he left the ark (and it was), then you really don't know what you are talking about.<

Noah was saved before, during and after he went into the ark. The salvation (from the flood) was complete when he left the ark. This has nothing to do with salvation from hellfire, however.

>Yes, God favored Noah, but this had NOTHING to do with him being saved.<

Well, Kevin, if God favors you, you certainly will be saved. That's the definition of Grace. Unmerited favor. "We are saved by grace." God favored Noah and chose him to be saved from the flood.

>Actually, God says that Noah and his family were saved THROUGH water.<

They were saved/delivered from the judgment on that generation, but this has nothing to do with salvation from God's wrath on the Last Day.

>Actually, Noah was NOT saved until he built the ark and got INTO it. <

Earlier you claimed he wasn't saved until after he got out of it...

My claim is that he was spiritually saved before, during, and after. If he had died of flu before the boat ride, he would not have gone to hell.

I think you're drawing too close of a line between Noah's physical salvation from the flood and our spiritual salvation from sin. Even Noah had to be saved from his sin. The ark didn't do that. Neither did his good works.

>Again, I never said it had anything to do with salvation. I merely pointed this out because those who wanted to LIVE had to DO something besides have faith ALONE. They DID what God told them to do and LIVED. <

You don't understand what the concept of ONLY FAITH means. I tried. It's up to God to give revelation.

>Trusting in Christ as one's Savior means that they will DO what He has COMMANDED. <

Trusting in Jesus Christ means your attitude towards him is one of faith or reliance. Doing what He commands is an obvious result once a person's attitude is correct.

However, there are some who do all the works that God commands, but they're still not inwardly converted to Christ. They have no genuine faith in Him, but they've done all the works God commanded. These people won't see the kingdom of God either. Doing the works without the proper attitude will not save you. A proper attitude (faith) will save you... and from that proper attitude, certain actions will naturally follow - that is, you will seek to obey God and manifest His glory.

Seriously, if you can't understand the Bible concept of "Only Faith Justifies," there's very little I can do. Maybe the Lord can help you understand this better if it is His will someday.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 28, 2004.


Max wrote, "No, Agrippa did not have faith in Jesus. You maybe were taught that, but there's no indication from the scripture that he trusted in Jesus. He may have believed in the fact of a Christ coming for the Jews, but he never trusted in the person Jesus Christ. The more you insist he did, the more you discredit yourself."

I didn't say that Agrippa had faith, Paul said it, and obviously you have a problem with what Paul wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Paul said that Agrippa believed, Max says he didn't. I choose to believe God.

Max wrote, "He believed the prophets just as the Pharisees believed in Moses etc, but the Pharisees didn't believe in Jesus. Agrippa didn't trust in the person of Jesus as his Savior. There's no way an honest reader could ever come up with this idea. In fact, he said he was NOT persuaded to believe in Jesus as the Christ."

Actually, some of the rulers DID believe in Jesus, they did NOT confess Jesus for they were afraid they would be put out of the synagogue. (John 12:42-43). Here are some rules who BELIEVED in Jesus, yet they were NOT saved. So much for faith ALONE salvation.

Max wrote, "I feel like my words go right over your head. FAITH ALONE doesn't mean faith is not accompanied by works and other gifts... FAITH ALONE means ONLY FAITH is what God considers as he decides to credit someone as righteous."

Actually, faith ALONE without works CANNOT save. You teach that man is justified by faith ALONE without works, and this is NOT what the word of God teaches. God does NOT credit someone as righteous UNTIL they have complied with His CONDITIONS and baptism is one of those conditions.

Max wrote, "The works simply prove that Faith, but not to God. God knows a person's attitude even before they do any works. Seriously, try and understand this before you respond. It seems to continue to slip through and then you respond back with something that doesn't even resemble what I'm saying."

Actually, the works are part of the steps of the faith that we are commanded to walk in. You say that works are the product of faith, yet you claim that faith WITHOUT any works is what saves. This most certainly is what you are saying.

