Instrumental Music in Worshipgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
Is the practice of instrumental music in the worship a teaching of God or a teaching of men?
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 21, 2003
If it is a teaching of God, then you will have to be able to find somewhere in the New Testament where God has authorized it.There is NOT a single passage in all the New Testament mentioning instruments of music in the worship of God, let alone commanding that we use it in worship.
Therefore, instruments of music in the public worship is a teaching of the doctrines and commandments of men. "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 21, 2003.
Where does it say "Thou shall not use the instrument".
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.
David,We are COMMANDED to sing, NOT play. If an instrument is allowed in worship to God, He certainly would have said this was acceptable.
Please quote me the Scripture(s) where playing an "instrument" in worship is authorized?
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 22, 2003.
Show me in the scriptures where is authorized us to use pants. What it doesn't say it? We better ditch our pants and wear cloaks or vests. Show me where in the N.T. where it tells us to drive a car to church. What is doesn't say it? We better ditch that too, and walk to church like Jesus and the apostles. Show me in the N.T. where it shows the use of paper money. What it doesn't say it? I guess we must ditch that too. Return your nice shoes and get some sandals, take off the watch and bust out a sun dial, ditch the glasses and pray for a miracle, stop speaking American English and learn Aramaic. Who in your church's history started this nonsense of not playing musical instruments in church? It is what is in your HEART that God looks at, NOT your actions.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.
2 Chronicles 7:6 - And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of musick of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood.
-- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), July 22, 2003.
David,Instead of answering the question, you ventured out into territory which does NOT even remotely have anything to do with the topic of instrumental music.
In the Old Testament, God asked for singing + instrumental music for use in worship (2 Chronicles 29:25-26; Psalm 150). It was something they could be sure about.
In the New Testament, God just asks for singing (Ephesians 5:19) or the "fruit of lips" (Hebrews 13:15). Hence, singing was something that the worshiper could absolutely be sure about.
After the church came into being and for at least 400 or so years, God was given just what he asked for (singing). As a result, the word "a cappella" came into being and was the term for "music in the church style."
Before the New Testament was completed, the church used the Old Testament scriptures as their primary source (Acts 17:11; 18:28, etc.). They had the very scriptures before them that approved and encouraged the use of instruments right down to the naming of specific types (2 Chronicles 29:25-26; Psalm 150). And at the time of the early church, instruments were available and many Christians had the talent to play them ... yet this talent was not exercised in worship! The Old Testament scripture was not followed.
That instrumental music was absent from Christian worship during the days of the inspired Apostolic teaching (John 14:26; Acts 2: 42) proves that the Apostles, who were very familiar with the use of instruments in Temple worship, never encouraged churches to use them.
The above also means that the Holy Spirit never encouraged churches to use instruments (John 14:26) in spite of the fact that it once did so in a direct way (2 Chronicles 29:25ff).
Ephesians 5:19 has two parts: Singing + Making Melody. The "making melody" is translated from the Greek word "psallo." It means to "pluck or twang." The phrase that follows tells where this action takes place. It is "in the heart" and not on a harp.
The design of the New Covenant worship will be different than that of the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31; John 4:23; Hebrews 7:12; 9:1, 9:10, 10:1). Many physical things of the Old pointed to their true substance in the New. For example, in the Old it was the priests that offered physical sacrifices to God, but in the New everyone is a priest with spiritual sacrifices to offer (1 Peter 2:5).
It is specifically the "fruit of lips" that is the sacrifice of praise asked for (Hebrews 13:15) and not the sounds from man-made devices.
Once again David, you do err not knowing the truth, God does look at OUR ACTIONS, for it is by our WORKS [actions] that we will be judged. (See Matt. 16:27, Rom. 2:6, 2 Cor. 5:10, Jas. 2:24, Rev. 20:12, 22:12).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 22, 2003.
David,In the Old Testament, Levites were called to worship in the temple with instruments of music (2 Chron. 5:11-13, Ps. 81:1-3, 98:4-6, 149:2-3).
In the New Testament, believers are called to worship in the Spirit with heart and lips (Heb. 13:15, Eph. 5:18-19, Col. 3:16).
Much of the argument in the New Testament (e.g. Acts 7, Galatians 3, Hebrews 7-10) is in order to show that Old Testament ceremonial worship is ABOLISHED.
There were many things in Old Testament ceremonial worship that were NOT a part of worship in the New Testament church.
In the Old Testament ceremonial worship, there were: Images (Exod. 25:18-19, 36:8), Priests (Exod. 40:13-15), Incense (Exod. 30:8), Candles (Exod. 25:31), etc.
All of these were given, as the New Testament informs us, as "a FIGURE for the time then present" (Heb. 9:9 - emphasis mine). They were "imposed" (by divine commandment) "until the time of reformation" (Heb. 9:10). They were "patterns of things in the heavens" (Heb. 8:5), which things now belong to us because of the finished work and present intercession of Christ (Heb. 9:24, 12:18- 24).
In the Old Testament period, worship (except that which was performed by the priests and Levites at the temple in Jerusalem) was commonly offered without musical instruments. Worship in the ancient synagogue was always devoid of such. So was the worship of the early church. NEVER in the New Testament do we find mention of their (musical instruments) use. What we do find is an abundance of teaching to the effect that the whole system of tabernacle and temple worship (shadowy and typical in nature) has been ABOLISHED. It follows, therefore, that the use of musical instruments is NOT AUTHORIZED in the worship of the church today.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 22, 2003.
So all who use instruments are sinning?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.
Absolutely for they are NOT AUTHORIZED by God in the New Testament worship of the church!!! We are COMMANDED to sing, and there is NOT one Scripture reference to play an instrument of music.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 22, 2003.
Kevin, what is your denomination called? Are you the same Kevin that was banned (along with me for 'anti-catholic' statements) from the "Catholic" forum?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.
Is it a branch of the "churches of Christ" denominations?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.
By church I mean the building you attend to.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.
David,I am NOT a member of a denomination and yes, I am the same Kevin that was banned from the Catholic forum.
I am a member of the church of Christ, and the church of Christ where I worship is NOT a denomination. We are an autonomous congregation of the Lord's church and answer to no one except our Lord Jesus Christ.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 22, 2003.
Agh, I see now why Catholics rather just stay Catholics. And Why did you not speak against the Rapture and Speaking in tongues threads back in the Catholic forum? Or did you even notice I was there?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.
Agh, you are a Campbellite aren't you?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.
David,If I would have argued on several different threads in the Catholic forum at once, it would have expedited my removal by them for they CANNOT defend their faith from the word of God for their doctrines are far from the NT church of the Bible.
No, I am NOT a "Campbellite" as you so state, and if you insist on giving me this label, then I would like to suggest that you PROVE IT!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 22, 2003.
k.v.How about some verses from the New Testament which CONFIRM that one can use them in our worship service today???
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 22, 2003.
Revelations 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
-- ___ (__@__.__), July 23, 2003.
Anonymous,Most things in the book of Revelation are symbolic, NOT literal and there is NO evidence the harps in heaven are literal.
Should we take harps literally and put them in our worship service? I have yet to see a harp in any denominational worship service.
It is simply amazing that when people want to justify instruments in the worship of the NT church, they go everywhere EXCEPT to the instructions given to the NT church!!!
First they run to the OT to try to show what we should use in the NT and then when that doesn’t work, then they go to heaven to try to show what we should do on earth. Why can’t you find instruments in the passages talking about worship in the NT church? I’ll tell you why, because they are NOT there!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 23, 2003.
First, What does the New Testament say about the use of musical instruments in worship?According to I Corinthians 14:26, it was a usual practice to sing with accompaniment. I Corinthians 14:26 KJV; How is it then brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a PSALM, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revalation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Ephesians 5:19 tells us to use musical instruments in worship: Ephesians 5:18-19 KJV; And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in PSALMS and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord.
Colosians 3:16; Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in PSALMS and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Young's Analytical Concordance defines the word "psalms" as found in these scriptures as: Greek; PSALMOS: A song of praise (ON AN INSTRUMENT).
E. W. Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words also defines the Greek word PSALMOS as: "to sing with the accompaniment of musical instruments."
Even Webster's Dictionary states that psalms means "to pull, twitch, or play on a stringed instrument." The word in the New Testament that we translate "baptism" comes from the Greek word "baptismos" and we generally agree that this word means "to immerse." In the same way, the word "Psalmos" when found in the New Testament always means "songs sung with the accompaniment of musical instruments," even when it refers to "The Book of Psalms."
Bible Questions and Answers
-- __ (__@__.__), July 23, 2003.
Ephesians 5:19 has two parts: Singing + Making Melody. The "making melody" is translated from the Greek word "psallo." It means to "pluck or twang." The PHRASE THAT FOLLOWS "in the HEART" tells where this action takes place. It is IN THE HEART and NOT on a harp or on some instrumental music.God HAS SPECIFIED the kind of music He wants!!!
Matthew 26:30 - "And when they had SUNG a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives." Acts 16:25 - "But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and SINGING hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them." Romans 15:9 - "and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: 'For this reason I will confess to you among the Gentiles; And SING to Your name'." 1 Corinthians 14:15 - "What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding; I will SING with the spirit, and I will also SING with the understanding." Ephesians 5:19 - "Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING and making melody in your heart to the Lord," Colossians 3:16 - "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Hebrews 2:12 - "saying: 'I will declare your name to My brethren; in the midst of the assembly I will SING praise to You'."
Note that EVERY passage specifies SINGING.
By adding the instrument, men ADD to the word of God and violate His specific instruction.
We are now under the "New Covenant" (Heb. 8:7-12). God has made the first Covenant obsolete (Heb. 8:13).
Every example of music practiced by Christians was vocal. (Matthew 26:30, Acts 16:25, Romans 15:9, I Corinthians 14:15, Hebrews 2:12) Every command concerning Christians and music was a command to practice vocal music instead of instrumental music. (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16) The ONLY music commanded in the New Testament is vocal.
It is a specific command, therefore it excludes all other kinds of music.
No where in the New Testament does Christ, or an inspired man command the use of instruments of music. There is no command for its use in the church, there is no example of it being used by the church, there is no hint that it was used.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 23, 2003.
The word SING in Rom. 15:9; 1 Cor. 14:15; James 5:13, and MAKE MELODY in Eph. 5:19 are translated from the Greek word PSALLO. The word PSALM in 1 Cor. 14:26; Eph. 5:19; and Col. 3:16 is translated from the Greek word PSALMOS. Some Greek lexicons say that these words can mean to sing to the accompaniment of a harp. Some people argue that this authorizes the use of instrumental music in worship.The word PSALLO is consistently translated as SING or MAKE MELODY in your heart, and PSALMOS is translated PSALM or HYMN. Not one major English translation ever says SING WITH A HARP or any other expression that IMPLIES the use of musical instruments. From reading the English translations of the Bible, NO ONE would ever believe that instruments are included in the worship of the NT church if they weren’t already indoctrinated as such by their denomination for one CANNOT get this understanding by only reading the NT. If PSALLO and PSALMOS include the use of instruments, why don't the English translations state this as a fact that they are to be used in worship?
The men who made these translations were members of churches that use instruments in their worship to God! If these words [PSALLO and PSALMOS] imply the use of instruments, why did these men NOT translate as such in order to defend their practice? These men knew by the time the NT was written and in the context of NT passages, the words PSALLO and PSALMOS did NOT and DO NOT refer to instruments!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 23, 2003.
Are Musical Instruments Forbidden in Church?
-- __ (__@__.__), July 23, 2003.
PSALLO (NAS lexicon) # to pluck off, pull out
# to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang
\ 1. to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate
2. to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc.
3. to sing to the music of the harp
-- __ (__@__.__), July 23, 2003.
1 Chrion.25 Levites used Instruments in Ps.150
The Psalms exhort us to sing and make music to the Lord (e.g. Psalm 67:4f; 92:lff; 95:lff; 96:lff; 98:1ff). Old Testament prophets often prophesied with music (1 Samuel 10:6ff; 1 Chronicles 25:1). In fact, such was the power of prophetic music that it could drive away demons (1 Samuel 16:23) or release the hand of God (2 Kings 3:15).
