Are we saved by FAITH ONLY?

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There are many denominations that advocate that all one needs to do in order to obtain salvation is "call upon the name of the Lord" and "have faith in Christ". Many have been told to say the so-called "sinners prayer" and request the Lord to come into their heart by faith. This constitutes being born again according to many denominations. Is this doctrine true that one is saved by FAITH ONLY?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 21, 2003

Answers

This doctrine of FAITH ONLY is NOT supported by the message of the scripture. Those institutions that preach a FAITH ONLY salvation are in CONFLICT with the message of Christ. Consider well these stern biblical facts: If Faith Only Saves, why should the devils tremble? Are they saved? (See James 2:19). Why does the bible say, "...not by faith only"? (See James 2:24). Why were men told to repent and be baptized? (See Acts 2:38). Why are we to add to our faith? (See 2 Peter 1:5). Why does the bible say, faith alone is dead? (See James 2:17) Why does the bible say, faith void of works is dead? (See James 2:26). Why should we have love? (See 1 Corinthians 13:2).

Most certainly we are NOT saved by faith only. Faith is NOT the Savior, Christ is the Savior. Faith in Christ is a means to an end, salvation which is IN Christ. Man is saved by Repentance, but Repentance is not the Savior; it too is a means to the end, salvation IN Christ. The same can be said of Confession and Baptism, yet these cannot be and are NOT Saviors.

The Savior is a person, a being and Faith, Repentance, Confession and Baptism are acts performed which are necessary to reach salvation, which is IN Christ Jesus. Faith is absolutely necessary.

Jesus said: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God." Jn. 3:5. Entrance into the kingdom of God is contingent ON the new birth. This being true it is necessary to understand how this new birth is brought about.

Remember these words of Jesus: "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father..." Matthew 7:21. You must be born again. By this act you gain entrance into the kingdom, yet Jesus also said you must do the will of the Father to gain entrance to the Kingdom.

Doing the will the Father is equal to being born again which will allow one to enter the Kingdom. Peter says that we are "born again" by the Word of God, 1 Peter 1:23.

When the pure Word of God is preached; believed and obeyed, one will be led to the watery grave of baptism, thus they will be "born again".

Read Acts 8:26-39, for a biblical example of a person being born again.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 21, 2003.


No one got saved from only hearing the gospel but by responding to it by faith. can you not read the bible and get saved? so this idea you have to prove something is flawed. all the rest except for baptism are incorporated in faith.

you have this flawed circular reasoning. repentance is often used as a synonym for believe. one does not repent unless they believe the truth they hear.

as far as Mk.16 it tells us those who believe get baptized. the bible says one is saved by their belief. it is always a believers baptism, those who are in the faith and saved, no one gets baptized to be saved but are saved already.

yes it is faith alone in that it saved one when their heard the message.one cannot be saved without faith.

water is wet salvation is not. Baptism is at times attached to faith (belief) for salvation. But nowhere does it say "to be baptized to be saved" by itself. However you will find faith separate from baptism for salvation. The greater context in scripture always teaches salvation occurs before baptism.

Acts 10 they were baptized in the spirit speaking in tongues before they were saved by their baptism.

The gospel contains nothing about baptism, good works, church membership or attendance, tithing, sacraments or rituals, diet or clothing. No amount of any of these will help save you.

The gospel that paul stated we stand in is 1 cor.15:1-4 and he wrote in eph.2:8-10 how we receive it.

-- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), July 22, 2003.

k.v.

If you are going to use the moderators email address, then your post will appear above others who have posted and they may not see your post. It would be beneficial if you would change your email address to ensure that the posts maintain a logical order or sequence.

You wrote, "No one got saved from only hearing the gospel but by responding to it by faith."

Yes, one MUST respond to and OBEY the gospel THROUGH faith, but NOT by FAITH ONLY.

You wrote, "can you not read the bible and get saved? so this idea you have to prove something is flawed."

Yes, one can read the Bible and know what is required in order to be saved, because the SEED is the word of God. (See Luke 8:11).

You wrote, "all the rest except for baptism are incorporated in faith."

Please provide the Scripture reference that says that "all the rest except for baptism are incorporated in faith"???

You wrote, "you have this flawed circular reasoning. repentance is often used as a synonym for believe. one does not repent unless they believe the truth they hear."

Circular reasoning? No, Repentance is NOT often used as a synonym for belief and I challenge you to prove through the word of God where this is the case??? Repentance means to turn away from our sins, give up our sins, to forsake sin. Repentance is not merely feeling sorry for sins, rather godly sorrow works repentance or brings repentance (2 Cor. 7:10). Repentance is NOT faith, yet repentance IS REQUIRED in order for a person to be saved. God "commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). Repentance is UNTO life (Acts 11:18). Those who do not repent WILL perish (Luke 13:3). Go back and re-read Hebrews chapter 11 in order to understand about FAITH.

You wrote, "as far as Mk.16 it tells us those who believe get baptized. the bible says one is saved by their belief. it is always a believers baptism, those who are in the faith and saved, no one gets baptized to be saved but are saved already."

