What does it mean to be born of Water and the Spirit?

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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

The Bible says in John 3:5 "?Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

What does this mean that one must be born of WATER and the SPIRIT to enter the kingdom of God?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 21, 2003

Answers

Luke 8:11 says that "the Seed is the word of God."

And Jesus also says in Matt 15:13 "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted."

The Bible says in John 3:5 "?Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus that in order to enter the kingdom of God, one had to be born again (A spiritual birth and not a physical birth) by WATER and the SPIRIT (which is the Word of God) in order to enter the kingdom. Water = Baptism; Spirit = God's Word; See the following passages: 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Corinthians 4:15, Ephesians 6:17.

Now we know what water is referring to in this passage, Water of course, but what does "born of the Spirit mean?" Look at James 1:18 and compare with James 1:21. This most certainly says that the IMPLANTED WORD is able to SAVE our souls. 1 Peter 1:23 says, "having been BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible SEED but incorruptible, THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD which lives and abides forever," This says that we are born again BY incorruptible seed THROUGH the word of God. Paul agrees with this in 1 Cor. 4:15. The Bible in Ephesians 6:17 makes a statement that "the sword of the SPIRIT, which is the WORD OF GOD." So, all of these passages agree that to be "born of the Spirit", means that we are "BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD".

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 21, 2003.


born of water = that which is born of flesh is flesh = (first) time in mother's womb

born of the Spirit = that which is born of the Spirit is spirit = born again

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 25, 2003.


"born of water" refers to natural birth, as Jesus mentioned being "born of the flesh". Water baptism is not spoken of here and was not the topic of discussion. Jesus was answering Nicodemus' question "can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 25, 2003.


The word of God says: Preaching Christ involves preaching baptism for the remission of sins. Jesus told Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

The new birth, which marks our entrance into the kingdom of God, requires "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5).

Water means water. Some [like David] have foolishly tried to relate this term to "the water" broken forth at physical childbirth, but such a definition has at least two major problems:

First, "The water" which protects an unborn child is not really water (as in H2O). It is amniotic fluid (samples of which are used to detect genetic defects).

Second, Jesus is NOT talking about any kind of physical rebirth, but rather He is describing what is involved in a SPIRITUAL rebirth.

If Jesus did not mean literal water (H2O), what did He mean? What should He have said to convey this point?

I believe we must take Jesus at His word ? WATER MEANS WATER.

A spiritual rebirth requires PHYSICAL WATER (H2O - i.e. the waters of Baptism).

The Ethiopian eunuch obviously understood this. "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is WATER; what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED?" (Acts 8:36).

Philip had "preached unto him Jesus" (Acts 8:35), and the man knew he needed to find WATER in which to be BAPTIZED. Preaching Jesus necessarily INCLUDES preaching WATER BAPTISM! To claim to preach Christ without preaching BAPTISM IN WATER is equal to not preaching Him at all!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 25, 2003.


Kevin, obviously you do not know what figurative language is.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2003.



I would have to agree with David on this one, Kevin. There must be some reason for stating the obvious-"born of water"-in that verse. There is a higher meaning going on here that we have not yet seen. If we look at today's society, we can see how science is making advances in the medical field. Hello "cloning" and such. Do you believe that a day will come when humans will no longer be "born of water"-that is the womb- and instead in some labratory dish? If such a thing is possible, where would this put man and God?

Well, this is a bunch of speculation on my part.

rod..

..


-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


Kevin hasn't posted in a while, think he's loading up on more scriptures to cannonball us with????

Auf Widersehen

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2003.


Kevin would you please have a look at all of the references to water that are found in both the O.T. and the N.T. Water has always seemed to symbolize a rebirth or a new beginning. The Garden of Eden has its rivers of choice, Noah finds new beginnings after the flood, Moses is delivered to his new life from his waterway ride, and John the Baptist uses his Jordan River for the symbolic pathway to Christ. But, in this particular verse, we can plainly see that the "new" life begins with birth as the "water" breaks in delivery of the infant. The key word to this verse is "spirit". First we are born and then we are re-born. First of the flesh and then of the spirit. Jesus is making it very clear and obvious that our spirit is likened to our birth and so when we are baptized it is symbolically done with water. Water is the symbol of our birth in the Spirit. "Born again", to barrow a term, is that meaning in that verse.

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


Kevin, it goes to show how far you'll twist scripture to add water baptism to salvation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2003.


"Baptized in the Holy Spirit". But, wait! Is it true that the UPC does not believe in such a thing? They baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, not in "The name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Spirit)"

Is this true?

Ja! Minefeet are stained.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.



The United Pentecostal Church International:

"They share with other "Oneness Pentecostals" the practice of baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ only. (See Acts 2:38) Almost all Christian denominations follow Matthew 28:19 and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They believe that anyone who is not baptized in the name of Jesus only will not be accepted into heaven when they die. That would include almost the entire human race. They reject the traditional concept of the Trinity. They do not believe that the Godhead is composed of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They believe that God is a unity, a Spirit, who has manifested himself in three roles or "offices, roles, or relationship to humanity."