At the last supper, Jesus and his disciples sang a hymn (Mathew 26:30). While there are no explicit biblical references to the use of musical instruments in the early church, there are clear indications that singing was an integral part of worship. Paul and Silas sang aloud when imprisoned in Philippi (Acts 16:25). Paul instructed the believers in both Ephesus and Colossae to use psalms and hymns and spiritual songs in their meetings together. In this way they could both give thanks to God (Colossians 3:16) and teach one another (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). Further, what seem to be early Christian hymns are quoted by Paul (Philippians 2:5-11; 1 Timothy 3:16).often these were accompanied by instruments.
2 Chr 30:21 So the children of Israel who were present at Jerusalem kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with great gladness; and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, singing to the LORD, accompanied by loud instruments.
Neh 12:27 Now at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought out the Levites in all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem to celebrate the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings and singing, with cymbals and stringed instruments and harps.
2 Sam 6:5Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the LORD on all kinds of instruments of fir wood, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on sistrums, and on cymbals.
1 Chr 13:8Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.
1 Chr 15:16Then David spoke to the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers accompanied by instruments of music, stringed instruments, harps, and cymbals, by raising the voice with resounding joy.
1 Chr 16:5Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, then Jeiel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Mattithiah, Eliab, Benaiah, and Obed-Edom: Jeiel with stringed instruments and harps, but Asaph made music with cymbals;
1 Chr 25:1Moreover David and the captains of the army separated for the service some of the sons of Asaph, of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, stringed instruments, and cymbals. And the number of the skilled men performing their service was:
2 Chr 9:11And the king made walkways of the algum wood for the house of the LORD and for the king's house, also harps and stringed instruments for singers; and there were none such as these seen before in the land of Judah.
2 Chr 30:21So the children of Israel who were present at Jerusalem kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with great gladness; and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, singing to the LORD, accompanied by loud instruments.
Neh 12:27Now at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought out the Levites in all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem to celebrate the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings and singing, with cymbals and stringed instruments and harps.
Ps 68:25The singers went before, the players on instruments followed after; among them were the maidens playing timbrels.
Ps 150:4-5Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!Praise Him with loud cymbals; praise Him with clashing cymbals!
Eccl 2:8I also gathered for myself silver and gold and the special treasures of kings and of the provinces. I acquired male and female singers the delights of the sons of men and musical instruments of all kinds
Musical instruments can be used for God or the Devil. We certainly have the freedom to do this. the fact is God does not forbid it.
-- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), July 23, 2003.
In Eph. 5:19 "Psallo" means "To pluck/twang" so there must be an instrument involved. Yes, but what is to be plucked? Eph. 5:19 says it is the HEART! Otherwise, ALL would have to play an instrument! Definition of the word psallo:
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of N.T. Words: "In the N.T., to sing a hymn, sing praise”
Thayer: "In the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song."
NAS Lexicon: Please turn your attention to number 2. d.: 1. to pluck off, pull out 2. to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang a. to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate b. to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc. c. to sing to the music of the harp d. in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song
Why did you leave off "in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song" in your last post? It is CLEARLY stated in the NAS lexicon!!! If you are going to post something from a lexicon, at least post ALL of what is said about a word!!! You did NOT post that meaning because it does NOT agree with your FALSE DOCTRINE that one can use instrumental music in worship to God.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 23, 2003.
God has told us the kind of music He approves which EXCLUDES all other types and the music He approves of in the NT is SINGING.We must not only worship with the proper spirit, but also as the truth directs (Jn. 4:24). We must have divine authority for ALL that we do in word or deed (Col.3:17). Instrumental music in worship has NO divine authority, therefore it is a sin to use them in our worship to God.
k.v. I asked you to provide NT authority for instrumental music and I am still waiting on you to provide it! There were many things that were performed in OT worship, animal sacrifices, the burning of incense, etc. that are NOT AUTHORIZED under the NT and this includes the use of instruments.
Instrumental music is not found in any of the teachings of Christ, or His apostles. It is a precept added by the Pope; therefore, it is vain worship.
"Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." (Matt. 15:13). Since instrumental music in Christian worship is of the Pope's planting; God will root it up.
Peter and the apostles were given authority to bind on earth (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). They did not bind instrumental music by command, example, or inference. Peter enjoined brethren not to lord it over the church (1 Pet. 5:3). To lord it over God's heritage would be legislating where God has not legislated. Since God has given no indication that He wants instrumental music in the worship, those who bring it in are binding where neither Christ nor the apostles bound.
We are to hear Christ (Matt. 17:5), and any soul that does otherwise will be utterly destroyed (cf. Acts 3:22). When we turn to the OT or to the pope we are NOT hearing Christ.
If we return to the Old Law, we are severed from Christ, and fallen from grace (Gal. 5:6). To practice circumcision, polygamy, tithing, Sabbath-keeping, instrumental music, or animal sacrifice, means apostasy from Christ.
Christians are "dead to the law" (Rom. 7:4), and "discharged from the law" (v. 6), for Christ abolished the law (Eph. 2:15). No Christian, therefore, will return to it, and find justification for instrumental music.
The church has been espoused to Christ (2 Cor. 11:2). Any time it accepts Moses, David, or the pope it is guilty of spiritual adultery.
Faith comes by hearing God's Word (Acts 15:7; Rom. 10:17). Instrumental music is not by faith, and "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23).
Our "sacrifice of praise to God" is to be "the fruit of lips which make confession to His name" (Heb. 13:15). Instrumental music is not the fruit of the lips. Neither is it anything more than a soulless sound that can make no confession of Christ's name.
Our singing is to be a form of teaching and admonition (Col. 3-16). Instrumental music can neither teach nor admonish. In so far as these functions are concerned, it is little more than filling the air with a sound.
James says, "Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise" (5: 13b). No provision is made for playing an instrument.
John says, "Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God (2 John 9). Paul says of himself and Barnabas "that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written (2 Cor. 4:6). Instrumental music can not be found in the teaching of Christ. Therefore, to practice it is going beyond the things that are written.
Solomon warned Israel, "Add thou not unto his words lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Prov. 30:6). John warns Christians in a similar vein in the final words of the Bible: "I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18-19). God says "sing", when we add "and play", we place ourselves under the condemnation of Almighty God.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 23, 2003.
Musical instruments are NOT forbidden in church.
-- __ (__@__.__), July 25, 2003.
Check out [these] website[s] concerning instrumental music in worship. Here are the links to the web sitesInstrumental Music in Worship Part 1
Instrumental Music in Worship Part 2
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 25, 2003.
Where do you get the "authority" to use hymnals, pitchpipes, pews, etc. ?
-- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), July 25, 2003.
k.v.Pitch pipes do not ADD to the Word of God, they are merely an AID to help us sing. It is impossible to sing without pitch; therefore, pitch is a necessary part of the command to sing.
Song Books do not ADD to the Word of God. They are used as merely an AID to help us sing.
The same thing can easily be demonstrated in the matter of: 1. Church buildings, 2. Pews, 3. Microphones, 4. ETC?ETC?ETC?
Nothing is done with them that is NOT within the scope of God's will concerning the worship service. They do NOT set up actions in worship separate and apart from that which God has ordained!!! In other words they do NOT ADD nor do they CHANGE the Word of God. Instrumental music on the other hand, is NOT an aid to help us sing, it is an ADDITION to the word of God.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 25, 2003.
Banning instrumental music is based on TRADITION, and NOT the BIBLE.
-- __ (__@__.__), July 26, 2003.
Yes it is from tradition, the bible NEVER makes a command that says "thou must sing or be damned" or "use thy instrument and go to hell"
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 27, 2003.
If Musical Instruments are so sinful, why will a Trumpet be blown at the Resurrection Day? Will you rise and rebuke the BLOWER of the TRUMPET and refuse to fellowship HIM because he uses AN EVIL INSTRUMENT ON THAT SACRED OCCASION?-- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), July 27, 2003.
Where does the Bible authorize for "aids to worship"? If a pitchpipe can be an "aid to worship" for singing in the "church of christ," then why can't a piano be an "aid to worship" for Baptists who may need more help in singing? -- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), July 27, 2003.
The use of the Instrument in Worship was an invention of Men and NOT God
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 27, 2003.
Why wouldn't God want a believer using his God given talent to worship him?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 27, 2003.
Yes it is from tradition, the bible NEVER makes a command that says "thou must sing or be damned" or "use thy instrument and go to hell"David, the use of the instrument in worship to God was an ADDITION to worship by men. Go back and re-read your history books concerning this very subject. It was the Catholic Church which first introduced them in worship and initially it was rejected and did not become commonplace for another 100 years.
If Musical Instruments are so sinful, why will a Trumpet be blown at the Resurrection Day? Will you rise and rebuke the BLOWER of the TRUMPET and refuse to fellowship HIM because he uses AN EVIL INSTRUMENT ON THAT SACRED OCCASION?
k.v. No I will not REBUKE nor will I refuse to fellowship the angel just because he blew a trumpet. I never said using instruments was EVIL, I have stated and will continue to state that God DID NOT tell us they were authorized in worship to Him!!! When God wanted instruments used in worship, He plainly states this to be the case. God has commanded us to SING and the NT worship and NOT SING and PLAY the INSTRUMENT.
Where does the Bible authorize for "aids to worship"? If a pitchpipe can be an "aid to worship" for singing in the "church of christ," then why can't a piano be an "aid to worship" for Baptists who may need more help in singing?
k.v. Do you worship God in a church building? If so, then where is the authorization for you to use a church building in worship to God since it is NOT stated anywhere in the NT???
There is quite a difference between Aids and Additions.
Christ wants us to sing. He gives the commandment to sing. He specified the type of music. What would constitute an aid and an addition?
If we sing with a song book which has notes, the specified music would be heard by God and nothing else. If another type of music were added, it would not be that which the Lord commanded.
The instrument is not an aid. It is an addition! Therefore, it is not acceptable as an aid. It was never an aid. In the Old Testament, it was considered worship by David (Ps 150).
The same thing concerning aids and additions can easily be demonstrated in the matter of church buildings, baptisteries, ETC. Nothing is done with them that is not within the scope of God's will concerning the worship service. They do NOT set up actions in worship separate and apart from that which God has ordained, such as is involved in the use of instrumental music.
God has commanded Christians to meet (Heb 10:25). He has not specified where to meet. They can meet under a tree, by a riverside, in a large building, in a private dwelling, in the daytime, at night, etc. No matter where they meet, when they meet to worship God according to the activities that He has designated (singing, praying, etc.), they are doing no more nor less than God's will. They have not added anything; the building just aids them as a convenient place to meet. They have added nothing to the Lord's command to meet.
When Christ commanded the church to baptize, He implied everything that was necessary to carry out the command. He did not say "Go to the water," but in executing the Lord's command, we find the apostles going to the water. In using a baptistery, Christians do not baptize and do something else at the same time. If one baptizes a penitent believer in a baptistery, a river, a lake, or a pond, he is doing no more nor less than is required in the command to baptize.
God commanded the church to baptize, meet, and sing; but, nowhere did He command the church to play. When one baptizes in a baptistery, he is not baptizing and doing something else at the same time. When one sings with a song book, he is not singing and doing something else at the same time. But when one sings and plays the piano or other instrument, he is singing and playing at the same time.
Christ affirmed that the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms are written (Luke 24:44). Therefore, it is obviously permissible to have a written psalm book. He has also commanded us to sing hymns and spiritual songs. So it is obviously permissible for us to have books containing hymns and spiritual songs.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 27, 2003.
Merriam-Webster Main Entry: psalm
Pronunciation: 'säm, 'sälm, 'som, 'solm, New England also 's[a']m
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English psealm, from Late Latin
psalmus, from Greek psalmos, literally, twanging of a harp, from psallein to pluck, play a stringed instrument Date: before 12th century
: a sacred song or poem used in worship; especially : one of the biblical hymns collected in the Book of Psalms
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 27, 2003.
"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:19).Clearly, this verse shows that it is a preference.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 27, 2003.
David,An English Dictionary does NOT give the correct meaning of the word PSALLO, nor does it give the correct meaning of the word PSALMOS.
One does not have to be a Greek expert, nor does one have to have a Greek lexicon to know the meaning of "psallo." This word is only used five times in the New Testament in four passages.
* Rom. 15:9, "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing (psallo) unto thy name."
* 1 Cor. 14:15, "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing (psallo) with the spirit, and I will sing (psallo) with the understanding also."