No, the text actually says, "He who believes AND is baptized WILL BE SAVED". It does NOT say what you want it to say, "He who believes is save AND then can be baptized". Please give me the Scripture reference which states that one is saved first and then baptized after they were saved??? Jesus salvation formula in Mark 16:16 is belief + baptism = salvation. k.v.'s salvation formula is belief = salvation then baptism. (Scripture???).

You wrote, "yes it is faith alone in that it saved one when their heard the message.one cannot be saved without faith."

No, unfortunately it is NOT FAITH ALONE that saves and I CHALLENGE you to provide the passage that so states in the NT. Yes, we are saved by FAITH, but NOT by FAITH ONLY!!!

You wrote, "water is wet salvation is not. Baptism is at times attached to faith (belief) for salvation. But nowhere does it say "to be baptized to be saved" by itself."

Really now??? Let's see if this is true, 1 Peter 3:21 states, "There is also an antitype WHICH NOW SAVES US--BAPTISM (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," [emphasis mine].

This MOST CERTAINLY states that BAPTISM SAVES. Go back and re-read Acts 2:38, there is NO mention of FAITH and REPENTANCE and being BAPTIZED allows one to have the REMISSION of SINS. You wrote, "However you will find faith separate from baptism for salvation. The greater context in scripture always teaches salvation occurs before baptism."

Sorry, k.v. that is INCORRECT. Scripture does NOT teach that salvation occurs prior to baptism, it is just the opposite of what you state. What happened to the Pharisees who did NOT submit to the baptism of John? (See Luke 7:30). Was the baptism of John for the remission of sin? (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3).

It is the arising from the waters of Baptism which brings forth the new creature (Romans 6:3-7). The ONLY WAY we can get into Christ is to be baptized INTO Him (Galatians 3:27). Baptism is FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), and it is the CULMINATION of the process that saves us (1 Peter 3:21). Baptism in water, with the understanding taught by the words of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God and the good CONFESSION [that Jesus is the Son of God - See Acts 8:37] prior to BAPTISM, grants us remission of sins and places us among the saved as newborn babes that have completed the new birth and are part of the family of God.

You wrote, "Acts 10 they were baptized in the spirit speaking in tongues before they were saved by their baptism."

Cornelius and his household were NOT saved prior to be baptized!!!

First, Peter had to tell Cornelius "what you must do". (Acts 10:6).

Second, Peter would tell him "words by which you...shall be saved". (Acts 11:14).

Third, As Peter said, the Spirit fell upon them "as I began to speak". (Acts 11:15).

Fourth, Cornelius was saved AFTER he heard the "words". (i.e. the sermon) such as to Believe - Acts 10:43 AND be Baptized - Acts 10:48.

Until he heard the words and OBEYED what he was told, he WAS NOT SAVED!

The Spirit falling on them DID NOT SAVE them because it came before they heard the "words" and were told what to do.

If the doctrine of FAITH ONLY is correct, Peter should have asked, "Can anyone give any reason why these Gentiles should not be allowed to believe (or accept Jesus as their Saviour)? Instead, Peter was pinpointing the EXACT MOMENT a person becomes a Christian!!! He was saying that God's direct authentication of Gentile eligibility through Holy Spirit baptism was sufficient proof that Gentiles should be allowed to become converts. The purpose was to show the Jewish brethren that, God is NO respecter of persons. (Acts 10:34-35). God was willing to grant them opportunity to Repent and have life. (Acts 11:18). The Gentiles could be saved in the SAME WAY as the Jews...by Faith, Repentance, Confession AND Baptism. (Acts 15:9, 11; Acts 2:38 with Acts 10:48) which Faith comes THROUGH Hearing the Word of God. (Romans 10:17).

You wrote, "The gospel contains nothing about baptism, good works, church membership or attendance, tithing, sacraments or rituals, diet or clothing. No amount of any of these will help save you. The gospel that paul stated we stand in is 1 cor.15:1-4 and he wrote in eph.2:8-10 how we receive it."

Jesus became humble and willingly surrendered His life on the cross. By faith, we Believe, Repent and Confess. Baptism IS the point where we become humble and surrender our lives to Jesus and are crucified with Him.

Jesus Died, was Buried and Resurrected. The gospel.

In baptism, we Die, are Buried and we are Raised to become a new creature. This is where we OBEY the gospel in BAPTISM. We are baptized INTO the death of Christ. Paul implies in Romans 6:1-4 that baptism is where one meets the death of Christ.

Where did Jesus shed his blood? In his death. Baptism IS the point where we contact the blood of Jesus.

Please answer these questions:

1. How did the Romans get INTO Christ? (Romans 6:3). 2. How did the Galatians get INTO Christ? (Galatians 3:27). 3. What role does the blood of Jesus play in salvation? (Romans 5:9). 4. When was Jesus' blood shed? (His life or death). 5. How did God ordain that we reach that blood? (Romans 6:4). 6. How do we die with Christ? (Romans 6:3 & 8; 2 Timothy 2:11). 7. Shall we live with Him if we did not die with Him? (Romans 6:8).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 22, 2003.


