What is the Church's position on Communism and Socialism?

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I'm a regular over at the Anarchy II forum. I consider myself anti-establishment, because I'm a Socialist. I'm not really interested in converting but I was just curious, what is the Catholic Church's position on Communism and Socialism. Usualy when I ask this question, people immediately say that both Communism ans Socialism are evil, because they associate them with the Soviet Union and Red China. Let me clarify this for you.

This is wrong for several reasons. First of all, Russia and China were never Communist. There has never been a true Communist country in the world. If you read the Communist Mannifesto, by Marx and Engles (I really would recomend it, even if you don't aggree with any of it. It gives a lot of insight the political events of 19th Century Europe and what fueled them), you'll note that Communism calls for the means of production (all the farms, factories, mines, ect.) to be in the hands of the people, and to be run by them, equaly and collectively. In Soviet Russia and Red China, as in North Korea, and Vietnam, and Cuba, and Cambodia, and any other "Communist" nation you can think of, the the means of production was in the hands of a few members of the inner party. Marx also wanted there to be no private employment. No one should employ anyone else for profit. In Russia, everyone was employed by the inner party for their profit. Russia and China actualy turned out to be quite the opposite of what Marx strived for.

I am a Socialist because I beleive that it reaches the right balance between Capitalism and Communism. Capitalism is about equal opportunity. It's a nice theory, but in practice, the evil people of the world screw everyone else over to get what they want. Communism is about equal outcome. Also a nice theory, but in practice, the evil people of the world slack off and let everyone else do their work and the economy stagnates. In Socialism, the community works together for it's neccesities (food, water, power, healthcare, law enforcement, ect.), and everyone works on their own for luxuries (a new BMW, a big screen T.V., lobster, ect.). There is an incentive to work, but people always have the safety net of the community. Socialism is all about helping the poor, so I would think the Church would be on it's side. Karl Marx even said "The Church, in it's mission to help the poor and dissenfranchised, is a true friend of Communism." I don't know, though. You tell me.

-- Anti-bush (bizkitnut666@hotmail.com), July 23, 2003

Answers

Hi,

You can find Pope Leo XIII's teachings on labour, etc. at this site.

It's kind of long and involved, but it makes sense if you get into it.

G.K. Chesterton and Hillaire Belloc (I think) also wrote a lot on the topic.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), July 23, 2003.


Hi ANti Bush

For a good underestanding of the communism from a Catholic perspective go here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04179a.htm

For socialism work your way through this stuff and youll have a better understanding of the Catholic position. Good luck :)

1938 There exist also sinful inequalities that affect millions of men and women. These are in open contradiction of the Gospel: Their equal dignity as persons demands that we strive for fairer and more humane conditions. Excessive economic and social disparity between individuals and peoples of the one human race is a source of scandal and militates against social justice, equity, human dignity, as well as social and international peace.44 1940 Solidarity is manifested in the first place by the distribution of goods and remuneration for work. It also presupposes the effort for a more just social order where tensions are better able to be reduced and conflicts more readily settled by negotiation. 1941 Socio-economic problems can be resolved only with the help of all the forms of solidarity: solidarity of the poor among themselves, between rich and poor, of workers among themselves, between employers and employees in a business, solidarity among nations and peoples. International solidarity is a requirement of the moral order; world peace depends in part upon this.

“The Church views man as a social creature and but is well aware of your fears of communisim, this is known as the principal of subsidisation. It is no surprise to find most Catholic parties are based not only on moral conservatism but a social conscience, a caring social humanist part, a party of "common sense"...which normally finds itself as a centerist party. There is one thing undeniable... the principles that underly many aspects of conservative economic and politcal philosophy are strongly condemended by the Church as strongly as it condems collectivism. “

1882 Certain societies, such as the family and the state, correspond more directly to the nature of man; they are necessary to him. To promote the participation of the greatest number in the life of a society, the creation of voluntary associations and institutions must be encouraged "on both national and international levels, which relate to economic and social goals, to cultural and recreational activities, to sport, to various professions, and to political affairs."5 This "socialization" also expresses the natural tendency for human beings to associate with one another for the sake of attaining objectives that exceed individual capacities. It develops the qualities of the person, especially the sense of initiative and responsibility, and helps guarantee his rights.6 1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."7