* Eph. 5:19, "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody (psallo) in your heart to the Lord."
* James 5:13, "Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing (psallo) psalms."
With one exception, this word is translated "sing." The exception is Ephesians 5:19, and in this passage the instrument is named -- "your heart." There are three kinds of music: instrumental, a capella (vocal), and mixed (vocal and instrumental). God is specific in the music He desires in worship -- singing. In every passage in the New Testament where music is mentioned in connection with New Testament worship, it is singing. Since God has specified what He wants, then we must not add to nor take away.
Though one does not have to be a Greek scholar, there are a few observations that ought to be made about Baptist Davis' question/statement. First, Liddell and Scott is a Classical Greek Lexicon. The New Testament was written in koine Greek. Second, the standard of koine Greek Lexicons is Walter Bauer's translation of William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich. Arndt and Gingrich defines psalmos as a "song of praise" or "psalm, in accordance with Old Testament usage." (Notice this is a noun and not a verb indicating to play...) psallo is defined in the same reference as to "sing, sing praise." Third, if psallo means to "to play on the harp or other stringed instrument," then according to Ephesians 5:19, all would have to play an instrument and not just a select group or a single individual.
One of the purposes of singing is edification. For this reason, Paul states, "...I will sing with the understanding also" (1 Cor. 14:15) and "...teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" (Col. 3:16). Though mechanical instruments of music may set tone and/or mood, they do not edify nor teach. With instrumental music, one can express excitement, anger, and tranquility, but with it, one cannot teach anyone about Jesus, salvation, or heaven. Listen to the exhortation of Hebrews 13:15, "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."
From a historical standpoint, mechanical instruments of music are a "Johnny come lately." It was introduced into the Roman church over six hundred years after the establishment of the church in AD 30. Within Protestant denominationalism, it is less than two hundred years old. John Calvin, in his commentary on the twenty-third psalm said, "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of candles, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The papist therefore have foolishly borrowed this as well as many other things from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to Him. The voice of man assuredly excels all inanimate musical instruments." In Clark's Commentary, Vol. 4, p.686, John Wesley is recorded to have said, "I have no objection to instruments of music in our chapels provided they are neither seen nor heard." Finally, Charles H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher who preached to ten thousand people every Sunday in Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, said in reference to 1 Corinthians 14:15, "I would just as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery."
Concerning the trumpet on the day of resurrection, the trumpet is not used to worship God, it is used to call an assembly of all mankind to stand before the great judgment seat of God. As to David, he lived under the Mosaic law which was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14). Since David was faithful to God under the covenant in which he lived, then we can be sure if David lived today, he would be faithful to God under the New Testament under which we live.
Copied from Vol. 11 No. 8 [All except the first sentence]: Seek the Old Paths
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 28, 2003.
I don't see anywhere in scripture that says we MUST sing. If it did say that, then anyone who did not sing would be damned.
-- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), July 28, 2003.
k.v.We are authorized to SING. (See Ephesians 5:19).
We are Authorized to Sing
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 28, 2003.
k.v.Please check out this web site:
The Music we offer in worship to God
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 28, 2003.
Your conslusions are strange to me. Now, if one is only allowed to sing, or "authorized" to sing as you've put it, then what exactly are the words that one sings? Are they out of a man-made hymnal with traditional English and American hymns or are we talking about Psalms?Your answers to these questions will be very interesting, I'm sure.
rod.. ...
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 28, 2003.
rod,Colossians 3:16 states, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
God tells us to SING, He doesn't tell us to PLAY (with any instrument). This verse tells us that when we SING, we are to TEACH and ADMONISH one another in either PSALMS (from the book of Psalms), HYMNS (which can be from an American hymnal since it is NOT specific) and SPIRITUAL SONGS (which also can be from an American Hymnal since this is also NOT specific). Using an American hymnal or songbook does NOT change the command to SING nor does it ADD to the word of God like those who use instrumental music in worship.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 29, 2003.
Kevin, you lost the argument at the quote from Revelations.Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 29, 2003.
k.v. and Gail,You are both gravely mistaken if what is done in heaven can be done on earth in worship to God. If this is the case, then you ought to be able to PROVE IT through the word of God!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 29, 2003.
Obviously, Kevin, we will worship God perfectly in heaven. However, we see in the book of Revelations something that we here on earth CAN do, i.e., praise God with our instruments, both vocal and material.Again, Kevin, you have lost the argument!
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 29, 2003.
Gail,The book of Revelation does NOT tell us how we are to worship God here on earth. We are admonished to SING in the NT and nowhere is there authority to PLAY an INSTRUMENT in our worship to God.
Check out this website:
The Case Against Instrumental Music in Worship
Please check out this website on Authority:
Divine Authority vs. Human Wisdom
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 29, 2003.
Then why are people born with talent in the fine arts, including music?Where does this talent come from? God or Satan?
If God has given me this talent, should I use it to glorify man or God?
If I should glorify God, should I glorify God in all things that I do?
Remember that the Great Reform proposed this concept of glorifying God in all that we do. All that we do. This means that if we become garbage men then we do it to the best of our ability because it pleases God. If we become brain surgeons then we do it to glorify God. If we become musicians, we do this to glorify God. If we do this to glorify ourselves, it is of no value, but to man.
rod.. ..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 29, 2003.
Church is not the only place where we glorify and worship God.We could become like the monks and isolate our faith to the private cells of a monastary. But, our church exists in all that we do, say, and experience with others who we meet.
The Church is not confined to four walls. The Church is us and them and all of us.
rod..
.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 29, 2003.
rod,Go back and re-read this link, especially number III. Using our Talents for God.
Instrumental Music in Worship Part 2
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 29, 2003.
Hi Kevin.The above link that you have provided is extremely interesting.
I'm still reading it and making an attempt to get its full meaning.
I keep getting images of the Amish and the way they live and practice their faith. The similarities are evident.I have this to think about in relation to this entire thread:
How does a congregation build a physical building of a church in order to meet and attract followers unless they put their skills and talents to work for that purpose?
rod..
.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 29, 2003.
i was not able to read a lot of the comments but i agree with Rod, my question is, does it forbid or say "not" to use instruments in the bible?
-- (me@whereever.com), July 30, 2003.
me@whereever.com,First, one must understand that only the Law of Moses was abolished at the cross, not the entire Old Testament. We get the 'authorization' from the book of Psalms. If one insists that the Old Test has no authority, other verses (read the thread) talk about musical instruments in the New Testament.
-- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), July 30, 2003.
rod, me, k.v. Please read the link below concerning the question, does it forbid or say "not" to use instruments in the bible?
How does a congregation build a physical building of a church in order to meet and attract followers unless they put their skills and talents to work for that purpose?
Who says that they have to use their SKILLS and TALENTS to build the church building? Most of the church buildings I have seen built have contractors who come and build it for them so this is not a valid argument.
First, one must understand that only the Law of Moses was abolished at the cross, not the entire Old Testament. We get the 'authorization' from the book of Psalms. If one insists that the Old Test has no authority, other verses (read the thread) talk about musical instruments in the New Testament.
k.v.
Gentiles were NEVER under the law of Moses nor were they under the Old Testament. Please check out these two links:
Do the Psalms Authorize Instrumental Music in Worship
The Law of Moses: Some Metaphors Considered
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
Kevin, why do you think God made man with free will? (or do you deny that too?) He did not want robots worshiping him, so he gave man free will. It's just non-sense to say that God only want singing. He clearly gave us a preference. Also, they are just aids to singing.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 30, 2003.
And YES, you can sing without a pitch pipe. If instruments are additions, you better get rid of your additions because that pitch pipe will send you to hell. Give me scipture that authorizes us to use a pitch pipe!
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 30, 2003.
Hi Kevin."Most of the church buildings I have seen built have contractors who come and build it for them so this is not a valid argument. "
Well, then by using your very same logic, Kevin, it is like also saying that the church can hire musicians to play during the service because now it is the hired help who is playing and not the actual congregation.
Or, worded differently, pay someone to do the "sinning" for us.
Or, finding someone to impersonate another in my behalf so that I can say it wasn't me who did the impersonation.
Or, using someone else's skills and talents instead of one's own, because only their skills and talents can be exploited for God, not one's own.
Or, it is ok to lead others to sin on one's own behalf, but not recognize one's sinning by leading others to sin.
Very slippery logic I must say.
rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Let's see, where have I heard of that before......Ah! The Garden of Eden when the serpant tempts Eve, yes?
Well, if it ok to hire others to do what is "not authorized", then you must have agreed to go against Scriptures in order to "authorize" those contractors to build your church, yes?
So, using your logic, it then must be ok to have musical instruments in the church service, yes?
I don't mean to be a pain; it's this logic thing that always trips me up.
rod..
..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
He still has not showed me scriptures that authorized us to use pants, drive cars to church, use paper money, nice shoes, watches, speak english, etc..
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 30, 2003.
The Old Testament gives major support to the New Testament and Jesus made references to the O.T. much like the history books that we read today in order to guide us to our future.Using that logic again, if we cannot use Genesis as being acceptable anymore because it is part of the Old Testament, then of what value does Adam and Eve, the Serpent and the Tree of Knowledgs, and God's original will have in our lives today? Nothing?
But, if we do accept Genesis, do we also accept the other books or pick and choose the books that we like?
Sure, the argument that Jesus nullified the old laws would apply, but I don't believe that is what Jesus said or did. He improved the law, but not necessarily "nullify" it. One must re-read His words in order to get the full meaning.
rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
David, rod,Please review the website below, it will answer your questions concerning our worship to God.
Divine Authority vs. Human Wisdom and Man-made Laws in Religion
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
Kevin will you please give me your views, not another man's views, about the questions and points I've made?Do you see the logic that is being pointed out?
If you are worried about "man-made" laws, you might want to reconsider the Apostle Paul and the changes that he made. Paul admits to making suggestions, which he felt were ok with God. This sounds man-made to me, yet we accept them as truth.
Will you please make those observations and make a "Kevin" opinion?
Isn't this what Catholics are criticized of, taking the Pope's view without self analysis?
rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
If one's church does not wish to have musical instruments and prefer vocal music instead, beautiful, wonderful, and bless you! There are even some who ban music altogether. Fine! To each his own fashion of worship. But, to say that the Word of God does not authorize it is a bit too much to swallow. That is where I have a problem. I cannot subscribe to the idea that God would deny the use of our skills and talent to Glorify Him and attract others to the Gospel. I imagine that we could bring new believers to the Gospel at gun point because there is no mention of guns in the Bible;therefore, no restrictions are found there.rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
rod, David,Please take a look at the following websites:
Is Any Part of the Old Testament Binding Today? Part 1
Is Any Part of the Old Testament Binding Today? Part 2
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
There are a handful of commandments, sacraments, ordinances, pre-requisites, or whatever terminology we wish to use. Those are binding of our salvation. I don't think that music is part of that "binding". A mute man cannot sing, a deaf man cannot hear, and an untuned voice cannot lose Salvation either. The flower needs light, atmosphere, and time to grow; God provides those things and the flower lives. God also gives them their form and color. The same is given to us, but if we refuse to partake we die. But, when we partake, we not only survive we also flourish with the gifts God has given us. Let us not waste what God has given us.rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Kevin, I'm still reading your above links. Interesting information. I did notice that some of the passages are condensed and slightly taken out of context with the true meaning in the Bible. One example it the "graven images" issue.The problem, back then, was the situation of the many different religions and worship to "false gods". Those graven images were actually being worshipped by many. If we are to reject the O.T., then are we saying that "graven images" are now o.k.?
I think that "graven images" are equated with "false gods" and should be avoided then, now, and in the future. This does not mean that we cannot have tiny crosses slung around our necks as we see today or nativity scenes displayed at home or in public.
That's just one example; I could go on, but I think the point here will apply there, too.
rod.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
rod,You wrote, Well, then by using your very same logic, Kevin, it is like also saying that the church can hire musicians to play during the service because now it is the hired help who is playing and not the actual congregation."
No rod that is NOT true because there is NO requirement for members of the church to BUILD their own church (since you suggested they were sinning if they allowed a construction company to build it for them). The analogy you make is NOT correct because there is a difference between WORSHIP to God and having someone build a church building.
You wrote, "Or, worded differently, pay someone to do the "sinning" for us."
Please tell me how someone is guilty of "sinning" if they have someone build a church building for them?