Kevin wrote,"Yes, we are saved by FAITH, but NOT by FAITH ONLY"

James was talking about a different kind of faith. -Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 27, 2003.


No Gail, an altar call does not save you. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 27, 2003.


Christ says (Paraphase), "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"

He did not say,"Keep the commandments, and this IS loving God"

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 27, 2003.


I wrote, "Yes, we are saved by FAITH, but NOT by FAITH ONLY"

To which David replied, "James was talking about a different kind of faith. -Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Really now David??? A different kind of faith??? The apostle Paul said in Ephesians 4:5 that there was ONE faith. Please explain how there can be more than one faith???

David wrote, "Christ says (Paraphase), "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" He did not say,"Keep the commandments, and this IS loving God"

Please explain what you mean by this David. Are you saying that someone does NOT have to "keep the commandments" as Jesus PLAINLY stated in the Bible??? In your reply, please give book, chapter and verse where someone does NOT have to keep the commandments and be saved???

How about answering my posts David??? When I post something that REFUTES your doctrine of faith only, you don't bother to respond. Please tell me why this is the case???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.


James 2 1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.


Kevin, frankly your posts are too long and to too filled with to much information for me to handle. Sometimes I don't have an answer, or I go and check your verse in the bible, or I look for an answer, or I get involved in another conversation with someone else and forget about posts I wanted to reply too.

As for James, I agree with what he says.

James 2:14 is talking about those who claim to have faith (a dead faith)
James 2:17 is talking about a real faith being accompanied by action (agrees with Paul in Eph. 2:8-10)
James 2:18 he talks about showing his faith through his deeds, not just talking about it
James 2:19 he shows how this type of faith (James 15-17) isn't much differen't from the devils.

James is talking about 2 different kind of faith. A dead faith (lip service) and an alive faith (obedient)

In verse 21-16, He tells us the examples of Abraham and Rahab who demonstrated their faith by their actions (obedience).

James is not talking about salvation. He is talking about the evidence of salvation. 'Justified' can mean "to show to be righteous" or "to make righteous". James 2:24 can mean 'to show to be righteous' <---fits better in the context.

Roman Catholics often use this verse to prove that we can/we have to do works for our salvation, but this would contradict God's Word (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2, and Romans 4).

Faith, accompanied by action, is demonstrated to be a real faith. So many claim to be Christians, yet they don't walk the walk. This is why so many people say there is "alot of hypocrites" in church. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4 / KJV

How can we claim to be a Christian, yet continue to live in a life of sin; drinking, partying, etc.?? And worse, how can we be a Christian and not follow the commands Jesus gave us?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.


David-"How can we claim to be a Christian, yet continue to live in a life of sin; drinking, partying, etc.?? And worse, how can we be a Christian and not follow the commands Jesus gave us? "

rod--Christians are sinners. I suppose that you mean those vices that take control of a person's will to disobey God. Drinking and partying are not necessarily "sins". Jesus partook in wine and party. People are creatures of habit and addiction and must practice moderation. There are also many things in our lives which would cause us to sin, not only drinking and partying. The diets we keep are just as sinful, if not practiced in moderation. Not wearing the proper dress code as prescribed by your church may be a form of sin when the people are infatuated by meticulous conformity to those man-made dress codes. Such a regulation falls into the category of the "law" over the faith in God.

There is nothing wrong with drinking and partying. There is a sinfulness to drunken-ness and lack of self-control. These leads one to being a slave to a different master; that master not being God. Anything that becomes your master , other than God, is a sin. Of course, somethings may seem innocent and harmless, but one must keep on making reality checks of their situations. One way is to get involved with Christians--Kevin comes to mind--in order to find guidance in the right path. Kevin would set you straight on the path; I'm not so sure the average atheist or luke warm believer could survive the first few weeks of indoctrination. It would be worth it, though. There are people out there sinning up a storm who would need the strong arm of righteous living. Sometimes it takes drastic measures to pull people out of "death". Love can be a tough thing, but when the smoke clears, there is still Love--God

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.



David,

You wrote, "Kevin, frankly your posts are too long and to too filled with to much information for me to handle. Sometimes I don't have an answer, or I go and check your verse in the bible, or I look for an answer, or I get involved in another conversation with someone else and forget about posts I wanted to reply too."

My reply: It is not my intent to have so much information in my replies that you can't handle. My intent is to try to help you to UNLEARN the false doctrines that you have been taught that are NOT in accordance with the word of God.

It's not easy trying to respond to everyone is it? Especially if you have to answer more than one post it does take awhile to respond.

You wrote, "As for James, I agree with what he says."

No, you can't agree with James for you believe that one is saved by "faith only" WITHOUT any other works. If "faith only" is what saves, then NOTHING else is required otherwise one is NOT saved by "faith only".

There is ONLY one kind of faith, not two or more as you have alleged. The ONLY kind of faith is the faith that is ALIVE. James says that "faith WITHOUT works is dead" and that is EXACTLY what he means.