Max wrote, "Abraham was justified before men by his works, but not before God. Before men, Abraham could "pull down his pants" and prove he had faith. However, as you know, Abraham believed God and God credited to him as righteousness LONG before he ever got circumcised etc. It was as soon as Abraham heard God's promise that he believed and then it says that God credited this as righteousness. Read Genesis."

The truth of the matter is that Abraham was justified before God because he did what God told him to do. Scripture please that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness BEFORE he did something. The verses you quoted do NOT prove this to be true. If Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness BEFORE he acted upon his faith, you should have no problem proving this through the word of God. To date you have done no such thing.

I wrote, "Jesus has this to say to those who claim faith ALONE salvation, "He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4)."

To which Max replied, "Jesus was saing this to people who claim to have faith, even religious people who do good works, but don't have love or the spirit of God in their heart... who strain a gnat over ritual laws and neglect the weightier commands about how to treat others."

The TRUTH of the matter is those who claim faith ALONE salvation without works are DECEIVED. Please explain what "ritual laws" one is straining a gnat over if one does what God commands in having faith in the gospel, repenting of their sins, confessing their faith in the gospel and being baptized for the remission of their sins???

I wrote, "Scripture PLEASE that shows that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he OBEYED God???"

To which Max replied, "Genesis 15."

Let's see if this is true. Genesis 15:5-6 states, "5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." WHEN was this Scripture fulfilled??? James 2:21-23 states, "21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was FULFILLED which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God."

So much for Max's proof that Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness BEFORE he OFFERED his son Isaac on the altar.

I wrote, "The great heroes of faith who are spoken of in Hebrews chapter 11 PROVE that Max does NOT know what he is talking about. By faith Abel offered"

To which Max replied, "Yes, BY FAITH etc. which means the attitude came first, then the action."

The TRUTH of the matter is "by faith" means that those men and women quoted in Hebrews chapter 11 had to DO something in order for God to say "by faith".

I wrote, "In fact after ALL that we do to OBEY the commandments of God, we CANNOT say that our own works have justified us"

To which Max replied, "Then what, exactly, justifies us? If our works do not justify us?"

Our OWN works do NOT justify us. If they did, we would have reason to boast. (See Luke 17:10).

Max wrote, "Well, Kevin, if God favors you, you certainly will be saved. That's the definition of Grace. Unmerited favor. "We are saved by grace." God favored Noah and chose him to be saved from the flood."

Yes we are saved by grace however, this does NOT mean that we don't have to DO anything to merit that grace. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith, NOT through faith ALONE.

Max wrote, "Seriously, if you can't understand the Bible concept of "Only Faith Justifies," there's very little I can do. Maybe the Lord can help you understand this better if it is His will someday."

Actually, faith is acquired by voluntarily hearing the truth, and acting responsibly on that conviction. The works in themselves do not merit salvation, since the blood of Christ accomplishes this, but in performing the conditional works commanded by the Lord there is the necessary PROVING of our faith to God.

Salvation is by faith, and everyone who believes shall be saved. Faith is NOT complete or real, or alive UNTIL it is expressed and actualized by a total surrender and a submissive obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of Christ our Lord. (Heb. 5:8-9).



-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 28, 2004.


>I didn't say that Agrippa had faith, Paul said it, and obviously you have a problem with what Paul wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Paul said that Agrippa believed, Max says he didn't. I choose to believe God. <

Paul said Agrippa believed the prophets. That doesn't mean Agrippa was persuaded that Jesus was the Christ.. leading to faith in Jesus.

Your credibility, not mine.

>You teach that man is justified by faith ALONE without works, and this is NOT what the word of God teaches. <

You don't understand what "FAITH ONLY" means.

>You say that works are the product of faith, yet you claim that faith WITHOUT any works is what saves. This most certainly is what you are saying. <

You don't understand what "FAITH ONLY" means.