The development of the doctrine of the Church on economic and social matters attests the permanent value of the Church's teaching at the same time as it attests the true meaning of her Tradition, always living and active.201 Any system in which social relationships are determined entirely by economic factors is contrary to the nature of the human person and his acts.203 2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.204

Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. "You cannot serve God and mammon."206 2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with "communism" or "socialism." She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of "capitalism," individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended. 2426 The development of economic activity and growth in production are meant to provide for the needs of human beings. Economic life is not meant solely to multiply goods produced and increase profit or power; it is ordered first of all to the service of persons, of the whole man, and of the entire human community. Economic activity, conducted according to its own proper methods, is to be exercised within the limits of the moral order, in keeping with social justice so as to correspond to God's plan for man.209

2428 In work, the person exercises and fulfills in part the potential inscribed in his nature. The primordial value of labor stems from man himself, its author and its beneficiary. Work is for man, not man for work.214 Everyone should be able to draw from work the means of providing for his life and that of his family, and of serving the human community. 2429 Everyone has the right of economic initiative; everyone should make legitimate use of his talents to contribute to the abundance that will benefit all and to harvest the just fruits of his labor. He should seek to observe regulations issued by legitimate authority for the sake of the common good.215 2430 Economic life brings into play different interests, often opposed to one another. This explains why the conflicts that characterize it arise.216 Efforts should be made to reduce these conflicts by negotiation that respects the rights and duties of each social partner: those responsible for business enterprises, representatives of wage- earners (for example, trade unions), and public authorities when appropriate.

2431 The responsibility of the state. "Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. . . . Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society."217

2432 Those responsible for business enterprises are responsible to society for the economic and ecological effects of their operations.218 They have an obligation to consider the good of persons and not only the increase of profits. Profits are necessary, however. They make possible the investments that ensure the future of a business and they guarantee employment. 2433 Access to employment and to professions must be open to all without unjust discrimination: men and women, healthy and disabled, natives and immigrants.219 For its part society should, according to circumstances, help citizens find work and employment.220 2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good."222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages. 2436 It is unjust not to pay the social security contributions required by legitimate authority. Unemployment almost always wounds its victim's dignity and threatens the equilibrium of his life. Besides the harm done to him personally, it entails many risks for his family.223 2437 On the international level, inequality of resources and economic capability is such that it creates a real "gap" between nations.224 On the one side there are those nations possessing and developing the means of growth and, on the other, those accumulating debts. 2438 Various causes of a religious, political, economic, and financial nature today give "the social question a worldwide dimension."225 There must be solidarity among nations which are already politically interdependent. It is even more essential when it is a question of dismantling the "perverse mechanisms" that impede the development of the less advanced countries.226 In place of abusive if not usurious financial systems, iniquitous commercial relations among nations, and the arms race, there must be substituted a common effort to mobilize resources toward objectives of moral, cultural, and economic development, "redefining the priorities and hierarchies of values."227

2439 Rich nations have a grave moral responsibility toward those which are unable to ensure the means of their development by themselves or have been prevented from doing so by tragic historical events. It is a duty in solidarity and charity; it is also an obligation in justice if the prosperity of the rich nations has come from resources that have not been paid for fairly. 2440 Direct aid is an appropriate response to immediate, extraordinary needs caused by natural catastrophes, epidemics, and the like. But it does not suffice to repair the grave damage resulting from destitution or to provide a lasting solution to a country's needs. It is also necessary to reform international economic and financial institutions so that they will better promote equitable relationships with less advanced countries.228 The efforts of poor countries working for growth and liberation must be supported.229 This doctrine must be applied especially in the area of agricultural labor. Peasants, especially in the Third World, form the overwhelming majority of the poor.

2441 An increased sense of God and increased self-awareness are fundamental to any full development of human society. This development multiplies material goods and puts them at the service of the person and his freedom. It reduces dire poverty and economic exploitation. It makes for growth in respect for cultural identities and openness to the transcendent.230 2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity "to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice."231



-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 23, 2003.


Thanks, it was very informative.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), September 28, 2003.

Hi Anti Bush your personal opinon about a middle road in the "individual vs group" economic question is one the Curch shares completely. The more you examine the teachings of the Catholic Church on social justice issues the more I am sure you will be imporessed by the clarity of thought and truth that shines through these teachings.