The United Pentecostal Church International.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


I think David's little joke about the 8 people in the boat has a ring of reality to it. I'm not quite convinced that the boat is exactly headed to the place we think it is, though.

rod..

..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


Kevin: First, "The water" which protects an unborn child is not really water (as in H2O). It is amniotic fluid (samples of which are used to detect genetic defects).

rod: Really? Well, then the water that you find in a river, lake, stream, canal, reservoir, ocean, spring, oasis, or puddle is really not water as in H2O because, just like amniotic fluid, samples of the water's purity or inpurity can be detected. So, where are you going to find "real" H2O? And, how much of our human body is composed of "water"? When communion is celebrated, wine and water are combined. Did Christ bleed both blood and water from his wounds? Yes.

Kevin: A spiritual rebirth requires PHYSICAL WATER (H2O - i.e. the waters of Baptism).

rod: A spiritual rebirth requires confession of sins, repentance, rejection of satan, the acceptance to follow Christ, and the act of Baptism. Application of water on the believer is symbolic of the cleansing of the soul in preparation to following Christ. Baptism is like a "re-birth" similar to our new life in actual birth. The flesh means nothing; the spiritual birth leads to eternal life in Christ.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


If your distorted understanding of the Gospel is a result of the poor teachings of the UPCI, I suggest that you have a look at their doctrine and decide if what they are teaching is the truth or your understanding of their teachings is in sync with theirs. Then, go back and re-think the "Trinity". If you cannot accept the "Holy Trinity", your little 8 man boat will have big oh giant holes in them and will surely sink. The disbelief that the "Holy Trinity" does not exist makes the UPCI a cult.

Kevin please make an effort to question all doctrine starting with yours. You need to find the truth, but, as long as you keep following the blind in truth, you will navigate in circles.

"barrow"??
I meant "borrow".

rod..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


Consider this:

I have witnessed Pentecostals (I don't know which division) behave in some extremely peculiar ways after, allegedly, receiving the Holy Spirit. They would begin to convulse, fall, tremble, speak in tongues (un-intelligle language), and so on. I couldn't believe my eyes and ears, so it was difficult for me to accept that the Holy Spirit was received by them.

Now, when the Apostles were given the Holy Spirit by Jesus, the Apostles did not go into those behaviors I've mentioned above. The Apostles experienced xenoglossia-the sudden speaking in languages they were previously unable to speak-and knowledge of the Scriptures. Plus, they were able to perform miracles.

It is believed that those charisms are no longer present after receiving the Holy Spirit. I beleive that charisms are still present, but are not limited to those the Apostles were given. Just because we are unable to witness or accept such charisms doesn't mean that they don't exist.

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.



True believers do have the Holy Spirit to comfort them. The evidence does not have to be some spectacular event. But, it can be found in the change in ones thoughts and behavior. It can be found in his or her growth in faith.

rod..

..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


David wrote, "Kevin, obviously you do not know what figurative language is."

Yes, David I know what figurative language is. If there is figurative language in the use of the word WATER in John 3:5, then you ought to be able to PROVE IT!!! When you go to PROVE where this is NOT physical water, please reference the Greek word that is used in this verse in your reply.

rod wrote, "I would have to agree with David on this one, Kevin. There must be some reason for stating the obvious-"born of water"-in that verse. There is a higher meaning going on here that we have not yet seen."

How hard is it for you and David to understand what God PLAINLY says in John 3:5??? Nicodemus thought Jesus was talking of a physical birth, but Jesus corrected that misunderstanding when He said in John 3:6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Then rod goes completely off the topic when he says, "If we look at today's society, we can see how science is making advances in the medical field. Hello "cloning" and such. Do you believe that a day will come when humans will no longer be "born of water"-that is the womb- and instead in some labratory dish? If such a thing is possible, where would this put man and God?" which has absolutely NOTHING to do with what God has said in His word. Who can believe it???

Then rod said, "Well, this is a bunch of speculation on my part."

I will say AMEN to that statement for that is ALL that you did in your last several sentences.

rod wrote, "Kevin would you please have a look at all of the references to water that are found in both the O.T. and the N.T. Water has always seemed to symbolize a rebirth or a new beginning. The Garden of Eden has its rivers of choice, Noah finds new beginnings after the flood, Moses is delivered to his new life from his waterway ride, and John the Baptist uses his Jordan River for the symbolic pathway to Christ. But, in this particular verse, we can plainly see that the "new" life begins with birth as the "water" breaks in delivery of the infant. The key word to this verse is "spirit". First we are born and then we are re-born. First of the flesh and then of the spirit. Jesus is making it very clear and obvious that our spirit is likened to our birth and so when we are baptized it is symbolically done with water. Water is the symbol of our birth in the Spirit. "Born again", to barrow a term, is that meaning in that verse."