>The truth of the matter is that Abraham was justified before God because he did what God told him to do.<

Abraham was accounted as righteous before he did anything. Genesis Chapter 15. Read the story. He heard God's word and believed. God accounted it as righteousness before their conversation was even over.

>So much for Max's proof that Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness BEFORE he OFFERED his son Isaac on the altar. <

Read chapter 15. God accounts Abraham righteous before their conversation even ends. His faith is "manifest" or "fulfilled" later when he accepts circumcision and all the other acts of obedience that follow from that faith in God's Promise. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son because he had faith that God would still keep his promise through Isaac somehow. God could see tis faith before Abraham did anything. God knew Abraham would obey. That's why God put a ram where he did beforehand.

>Yes we are saved by grace however, this does NOT mean that we don't have to DO anything to merit that grace. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith, NOT through faith ALONE. <

When I read these words, I truly feel compassion for you, Kevin. You don't know the beauty of God's free unconditional love. I pray you come to see it some day.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 29, 2004.


Max wrote, "Paul said Agrippa believed the prophets. That doesn't mean Agrippa was persuaded that Jesus was the Christ.. leading to faith in Jesus. Your credibility, not mine."

If Agrippa believed the prophets (and he did), then he believed Jesus for the prophets are the ones who spoke of Jesus.

I wrote, "You teach that man is justified by faith ALONE without works, and this is NOT what the word of God teaches."

To which Max replied, "You don't understand what "FAITH ONLY" means."

Actually, I understand CLEARLY what "faith only" means. You have made it CLEAR that it is one's faith WITHOUT any works are done is what saves.

Let us see it this is true: Max wrote, "Yes, BY FAITH etc. which means the attitude came first, then the action."

I most certainly UNDERSTAND what you mean by "faith only" which is faith with NO works.

I wrote, "You say that works are the product of faith, yet you claim that faith WITHOUT any works is what saves. This most certainly is what you are saying."

To which Max replied, "You don't understand what "FAITH ONLY" means."

Again, let us see if this is true: Max wrote, "When you stop working for God's favor and just believe that, for Christ's sake alone you are forgiven, you are considered by God to be righteous. You have his favor apart from works. "

Again, here is Max saying that faith WITHOUT works saves.

I wrote, "The truth of the matter is that Abraham was justified before God because he did what God told him to do."

To which Max replied, "Abraham was accounted as righteous before he did anything. Genesis Chapter 15. Read the story. He heard God's word and believed. God accounted it as righteousness before their conversation was even over."

Max continues to say that Abraham had his faith accounted as righteousness before he did anything however, scripture was NOT fulfilled UNTIL Abraham OBEYED God.

I wrote, "So much for Max's proof that Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness BEFORE he OFFERED his son Isaac on the altar. "

To which Max replied, "Read chapter 15. God accounts Abraham righteous before their conversation even ends. His faith is "manifest" or "fulfilled" later when he accepts circumcision and all the other acts of obedience that follow from that faith in God's Promise. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son because he had faith that God would still keep his promise through Isaac somehow. God could see tis faith before Abraham did anything. God knew Abraham would obey. That's why God put a ram where he did beforehand."

Actually, Abraham was NOT called the friend of God UNTIL he did what God COMMANDED. If God KNEW Abraham was going to OBEY Him, there would have been NO reason to TEST him. Abraham had his faith accounted to him for righteousness because he obeyed God.

I wrote, "Yes we are saved by grace however, this does NOT mean that we don't have to DO anything to merit that grace. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith, NOT through faith ALONE."

To which Max replied, "When I read these words, I truly feel compassion for you, Kevin. You don't know the beauty of God's free unconditional love. I pray you come to see it some day."