A dead faith will cause one to believe in Jesus, however they will NOT do what He says.

A dead faith will cause one to believe in Jesus, but NOT confess His name (confession is made unto salvation).

A dead faith will cause one to believe in Jesus, but NOT repent of their sins (repentance is COMMANDED by God).

A dead faith will cause one to believe in Jesus, but NOT be baptized FOR the remission of their sins (as COMMANDED in Mark 16:16).

A faith that is ALIVE will cause one to believe in Jesus, repent of their sins, confess their faith in Jesus and be baptized FOR the remission of their sins. This is the ONLY way that one can truly say that their faith is ALIVE.

You wrote, "How can we claim to be a Christian, yet continue to live in a life of sin; drinking, partying, etc.?? And worse, how can we be a Christian and not follow the commands Jesus gave us?"

Amen and Amen to your comments here. One CANNOT drink, party etc. and still be considered a child of God.

rod is WRONG in his post saying that there is nothing wrong with drinking.

God says in 1 Cor. 3:16-17, "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." NKJV

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


Ok, I'll rephrase that. There are 2 different faiths, one false one true. I believe in the faith that is alive, saving faith. A person with dead faith has believed in vain and is a hypocrite.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

rod is WRONG in his post saying that there is nothing wrong with drinking.

Kevin are you going to say that Jesus was wrong in turning the water into wine and allowing His wedding guests to partake in the wine?

By your interpretations, we may as well kick the bucket now cuz this planet is killing our temple. Don't breath, eat, think, or live cuz it is defiling our temple. Don't drink any soda pop either. Forget the coffee, the mercury tainted fish, the big cheeseburger, those high stess jobs, and anything our bodies are exposed to, Kevin.

You would make a great ascetic monk!

rod...

...<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


rod,

You wrote, "Kevin are you going to say that Jesus was wrong in turning the water into wine and allowing His wedding guests to partake in the wine?"

I didn't say that now did I rod??? Now, you are the one who is putting words in my mouth.

Let me ask you a question.

If Jesus were to return right now, could a faithful Christian expect to go to heaven if he had been drinking at that very moment???

God says in Matthew 24:48-51, "But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

rod, Do you want to change your answer that it is ok to drink now???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


If Jesus came down today, He would not find me drunk, but He did say that He would not drink winde until the Apostles were with Him in Heaven. I do not get drunk. Now, Walker, don't go twisting God's Scriptures; I didn't. I distinctly made the difference between drinking and drunken-ness. I suppose that you don't take cough medicine tainted with alcohol? It isn't that we are going to drink to get drunk--a sin. Are you denying that Jesus partook in wine or are you denying that Jesus stayed sober?

rod...

...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.



Now, before people start labeling me "boozer", I drink wine on special celebrations: Thanksgiving meal, Christmas meal. I'm not a habitual drinker because it would go against my beliefs, as I've stated above. I also believe that God makes all foods good. It is up to us to use or abuse those foods (any food).

rod...

...


-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


Shoot! Walker. You did a fine job of shooting your pistol before it left the holster. You already have me pegged as a drunken fool sitting in bars with hopeless sinners toasting to gloom and doom. As a matter of fact, most people consider me "square","prudish", and basically a boring "self-righteous-Bible-thumping-Zealot". Hey, I'll drink to that! I'm not one of those football on the t.v., steaks on the grill, gang on the deck, beer in the hand, kind of guys. My idea of a party is family and a few close friends having dinner and discussing current affairs and the Bible. Those are the kind of friends I hang with. I tend to stay away from people who are weak in their morals and vices. I do not place myself in compromising situations. So, Walker take back your distorted character analysis about me and my Merlot( that' been sitting in the fridge for over 6 months now). Will Jesus check you on bearing false witness, Kevin Walker?

rod...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


rod wrote, "If Jesus came down today, He would not find me drunk, but He did say that He would not drink winde until the Apostles were with Him in Heaven."

No, Jesus said He would not drink of the "fruit of the vine" which is nothing more than grape juice, NOT "wine" as you assert. (Matt. 26:29).

rod wrote, "I do not get drunk."

I never said that you did.

You wrote, "Now, Walker, don't go twisting God's Scriptures; I didn't."

Now we are into using last names are we rod??? Because I corrected you and showed you that you were indeed WRONG in what you stated, now I am twisting God's Scriptures??? If I am "twisting God's Scriptures" then please explain to everyone here HOW I am guilty of this very thing in which you accuse me of doing??? I wrote EXACTLY what you said and SHOWED you how you were NOT speaking the truth according to the word of God. If I am wrong, then PROVE it...!!! Don't throw out an accusation unless you can PROVE IT!!!

I PROVED that you were WRONG. Now how about returning the favor and PROVE me wrong!!! If I am wrong, I will admit that I am wrong. It is obvious that you do NOT want to admit when you are wrong do you rod???

You wrote, "I distinctly made the difference between drinking and drunken-ness."

What does God say in the verse that I quoted???