You wrote, "Or, finding someone to impersonate another in my behalf so that I can say it wasn't me who did the impersonation."
You are just being silly now as this has absolutely NOTHING to do with HOW we WORSHIP God! I never suggested that anyone do anything FOR US in worship, nor did I even infer such to be the case.
You wrote, "Or, using someone else's skills and talents instead of one's own, because only their skills and talents can be exploited for God, not one's own."
Once again, this is mere speculation on your part. Just because someone has a talent (i.e. musically inclined) does NOT mean that they can use that talent in WORSHIP to God.
You wrote, "Or, it is ok to lead others to sin on one's own behalf, but not recognize one's sinning by leading others to sin. Very slippery logic I must say."
Your original premise was wrong "that someone sins by having another build their church building", so your conclusion is FALSE.
You wrote, "Let's see, where have I heard of that before...... Ah! The Garden of Eden when the serpant tempts Eve, yes? Well, if it ok to hire others to do what is "not authorized", then you must have agreed to go against Scriptures in order to "authorize" those contractors to build your church, yes?"
Please show me rod where it is "NOT AUTHORIZED" to have a contractor come in and build you a building in which to ASSEMBLE in order to WORSHIP God?
You wrote, "So, using your logic, it then must be ok to have musical instruments in the church service, yes?"
No rod, that is NOT the case. Satan used one word to CHANGE the word of God in order to tempt Eve to sin and that one word was the word NOT. Satan told Eve in Genesis 3:4, "You will not surely die." Satan CHANGED the word of God for God said in Genesis 2:17, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." God authorized us to SING and NO MENTION is made of giving us AUTHORITY to PLAY.
You wrote, "The Old Testament gives major support to the New Testament and Jesus made references to the O.T. much like the history books that we read today in order to guide us to our future. Using that logic again, if we cannot use Genesis as being acceptable anymore because it is part of the Old Testament, then of what value does Adam and Eve, the Serpent and the Tree of Knowledgs, and God's original will have in our lives today? Nothing? But, if we do accept Genesis, do we also accept the other books or pick and choose the books that we like?"
Please read the two links I gave you about "Is any Part of the Old Testament Still Binding Today" The apostle Paul had this to say about the OT scripture for in 1 Corinthians 10:11 he wrote, "Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come."
They were given to us as an EXAMPLE so that we would NOT make the same MISTAKES. Remember, the OT was written for and to the Jews and the GENTILES were NOT and are still NOT under any OT law.
You wrote, "Sure, the argument that Jesus nullified the old laws would apply, but I don't believe that is what Jesus said or did. He improved the law, but not necessarily "nullify" it. One must re-read His words in order to get the full meaning."
The OT law has been taken AWAY and NAILED to the CROSS. (See Colossians 2:14).
You wrote, "If you are worried about "man-made" laws, you might want to reconsider the Apostle Paul and the changes that he made. Paul admits to making suggestions, which he felt were ok with God. This sounds man-made to me, yet we accept them as truth."
Yes, Paul made suggestions with the APPROVAL of God. If God did NOT approve of them, then they would NOT have been WRITTEN. We accept what is WRITTEN as TRUTH because God said in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
You wrote, "If one's church does not wish to have musical instruments and prefer vocal music instead, beautiful, wonderful, and bless you!"
God SPECIFICALLY stated that we are to SING and NOWHERE are we AUTHORIZED to use MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS in our worship to God!
You wrote, "There are even some who ban music altogether. Fine! To each his own fashion of worship."
No rod, God was very SPECIFIC when He stated that SINGING was authorized. Obviously you do NOT respect the SILENCE of the scriptures.
You wrote, "But, to say that the Word of God does not authorize it is a bit too much to swallow. That is where I have a problem. I cannot subscribe to the idea that God would deny the use of our skills and talent to Glorify Him and attract others to the Gospel."
The problem is that it is God who tells us what is AUTHORIZED in worship to Him and NOT rod, NOR any other man. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24). God did NOT authorize Nadab and Abihu to offer strange fire before Him in WORSHIP, so God KILLED THEM.
"Nadab and Abihu had died before the LORD when they offered profane fire before the LORD in the Wilderness of Sinai;" (Numbers 3:4).
Likewise, the use of INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC in WORSHIP to God is NOT AUTHORIZED.
You wrote, "I imagine that we could bring new believers to the Gospel at gun point because there is no mention of guns in the Bible;therefore, no restrictions are found there."
No rod, once again you are NOT respecting God's silence. We could NOT bring "new believers to the Gospel at gun point" because that is NOT how one is to OBEY the Gospel. Jesus said in John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him-- the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day."
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
This does not mean that we cannot have tiny crosses slung around our necks as we see today or nativity scenes displayed at home or in public.rod, having these things around our necks and displayed at home or in public are OK. As long as we are not WORSHIPPING them as the Israelites in the OT were admonished not to do, then there is NOTHING wrong with them.
We are COMMANDED to ONLY WORSHIP GOD. Jesus said in Matthew 4:10, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
The graven images that we see today in the Christian faith are all directly related to the Christian traditions, theology, and Gospel. These images have nothing to do with "false gods" or "false religions", except of course for one main problem:The idea that Christ looks like the Michelangelo paintings is a pretty good stretch of the imagination. The Last Supper by Da Vinci is not only inaccurate, but darn right heretical. I'm sure that we can find many more distortions to the truth from different time periods and different artists, but the theology and Gospel are still alive even if the myth conveys it.
rod..<
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Hi Kevin.There is one solid piece of evidence that seems to bind you and me:
You and I still hold the Old Testament as a reliable source, as you have quoted and referenced it in your discussions with me. Therefore, you have learned to conform to its teachings. You have proven that you still follow its teachings and have devised a set of standards or "commandments" from it. You have actually compared and contrasted the two parts of the Bible to formulate or justify the concept of appropriate worship in the church.
May I point something out that you have overlooked?
When we build a church it is for the worship of God. In that action alone is evidence of our worship to God. Those builders are doing the worshipping for your congregation because it is the congregation's will that the church be built. The builders may or may not have the same motivations, but the congregation has "petitioned" them as such.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
rod,You wrote, "You and I still hold the Old Testament as a reliable source, as you have quoted and referenced it in your discussions with me."
Yes, it is a reliable source for our LEARNING ONLY and NOT as our rule of faith and how we are to WORSHIP God today.
You wrote, "Therefore, you have learned to conform to its teachings."
Just becaue I quote from the OT does NOT mean that I have "learned to conform to its teachings". If this is the case, please show me how and what I have written thus far in this forum that would even give you a hint that this is indeed the case? I have repeatedly stressed that we are NOT under OT law, how hard is this to understand?
You wrote, "You have proven that you still follow its teachings and have devised a set of standards or "commandments" from it."
Really now rod? If this is the case, then what "commandments" or standards have I devised?
You wrote, "You have actually compared and contrasted the two parts of the Bible to formulate or justify the concept of appropriate worship in the church."
Comparing and contrasting the OT and the NT does NOT mean that I have made up my own "commandments" or standards, this is just your OPINION and I have done NO such thing.
You wrote, "When we build a church it is for the worship of God. In that action alone is evidence of our worship to God. Those builders are doing the worshipping for your congregation because it is the congregation's will that the church be built. The builders may or may not have the same motivations, but the congregation has "petitioned" them as such."
No rod, when someone builds a church they are NOT worshipping God. Where in the world did you even get this silly idea? A church building is NOTHING more than a place to assemble so that we may OBEY God's command to ASSEMBLE and NOTHING MORE. Building a church is NOT worship to God, NOR is hiring someone to build it worship to God. Rod, you are mistaken, the church is the PEOPLE, and NOT some building.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
'As a result, the word "a cappella" came into being and was the term for "music in the church style."'Actually, I do believe that "a cappella" refers to "at the top or at the [altar]" and this has come to mean "without instruments". Here is a case of traditon or customs or just plain conveniance for lack of instruments or talent.
rod..
.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Yes, We are the "church". At the same, we can see manifestations of our faith in our actions and our constructions. Manifestations of faith. The church building is one of those manifestations. If we did not worship God, we would not do the things that we do like building a building for us to meet, glorify, and worship God. Other manifestations are love, peace, joy, and the list goes on. We worship God through many things. Many things. Your Martin Luther, Knox, and Calvin (to name a few) preached the same things and indoctrinated the world with the same interpretations. Your own Protestant Reformers are whom I speak of. The very doctines that have shaped your doctrine. If "doctrine" is a poor word choice, then call it what you wish. You are doing the same thing that your Reformers have done.rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
I think it would be good to spend some time reading The Book of Nehemiah in the Old Testament to see how the church still conforms to Nehemiah's in a number of ways. I haven't done a complete comparison with the Old Testament, so I really can't make a fine critical assesment.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Here is a case of traditon or customs or just plain conveniance for lack of instruments or talent.Please notice that this is rod's OPINION and NOTHING MORE.
Yes, We are the "church". At the same, we can see manifestations of our faith in our actions and our constructions. Manifestations of faith. The church building is one of those manifestations.
Having someone build a church building is NOT a manifestation of our faith as you falsely claim. Please tell me how someone can TRANSFER their faith? If we hire someone else to build our church building that is NOT a sin. If this is the case, then you ought to be able to show HOW this is indeed the case if what you state is true. I don’t think you really understand the word SIN. Please give me your definition of SIN.
If we did not worship God, we would not do the things that we do like building a building for us to meet, glorify, and worship God. Other manifestations are love, peace, joy, and the list goes on. We worship God through many things. Many things.
There is NO commandment to build a church building to worship God. Christians can meet in homes or other places as they so desire and they do NOT sin in so doing.
Your own Protestant Reformers are whom I speak of. The very doctines that have shaped your doctrine.
What doctrines are these rod? Please explain?
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
Sins are those things that distance us away from God's grace.Sins are actions that we commit against God's will.
Constructing idols to false gods are manifestations of the sin we commit in going against God.
Constructing a building for the gathering of His church is a manifestion of our faith in accepting God's will to assemble and worship Him.
We construct altars in His name, do we not?
Our homes, do they have altars in His name? (mine does)
We could do without the building, yes. But why are they built today and in the Old Testament? Why?
Are we suppose to worship God with everything that we have? Everything?
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Ephesians 5:19 has two parts: Singing + Making Melody. The "making melody" is translated from the Greek word "psallo." It means to "pluck or twang." The PHRASE THAT FOLLOWS "in the HEART" tells where this action takes place. It is IN THE HEART and NOT on a harp or on some instrumental music.This can also mean to have all things of worship begin in the heart, as to mean with great love and sincerety. So, all that we do must be it this manner, as we pickup an instrument and play for the worship to God.
"It is specifically the "fruit of lips" that is the sacrifice of praise asked for (Hebrews 13:15) and not the sounds from man-made devices. "
"Embouchure" is the technique of the lips in order to produce sound on a musical instrument. The "fruit of lips" can also apply to the buzzing technique for the trumpet or the blowing into flutes and such.
"Should we take harps literally and put them in our worship service? I have yet to see a harp in any denominational worship service. "
The harp has produced the creation of all the stringed instruments. All of the stringed instruments have the same basic concept of using strings to produce sound. The later developments of technique are evolutions stemmed from the harp.
"God HAS SPECIFIED the kind of music He wants!!!"
Yes. He wants music from the heart. He wants us to be sincere. We are not to make music to glorify ourselves, but to glorify God.
Singing
Just like the use of "men" or "man" to include women and teens, "singing" can also mean any expression of music including the following:
composition
conducting
playing
whistling
dancing
"It is a specific command, therefore it excludes all other kinds of music. "
There is a style of vocal music known as "sprechstimme". This style involves the spoken lyric in a musical technique. There is also the "chant", which most Protestants would most likely reject. Yet, these are considered vocal-singing styles in music. So, the Bible does not specify any technique or style of singing or expression of musical worship. The Bible does tell us to make an expression of worship that may go beyond spoken words and to make those expressions sincere and [full of love]
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Actually, KevinSatan told the truth; Eve did not die by eating the fruit.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 30, 2003.
Hey, David, you beat me to that conclusion.Here are those Scriptures in reference to the music issue:
Hebrews 13:15
"By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is , the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."
"Sacrifice of praise" would mean to put all personal gain aside and offer it to God through praise. How?