Actually, I do understand God's conditional love. His love is given to those who DO what He says. Those who claim that they are saved by faith ALONE without any works are twisting scriputures to their own destruction. Yes, faith saves however the ONLY faith that saves is the faith that OBEYS God's commandments. One is NOT saved by faith UNTIL they have their sins washed away in baptism. Those who claim faith ALONE salvation have been deceived. You have been advised of God's terms for salvation according to what has been written in the New Testament, it is up to you to obey. Don't waith until it is too LATE. (2 Thes. 1:7-9).

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 29, 2004.


>If Agrippa believed the prophets (and he did), then he believed Jesus for the prophets are the ones who spoke of Jesus. <

There were many who claimed to be the Christ that the prophets foretold. Are you telling me that Agrippa believed in every one of those who claimed to be the Christ?

Seriously... Agrippa didn't believe Paul's claim that Jesus was the promised Christ. He may have believed in the promised Christ, but he did not trust in Jesus as that Christ.

Agrippa did not believe in Jesus as the Christ that the prophets foretold. The reason he was "almost persuaded" was because he did believe that the Christ would come someday, but he failed to see that Jesus was that Christ, just as the Jews in general failed to see it and crucified Jesus, even though they still believed a Christ would come someday.

Agrippa did not believe in Jesus as you insist he did. If you can't see the distinction, I know it's not because I fail to help you see it.

>Actually, I understand CLEARLY what "faith only" means. You have made it CLEAR that it is one's faith WITHOUT any works are done is what saves.<

Faith justifies. Works are a natural result of a true living faith. God counts the person as righteous because of faith. God counts the FRUIT as righteous because they come from a TREE of faith.

>I most certainly UNDERSTAND what you mean by "faith only" which is faith with NO works.<

You just proved you don't understand by that very sentence.

>Max continues to say that Abraham had his faith accounted as righteousness before he did anything however, scripture was NOT fulfilled UNTIL Abraham OBEYED God. <

Read the story. You're having issues with the word "fulfilled" or some other language problem. The story is clear that God counted Abraham as righteous even as God and Abraham were conversing... even before Abraham did anything to prove himself faithful. Read it. Don't just say the word "fulfilled" and think that solves it. You are pouring your own meaning into the word "fulfilled" and not reading that God counted him as righteous right then and there. Not later.

>If God KNEW Abraham was going to OBEY Him, there would have been NO reason to TEST him.<

Did you just say what I think you said?

You're claiming God is not omniscient...

Perhaps this is one of the roots of the problems you're having.

God knows the beginning from the end. He also has control over it according to His good pleasure.

Anybody who denies this... well, I digress. I see the heart of the problem here.

I've definitely learned something here.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 30, 2004.


There are more than 300 prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament.

Paul said, "King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe." (Acts 26:27).

Paul spoke about Christ when he said in Acts 26:19-23, "19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come-- 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."

Paul was NOT talking about those who CLAIMED to be Christ NOR did he mention this in his defense.

The evidence is indisputable, Paul preached Christ to Festus and to Agrippa. Those who recognized the inspiration of the Old Testament looked forward to his coming, and many, on the basis of proof, obeyed Him for Agrippa said in Acts 26:28, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."

Agrippa believed that Christ was the Messiah and Paul preached the gospel to him however, like many people today this faith is NOT enough to DO what God commands one MUST do in order to be saved.

Yes, faith justifies and works ALSO justify. You only have half of the equation. It is faith AND works, NOT faith ALONE.

Check out this website: Justification: By Faith or Works?

I did read the story about Abraham and the Scripture was NOT fulfilled (that his faith was accounted to righteousness) UNTIL Abraham did what God COMMANDED him to accomplish. Obviously you do NOT understand what the word FULFILLED means. The words God spoke about the faith of Abraham were NOT fulfilled (accomplished) UNTIL he offered his son Isaac on the altar. (James 2:21). This is NOT hard to see, NOR is it hard to UNDERSTAND, the problem is that you do NOT want to see it NOR do you want to UNDERSTAND it because it disproves your faith ALONE theory!!!