No rod, there are two (2) REQUIREMENTS in this verse to enter the kingdom (which is the church) and that is WATER (water means water where I come from) and SPIRIT. Water is NOT the symbol of our birth in the Spirit, once again that is mere SPECULATION on your part. If this is the case, then you ought to be able to PROVE through the word of God where WATER = SPIRIT in this verse.

David wrote, "Kevin, it goes to show how far you'll twist scripture to add water baptism to salvation."

If I am guilty of twisting scripture to add water baptism to salvation, then first you need to be able to PROVE that water baptism is NOT part of the salvation process. I have shown you numerous times where water baptism IS REQUIRED in order to be saved, and all you do is come back and tell me that I am twisting scripture without even bothering to PROVE me wrong. This is typical of all false teachers who do NOT respect the word of God.

Jesus said: He who believes AND is baptized WILL BE SAVED. (Mark 16:16).

David says: He who believes IS SAVED and then can be baptized. (Scripture???).

rod made a mistake when he MISTAKENLY quoted me as saying: "Kevin: First, "The water" which protects an unborn child is not really water (as in H2O). It is amniotic fluid (samples of which are used to detect genetic defects)."

rod, Please go back and re-read who made that post and you will see that it was David who said that, and NOT Kevin.

rod ACCURATELY quotes me this time when I said: "Kevin: A spiritual rebirth requires PHYSICAL WATER (H2O - i.e. the waters of Baptism)."

To which rod replied: "A spiritual rebirth requires confession of sins, repentance, rejection of satan, the acceptance to follow Christ, and the act of Baptism. Application of water on the believer is symbolic of the cleansing of the soul in preparation to following Christ. Baptism is like a "re-birth" similar to our new life in actual birth. The flesh means nothing; the spiritual birth leads to eternal life in Christ."

No rod, A spiritual rebirth does NOT only require baptism, it requires FAITH, REPENTANCE, CONFESSION, and BAPTISM. Baptism is NOT symbolic, when one is baptized, they are baptized INTO Christ and His death. Jesus shed His blood in His death, and we contact His blood when we are baptized INTO HIS DEATH. The gospel = the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus. We obey the gospel when we first have Faith in the gospel, we Repent of our sins (This is when we are said to Die to sin – i.e. our Death), Confess our faith in the gospel of Jesus (as the Ethiopian Eunuch did in Acts chapter 8), and are Baptized IN WATER FOR THE REMISSION OF OUR SINS. When we come up out of the waters of Baptism, we are RAISED to walk a new life (Our resurrection). That is how one OBEYS THE GOSPEL.

rod wrote, "If your distorted understanding of the Gospel is a result of the poor teachings of the UPCI, I suggest that you have a look at their doctrine and decide if what they are teaching is the truth or your understanding of their teachings is in sync with theirs. Then, go back and re-think the "Trinity". If you cannot accept the "Holy Trinity", your little 8 man boat will have big oh giant holes in them and will surely sink. The disbelief that the "Holy Trinity" does not exist makes the UPCI a cult."

rod, once again you do ERR for I am NOT a member of UPCI. I am a member of the church of Christ.

rod continued with: "Consider this: I have witnessed Pentecostals (I don't know which division) behave in some extremely peculiar ways after, allegedly, receiving the Holy Spirit. They would begin to convulse, fall, tremble, speak in tongues (un-intelligle language), and so on. I couldn't believe my eyes and ears, so it was difficult for me to accept that the Holy Spirit was received by them. Now, when the Apostles were given the Holy Spirit by Jesus, the Apostles did not go into those behaviors I've mentioned above. The Apostles experienced xenoglossia-the sudden speaking in languages they were previously unable to speak-and knowledge of the Scriptures. Plus, they were able to perform miracles. It is believed that those charisms are no longer present after receiving the Holy Spirit. I beleive that charisms are still present, but are not limited to those the Apostles were given. Just because we are unable to witness or accept such charisms doesn't mean that they don't exist."

rod, I think you need to re-phrase this question to David for he is a member of the Assemblies of God denomination and they believe in this sort of thing.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.


Kevin. You are a difficult person to converse with. You still must have everything spoon fed in terms of understanding Scriptures. Of course, we must have faith. It seems obvious in the things I've written in this forum that faith is required. I am beginning to understand why you were once banned in the other forum. You make pretzels of other's comments. You would do well in the company of glassy-eyed, brain washed followers who cannot debate with you and take everyting you say as sacred revelations.

Here is a tip for you, Kevin.

When Christ returns, please, please! don't argue with Him.

rod..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


rod,

You wrote, "Kevin. You are a difficult person to converse with."

Not at all!!! I don't go run and hide somewhere else when I can not answer someone's questions which is what you conveniently do quite often. Once again, I told you how you mistaken and you brush it off and just say "Kevin. You are a difficult person to converse with." instead of answering what I wrote.