By the fruit of our lips, anything that we say, sing, or produce from our lips. PlayEphesians 5:19-21
"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Loard; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
"Making melody in your heart" would mean to put the music in your heart so that you do these things in a sincere and loving way.
King James Version
rod.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
rod, sin is the transgression of the law (Rom. 6:23), and NOT "those things that distance us away from God's grace. " NOR are they "actions that we commit against God's will." People do NOT sin by building a church building if they have someone else other than the members of their congregation build it. Please do tell me rod what law people are transgressing if they hire someone else to build their church building?Acceptable worship must be offered in Faith (Heb. 11:4), must agree with the Truth (John 4:24), and be given by the Commandment of God (John 14:15). Anything other than that CANNOT be considered acceptable worship. Remember, Jesus said: ?If you love me, keep my commandments.? (John 14:15)
rod, do you fear God?
The Bible says: "God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints," (Ps 89:7).
Does this mean that we can do anything that we please when we worship God? Or is everything we do acceptable worship to God? I think not! Fear has to be taught (Deut. 4:10; 14:23; Ps 34:11). It is not casually absorbed. If one fears God, he has been taught to fear.
Solomon sought the answer to the question of the purpose of life. After finding the emptiness of wealth, pleasure and wisdom, he concluded, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all" (Ecc. 12:13). The same writer said that we should be in the fear of God all day long (Prov. 23:17). God placed man on earth to fear him and keep his commandments. That means everything else is secondary to that. Our purpose and function in life is not to work and make a living. We work and make a living so we can live and serve God with fear.
The Lord says that he will look on the one who "trembles at My word" (Isa. 66:2). David said, "My flesh trembles for fear of You, And I am afraid of Your judgments" (Ps 119:120). We ought to tremble in our boots at the thought of doing the things that displease God.
Paul said that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb. 10:31).
The reason is "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29).
One who can knowingly do wrong and not be bothered at all obviously doesn't fear God.
We must DO what God says. While we do not live under the OT law (Gal. 3:24-25; 2 Cor. 3), books like Deuteronomy, which emphasize obedience to the law, serve to demonstrate the relationship of the fear of God to obedience. Notice that connection in the following passages:
"that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you..." (Deut. 6:2).
"Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him" (Deut. 8:6).
"You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and shall keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him" (Deut. 13:4).
"And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law and these statues..." (Deut. 17:19).
"If you fear the Lord and serve Him and obey His voice and do not rebel against the commandment of the Lord...." (1 Sam. 12:14).
The one fears God, will obey to the utmost as Abraham did in his attempt to sacrifice Isaac (Gen. 22:12). When God saw he was willing to go that far in obedience, he said, "Now I know that you fear God". This is obedience with no excuses, question or doubt.
Moses told God's people at Sinai that God''s presence on the mount (the display of thundering, lightening, sounding of the trumpet and the smoke on the mountain) was to test them "that his fear may be before you, so that you may not sin" (Exo. 20:20). Thus, if one fears God, he will hate sin and cease the practice of it.
The Psalmist said, "Because they do not change, therefore they do not fear God" (Ps 55:19). When people persist in sin and never change (whether an alien in the world or a supposed "Christian") the problem is they do not fear God.
If one honors God, he will have the utmost respect for his word.
Remember that Nehemiah described those among whom he worked (as he did himself) as those "who desire to fear...." Because of that fear they were attentive to Ezra as he read and explained the law (Neh. 8:2). They stood when Ezra opened the book in their presence (v. 5).
If we fear God we too will hold the word in high esteem. We should view the Bible as the inspired word that came from the mouth of God (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 9:13). We should never forget that this is the book by which we will be judged in the last day (John 12:48). The way we refer to the word and the way we respond to it will reflect whether we respect it or not.
Instrumental music is a tradition of men and falls into the same category as the Jews' washing traditions (Mark 7:1-13).
The Bible does NOT in any way, shape, matter, or form authorize any kind of music for worship other than vocal music. The Bible ONLY authorizes singing. It does NOT authorize instruments of any sort. Now, if we are content with what is WRITTEN in the book of God then we will NEVER use instruments in our worship.
David,
Eve is NOT here with us today is she? Eve DID die a physical death and the devil DID lie to her for God said he (the serpent who was the devil) did in 2 Cor 11:3, "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
Kevin, you need to go back and re-read my points. It seems that you have taken my examples out of context and twisted them to make me appear to make nonsensicle accusations. I am trying to use the logic that you have provided in order to figure out your assertion that instrumental music is a sin, as you have stated above. I have been using your logic in contrast to my own and the ones the Scriptures seem to provide. I don't believe that it is a sin for hired help to build a church. But, if it is wrong for the congregation and they hire someone else to build it, then yes it is sinful for the congregation.I can see that making connections are a bit difficult to make when I provide my examples. I'm not sure that I can convince you of any interpretations unless you are willing to open your interpretive horizons to a higher level. I believe those horizons are found in Scriptures, if we look really hard and study them to their fullest understanding. I can't say that I am right or wrong, but I am willing to make those connections that seem correct. Ah! This is the major problem with Protestantism--multiple interpretations.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Kevin, she did not die in that day, he was telling the truth. I guess you can say he didn't say the whole truth. But it was the act of disobeying God that gave them death, not the eating of the fruit. That is exactly what satan told Eve, that she would not die of eating the fruit.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 30, 2003.
Well, Eve and Adam didn't die immediately after eating the forbidden fruit, but they were cast out of Paradise and reduced in suffering a shortened life span filled with burden. But, how can we say that Adam and Eve are not in Heaven experiencing eternal life? Who on earth has the power to make such conclusions?rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Oops, it seems that David and I posted at the same time. Well, our replies are complimentary with commentary.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
Hebrews 13:15 "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is , the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." "Sacrifice of praise" would mean to put all personal gain aside and offer it to God through praise. How? By the fruit of our lips, anything that we say, sing, or produce from our lips. Play"How rod gets "Play" out of "the fruit of our lips" is just beyond my ability to comprehend? We give thanks to His name by SINGING, and NOT playing. There is NO mention of "PLAYING" instruments of music in this verse. This is merely what rod WANTS this verse to say but it says NO such thing.
Ephesians 5:19-21 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Loard; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. "Making melody in your heart" would mean to put the music in your heart so that you do these things in a sincere and loving way.
Once again, there is NO mention of any type of Instrumental Music in this verse.
Kevin, you need to go back and re-read my points. It seems that you have taken my examples out of context and twisted them to make me appear to make nonsensicle accusations.
It is because you DO NOT make any sense when you try to make a point!!! You try (as you say) to use my logic, but rest assured, it is NOT my logic, but EXACTLY what the word of God says on the topic of Instrumental Music in worship.
I am trying to use the logic that you have provided in order to figure out your assertion that instrumental music is a sin, as you have stated above.
Quit trying to use YOUR LOGIC, because it is NOT working. Instrumental Music IS A SIN if it is used in worship to God. There is NO command, example, nor is there any necessary inference for the justification to use instruments in our worship to God. God told us to SING, and it is obvious you are NOT content with what He has PLAINLY stated in His word. Remember, we will be judged by what is WRITTEN. (John 12:48, Revelation 20:12).
I have been using your logic in contrast to my own and the ones the Scriptures seem to provide.
Stop using your logic, it is that easy!!! God said in Proverbs 30:6, "Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Stay with what God has said, and NOT what you THINK He said.
I don't believe that it is a sin for hired help to build a church. But, if it is wrong for the congregation and they hire someone else to build it, then yes it is sinful for the congregation.
Once again rod, it is NOT a sin to hire someone to build a church building. If this is a sin, then you ought to be able to PROVE from the word of God where this is the case.
I can see that making connections are a bit difficult to make when I provide my examples. I'm not sure that I can convince you of any interpretations unless you are willing to open your interpretive horizons to a higher level. You mean like the Gnostics who believed that their learning was ABOVE the word of God? Why do you have a hard time understanding what God has PLAINLY revealed in His word? I will tell you why, because you have been conditioned by either your CATECHISM or your CREED to believe what doctrines are correct and NOT through your own personal study. No one would come to the conclusion that instrumental music is allowed in worship to God if their only knowledge of any doctrine were His word the Bible!!! (See John 8:31, 1 Corinthians 4:6).
I believe those horizons are found in Scriptures, if we look really hard and study them to their fullest understanding. I can't say that I am right or wrong, but I am willing to make those connections that seem correct. Ah! This is the major problem with Protestantism--multiple interpretations.
I am NOT a PROTESTANT for this title is ONLY for those who have PROTESTED the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was and has NEVER BEEN the true church of Christ for this Church has MANY FALSE DOCTRINES that are NOT found in the word of God. I take it from your post that you are a Catholic. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Kevin, she did not die in that day, he was telling the truth. I guess you can say he didn't say the whole truth. But it was the act of disobeying God that gave them death, not the eating of the fruit. That is exactly what satan told Eve, that she would not die of eating the fruit.
It matters NOT that Eve did not die that day, she still died. So your claim that the devil told the truth is NOT true for Eve most assuredly did die. God PLAINLY stated that if they ate the fruit, they would DIE. The devil stated that they would NOT die and since both Adam and Eve are no longer with us, the devil did tell a lie. They did DISOBEY God when they ATE THE FRUIT for God PLAINLY told them that in Genesis 2:17, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Well, Eve and Adam didn't die immediately after eating the forbidden fruit, but they were cast out of Paradise and reduced in suffering a shortened life span filled with burden. But, how can we say that Adam and Eve are not in Heaven experiencing eternal life? Who on earth has the power to make such conclusions?
Yes, but they DID DIE. Who said anything about Adam and Eve not experience eternal life? I certainly did NOT infer this, I merely stated that they died for this is EXACTLY what the word of God states. (See Romans 5:12-17, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 30, 2003.
Excuse me . . . but where does it say IN SCRIPTURE that it is A SIN to play A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT to worship God.WHERE? WHERE? WHERE? WHERE? If it is in scripture, Kevin, you ought to be able to PROVE it. So far you cannot PROVE IT!
The only LOGIC you seem to be able to use is ILLOGIC! And Lord knows if ILLOGIC where a spiritual gift, you seem to have been WELL ENDOWED!!! Go for it!!
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 30, 2003.
Gail please give me your most honest answer to my next question.Do I come across as being a Catholic?
Because, I can't even answer my own question in that regard.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 30, 2003.
KevinI didn't call you a Protestant. I made a generalization about Protestantism. You have made it clear that you are not a member of any denomination. You answer to Jesus Christ.
Here is what I wrote:
"I believe those horizons are found in Scriptures, if we look really hard and study them to their fullest understanding. I can't say that I am right or wrong, but I am willing to make those connections that seem correct. Ah! This is the major problem with Protestantism--multiple interpretations. "
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
The word "Protestant" has nothing to do with "protesting"---a proudly protestant explanation
-- __ (__@__.__), July 31, 2003.
Unfortunately, the site just above mentioned is full of mispresentations and outright lies about the Catholic faith. Since converting from Protestantism to Catholocism and having studied Catholocism for two years, intensely, these lies are quite easily recognized. But this is not the thread to debate those issues.But since the subject of "Protestantism" has come up, here is what Daniel Webster says concerning the definition of the word "Protestant": "ANY Christian not belonging to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Eastern Church; in the 17th century the term was restricted to Lutherans and Anglicans."
The Reformation was certainly a giant REVOLT against the Catholic Church; and I'm sure everyone here knows that. It seems nonsensical and ILLOGICAL to me that Kevin cannot even submit to the authority of Webster and admit he is a Protestant! Therefore, it would seem impossible to honestly debate someone who cannot submit to ANY authority, even one so benign as Webster.
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 31, 2003.
Gail,Please read this website below, it will answer your questions about Instrumental Music in worship.
Profane Fire which He had Not Commanded
Comments such as: "The only LOGIC you seem to be able to use is ILLOGIC! And Lord knows if ILLOGIC where a spiritual gift, you seem to have been WELL ENDOWED!!! Go for it!!" are really NOT necessary are they? Why do you and it seems all Catholics in general put people down when they do NOT agree with your doctrine??? Especially if it does NOT agree with the word of God???
Please go back and re-read 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, which states, "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."
P.S. I had nothing to do with the link above about Protestants.
rod,
Ok, so you didn't call me a Protestant. Please forgive me for my error.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 31, 2003.