I did NOT claim that God was not omniscient. You have a habit of putting words in my mouth.

Why did God test Abraham???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 01, 2004.


>The evidence is indisputable, Paul preached Christ to Festus and to Agrippa.<

Obviously he preached Jesus Christ. That goes without saying. Agrippa truly believed that the Christ (annointed one) would come. He did not, however, believe the man named Jesus of Nazereth was this Christ.

Agrippa believed in the prophecy of "the Christ." = Yes. Agrippa believed Jesus was "the Christ." = No. He was not persuaded.

There is not one scripture that says Agrippa was convinced that the man named Jesus of Nazereth was the Christ.

>If God KNEW Abraham was going to OBEY Him, there would have been NO reason to TEST him.<

You cannot escape your own words.

>Why did God test Abraham??? <

God tested Abraham to prove a point - among other reasons.

God didn't "test him" to see if he was good or not. God knew he'd pass the "test" and provided a ram in advance. God knew he'd pass because that was the only way the Christ would enter the world through his seed.

>If God KNEW Abraham was going to OBEY Him, there would have been NO reason to TEST him.<

What exactly did you mean by this statement if it didn't imply that God did not know what Abraham would do?

>If God KNEW Abraham was going to OBEY Him,<

You're setting up a condition against my claim that "God knew beforehand what Abraham would do."

>there would have been NO reason to TEST him.<

You obviously accept there was a "reason" to test Abraham.

Therefore, you are stating that God did not know what Abraham would do.

Because, if God knew what Abraham would do, there would be no reason to test him.

>If God KNEW Abraham was going to OBEY Him, there would have been NO reason to TEST him.<

You deny God's omniscience by your own words.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 01, 2004.


Max wrote, "There is not one scripture that says Agrippa was convinced that the man named Jesus of Nazereth was the Christ."

If Agrippa believed the prophets (and he did), then he believed that Jesus was the Christ. One can believe in Jesus Christ and still NOT do what He says.

Agrippa believed that Jesus was the Christ however his faith was NOT strong enough to become a Christian.

I wrote, "Why did God test Abraham???"

To which Max replied, "God tested Abraham to prove a point - among other reasons. God didn't "test him" to see if he was good or not. God knew he'd pass the "test" and provided a ram in advance. God knew he'd pass because that was the only way the Christ would enter the world through his seed."

Actually, if Abraham would not have obeyed God, someone else would have taken his place.

The ram had NOTHING to do with Abraham's test of faith.

We can continue to go back and forth on this and it is obvious that nothing that I say will change your mind.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 01, 2004.


>If Agrippa believed the prophets (and he did), then he believed that Jesus was the Christ.<

No. You can believe in the coming Messiah, like the Pharisees did, but reject that Jesus is the person he claims to be.

Just because Agrippa believed in a coming Messiah does not automatically mean he trusted Jesus as that Messiah. I'm not sure how you can't see the distinction here... it's simple. Even John the Baptist wasn't perfectly sure about who Jesus was when he was in jail.

>One can believe in Jesus Christ and still NOT do what He says.<

Of course, we're all sinners. Even you disobey Christ.

>Actually, if Abraham would not have obeyed God, someone else would have taken his place. <

The fact remains: you reject that God can foresee our actions.

This alone is blasphemy, especially for someone who claims to know/see the Word.

Of all the serious errors in your personal theology/philosophy, this is the one you need to deal with first. I pray God enlightens you.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 02, 2004.


Agrippa said that Paul ALMOST persuaded him to become a Christian. One can believe in Christ and still NOT be saved.

Max wrote, "The fact remains: you reject that God can foresee our actions. This alone is blasphemy, especially for someone who claims to know/see the Word."

No, I NEVER said that I rejected that God can forsee our actions, once again you put words in my mouth. I have done NO such thing.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 04, 2004.