You wrote, "You still must have everything spoon fed in terms of understanding Scriptures. Of course, we must have faith. It seems obvious in the things I've written in this forum that faith is required."

rod, I never said that you did NOT require faith in order for someone to be saved!!! Where did this statement come from??? Once again, you do NOT answer my questions, you just go out in left field somewhere and go off the subject in which we were discussing. If I have to have "everything spoon fed in terms of understanding Scriptures" to me, then I would like to suggest that you get busy in doing this very thing. For there has been very little from you in this area of understanding Scripture in which you seem to be an expert since I obviously do not understand.

You wrote, "I am beginning to understand why you were once banned in the other forum. You make pretzels of other's comments. "

Well rod, I make "pretzels of other's comments" because they do NOT make any sense at all!!! When are you going to start answering what I write instead of ducking my responses or writing about something else that has absolutely no bearing on the topic we are discussing???

You wrote, "You would do well in the company of glassy-eyed, brain washed followers who cannot debate with you and take everyting you say as sacred revelations."

You would do well to answer what I have posted to you instead of changing the subject. I never once said that anyone is to take what I say as "sacred revelations" now did I??? I have said and will continue to say that it is the Gospel that is the POWER of God to salvation (Romans 1:16), and those who do NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL will be LOST. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

P.S. I have NO intention of arguing with Christ when He returns.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.


Kevin, I don't switch subjects on you. I am trying to give you examples, but you just don't get it. I'm trying to expand on the meanings that can be found in Scriptures.

What reason would I have to hide from you or anyone in this forum? This discussion does not have any harmful effects on me or anyone else, so I don't have to disguise myself. So, stop assuming that I'm hiding or evading your questions. I am answering, but you just don't get it.

I am thinking that you are about 15 years old, yes?

John 3:5-8

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (KJV)

Jesus tells us of being "born of water" to mean that the Kingdom of God is meant for all of us. Do you know of anyone not born from his mother's womb? Even Jesus was born of his mother's womb.

Jesus tells us of being "born of the Spirit" to mean that the Kingdom of God is meant for us who have faith and accept Christ as our Savior. How wrong would it be to believe at least this tiny bit of meaning from Matthew 3:5?

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


Here is an example of extracting many possible meanings from one truth. Try to follow this simple logical example:

1+3=4

2+2=4

4+0=4

Imagine that "4" is the Scripture and the other numbers represent the many implications or meanings that are given to us as we understand the Scriptures. This is what I mean by the Scriptures having a universal meaning.

I know; I've probably lost you on this one. Trust me, I'm not changing subjects.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


rod,

No, you just don't get it...

Preaching Christ involves preaching baptism (in WATER) FOR the remission of sins. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". Which part of this statement do you NOT understand? Born of water = baptism IN water (See Acts 22:16), Born of the Spirit = Word of God. (See 1 Peter 1:23-25). Faith comes by what? (See Romans 10:17). Get it?

In Matthew 28:19, Christ COMMANDED His disciples to BAPTIZE those whom they taught.

In Mark 16:16, Jesus settled the matter for those who would question baptism's (in WATER) connection with salvation. He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Who has the authority to contradict Christ?

There is an example in the New Testament of an individual who preached Christ. In Acts 8:35, the record states that when Philip taught the Ethiopian eunuch, he "began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus." The next verse says, "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" In verses 38-39, Philip baptized him (in WATER). Plain and simple, Philip "preached Jesus"; however, it involved preaching baptism. Thus, to claim to preach Christ without preaching baptism (in WATER) is equal to not preaching him at all.

The Lord Jesus shed this blood in His death (John 19:33-34). We, when we are buried IN the WATERY GRAVE of baptism (Remember John 3:5 where WATER is one of the Requirements to ENTER the Kingdom?),are "baptized into his death" (Romans 6:3), or "buried with him by baptism into death" (Romans 6:4). It is when we are buried in baptism that we are recipients of the cleansing effects of the blood. Having died to our old sins, been buried in the waters of baptism, and raised to "walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4), we are free from our sin. We "have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine" and are now "free from sin" (Romans 6:17-18). Therefore, to speak of baptism and its necessity takes nothing away from the blood of Christ. Both the blood of Christ and baptism are necessary for the remission of sins (Matthew 26:28; Acts 2:38). The shedding of His blood is what Christ did to bring about man's salvation. Being baptized (In WATER) FOR the remission of sins is what man does in order to be the recipient of salvation.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.


rod,

Jesus said in Mark 16:16, If you Believe and are Baptized, I will promise you salvation. The logic in this statement is easily understood in other settings. For example, If I said to you, Wash my car and mow my lawn, I promise you 200 dollars. What would you have to do to get the 200 dollars? Would I owe you 200 dollars if you only washed my car? Of course NOT!!! I didn't promise you 200 dollars for washing my car!! But this is EXACTLY the logic used by those who claim that Jesus said He promised salvation at the point of Faith. It is the same as if they were saying you promised me 200 dollars for washing my car!! All would normally understand what was required to gain the 200 dollars, yet NOT all will apply the same logic fairly and honestly in considering the requirements of Mark 16:16!!!