You didn't answer my question when I asked if a Christian could take one drink just before Jesus returned would he still be saved??? The answer to that question is as God stated in the verse I quoted earlier.

You wrote, "I suppose that you don't take cough medicine tainted with alcohol?"

Once again, you make an attempt to put words into my mouth. I never said that I don't take medicine "tainted with alcohol", there is a BIG difference between taking medicine that will help you feel better and taking a drink which ONLY gets you drunk.

You wrote, "It isn't that we are going to drink to get drunk--a sin."

Does one drink impair someone's brain yes or no??? If one drink is enough to IMPAIR someone, then it is a SIN!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


I know of healthy people who eat food to get fat. Nobody goes and condemns them, Kevin. But, it is the same thing as getting drunk. They have allowed a master to donminate their lives who is not God. The sin is the sin by any other flavor is still the sin. Now, how many times have you lusted over a 2 inch 100% beef steak cooked over a grill served with a buttered baked patato and a tall glass of ice tea? Yum! Stuff those veins with fat and get those triclycerites nice and high. Each man has his weakness, as I'm sure you do too, Kevin. What will Jesus say if he finds you in hog heaven of your fill in vice? You name it; it's a sin if it takes control of your will to obey God.

rod...



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


rod,

You wrote, "Shoot! Walker. You did a fine job of shooting your pistol before it left the holster. You already have me pegged as a drunken fool sitting in bars with hopeless sinners toasting to gloom and doom."

I did NOT even write anything about YOU now did I rod??? Please cut and paste my words where I am guilty of this very thing. Once again, you throw out accusations, but where is your PROOF???

You wrote, "So, Walker take back your distorted character analysis about me and my Merlot( that' been sitting in the fridge for over 6 months now)."

I guess we are still in the last name calling stage right rod??? If I distored YOUR CHARACTER, please CUT AND PASTE my words to show HOW I am guilty of doing this thing about YOU????

You wrote, "Will Jesus check you on bearing false witness, Kevin Walker?"

Where is your PROOF that I am bearing "false witness" rod???

Now I see we are into first AND last names...amazing...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


Kevin! Grape Juice does not burst wine skins! Wine Kevin! Read the words. This has to be one of the biggest lies perpetuated by fundamental theologians!

rod...

...

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


Stick to the subject rod. We are talking about drinking...not eating...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.

Kevin, you're drunk with one-sided blind self-absorbed fundamentalist self-interpreting disregard for discernment and self-appoint judge and jury under Kevin's Doctrine and can't see any extensions in meanings or teachings from the concepts in having ONLY ONE MASTER. This does not restrict vice to only drinking. I am sticking to the subject, but I didn't realize that I had to spoon feed every single inference or reference in such a fundamentally specific one dimensional point of iota for you. What is it that you want? Is your doctrine so un-convaluted that everyone in your congregation must sit and read every word one at a time as not to get lost? Come on guy! It is ok to get all of the meanings from Scriptures, not just the "connect the dot" meanings.

You dare not touch a drink, fine! I'll drink to that! But, you are missing the entire point of that verse--any verse. You are afraid that one miili-speck of alcohol or even 4 ounces is gonna fry your brain. Well, consider that as we age, our brains cells are getting destroyed, just by living. You don't know what is in your drinking water or processed foods. Hey! even the Jews in the O.T. were just as paranoid with their "kosher" and sacrificial practices. They dare not touch even human secretions of any kind or there would be a sin payment due. Is this your angle, Kevin Walker?

Wine also has the effect of clearing the arteries. How's that for a health rememdy? And, you said that cough medicine is ok because it makes you feel good or something about a cure/rememdy. Uh.....somewhere in Proverbs (I'm rushing here) it talks about giving "strong drink" to those who are perishing. Uh......"strong drink", I don't think they mean Grape Juice, unless it's been sitting around awhile and has FERMENTED

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


I know of my Pentecostal friends who preached the same things you do, Kevin. "No drinking", "no dancing", "no other kind of music", "no pants on women", (I assume no dresses on men, but I could be wrong), "No partying", and so on. I found out that in their homes away from the watchful eyes of the church lady, they would dance to country music. I won't discuss part II of my discoveries. Now, the harder people try to live an image for others, the harder it is to deny certain things (that are permissible by God).

I tend to believe that if it makes your brother sin, I shouldn't do it in front of them. I must be sure that what I am doing please God, first. If my brother is easy victim for vices/sins, I'm not gonna influence him by my actions, especially when he doesn't understand my faith.

rod....



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


rod,

I am still waiting for your reply how I am guilty of:

(1) pegging YOU as a drunken fool sitting in bars with hopeless sinners toasting to gloom and doom.

(2) distorting YOUR character and YOUR Merlot (that' been sitting in the fridge for over 6 months now).

(3) bearing false witness, Kevin Walker?

rod wrote, "Kevin, you're drunk with one-sided blind self-absorbed fundamentalist self-interpreting disregard for discernment and self-appoint judge and jury under Kevin's Doctrine and can't see any extensions in meanings or teachings from the concepts in having ONLY ONE MASTER."