I hope you explore these and othe r teachings further.

Im no great Catholic myself, but love fighting for the Churchs voice even if Im not the best example of Christ myself. I hate it when Catholic moral hypocrites jump up and down on only one issue- sexuality. It says more about their upbringing than anyhthing to do with Christ and reminds me of a very amusing song by Lou Reed about Robert Dole (amongst others) entitled "sex with your parents" ...say no more.

These self righteous pompous clowns tend to have very selective hearing when listening to Gods words on social justice(its been hijacked by socialists so we dont have to listen is the general position) What they fail to realise is the Church is essential socialist in these teachings. These are the people who disobey virtually ever Catholic moral teaching on social/economic issues, the upright business "leaders" of the lay community who have made their wealth through the expliotation of others yet are never refused communion, indeed in a sickening bout of hypocriscy these are the men and women who are often hand our the blessed scraments. Yuk, it must stop, the sooner these criminals with are stopped from recieving communion yet alone assisting the priest the better. The youth of today can see straight through the double standards and selective morality of these hypocrites who sermoise on sexual morals with such zeal. Yes the "creative" accountant, the "honest" lawyer the "sucessful" business person are often the real crooks and greatest sinners in our church not the girl with a short skirt and tight top.

To be clever enough to get all that money, one must be stupid enough to want it.

--G. K. Chesterton

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 29, 2003.


slight over rection of course above but its the holistic approach to morality thats often missing from those who cast the first stones is the point i make. anti Bush i urge you to go to your second hand book store and pick up a copy of the Catholic Catechism or try amazon.om they should be very cheap. E mail me if you cant get your hands on a hardcopy and wish to read what the Catholic Church teaches as Ill post you an old book . Its fascinating in its logic/reason and common sense(if such a sense exists). Well worth reading if only for you to inform yourself on what Catholics really beleive in regard to your area of interest: politics and econmics.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.


Is the European community "socialist" in your view? Is any city or nation "socialist" - according to your definition of it?

It seems to me that the problem with these utopian political schemes is...they don't take into account the human nature of the people we are trying to help! I mean, on paper it seems to work: equality of outcomes... yet people are different, have different talents, different needs, different levels of human perfection... different cultures, religions, beliefs, etc.

Historical communists and socialists were faced with people who simply disagreed with them that their utopian state was do-able and desirable...so what did the commies and socialists do? Resort to violence.

I think it's noble to desire a utopia or more perfect social scene...but if you don't know what man is and don't take into account human diversity, how can you hope to persuade people to your cause?

If Captitalism means equality of opportunity, then it has indeed produced more freedom and more material wealth than any other political theory. It's not perfect - but then neither was the "equality of outcomes" championed by the communists! And by and large capitalism doesn't begin by positing that man is not spiritual, is not free, and can not be trusted with civil and political power.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 30, 2003.


I hate it when Catholic moral hypocrites jump up and down on only one issue- sexuality. It says more about their upbringing than anyhthing to do with Christ and reminds me of a very amusing song by Lou Reed about Robert Dole (amongst others) entitled 'sex with your parents' ...say no more. These self righteous pompous clowns tend to have very selective hearing when listening to Gods words on social justice(its been hijacked by socialists so we dont have to listen is the general position)

Mr. Kiwi, you'd better stop committing big sins of rash judgment here. Just quietly clean up your own vice-strewn back yard, and stop making assumptions about other people as a way of rationalizing your imperfections.

Years of life-experience show that many of the same people who seem, to those with a guilty conscience, to "jump up and down on only one issue -- sexuality" are actually striving to be good Catholics "across the board." Many of them believe in the Church's WHOLE teaching, including the "social gospel." Many of them are far MORE generous to the poor than are the blabber-mouth political liberals who want to put them down.

A case in point? Someone at this forum who is very vocal about obeying the Church's teachings on sexual morality has been unjustly branded by you as an ultra-conservative Republican yahoo (or words to that effect). Through sheer ignorance and stereotypical behavior, you have jumped to false conclusions about this person. You don't realize that this person used to vote only for Democrats and wants to do so again. You don't realize that this person (a "Caucasian") once left a cozy office job to do unpaid work with Mother Teresa's sisters and brothers in an all-"Black" third-world nation. You don't realize that this person -- who gives up 1/3 of middle-class wages to taxes -- doesn't just tithe, but gives away 40% of the remaining (net) wages to the impoverished and to other charitable and religious causes. Why? Because money is not this person's "end" in life, and because those in great need cannot be neglected.