You see the divine formula given by Christ in this verse is WITHOUT DOUBT, B + B = S (Belief + Baptism = Salvation). Those who would remove Baptism from God's plan of Salvation (those who teach one is saved by FAITH ONLY) teach a DIFFERENT formula, B = S + B (Belief = Salvation + Baptism). The question then becomes not what does the Bible say? It is obvious!!! The question now is will you obey God's plan of Salvation or will you obey Man's plan of Salvation???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.


"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

The word "baptized" is probably causing all of your confusion. You need to understand what the believer is being baptized in. It isn't the water; it is the Holy Spirit, the Word, Jesus Christ. It is not the water. The water is the symbol as I've stated earlier. The water will have no meaning if the person being baptized does not believe.

Is this clear to you, Kevin?

rod..

..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003.


No rod, we are NOT "baptized into the Holy Spirit" as you falsely state. Go back and re-read the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts chapter 8. All Philip did was "Preach Jesus to him". (v 35). Please tell me if we are "baptized into the Holy Spirit" how the Ethiopian Eunuch got "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" in verse 36???

What was Philip's response? (See v 37). In verse 38, Philip and the Eunuch both went DOWN INTO THE WATER, (WATER = WATER) and he (Philip) baptized him.

So much for Holy Spirit baptism!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2003.


Kevin are you saying that the Eunuch will not receive the Holy Spirit after being baptized?

Are you also saying that Dismas, who died on the cross with Christ, did not receive Salvation because he was not baptized? (or, at least it was not mentioned in the Bible whether he was or not)

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.


Kevin, you still have the problem of those people in the O.T. who were not baptized. What has become of their Salvation? Where do you place Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Moses and Aaron, and everyone else? They obeyed God, yet continued with following the "law" and ritual.

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.


Remember Noah and the recurring theme that water has in the O.T. The theme centers on new beginnings or rebirth.

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.


rod,

You wrote, "Kevin are you saying that the Eunuch will not receive the Holy Spirit after being baptized?"

I did NOT say that now did I??? Why do you continue to put words in my mouth???

You wrote, "Are you also saying that Dismas, who died on the cross with Christ, did not receive Salvation because he was not baptized? (or, at least it was not mentioned in the Bible whether he was or not)"

First off, there is NO mention of the thief on the cross name (you mentioned the name Dismas - which is NOT supported in the word of God). Who are you to say the thief was NOT baptized. I have told you before that Jesus while He was on this earth had the power to forgive sins. Which part of that statement do you not understand? The thief died under the Old Covenant, or OT Law and was NOT subject to the command to be baptized FOR the remission of sin for that gospel message was preached and obeyed beginning in Jerusalem and those who obeyed the gospel were then saved.

You wrote, "Kevin, you still have the problem of those people in the O.T. who were not baptized. What has become of their Salvation? Where do you place Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Moses and Aaron, and everyone else? They obeyed God, yet continued with following the "law" and ritual."

rod, they were saved by FAITH under the OT Law and were NOT subject to the requirements to OBEY THE GOSPEL for this gospel had NOT yet been given.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 05, 2003.


Kevin: " Who are you to say the thief was NOT baptized. "

rod: Now look who is putting words in who's mouth. Re-read my post.

"Are you also saying that Dismas, who died on the cross with Christ, did not receive Salvation because he was not baptized? (or, at least it was not mentioned in the Bible whether he was or not)"
Kevin. These are questions. Did you notice the question mark at the end? I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean.

This is putting words in your mouth, watch:

Kevin believes that Dismas is saved.
Do you see the difference?

rod..

..


-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.


The soul never ceases to exist.

..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.


Very well rod, please forgive me for FALSELY ACCUSING you of putting words in my mouth. When I am wrong, I ADMIT that I am WRONG. Are you willing to do the same when I point out to you where you are WRONG?

Yes, the soul never ceases to exist.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 05, 2003.


How do you know for sure that you don't do the same with Scriptures?

Just the way you have read-in something that is not there in my posts, you may very well do the same thing in reading Scriptures. Yes?

I am not perfect and can see that we all may not be able to read the Scriptures perfectly with pure understanding.

Now, you're making me feel like a priest. Of course I forgive you, there is no doubt of that.

rod..

..


-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.


rod,

You wrote, "How do you know for sure that you don't do the same with Scriptures?"

For the very reason that my interpretation does NOT go against what is plainly stated in His word!!!

You wrote, "Just the way you have read-in something that is not there in my posts, you may very well do the same thing in reading Scriptures. Yes?"

No that is not the case because the doctrines in which I believe ARE EXACTLY what the word of God teaches and nothing more.

You wrote, "I am not perfect and can see that we all may not be able to read the Scriptures perfectly with pure understanding."

rod, I have told you before and even gave you Scripture references to back up what I said when I told you that it was POSSIBLE to UNDERSTAND the Scriptures. God did NOT make his word out to be IMPOSSIBLE to understand now did He???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 05, 2003.