We are all entitled to make errors, but to keep making the same error time and time again will ultimately stagnate or destroy us. Our ears, eyes, and minds must remain open.Kevin, of course you are forgiven.
I don't like having guitars during mass or service. The main reason is because the people playing them do not have a complete understanding or control of the tone qualities the instruments produces. What happens is, the guitar begins to sound tinny through the church sound systems. The improvement wouldn't be to remove the guitar; it would be best to customize the sound system for the acoustical needs of the church. Most pastors/priest do not have the knowledge or control of buying a nice sound system, musicians ususally do.
But, the sound systems in most buildings are not going to improve, so that tinny guitar really should go or we'll just have to put up with them. Most parishioners/congregation(ers) won't notice a thing, unless things really sound bad.
BTW, mechanical sound systems fall into the category of "musical instruments". How many sound systems do we hear in church? I'd say that 100% of churches use them.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
rod,You wrote, "BTW, mechanical sound systems fall into the category of "musical instruments". How many sound systems do we hear in church? I'd say that 100% of churches use them."
No rod, they do NOT fall into the same category for all they do is transmit sound. If this allows everyone in the congregation to HEAR what is being said, this in NO WAY changes the commandment of God. You are grasping for straws...
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 31, 2003.
Kevin, you said it yourself,"...it transmits sound". Actually, it enhances the sound. This is done by adjusting the frequencies of the sound source, by modulating its attack-decay-sustain-release, and by amplification of the sound source. When a person speaks or sings into this mechanical instrument the person is using a musical instrument. When a person blows into a trumpet, the trumpet is also controlling the attack-decay-sustain-release of the sound source, but the person also has some control over the ADSR from his point of contact--the lips.Speak with any true vocalist/singer and ask them how they spend time making adjustments on the sound system in order to make their voices sound better as they sing through the microphone. At this point, the sound system has left the role of "P.A.-public announcement" system and entired the role of "musical instrument". This is the same as saying the glass bottle is no longer a beverage container, but it is now a glass flute you can blow into. Or, a glass bowl that contains water is just a container, until you rub your moistened finger around its rim and produce a musical tone.
I didn't want to tell you this, because it will be one more thing that you may hold against me. I'm a music teacher and professional musician. I've also recorded for the secular and sacred audiences and have been involved in music ministries both in the Catholic Church and the Pentecostal Church at different times in my life. Not to mention, I had affiliations in the Methodist church as a musician.
Will you at least listen to the facts I've presented to you?
Let's say that no one sings into that sound system. Let's say that only the pastor uses it for his sermons. That sound system is modifying the sounds that preacher is introducing to the sound system. The sound system is still working as an instrument. Scriptures , in your view, should deny the use of such instruments because it says nothing about modifying the sound of our voices through a sound system. I bet the pastor/priest will enjoy the effect of tuning his voice to a loud, strong, and bass-y tone. Very impressive and Charles Heston sounding, just like the [Hollywood Moses.]
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
Sorry, that should have ended with:Just like the Hollywood Moses.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
Kevin, do you believe it is sin to allow music in church? If so, then it stands to reason those engaging are going to hell?
-- c (sezme40@ameritech.net), July 31, 2003.
rod,Using a sound system does NOT change your voice, it merely projects it. This useless quibble that one CANNOT use a sound system does NOT get you around the fact that Instrumental Music is NOT authorized in worship. There is NOTHING wrong with using a sound system to project ones voice for those who hear it are ONLY hearing the speakers voice when it is used and NOTHING more.
When a person blows into a trumpet, his VOICE does NOT come out of it now does it? So your quibble, "When a person blows into a trumpet, the trumpet is also controlling the attack-decay-sustain-release of the sound source, but the person also has some control over the ADSR from his point of contact--the lips." has NO merit at all!!!
Kevin, you said it yourself,"...it transmits sound". Actually, it enhances the sound. This is done by adjusting the frequencies of the sound source, by modulating its attack-decay-sustain-release, and by amplification of the sound source. When a person speaks or sings into this mechanical instrument the person is using a musical instrument. You wrote, "Speak with any true vocalist/singer and ask them how they spend time making adjustments on the sound system in order to make their voices sound better as they sing through the microphone."
rod, it is still ONLY their VOICE which comes out of the sound system so this is another quibble that has no merit regardless of how many times they have to adjust the sound system to make their voices sound better.
rod, whether you are a music teacher or not has NO bearing on the subject of whether or not we are authorized to use Instrumental Music in our worship to God. I don't hold "anything against you", I am just trying to correct your error that says that one can use an Instrument in worship to God.
Will you at least listen to what God has said is AUTHORIZED instead of what you WANT Him to say is AUTHORIZED in worship to Him?
You wrote, "Let's say that no one sings into that sound system. Let's say that only the pastor uses it for his sermons. That sound system is modifying the sounds that preacher is introducing to the sound system. The sound system is still working as an instrument."
rod, the sound system is NOT modifying his voice, it is merely PROJECTING it so that everyone can HEAR what he has to say. Once again, this is NOT an instrument as you falsely claim, but merely an aid that we have liberty to use in order to ensure that EVERYONE in the congregation can be EDIFIED at the same time.
You wrote, "Scriptures , in your view, should deny the use of such instruments because it says nothing about modifying the sound of our voices through a sound system."
No rod, you are trying to strain out a gnat and swallow the camels with this quibble. There is NO mention of a church building in the word of God, but one is NOT sinning if the congregation builds one. One is NOT sinning if they use a Song Book in worship to God, for there is NO commandment to have one, it merely allows one to do what God has said, and that is to SING. A sound system does NOT cause one to sin, for this does NOT in any way shape or form CHANGE ones voice for the sound that comes out can still be heard as ones voice and NOTHING MORE.
c wrote, "Kevin, do you believe it is sin to allow music in church? If so, then it stands to reason those engaging are going to hell?"
Yes, it is a SIN to allow anything other than VOCAL singing in church for it is going BEYOND what God has authorized. The answer to your second question is also YES.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 31, 2003.
Kevin, I don't believe that anyone is committing a sin by singing, playing, or changing their voices in any way while using a sound system. But, by your own interpretations of the Scriptures, you are sinning if you use a sound system in your church or even if you use a paper cup over your mouth to "project" your voice.My experiences in church ministries and music does not qualify me to change the Gospel. I am not doing that. By the same token, your failure to meet me halfway in our discussion does not give you the qualifications to twist my meanings to judge me as being in error.
I'm glad that we are not in a gunfight, cuz you are quick on the trigger without checking if you are loaded.
You are one strange thinker. I have provided you with explantions and examples, but you fail to accept simple facts and realities. These examples are not meant to destroy your faith, but they are meant to give you and me and whoever stumbles across this thread some educated insight. Those inisights are universal in Scriptures. Every man, stupid or genius, will eventually understand the universal truth that God has given us in His Word and His Bible.
"Fruit of the lips" has a universal meaning. This meaning shall live forever and apply to all cultures in all of time as man accepts His Word and lives by His Word. If you take Scriptures literally, then the fruit that comes from one's lips would be a disgusting drool. But, for those who have wisdom will understand its meaning today and tomorrow as those meanings reveal themselves as we grow in God's Word.
Stop[! and start] closing your thoughts to simple man-made interpretations of limited understanding. There is more to God than meets the eye, ear, and min[d.]
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
rod,You wrote, "Kevin, I don't believe that anyone is committing a sin by singing, playing, or changing their voices in any way while using a sound system. But, by your own interpretations of the Scriptures, you are sinning if you use a sound system in your church or even if you use a paper cup over your mouth to "project" your voice. "
No rod, by YOUR false view states that I am sinning if I use a sound system in my church. I am doing NO such thing for you did NOT answer my question, you merely IGNORED what I said and continue to state that I am "sinning" if I use a sound system in worship to God. I explained to you WHY this is NOT the case, and you have REJECTED sound words. It is obvious that you do NOT understand what God has PLAINLY stated He authorizes in worship and NOTHING that I say is going to change your mind. This is unfortunate because we will be judged by what is WRITTEN. (John 12:48, Revelation 20:12).
You wrote, "My experiences in church ministries and music does not qualify me to change the Gospel. I am not doing that. By the same token, your failure to meet me halfway in our discussion does not give you the qualifications to twist my meanings to judge me as being in error. "
There is NO halfway point to be met rod!!! When God speaks (and He has on this subject), we can either ACCEPT what He says, or REJECT what He says. It is obvious to me that you REJECT what God has said for you claim that one CAN use instruments of music in worship and God has NOT said any such thing therefore you are ADDING to the word of God. I have NOT twisted your meanings, if so, please state HOW I am guilty of this thing in which you accuse me. I am judging you in ERROR, because you are in FACT in error on this subject and NO amount of human reasoning will change this inescapable conclusion.
You wrote, "I'm glad that we are not in a gunfight, cuz you are quick on the trigger without checking if you are loaded."
Cute, but why is it when I pose questions to you and show how you do err in what you state that you simply drop the subject and move on to something else? I am not the one who keeps on bringing up EXCUSE after EXCUSE for why something ought to be acceptable to God especially since His word is SILENT on this issue. Why do you keep trying to bring up EXCUSES that using something that God has NOT ordained is acceptable in His sight? Has God NOT plainly spoken on what He requires of us in our worship to Him? Who gave you or anyone else the AUTHORITY to legislate for God? Or to SPEAK where He has NOT SPOKEN? Go back and re-read Proverbs 30:6!!!
You wrote, "You are one strange thinker. I have provided you with explantions and examples, but you fail to accept simple facts and realities. These examples are not meant to destroy your faith, but they are meant to give you and me and whoever stumbles across this thread some educated insight. Those inisights are universal in Scriptures. Every man, stupid or genius, will eventually understand the universal truth that God has given us in His Word and His Bible."
rod, I have answered your questions, and they are NOTHING more than mere ASSERTIONS on your part that do NOT agree with the word of God. God has AUTHORIZED ONLY VOCAL SINGING to Him and there is NOT one shred of evidence anywhere in the NT where there is anything other than VOCAL SINGING AUTHORIZED!!!
You wrote, ""Fruit of the lips" has a universal meaning. This meaning shall live forever and apply to all cultures in all of time as man accepts His Word and lives by His Word. If you take Scriptures literally, then the fruit that comes from one's lips would be a disgusting drool. But, for those who have wisdom will understand its meaning today and tomorrow as those meanings reveal themselves as we grow in God's Word."
No rod, "Fruit of the lips" does NOT have a "universal meaning" as you falsely charge. Hebrews 13:15 states, "Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name." This MOST CERTAINLY SAYS that we are to offer the sacrifice of PRAISE to God, and we do that THROUGH WORDS…please also NOTICE THE PHRASE giving thanks to His name. An Instrument is INCAPABLE of PRAISING God and it is also INCAPABLE of GIVING PRAISE TO HIS NAME. If you are going to explain something from the word of God, please do NOT twist His word when you give an explanation as you have done in this case.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 31, 2003.
Kevinby your logic, a mute man will surely committ a sin because the fruit of his lips are silent and connot fulfill this "commandment"-as you've stated-of the Scriptures.
Now, you don't have to believe me when I re-state my interpretation.
The meaning of Hebrews tells us to praise God from the heart: sincere and love. How this is done is in prayer, praise, song, music, poetry,chant, and whatever else we see as our God given talents and skills can perform, including blowing into a musical instrument or plucking the strings, or thumping the keyboards, or pounding the drum, and yes singing through a microphone. This practice of praise and worship has occurred since the dawn of man, like it or not. You are not going to change the history and heart felt need that man has to express his love, joy, and worship for God. Even until we hear Gabriel's trumpet in the final days.
Now, Kevin go out and learn how to play a musical instrument and join our band. Praise the Lord!
rod..
..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
rod,You wrote, "by your logic, a mute man will surely committ a sin because the fruit of his lips are silent and connot fulfill this "commandment"-as you've stated-of the Scriptures."
Now rod, why are you PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH??? I did NOT say, NOR did I infer that those who are "mute" commit sin because they cannot fulfill this commandment now have I??? Once again, when you don't have an answer, you have to go run and hide somewhere else to try to justify your FALSE position that instruments are allowed in worship to God. This does NOT surprise me in the least as false teachers have a habit of doing this very thing.