Wow, I NEVER said it was "Kevin's Doctrine" now did I rod??? If I am "drunk" and "blind" you have YET to PROVE this very thing now have you rod???

You wrote, "This does not restrict vice to only drinking. I am sticking to the subject, but I didn't realize that I had to spoon feed every single inference or reference in such a fundamentally specific one dimensional point of iota for you."

Does EATING have ANYTHING to do with DRINKING ALCOHOL??? Yes or No??? NO, it does NOT. So, since this IS the case, you didn't stick to the subject. You can "spoon feed" all you want as long as you stick to the subject we are discussing.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


Kevin--I am still waiting for your reply how I am guilty of:

(1) pegging YOU as a drunken fool sitting in bars with hopeless sinners toasting to gloom and doom.

rod--Kevin in your view, I'm damned because I think it is ok to drink wine (alcohol). I suppose much worse when I actually drink the wine. So, there wouldn't be a difference between me and those souls drinking themselves to death--sin is sin.

Kevin--(2) distorting YOUR character and YOUR Merlot (that' been sitting in the fridge for over 6 months now).

rod--Again. I'm damned for my view on drinking and living. The Merlot (purple wine) is also damned by your view. God doesn't damn it, does HE?

Kevin--(3) bearing false witness, Kevin Walker?

rod--You think that one sip is enough to make one sin. Well, I could agree with you there, but each man is different. I suppose for you it is a sin to take one sip, not for me. I think that it would take more for me to get drunk. I donnot get drunk. Yet, one sip is enough to accuse one of being a "drunkard", so in a round-about way you have called me such.

Kevin--rod wrote, "Kevin, you're drunk with one-sided blind self-absorbed fundamentalist self-interpreting disregard for discernment and self-appoint judge and jury under Kevin's Doctrine and can't see any extensions in meanings or teachings from the concepts in having ONLY ONE MASTER." Wow, I NEVER said it was "Kevin's Doctrine" now did I rod??? If I am "drunk" and "blind" you have YET to PROVE this very thing now have you rod???

rod--Hey, the Apostle were drunk with the Holy Spirit--a nice play on words, "drunk", "spirit".

Well, it isn't my doctrine that is condemning people for things that may not even be a sin. I don't have to prove it, Kevin. You are doing a fine job of proving it yourself. Kevin, you're not gonna see what I see. I can see what you see. Perhaps it is good to be "blind" or, better yet, to be like "children" when it comes to faith.

Kevin--You wrote, "This does not restrict vice to only drinking. I am sticking to the subject, but I didn't realize that I had to spoon feed every single inference or reference in such a fundamentally specific one dimensional point of iota for you." Does EATING have ANYTHING to do with DRINKING ALCOHOL??? Yes or No??? NO, it does NOT. So, since this IS the case, you didn't stick to the subject. You can "spoon feed" all you want as long as you stick to the subject we are discussing.

rod--That's exactly what I mean about the proof of my comments about your understandings.

Let's connect the dots here:

1. drinking leads to drunken-ness.
2. drunken-ness leads to vice.
3. vice puts the man slave to fleshy desires.
4. fleshly desires become the man's MASTER
5. any other master besides God puts man in disobedience to God.
6. disobedience to God leads to SIN
7. anything that leads a man to disobedience becomes that man's master.
8. food can very easily play the same role as does alcohol.
9. so, while people are pointing fingers at wine drinkers, they are forgetting to point fingers at others who have their own evil masters to follow.
10. take the log out of the eye sort of thing
11. this issue is not drinking and living, it is about having more than one master.

Do you see what I see, Kevin Walker believer in C

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


rod,

If you still want to comment on wine in the NT, please take your comments to this thread:

Wine in the New Testament

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


rod,

You still have not CUT and PASTED my words where I am guilty of doing these things which you accuse me of. I asked you to CUT AND PASTE MY WORDS and this you STILL have NOT done.

you wrote, "--Kevin in your view, I'm damned because I think it is ok to drink wine (alcohol). I suppose much worse when I actually drink the wine. So, there wouldn't be a difference between me and those souls drinking themselves to death--sin is sin."

I NEVER said you were "damned" now did I??? Did I Kevin Walker CONDEMN rod because he believes that it is ok to drink wine (alcohol)??? No he did NOT.

You wrote, "rod--Again. I'm damned for my view on drinking and living. The Merlot (purple wine) is also damned by your view. God doesn't damn it, does HE?"

Once again, I NEVER SAID that you were "damned for your view on drinking and living" I pointed out what God said and that is ALL. If you want to argue with God, that is your prerogative.

You wrote, "You think that one sip is enough to make one sin. Well, I could agree with you there, but each man is different. I suppose for you it is a sin to take one sip, not for me. I think that it would take more for me to get drunk. I do not get drunk. Yet, one sip is enough to accuse one of being a "drunkard", so in a round-about way you have called me such."