Kevin, a Christian is not born 3 times. We are born physically first, then spiritaully. We are not born, then born again and again.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.


"How hard is it for you and David to understand what God PLAINLY says in John 3:5??? Nicodemus thought Jesus was talking of a physical birth, but Jesus corrected that misunderstanding when He said in John 3:6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

On John 3:5, baptism had not been instituted yet. If 'water' does mean baptism, then the only baptism could be the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mk 1:4), and if it is that then it is not need for salvation because baptism of repentance is no longer practiced. John 3:6 clearly refers to natural and spiritual birth.

"If I am guilty of twisting scripture to add water baptism to salvation, then first you need to be able to PROVE that water baptism is NOT part of the salvation process. I have shown you numerous times where water baptism IS REQUIRED in order to be saved, and all you do is come back and tell me that I am twisting scripture without even bothering to PROVE me wrong. This is typical of all false teachers who do NOT respect the word of God. Jesus said: He who believes AND is baptized WILL BE SAVED. (Mark 16:16)."

"...but he who does not to believe will be condemned." Mk 16:16,

which is why it focuses on belief and not baptism. Ok, this is my 'proof' of you misusing scripture. You cling to a sentence, and fail to read the rest of the verse.

"rod, Please go back and re-read who made that post and you will see that it was David who said that, and NOT Kevin."

What? I said no such thing about H2O or Amniotic fluid.

"and are Baptized IN WATER FOR THE REMISSION OF OUR SINS."

Can’t you see your heresy? Baptized for remission of sins!!! "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

"rod, once again you do ERR for I am NOT a member of UPCI. I am a member of the church of Christ."

Funny because UPCI would agree with you on baptism being necessary for salvation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.


In

n 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul says, "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel". Clearly he is saying baptism is not part of the gospel. According to Kevin, if he just preached the Gospel, he would be 'in grave err' and all those people would not have salvation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.


David,

You wrote, "Kevin, a Christian is not born 3 times. We are born physically first, then spiritaully. We are not born, then born again and again."

I did not say that we are born 3 times? If I did this, please cut and paste my words in your next reply.

You wrote, "On John 3:5, baptism had not been instituted yet. If ‘water’ does mean baptism, then the only baptism could be the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mk 1:4), and if it is that then it is not need for salvation because baptism of repentance is no longer practiced. John 3:6 clearly refers to natural and spiritual birth."

Where is your proof that "baptism had not been instituted yet" as you claim on John 3:5? Was the baptism of John "for the remission of sin"??? Yes or No. Did Jesus clearly state that "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47). John the Baptist preached a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Luke 3:3). Repentance AND Remission of Sins WAS PREACHED on the day of Pentecost just as Jesus foretold in Luke 24:47 for in Acts 2:38 the Apostle Peter said, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."

Get it!!!

In John 3:5, Jesus clearly stated 2 requirements to enter the kingdom (which is the church), WATER (which is what happens when we are baptized INTO Christ and His death – then the Lord ADDS us to His church. See Acts 2:47), and the SPIRIT (which is the word of God – See 1 Peter 1:23).

Jesus shed His blood FOR the remission of sin for Matthew 26:28 states, "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Baptism is also FOR the remission of sin for Acts 2:38 states, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."

I asked you to, "PROVE that water baptism is NOT part of the salvation process."

To which you replied, "...but he who does not to believe will be condemned." Mk 16:16, which is why it focuses on belief and not baptism. Ok, this is my ‘prove’ of you misusing scripture. You cling to a sentence, and fail to read the rest of the verse."

Really now David??? I did NOT misuse Scripture as you falsely state, and did read the rest of the verse. Please tell me David what the last part of this sentence in Mark 16:16 (He who does not believe is condemned) CHANGES the requirement to be baptized to be saved in the first part of the verse? If the last part of the verse CHANGES the requirement to be baptized, then why did God create a CONTRADICTION in which you allege that this verse is plainly speaking of? There is NO contradictions in the word of God for He plainly states that BELIEF AND BAPTISM are required in order to be saved. You are the one who is twisting Scripture to support your false doctrine that one is saved by FAITH ONLY. You say that Mark 16:16 ONLY states that one is saved by BELIEF and this is NOT what Jesus said in this verse.

You wrote, "Can’t you see your heresy? Baptized for remission of sins!!! "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7)."

Yes David, I showed you above that Jesus shed His blood FOR the remission of sin and Baptism is ALSO said to be FOR the remission of sin. Compare Matt 26:28 and Acts 2:38.

I wrote, " rod, once again you do ERR for I am NOT a member of UPCI. I am a member of the church of Christ."

To which David replied, "Funny because UPCI would agree with you on baptism being necessary for salvation."

David, I made a correct statement for I am NOT a member of UPCI as rod falsely stated.

You wrote, "In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul says, "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel". Clearly he is saying baptism is not part of the gospel. According to Kevin, if he just preached the Gospel, he would be 'in grave err' and all those people would not have salvation."