You can continue to believe that the "The meaning of Hebrews tells us to praise God from the heart: sincere and love. How this is done is in prayer, praise, song, music, poetry,chant, and whatever else we see as our God given talents and skills can perform, including blowing into a musical instrument or plucking the strings, or thumping the keyboards, or pounding the drum, and yes singing through a microphone."
However, this is NOT what God has said. I noticed you did NOT comment on what I said in my last post did you? No, all you did is restate your position which will NOT change no matter what I say. You can continue (and will continue) to be blinded by the God of this age, but this does NOT (and will not) change what God has stated SPECIFICALLY in His word concerning this subject. You can continue to worship God with what He has NOT AUTHORIZED. I will continue to worship God IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 31, 2003.
Kevin, you infer many things without even realizing it. I make interpretations and I realize it. I also experience it. I can see how reading Scriptures can seem to mean one thing and then on continual readings they can mean other things. Here is an example:Mark 16:18
"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Now, Kevin don't go and do anything like drinking poison.
I have seen documentaries of so-called "believers" taking the verse (above) literally and practicing it in their church services. The research that I have encountered made the claim that this particular section in Mark was found in sources that would not necessarily prove to be genuine. I can't make this claim, cuz I'm just a little guy.
My point is this:
Do we follow what Mark 16:18 tells, literally or do we take its intended message? Kevin do you see any intended message from this verse or do you take it literally?
If you do either one, then why do you insist in not reading the intended messages or their dry literal meanings of other verses?
Before you start in on me about changing the subject, the reason I present this point is because it seems that this is how you read the Gospel. Let me point out that we do have the gift of discernment. In our spiritual growth we can eventually see what God means through the Bible.
You actually believe that only your interpretations is pure and true. All other interpretations that conflict with yours are false in your estimation. I, on the other hand, believe that no man can surmise the truth to its ultimate conclusion. Therefore, I listen and "gnaw" on the interpretations and try to make sense of them. I no when I'm wrong and I know when others are wrong, but I never really know if I or he are right. I do know that the God's Word and the Bible are true. It is our job to make them clear and live by t
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
...and live by the truth!
Psalms 150
II Samuel 6:5
Kevin please do not reject the Word of God--The Bible--The Whole Bible--The Holy Bible.
"And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fit wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals."
God
...
...
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
Hey, thanks_______! I pulled these conclusions from one of the websites provided by Kevin. Have a look and read what I have to say.1. Instrumental Music is not sanctioned by the New Testament;
2. Instrumental Music was not used in the Early Church;
3. Instrumental Music originated in the Catholic Church; and
4. Instrumental Music is a source of strife and disunity.Instrumental Music is not sanctioned by the New Testament;
This interpretations does not make any sense. I have made the attempt to explain why in this thread.
Instrumental Music was not used in the Early Church;
Instrumental music existed before the Early Church, as the Old Testament show evidence of this. Why the New Testament Church does not incorporate instrumental music cannot be solely concluded based on Scriptures. There must have been other circumstances to prohibit instrumental music. The Last Supper celebration has also taken a change based on the confused practices of the Church during this time.
Instrumental Music originated in the Catholic Church;
Not true. Instrumental music existed before and was adopted by the Church and also made advances in instrumental technologies and musical theory. Today's modern music theory can be traced back to the monks. Johan Sebastian Bach, although not Catholic, can be credited for much of the organization and development of music theory.
Today, the highest technological advancement known to man is the Space Shuttle; for Christianity it was the pipe organ and this was done in order to glorify and praise and worship God.Instrumental Music is a source of strife and disunity.
If this is true, then please explain today's popular Christian Music industry and the polarizing effect it has in converting the masses to the Christian Faith. Christian Music has played a powerful ecumenical role in our world. Christian Music includes vocal and instrumental performance for the praise, glorification, and worship of God. The simple church knows that the congregation can pull together when they are allowed to express their worship beyond the spoken word; it binds us in the Body of Christ.
rod..
. . . . . . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
Sorry, I didn't mean to make Bach sound like he was a monk. I compressed my thoughts too quickly there. Bach was a very important composer in the sacred music scene during the Baroque period and very much a Protestant. He dedicated all of his musical talent to God. He is also responsible for the development of pitch temperment--the tuning of our modern day piano pitches. The man was not only a musical genius, he was also a very religious and God worshipping man.rod.. .. ..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
I did it again. I didn't mean that God worships Bach. I meant that Bach was worshipping God. I need some sleep.rod.. .. .. .. .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2003.
Instrumental Music is a source of strife and disunity.It caused a split in the Church of Christ.
-- __ (__@__.__), August 01, 2003.
Ah! That I understand. I do believe that the main problem was doctrine. Dress code and evidence of the Holy Spirit in a believer was also part of that "split".rod..
..
..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 01, 2003.
Ah! That I understand. I do believe that the main problem was doctrine. Dress code and evidence of the Holy Spirit in a believer were also part of that "split".The congregation was required to conformed to a strict dress code and were not allowed to participate in worldly things such as dancing, secular music, and other specified vices.
rod..
..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 01, 2003.
rod,You quoted, "Mark 16:18 "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Then you said, "Now, Kevin don't go and do anything like drinking poison."
Were the Christians in the first century able to do this very thing? (See Luke 10:19, Acts 28:3-6, Acts 3:6-8, Acts 5:15-16 etc…). Yes they were able to do these things!!!
Then you said, "I have seen documentaries of so-called "believers" taking the verse (above) literally and practicing it in their church services. The research that I have encountered made the claim that this particular section in Mark was found in sources that would not necessarily prove to be genuine. I can't make this claim, cuz I'm just a little guy."
We CANNOT now take this verse literally, because back then the Holy Spirit through the gifts that He offered dwelt in them and allowed the Christians to do as Mark 16:20 states, "And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen."
This is the reason the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT were given, to CONFIRM THE WORD. SPIRITUAL GIFTS have ceased, because NO ONE can take up serpents without getting KILLED, NO ONE can drink any deadly thing without getting KILLED, and NO ONE can hands on the sick and make them WELL.
You wrote, "Before you start in on me about changing the subject, the reason I present this point is because it seems that this is how you read the Gospel. Let me point out that we do have the gift of discernment. In our spiritual growth we can eventually see what God means through the Bible."
Once again rod, instead of answering my rebuttal to your argument, you do DRIFT OFF and change the subject without even bothering to answer what I wrote to you. Can you not see you are guilty of this very thing??? I charge you with changing the subject, because that is EXACTLY what you do, and I wouldn’t say anything to you except for the fact that you do it EVERY TIME without fail!!!
You wrote, "You actually believe that only your interpretations is pure and true. All other interpretations that conflict with yours are false in your estimation. I, on the other hand, believe that no man can surmise the truth to its ultimate conclusion."
If "no man can surmise the truth to its ultimate conclusion" as you state, then NO ONE can KNOW THE TRUTH and be saved!!! My interpretation is TRUE because it does NOT conflict with what the word of God says and that is how I know I am standing in the truth.
Your FALSE CLAIM that no one can know the truth just shows how IGNORANT you are of His word. Jesus said in John 8:31, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed." You DO NOT abide in His word when you claim that one can use Instrumental Music in worship, so you are NOT His disciple. Jesus said that we could KNOW THE TRUTH, and this is in direct OPPOSITION to what you have stated. Jesus said in John 8:32, "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Since you BOLDLY state that "no man can surmise the truth to its ultimate conclusion." You do call Jesus a liar with that very statement.
You wrote, "Therefore, I listen and "gnaw" on the interpretations and try to make sense of them. I no when I'm wrong and I know when others are wrong, but I never really know if I or he are right. I do know that the God's Word and the Bible are true. It is our job to make them clear and live by truth! Psalms 150"
You make absolutely NO SENSE with this statement? Please tell me rod, how you can know when you are wrong if "no man can surmise the truth to its ultimate conclusion."??? Do you see the IGNORANCE of this LOGIC? You claim that you "know that the God's Word and the Bible are true" however, you do NOT speak the truth for you do ADD to His words when you say that one can use Instrumental Music in worship where God has said NO such thing. Psalm 150 was written for the Jews and the Israelites, and NOT for the GENTILES.
You wrote, "II Samuel 6:5 Kevin please do not reject the Word of God-- The Bible--The Whole Bible--The Holy Bible." "And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fit wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals."
Once again, the Old Testament was written for the Jews and the Israelites and NOT for the GENTILES. All of the worship in the OT was SYMBOLIC and was ONLY in force UNTIL the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:9-10 states, "It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation."
A website I provided said, "Instrumental Music is not sanctioned by the New Testament;"
To which you replied, "This interpretations does not make any sense. I have made the attempt to explain why in this thread."
My reply: How can they make any sense to you when you CANNOT surmise the truth to its ultimate conclusion?
A website I provided said, "Instrumental Music was not used in the Early Church;"
To which you replied, "Instrumental music existed before the Early Church, as the Old Testament show evidence of this. Why the New Testament Church does not incorporate instrumental music cannot be solely concluded based on Scriptures. There must have been other circumstances to prohibit instrumental music. The Last Supper celebration has also taken a change based on the confused practices of the Church during this time."
My reply: You did NOT answer the question. If "Instrumental Music was not used in the Early Church;" (and it was NOT), then why did you NOT prove where this is the case. The OT does NOT show us how we are to worship in the NT!!! Yes, we CAN surmise and come to a CONCLUSION that based on Scriptural evidence there is NO AUTHORITY nor did the early church use any type of Instrumental Music in worship to God. If they did, then I am sure that you would be able to PROVE through the word of God where this is the case. This you CANNOT do for there are NO EXAMPLES, NO COMMANDS, nor are there any NECESSARY INFERENCES where this is the case. Instrumental Music is prohibited because God told us that SINGING was the only thing He AUTHORIZED!!!
A website I provided said, "Instrumental Music originated in the Catholic Church; "
To which you replied, "Not true. Instrumental music existed before and was adopted by the Church and also made advances in instrumental technologies and musical theory. Today's modern music theory can be traced back to the monks. Johan Sebastian Bach, although not Catholic, can be credited for much of the organization and development of music theory."
My reply: Instead of proving how the website is wrong, rod merely ASSERTS that it is NOT TRUE without even bothering to PROVE IT. All he says is "Instrumental music existed before and was adopted by the Church and also made advances in instrumental technologies and musical theory." which does NOTHING to prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt.
You wrote, "Today, the highest technological advancement known to man is the Space Shuttle; for Christianity it was the pipe organ and this was done in order to glorify and praise and worship God.
The pipe organ was an invention of man and this PROVES that it is NOT AUTHORIZED in worship to God!
A website I provided said, "Instrumental Music is a source of strife and disunity."
To which you replied, "If this is true, then please explain today's popular Christian Music industry and the polarizing effect it has in converting the masses to the Christian Faith. Christian Music has played a powerful ecumenical role in our world. Christian Music includes vocal and instrumental performance for the praise, glorification, and worship of God. The simple church knows that the congregation can pull together when they are allowed to express their worship beyond the spoken word; it binds us in the Body of Christ."
My reply: Please notice your statement "the polarizing effect it has in converting the masses to the Christian Faith" Let me let you in on a little secret rod, MUSIC has NOTHING to do with CONVERTING MASSES to the Christian Faith!!! You do err, NOT knowing the truth, for it is the GOSPEL that is God's power to salvation (Romans 1:16) and MUSIC has absolutely NOTHING to do with CONVERSION!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 01, 2003.
"Instrumental Music originated in the Catholic Church"Instrumental music existed in the Old Testament.
-- __ (__@__.__), August 01, 2003.
Catholics were NOT a part of the Old Testament worship!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 01, 2003.
Kevin look at your foot cuz you just shot a hole in it with your last comment about Catholicism not having anything to do with the O.T., yet the O.T. shows evidence of intrumental music.Another point:
Christian music contains WORDS and those words are built upon the GOSPEL. I suggest that you become familiar with Goespel music one of these days so that you can fill your mind, heart, and spirit in the medium known as MUSIC, another one of those gifts given to us by GOD.
Kevin, yes I am ignorant, and compared to many well learned men in the Scriptures, I am also a lower life form of that knowledge. But, I am willing to study and keep an open mind.
Ok, Kevin hang on to your chair and try not to misunderstand the Word of God in this next Scripture. I base my own "works" of faith on these verses, among many others, but this one sums it up for me:
Mark 12:29-30.