Since I have NOT condemned YOU for taking one sip, then I have NOT made ANY type of character assassinations. This was a pretty WEAK attempt on your part to make it APPEAR that I am guilty of "character assassination" and NOTHING could be further from the truth.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


Kevin?

Does this mean that I can have a glass of wine this Christmas or not?

(Without committing a sin in drinking the wine, that is.)

rod...

...

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.


Ephesians 2:8,"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" - KJV

God's grace, a gift we received through faith, saves.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.


Yes,

We are saved "By Grace" "THROUGH FAITH", but NOT by "faith only". There is NO such thing as "faith only" salvation.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 01, 2003.


Romans 4 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 12, 2004.

David,

If you will read Romans 4:5 IN "context", this is NOT telling US (Gentiles) that we do NOT need to work but just "believe" and that faith is accounted for "righteousness". Paul was speaking to the Roman JEWS for if you will look in verse 30, he tells them: "since there is one God who will justify the circumcised (Jews) BY FAITH and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) THROUGH FAITH." It is CLEAR that he was talking to those who wanted to be JUSTIFIED through the keeping of the law. (See verses 27-28).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 13, 2004.


Kevin...

The church in Rome was made up of Jews who had received Jesus. In other words--it was a Christian church that Paul was addressing.

Paul's whole point was that even those who had not been circumcised., were saved by faith. He was showing them that faith is what saves.

Abraham wasn't under the law..and furthermore., Abraham was saved before he was circumcised.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 13, 2004.


The justified one: -does "not work" -"trusts" -trusts not in himself but in another, "God." -confesses himself to be "wicked" -does not have faith in his faith -sees his faith only as "credited" to him -sees his faith credited as "righteousness"

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 13, 2004.

What?? Kevin, Faith?

Paul isn't addressing a church filled with Jews, not even Messianic Jews (though there might have been a few there). He is speaking to Gentiles, because it is to the Gentiles to whom he was chosen by Jesus to speak to. See Acts 9:15

Furthermore, in his letter to the Roman church Paul writes in 11:13 "I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them."

3:30 is spoken to whoever might believe in justification by the Law, not by faith, but Paul is still addressing non-physical Jews, aka Gentiles.

Perhaps the reason for the confusion is that Paul uses many Jewish arguments (See 2:1). He does this for 2 main reasons. 1st, to explain again how the grace of God is extended to Gentiles , and 2nd, to arouse envy of the Isralites into truth.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 14, 2004.


You are right Luke..,

I goofed. I was thinking about something else. Of course the Roman church was made up of Gentile Christians. I don't know what I was thinking?

But the point still stands that Paul was addressing believers--not Jews who wanted to follow the law.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 14, 2004.


Acts15:1 "And certain men...taught the brethren, and said,'Except ye be cirbumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.' 5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying,'That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.'"

Here is the first time we see Christians teaching others that they must keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved. The Galatian church had been carried away by these teachings, and so Paul dedicated nearly his entire letter to this issue. Many of his other letters included the same message, justification by faith, not by works. In the case of the Romans, he was either preventing the problem from occuring, or addressing the problem that already existed. We must be sure to distinguish what "works" is referring to, otherwise we cause contradiction between Paul and James.

Romans3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There are verses that speak about works of the flesh,works of darkness or wickedness which could never justify because these are sins.(See Gal.5:19 Eph.5:11 Col.1:21

I suppose the most misused verse to support "faith only" is Ephesians2:8,9 which says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Here, Paul does not write works of the law. So we must look at verse 8 to see. "Grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves." So what kind of works is Paul talking about? Works of ourselves by which one might boast. Which works does one boast about? We get our answer from Romans3 again. "Where is boasting then: It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay; but by the law of faith."

Moving back to Ephesians. 2:5We were dead in sin.6But God raised us up.2:8,9Not of ourselves lest we boast but by grace.12 We were uncircumcised in the flesh, seperated from God. 15But Jesus abolished the flesh, even the law of commandments, 16so that we might be reconciled with Him and 19 no longer strangers.

Again to Romans4:3Abraham believed God.9,10And while he was still uncircumcised, faith was reckoned to him for righteousness.12He is the father of who walk by faith, 14not those by law.

There are so many parallel passages and ideas in Paul's letters. He wrote so many times that we cannot be justified by works, but by faith. And yet, he also knew that we must confess to be saved (Romans10:10), that we must repent to be saved (2Cor7:10), and be baptized(water) to be saved (Gal3:27).

So it is very obvious that "not by works" does not mean faith only.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 15, 2004.


Interesting parallel found here Do we need to be baptized? about our favorite Ephesians verse!!

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 15, 2004.

Kevin says:

"There is NO such thing as "faith only" salvation."

I couldn't agree more. Kevin says we must have faith and obey the Gospel, which to me seems pretty close to the Catholic position of faith AND works, but I am sure Kevin will disagree. My question to Kevin is how do you know whether you have obeyed the Gospel enough to be saved? After all, we are all sinners, but some sins seem to be unforgiveable, such as the ones that Kevins thinks that Catholics commit. Can a member of the Church of Christ commit a sin on his deathbed and be saved? What sins are allowed and what sins are not allowed?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), April 16, 2004.