No David, Paul did NOT state that baptism was NOT part of the gospel. He merely stated that his mission was NOT to baptize, but it was to PREACH the gospel. Clearly Paul preached baptism for he baptized several people, Crispus and Gais and the household of Stephanus. Did Paul sin for baptizing them if it is not part of the gospel? No, I think not. Paul clearly stated that he did not baptize more because the Corinthians were guilty of contentions as 1 Corinthians 1:11 states. Paul also CLEARLY stated in 1 Corinthians 1:13 that to be OF CHRIST, one must be BAPTIZED.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2003.


John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It can be no clearer than this. If you believe you live if you don't you die.

-- (readitforyourself@godsway.com), November 19, 2003.


Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A: Belief B: Baptism C: Salvation D: Damnation

Most would agree D = NOT C.

given A AND B => C NOT A => D so NOT (NOT A) => NOT D A => NOT D A => C

Therefore the only thing needed for Salvation is Belief (which we know comes from God).

-- pure logic (purelogic@logic.com), November 19, 2003.


Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. A: Belief B: Baptism C: Salvation D: Damnation Most would agree D = NOT C. given A AND B => C

NOT A => D

so NOT (NOT A) => NOT D

A => NOT D

A => C Therefore the only thing needed for Salvation is Belief (which we know comes from God).

-- (purelogic@logic.com), November 19, 2003.


read it for yourself wrote: "John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Please notice this verse says "SHOULD NOT PERISH" and NOT "WILL NOT PERISH" there IS a difference.

read it for yourself wrote: "John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Notice once again this verse also says "SHOULD NOT PERISH" and NOT "WILL NOT PERISH"

read it for yourself wrote" "John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

This passage does NOT teach faith only as pure logic assumes. One MUST analyze the WHOLE 3rd Chapter of John. Verse 5 shows that MORE than faith is needed. In verses 14-15 the EXAMPLE of Moses is used to show the NEED for OBEDIENCE. John Chapter 3 is a commentary on John 1:12. John 12:42-43 states that MANY of the rulers BELIEVED in Jesus, but they were NOT saved because they REFUSED TO OBEY. (They refused to CONFESS). So this PROVES that MORE THAN FAITH is REQUIRED in order to be SAVED.

read it for yourself wrote: "John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

People are BORN INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD!!! Claiming faith as the rulers did in John 12:42-43 does NOT prove faith. Faith is DEMONSTRATED by OBEDIENCE to the COMMANDS of God. (See John 3:21). Those who CLAIM that one is saved by "faith only" by using the "sinners prayer" for OBEDIENCE to the GOSPEL is an AFFRONT to Bible teaching. The words of Jesus are PLAIN enough. Repentance AND Remission of sins was to be preached BEGINNING in Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). This came about when Peter PREACHED the great GOSPEL message on Pentecost (Acts chapter 2). Those who BELIEVED were told to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus FOR the Remission of their sins. (Acts 2:38). Those who OBEY THE GOSPEL will be saved. Those who REJECT the gospel will be destroyed. (2 Thes. 1:8).

read it for yourself wrote: "Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

Please look at verse 47-48 which PLAINLY states that Baptism is a COMMAND. There is NO mention that those of the household of Cornelius were saved PRIOR to their being baptized in water FOR the remission of their sins.

If the doctrine of "faith only" is correct, Peter should have asked "Can anyone give any reason why these Gentiles should not be allowed to believe (or accept Jesus as their Savior)?" Instead, Peter was PINPOINTING the EXACT moment a person becomes a Christian. He was saying that God's direct authentication of Gentile eligibility through Holy Spirit Baptism was sufficient PROOF that the Gentiles should be allowed to become converts. If the Gentiles were already Christians, why would Peter bring to a head the Gentile eligibility issue in terms of water baptism? Everything PRIOR to that point was drivint toward the conclusion that Gentiles COULD BECOME Christians and enter the church JUST as the Jews could. Notice that the PROOF came AFTER theif belief but BEFORE their baptism - PROOF POSITIVE that Water Baptism PRECEDES Salvation!!!

read it for yourself wrote: "Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

If they ONLY had to believe, then WHY did Paul and Silas have to SPEAK THE WORD OF THE LORD TO HIM and to ALL WHO WERE IN HIS HOUSE??? (Verse 32). Those who claim "faith only" are always INCONSISTENT on this point. Please notice that AFTER they "spoke the word of the Lord" to them, first he took them out and "washed their stripes" and THEN was BAPTIZED. (verse 33). There is NO mention of the Jailor or any of his family "rejoicing" until AFTER they were Baptized!!!

read it for yourself wrote: "It can be no clearer than this. If you believe you live if you don't you die."

It is OBVIOUS that "faith only" does NOT save for if this were the case, then even the demons would be saved for they "believe" in Jesus but they are NOT saved. (James 2:19).