"And Jesus answered him, 'The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the lord our God is one lord. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; this is the first commandment.'"
The "heart" means with love that is true. With love that keeps us living.
The "soul" means our essence and spiritual-ness; our existence, our constant prayer to God.
The "mind" means our intellect, wisdom, and their fruits, skills and talents, our constant thirst for understanding God's Word.
The "strength" means our moral diligence/discipline, enduring faith, and physical work, [i.e.] manifestation of our faith in God. Hey, building pipe organs to show our love for God.
So, it isn't only "faith", but our everyday spiritual and human existence and works done here on earth is the commandment we accept here in Mark 12:29-3
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 01, 2003.
Kevin wrote" If "no man can surmise the truth to its ultimate conclusion" as you state, then NO ONE can KNOW THE TRUTH and be saved!!! My interpretation is TRUE because it does NOT conflict with what the word of God says and that is how I know I am standing in the truth. "
Once again, Kevin, your logic does not make any sense. We may never have full understanding of the ultimate conclusion that the truth may hold. Let me remind you that it is not by understanding that we may find Salvation, we find Salvation through FAITH in Christ. How can mortal man have the capacity to understand as God? We can't. But, what all men can have is FAITH.
FAITH. We are told time and time again to have FAITH. There are mysteries in Scriptures that are not revealed to us and, I hope that the day we walk with God, those mysteries will be answered.
rod..
..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 02, 2003.
Kevin-If, by your understanding of Scriputres, it is a sin for you and me to worship God with instrumental music, I would not want you to committ any sins while worshipping God. And, if it would cause you to sin, I would surely not bring my musical instruments into your place of worship. Eventhough, I do not see the Scriptures the same as you, I would not tempt you during your time of worship.
As for me, I doubt that I sin while worshipping God with instrumental music and prayer and song and many other practices.
rod..
..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 02, 2003.
rod,You wrote, "Kevin look at your foot cuz you just shot a hole in it with your last comment about Catholicism not having anything to do with the O.T., yet the O.T. shows evidence of intrumental music."
No rod, once again you do NOT understand.
I did NO such thing and here is why: A sentence in a website read, "Instrumental Music originated in the Catholic Church" to which a comment was made, "Instrumental music existed in the Old Testament." to which I then made the comment, "Catholics were NOT a part of the Old Testament worship!!!" I know that the Old Testament shows evidence of Instrumental Music in it for that was NOT what the first sentence was all about. I made the statement that Catholics were NOT a part of OT worship because they were the ones who first introduced Instrumental Music in NEW TESTAMENT WORSHIP. Nothing was said in the website, nor in my reply about Instrumental Music NOT being in the OT for we both know this is true.
If anyone shot themselves in the foot it was that IGNORANT statement that "Instrumental music existed in the Old Testament."!!!!
You wrote, "Another point: Christian music contains WORDS and those words are built upon the GOSPEL. I suggest that you become familiar with Goespel music one of these days so that you can fill your mind, heart, and spirit in the medium known as MUSIC, another one of those gifts given to us by GOD."
Really rod? Please tell me what is the gospel??? While you are at it, please tell me how someone gets faith?
You wrote, "Kevin, yes I am ignorant, and compared to many well learned men in the Scriptures, I am also a lower life form of that knowledge. But, I am willing to study and keep an open mind."
This is a good thing, but please don't say that you can't surmise the truth to its ultimate conclusion because that is NOT true and I pointed this out to you in my last post.
You wrote, "Ok, Kevin hang on to your chair and try not to misunderstand the Word of God in this next Scripture. I base my own "works" of faith on these verses, among many others, but this one sums it up for me: Mark 12:29-30."
rod, you CLAIM that you love Jesus, but you do NOT speak the truth for if you truly LOVED Jesus, you would NOT state that one can play Instrumental Music in worship to God when His word is SILENT on this issue. Jesus said this about the scribes and Pharisees, but it also applies today to YOU and to those who do NOT RESPECT HIS WORD, "These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" (Matthew 15:8-9).
You wrote, "Once again, Kevin, your logic does not make any sense. We may never have full understanding of the ultimate conclusion that the truth may hold. Let me remind you that it is not by understanding that we may find Salvation, we find Salvation through FAITH in Christ. How can mortal man have the capacity to understand as God? We can't. But, what all men can have is FAITH."
I answered your question in my last post about having an understanding of truth and showed you how you were wrong, and you didn?t bother to refute what I wrote, instead you retreated from the position that one CANNOT understand the truth to one that states "We may never have full understanding of the ultimate conclusion that the truth may hold." Another position that is NOT the truth according to the word of God. If this were the case, then why would we even need a Bible? If "we may never have a full understanding of the ultimate conclusion that the truth may hold", then God told a lie when He said in Genesis 1:31, "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." For we CANNOT understand His word and thus CANNOT be saved. Are you ready for this conclusion???? I think NOT!!!
rod, who said that we had to "understand as God"????? I never said this, nor did I imply such a thing. Talk about logic NOT making any sense????
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 02, 2003.
Once again Kevin, Jesus is God. The reason the New Testament is silent in some areas is Because God has already spoken them in the O.T.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 02, 2003.
Kevin wrote"Gentiles were NEVER under the law of Moses nor were they under the Old Testament."
rod: Perhaps true, but this does not rule out traditions.
"They were given to us as an EXAMPLE so that we would NOT make the same MISTAKES. Remember, the OT was written for and to the Jews and the GENTILES were NOT and are still NOT under any OT law. "
rod: You keep stressing on "law". You keep implying that tradition is law.
"The Bible does NOT in any way, shape, matter, or form authorize any kind of music for worship other than vocal music. The Bible ONLY authorizes singing. It does NOT authorize instruments of any sort. Now, if we are content with what is WRITTEN in the book of God then we will NEVER use instruments in our worship. "
rod: We have already seen how religious festivals, celebrations, and events before Jesus are mentioned in the O.T. We have already discussed Scriptures that suggest and even mention musical instruments by name.
"Psalm 150 was written for the Jews and the Israelites, and NOT for the GENTILES."
rod: Are you saying that God will not accept Psalm 150 to apply to anyone who seeks to follow Him? Must one be Jew and Israelite to follow teachings from the O.T.? No.
"The OT does NOT show us how we are to worship in the NT!!! "
rod: If this is true, then why bother printing it at all? You have already said that it is a learning tool. It even reveals musical instruments. Why mention these instruments of "sin" in a good light and not condemn them instead? Because, it isn't a sin.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 03, 2003.
David wrote, "Once again Kevin, Jesus is God. The reason the New Testament is silent in some areas is Because God has already spoken them in the O.T."No David the reason the NT is silent on some areas is because the OT ENDED at the death of Christ. (See Hebrews 9:15-17). The OT Law was ANNULLED. (See Hebrews 7:18-19). The OT is NOT binding today. (See Galatians 3:19-29, Romans 7:1-4, Colossians 2:14-16, Ephesians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 3:6-16).
I wrote, "Gentiles were NEVER under the law of Moses nor were they under the Old Testament."
To which rod replied: "Perhaps true, but this does not rule out traditions."
My reply: I never said anything about traditions.
I wrote, "They were given to us as an EXAMPLE so that we would NOT make the same MISTAKES. Remember, the OT was written for and to the Jews and the GENTILES were NOT and are still NOT under any OT law."
To which you rod replied: "You keep stressing on "law". You keep implying that tradition is law."
No rod, I am NOT doing any such thing. I have NOT implied that "tradition is law". If I am guilty of doing this, please point out to me how this is the case?
I wrote, "The Bible does NOT in any way, shape, matter, or form authorize any kind of music for worship other than vocal music. The Bible ONLY authorizes singing. It does NOT authorize instruments of any sort. Now, if we are content with what is WRITTEN in the book of God then we will NEVER use instruments in our worship."
To which rod replied: "We have already seen how religious festivals, celebrations, and events before Jesus are mentioned in the O.T. We have already discussed Scriptures that suggest and even mention musical instruments by name."
Once again rod, the OT was given to the JEWS and NOT to the Gentiles. These "religious festivals and celebrations" were NOT traditions, they were COMMANDED to be observed by God!!!
Why do you insist on bringing something forward from the OT to the NT when the Gentiles were NEVER a part of ANY OT worship practices???
I wrote, "Psalm 150 was written for the Jews and the Israelites, and NOT for the GENTILES."
To which rod replied: "Are you saying that God will not accept Psalm 150 to apply to anyone who seeks to follow Him?"
I didn't say this now did I? I said that we are NOT under ANY OT LAW. There is NOTHING wrong with reading any of the PSALMS, the ONLY problem comes in when someone tries to make this binding in our NT worship to God.
You wrote, "Must one be Jew and Israelite to follow teachings from the O.T.? No."
rod, ALL of the instructions and laws given in the OT were given ONLY to the Israelites and to the Jews. The Gentiles did NOT have any law and did NOT even have a chance to be saved until Jesus came and broke down the middle wall that separated us from God. Go back and re-read Ephesians 2:11-22.
I wrote: "The OT does NOT show us how we are to worship in the NT!!!"
to whic rod replied: "If this is true, then why bother printing it at all? You have already said that it is a learning tool. It even reveals musical instruments. Why mention these instruments of "sin" in a good light and not condemn them instead? Because, it isn't a sin."
rod, the OT worship practices were PHYSICAL in nature. Go back and re-read Hebrews chapter 9.
Worship in the NT is SPIRITUAL in nature. Go back and re-read John 4:24. Worship that pleases God MUST be according to the truth, that is based on the word of God (See John 17:17). True worship MUST be based on the teaching of Christ that is found specifically in the NT (See 2 John 9).
Is the use of Musical Instruments in the worship of the church according to Jesus truth? If so, where is the passage?
Jesus instructed His apostles to teach men to observe men ALL THINGS HE COMMANDED THEM. (Matthew 28:20). Is the use of such instruments in worship to God part of what Jesus commanded the apostles? If so, WHERE IS IT WRITTEN???
Does the Lord command us to use Musical Instruments when singing spiritual songs? NO.
Does God give us a direct statement that shows that such Instruments are allowed? NO.
Is there an approved example of such in the NT? NO.
Is there any implication in Jesus doctrine that shows the church has the right to worship God with Musical Instruments? NO.
Thus, the use of Musical Instruments in worship to God is NOT a part of Jesus doctrine. If that is so, then using them in worship of the church did NOT come from Jesus, but from men. Do you remember Jesus question to the Jewish leaders about John the Baptists baptism? "The baptism of John--where was it from? From heaven or from men?" (Matthew 21:25)? If you will substitute in that question the words "the use of Musical Instruments in the worship of the church" for "The baptism of John", then you will have the question that we need to answer. Is it [The use of Musical Instruments in the worship of the church From heaven or from men?] FROM MEN.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.
But, Kevin it is you who has called it a sin to worship with the playing of musical instruments, not God.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.
rod wrote, "But, Kevin it is you who has called it a sin to worship with the playing of musical instruments, not God."God said, "...for whatever is not from faith is sin." (Rom 14:23).
God said, "For we walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Cor 5:7).
God said, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.
Since God said, "...for whatever is not from faith is sin." (Rom 14:23) and, "For we walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Cor 5:7) and "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17), we can LOGICALLY and CORRECTLY state that since Musical Instruments are NOT mentioned in the NT then it is a SIN to use them in our worship to God.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.
Your Bible quotes still do not prove your assertion that instrumental music is a sin. God has not made such a statement. Also, it is the Word of God--Jesus Christ. Are you worshipping God or the Bible? Are you obeying the meaning of the Scriptures or the letter of the Scriptures. Which makes me wonder about your understanding of the following Scripture:John 6:54
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." rod....
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.
rod,God said in John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
God also said in 1 Peter 1:23, "having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever"
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.
John 6:54
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."Kevin answer to this verse. You are evading me, now.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.
rod,I am NOT evading your question as I answered you when I quoted John 6:63.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 05, 2003.
rod I have to agree with Kevin on that. There is no 'real presence' in the 'eucharist'."And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me" (1 Corinthians 11:24,25).
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.
And you damn yourself every time you partake in the bread and wine in an unworhty manner"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27).
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.
Ok guys, lets move the discussion over to Instrumental Music in Worship II and The Eucharist for convenience.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.