The only thing that condemns a man is his rejection of God. That is the ultimate sin of sins. All the little sins we commit as individuals are not what we are judged by. We are either judged guilty for rejecting Jesus Christ--or we are judged innocent in Christ.

Whether one swears, or commits murder is not the issue. These are all signs of the ultimate sin--that we reject Christ.

When we are saved--it isn't because we are no longer going to sin. We of course, will desire to do better--but ultimately, we will mess up because we are only human. What saves us is not what we do--but what Jesus has done for us. When God looks at us--he sees the blood of Jesus.

There is nothing we could ever do that would be good enough to earn us a ticket to heaven on our own. And there is nothing we could possibly add to the perfect work of Christ at the cross.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 16, 2004.


James,

You wrote, "My question to Kevin is how do you know whether you have obeyed the Gospel enough to be saved?"

There is no such thing as "obeying the Gospel enough to be saved". Please go back and re-read Romans 6:17. The apostle Paul was able to "see" their obedience for the "doctrine" that they were delivered was the gospel of Christ. When one obeys the gospel, which is the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ by Hearing the gospel, Believing the gospel, Repenting of their sins (which is their Death), Confessing their faith in the gospel, and being baptized IN water FOR the remission of their sins (they are Buried with Christ IN water, then they are Resurrected when they come up out of the watery grave of baptism to live a new life), then one can say that they have "obeyed the gospel".

You wrote, "After all, we are all sinners, but some sins seem to be unforgiveable, such as the ones that Kevins thinks that Catholics commit."

Catholics CLAIM that they have "obeyed the gospel", but they do LIE and not speak the truth. It is IMPOSSIBLE for an infant to be baptized INTO Christ without FAITH in Christ.

You wrote, "Can a member of the Church of Christ commit a sin on his deathbed and be saved?"

As long as they repent of that sin, the answer is Yes.

You wrote, "What sins are allowed and what sins are not allowed?"

James, NO sin is allowed. What does Romans 6:23 say???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 17, 2004.


Faith wrote, "There is nothing we could ever do that would be good enough to earn us a ticket to heaven on our own."

Yes, we cannot EARN a ticket to heaven, but we are COMMANDED to OBEY (See Hebrews 5:9) everything that is WRITTEN, for we will be judged by our WORKS by the things which are WRITTEN. (See Revelation 20:12 and John 12:48).

Jesus says in Luke 17:10, "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.'"

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 17, 2004.


But the judgement on our deeds is not for salvation. It is for rewards--or the lack thereof., in heaven....

Our good deeds will either survive the test--in the fire-- and come out shining.., or else they will burn-up. But we are still saved.

"His work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Corinthians 3:15

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 17, 2004.


Faith,

1 Corinthians 3:15 is NOT speaking of one's "good deeds", this is speaking of some who will be LOST by being "burned". Go back and read verses 6-14 this is speaking of someone's teaching of others. The reward is based on the one receiving the teaching ONLY if they "endure" (verse 14) for it is possible for someone to "fall away" and be lost. The loss they will suffer is another brother or sister in Christ. This is why the apostle James said in James 3:1, "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 17, 2004.


No offense Kevin--but your interpretation is wacky to me.

Where on earth to you see anything about anyone being lost by being burned?? This epistle is written to the people in the church at Corinth. Paul was addressing division among the body of believers in that church. He was telling them that we are not to build any foundation other than that of Jesus Christ--and that anyone who taught things that do not build the church up--their deeds would burn in the fire--but that they are still saved. This may be directed at ministers or teachers in particular but it is also directed to all believers--the church, as we are all apostles of Jesus Christ--fully equipped by the Word to teach and rebukWe are judged for salvation by whether or not we are found in Christ. But our good works or deeds are judged and we are either rewarded or not based on whether or not they past the test.



-- (faith01@myway.com), April 17, 2004.


How can someone teach false doctrine, and that work be "burned", and those that they have taught this false doctrine still be saved if this doctrine was built on with gold, silver etc. (verse 12) and suffer loss??? The apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:27, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." Those who teach false doctrine, will be LOST and if you do NOT believe this statement, please go back and re-read 1 Corinthians 3:16-17.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 17, 2004.

The verse isn't refering to the hearers.., it is refering to those who teach wrongly. These in Corinth are saved Christians who might add to the foundation of the church and teach something not taught by Jesus or the original apostles.

The one who will suffer loss--is the one whose work is being tested. Not the general hearers.

The person who suffers loss is still saved. That's what the Bible says.

There are plenty of verses that indicate that people can be led astray., or not fed all the truth--yet they are saved as well.

I think of the story of the rich man.

"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day (Could this be representative of a religious pharisee?)

At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. (Could this beggar man be symbolic of the hungry and lost?)

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side...." Luke 16-23

Notice that the beggar is in heaven, though he was kept from the spiritual food he needed... Of course the rich man was not a saved Christian.., but I think we can see the point.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 18, 2004.


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