"No, I NEVER said that I rejected that God can forsee our actions, once again you put words in my mouth. I have done NO such thing." - Kevin

Really now? Then please explain to the rest of us what you meant by this statement

"If God KNEW Abraham was going to OBEY Him, there would have been NO reason to TEST him."

You sure did try to make a point with that. Which is it?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 04, 2004.


"No, I NEVER said that I rejected that God can forsee our actions, once again you put words in my mouth" - Kevin, to Max

Right... But say you do believe God can forsee out actions... why the "If God KNEW.." stuff?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 04, 2004.


David,

Okay, so I used the WRONG wording. Now, did I say in my statement, "If God KNEW Abraham was going to OBEY Him, there would have been NO reason to TEST him." that God does NOT know everything???

If God knew Abraham was going to obey Him (and He did), why did God need to test Abraham???

Instead of pointing out my errors (which are many), how about answering the question???

You made an accusation on another thread that I had lost my credibility. I CHOSE not to respond because as is typical with you David, you make an accusation, but don't bother to back it up.

I have never stated that I was perfect and am far from it and I do make mistakes. When I am wrong, I admit that I am wrong, when are you going to do the same David???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 04, 2004.


Was Abraham the only intended pupil? I don't think so. What did Isaac get out of the whole experience? What about Abraham's people? The message should have been very strong and clear. The Messiah will arrive and Salvation will prove to exist for everyone if they accepted it.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 05, 2004.


>Agrippa said that Paul ALMOST persuaded him to become a Christian. One can believe in Christ and still NOT be saved. <

Again... Agrippa did not trust or rely on Jesus for his salvation. He may have believed in the CONCEPT of a Christ, but he did not trust in the PERSON named Jesus of Nazereth. He rejected faith in Jesus of Nazereth - not just in action, but in his heart.

Seriously... you cannot pass Agrippa off as someone who trusted Jesus in his heart for salvation. Don't waste your time.

>No, I NEVER said that I rejected that God can forsee our actions, once again you put words in my mouth. I have done NO such thing.<

Your words are clear.... "If God knew..." you can't get around the point you were making. You were obviously saying that God had no clue whether Abraham would pass the test or not - and that's why God gave the test in the first place. These are your own words and the clear intention of your post. It wasn't just a typo on your part or a minor mistake of an imperfect person. It's called heresy and a person who takes the role of a teacher or preacher in God's Name will have to account for it.

Such important doctrines shape our views on other important doctrines...

If you see God as a Being who doesn't know what's coming next and has no influence over who comes to believe etc. then your doctrines will reflect those errors.

If God knows a person truly believes, He knows they will manifest good fruit... Any heretic can get baptized. Only God's elect will honestly trust in Him... and honest trust will always manifest itself in actions.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 07, 2004.


Max wrote, "Again... Agrippa did not trust or rely on Jesus for his salvation. He may have believed in the CONCEPT of a Christ, but he did not trust in the PERSON named Jesus of Nazereth. He rejected faith in Jesus of Nazereth - not just in action, but in his heart."

Paul said that Agrippa believed the prophets concerning Jesus however, his faith was NOT strong enough to obey the gospel so, he was not saved. One can believe in Jesus Christ and not be saved.

Max wrote, "Seriously... you cannot pass Agrippa off as someone who trusted Jesus in his heart for salvation. Don't waste your time."

Paul said Agrippa did believe in Christ, that is why he was "almost persuaded" to become a Christian.

I wrote, "No, I NEVER said that I rejected that God can forsee our actions, once again you put words in my mouth. I have done NO such thing."

To which Max replied, "Your words are clear.... "If God knew..." you can't get around the point you were making. You were obviously saying that God had no clue whether Abraham would pass the test or not - and that's why God gave the test in the first place. These are your own words and the clear intention of your post. It wasn't just a typo on your part or a minor mistake of an imperfect person. It's called heresy and a person who takes the role of a teacher or preacher in God's Name will have to account for it."