Mr. Kiwi, jettison your habit of assuming that the people who have strong morals tend to reject other segments of Church teaching. Stop the ridiculous thinking that these moral people hate the poor and make a god out of money. That nonsense is propaganda from ultra-liberal pro-death losers. The fact is that conservative pro-lifers are more likely than pro-abortion liberals to be the people who are serving the poor at soup kitchens and shelters and sending big sums of money to agencies that help the poor around the world.

Don't buy the myths any more. But do feel sorry for insulting those who didn't deserve to be maligned.

-- (UOughta@Be.Ashamed), September 30, 2003.


Someone in here is a member of Opus Dei?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 30, 2003.

Hi Joe you really should try to stop your senile relative/ opius dei freak (art?) from posting. I cant reply, v. busy today to reply to your post as I agree with most of what you write and Ill also take great pleasure in toying with the faceless little creep aboves mindless thoughts at the same time.

Until then see you

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.


Huh? You talking about me Kiwi? Have you been drinking or something? What about my post could possibly be antagonistic? I point to the obvious and ask our anarchist/socialist friend a question... not you.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 01, 2003.


Hi Joe were not that far apart on this one for a change, I think my idea of socialism is a little wider than what is traditonaly percieved and I reckon youd be a socilist by my defintion although we would have very different ways of achieving it. Im sorry if my thoughts are little simplistic but well thats where I operating at on these type of issues, maybe Im just an idealist but well theres room in Christs Church for us all, there always has been and will be. Your politcs dont really bother me its the way you degrade others view of the world as inferior irrational and unchristian etc etc that bugs me. But whatever I couldnt really care less about much, thats half my problem. The incentive of the market is vital, everyone knows the benefits the effiency of resourse allocation the market can bring, NOTHING has done more to alleviate poverty in the world in the last 50 years than the operations of the free market, China is the latest nation to reap the benefits of that. There is of course however relative "winners and losers" in the market, scarcity ensures that when someone wins its at the expense of someone else somewhere, the gap bwteen the have and have nots widens and with each generation the advatage and oppurtunities affoded the "haves" makes the gapo even wider with horredous implications . Implicit with this is often a change in focus a move away from a caring society to a selfish individual greed fueled culture, where the mighty dollar rules and people are little mmore than a "factor of production".

The Protestant work ethic distorts the value of "work" in the sense Catholic understand it, again is something so heavily ingrained in the AMerican pschye it places many of you from my reading in constant conflict with Christs teachings. The philosohy that man is always wanting to improve himself, that the only goal is happiness and that the means dont matter place the far right pure market philosphies , the "prisioner dilemas" regarding individual/group decisions have shown the obvious flaws in such thinking even without considering the offence to Gods laws such idelogies causeas far apart if not further apart from Christs Church than even Communism. Its fascinating just to see how intertwined indiviudal "rights", freedom and sanctity of the indiviual, selfishness,utilitarianism and Ayn RAnd combine to form the basis of Santanism, something Im getting into.

Id love to tell you which country has got the mix right in terms as good a mix of the market and intervention needless to say very few economists would hold AMerica up as the "ideal scoiety" despite the high per captis income, its how we treat and l;ook after the most vulnerable that we all should jusge a society and on that count yours and my societies does a poor job. It neednt be this way but it takes a new way of approaching social justice issues. I suggest we all look to the Church for such guidance Im ranting and Ive lost my desire to pick on your mate. I cant even be bothered responding to their tangents theres some truth in their words but the tangents and connections they make are bizzare to say the least. My word of advice to my faceless pal, quit while Im offering you an olive branch champ.

Besides theres more importnat heretics to deal with in regard to our new found self styled high priestess of infallibility "Lady Psycho", living proof that witches are far from gone. Im going to have to dig around and do some reading bfore frying her completley but her arguments are so full of holes- she wont be round long.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 01, 2003.


combine to form the basis of Santanism, something Im getting into.

whoops, I didnt mean it like that! typing errors I think you get the idea of what Im saying the middle path brother Joe

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 01, 2003.


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