My words are also clear that I made a mistake. How can you stated "It wasn't just a type on your part or a minor mistake of an imperfect person"??? Do you claim to know all things Max??? I stated that my post was in error, why is this so hard for you to accept??? I clearly did not intend for my post to be read that God does not know all things for this is not true.

You wrote, "If God knows a person truly believes, He knows they will manifest good fruit... Any heretic can get baptized. Only God's elect will honestly trust in Him... and honest trust will always manifest itself in actions."

The truth of the matter is if one desires to obey God, they will do what He has commanded. Those who obey the gospel, but do not grow as Christians, nor grow as Christ has commanded in John 15:6, He says: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 11, 2004.


Mr. Walker opined,"One can believe in Jesus Christ and not be saved."

Jn 1:12-13, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jn 3:15, That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 3:36, He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jn 6:27-29, Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jn 6:35, And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jn 6:40, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life

Jn 7:38, He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jn 11:25-26, Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jn 12:36, While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Jn 12:46, I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Jn 20:29, Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jn 20:31, But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 11, 2004.


Mr. Walker opined,"Paul said Agrippa did believe in Christ, that is why he was "almost persuaded" to become a Christian."

Right, but did he become a Christian? Yes or No? No he didn't. Only Christians are saved, so this point you are trying to make is getting old and is already refuted. I'm sorry, but I can't let you keep regurgitating this, it's getting old.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 11, 2004.


A basketball player ALMOST made that game winning shot. Did he make the shot? No.

The runaway criminal ALMOST died in that car accident. Did he died? No.

Same thing with the King, he ALMOST believed, but didn't.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 11, 2004.


The better question is, "Who is this moderator who decides when to bring discussions to a halt?"

Can we censor Mr. Moderator?

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 12, 2004.


This is a warning, Kevin,

The point you were trying to make with King Agrippa has been refuted countless times. Regurgitating it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over does not and is not refuting Max's post.

Any further post by you that mentions the King will be deleted. Please don't waste your time in responding to my (this) post, it will just get deleted.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 12, 2004.


Moderator,

Please explain why recent posts on this thread have been deleted???

Have these posts violated forum rules, and if so which one(s)???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 14, 2004.


bump...

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 15, 2004.

Dear Moderator, you have deleted the following, yet you have not provided an explanation:

Please answer to our questions on the following:

................................................


The better question is, "Who is this moderator who decides when to bring discussions to a halt?"

Can we censor Mr. Moderator?

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 12, 2004.


This is a warning, Kevin,

The point you were trying to make with King Agrippa has been refuted countless times. Regurgitating it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over does not and is not refuting Max's post.

Any further post by you that mentions the King will be deleted. Please don't waste your time in responding to my (this) post, it will just get deleted.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@ho tmail.com), July 12, 2004.


Rod,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you asked the question, "Who is this moderator who decides when to bring discussions to a halt?"

He claims that the point I made was refuted countless times however, this is merely his opinion.

I suppose that anyone who does not agree with his point of view will now be summarily deleted if "in his opinion" it has already been refuted countless times.

I wonder if this will apply to all posters, or just those who do not hold to his particular viewpoint???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 14, 2004.


Hey, Kevin,

We finally agree on something!

Moderator, you are a little too zealous in your attempts at streamlining our forum. If one of us gets tired of arguing the same point, we can all do what freedom allows and LEAVE!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 14, 2004.


Gail,

Thanks for your support!!!

Actually, there are many things in which we agree, we have not really talked about those issues and have instead focused on our disagreements. :-)

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 14, 2004.


How many generations has the Gospel been "regurgitated"?

Let's all be free and have our Good News to spread!! One group will read and understand according to their beliefs and others by their own. Hey, some people even read from right to left and others down towards up. We don't need Big Brother tellings us what to read and what not to read. This is still the home of the brave and land of the free, yes?

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 14, 2004.

....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


This thread is now closed. The continuation of this discussion can be found here

-- (Christian_Moderator@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.