Faith is DEAD until it ACTS. (James 2:20). The faith that SAVES referred to by Paul in the book of Romans, is a faith that OBEYS. (See Romans 1:5, 16:26). An OBEDIENT FAITH so the believer CANNOT have his faith reckoned to him for righteousness (See Romans 4:9), until his faith leads him to COMPLY with ALL of the pre-requisites for salvation INCLUDING Baptism. (See Hebrews 5:9).

pure logic wrote: "Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. A: Belief B: Baptism C: Salvation D: Damnation Most would agree D = NOT C. given A AND B => C NOT A => D so NOT (NOT A) => NOT D A => NOT D A => C Therefore the only thing needed for Salvation is Belief (which we know comes from God)."

There is NO logic involved in the above statement. If A = Belief and B = Baptism and C = Salvation and D = Condemnation, then Mark 16:16 PLAINLY states that A + B = C. In other words Belief (A) PLUS Baptism (B) = Salvation (C). That is EXACTLY what this verse teaches. If one does NOT Believe (A) they will NOT be Baptized (B) it is that simple. So there was NO need to ADD the Phrase "and be baptized will be condemned" because a lack of belief (one CANNOT be baptized unless they believe) will cause one to be condemned.

Pure logic FORGOT his math for A + B = C!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 19, 2003.


Kevin said, "My interpretation does NOT go against what is plainly stated in His word!!!"

Sure it DOES.

You go Strongly Against what is PLAINLY stated :

"For the bread that God gives is HE who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world" verse 33

"I am the bread of life." verse 35

"I am the bread of life." verse 48

"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If you eat this bread, you will live forever. The bread that I will give you is MY FLESH, which I give so that the world may live." verse 51

"I am telling you the truth, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood, you will not have life in yourselves. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them to life on the last day. FOR MY FLESH IS THE REAL FOOD; MY BLOOD IS THE REAL DRINK. THOSE WHO EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK MY BLOOD LIVE IN ME, AND I LIVE IN THEM." verse 53-56

"Whoever eats me will live because of me." verse 57

"Those who eat this bread will live forever." verse 58, John 6

Stop making pretzels and misinterpreting what is PLAINLY stated.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 19, 2003.


James really does NOT know what he is talking about.

God says in John 6:63, "IT IS THE SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE; THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING. The WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU ARE SPIRIT, and THEY ARE LIFE."

This puts to REST the FALSE NOTION that one has to LITERALLY EAT the "flesh" of Jesus in order to live.

If this were a COMMAND (and it is NOT), then Catholics would be GUILTY of DISOBEYING it anyway for they do NOT "drink the blood of Jesus".

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 19, 2003.


Spirit does NOT mean symbolic.

The Holy Spirit can manifest Himself Materially : Dove, Fire, Wind.

Kevin really does NOT know what he is talking about.

Kevin misinterpreted AGAIN the Most Holy Catholic Bible in John 6:63, "IT IS THE SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE; THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING. The WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU ARE SPIRIT, and THEY ARE LIFE."

This puts to REST the FALSE NOTION that John 6 is symbolic.

ALL Christians have been eating the Most Holy Eucharist for 2000 years.

Catholics obey the command of Jesus Christ by eating His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity present either in the consecrated Bread or consecrated wine, or both.

verse 55 Jesus says: My Flesh is REAL Food, and My Blood is REAL Drink. Kevin shouts at Jesus and says: Your Flesh is NOT REAL Food, and Your Blood is NOT REAL Drink.

Amateur interpreters of the Most Holy Catholic Bible like Kevin who sprouted recently are confused on when to interpret biblical text Literally and when to interpret biblical text symbolically. The Experts ~ St. Peter and His Apostles and the Most Holy Catholic Church correctly interpreted what came out from the Mouth of Christ and correctly determined which texts are Literal and which texts are symbolic ~ after all, the Most Holy Catholic Church wrote the Most Holy Bible. All the early christians break bread and celebrate the Most Holy Eucharist in obedience to Jesus Christ and His Gospel.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 19, 2003.


In John 6:63, LIFE IS DEFINITELY NOT SYMBOLIC ~ Jesus Literally Lived and is Literally still Living.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 19, 2003.


In John 6:63, LIFE IS DEFINITELY NOT SYMBOLIC ~ Jesus Literally Lived and is Literally still Living.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 19, 2003.


The Holy Spirit is not symbolic, but REAL.

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 19, 2003.


Did Jesus institute the Eucharist in John 6 as Roman Catholicism claims?

Some things to consider:

In John 6, we find the Jews continue to resist Jesus' claims of being divine. They challenge Him to prove who he is by bringing down manna from heaven as Moses had done. Jesus uses their reference to the manna, the food which was essential for their survival and life in the desert and applies it FIGURATIVELY to himself. He answers, "I am the bread of life." Jesus uses EATING in exchange TO REPRESENT BELIEVING. This is CONSISTENT all the way through his illustration.

The day before he fed 5,000 and proclaims that He can give "food which endures to eternal life."

Jn.6:26 Describes those that came after Jesus because their stomachs were filled. Jesus tells them not to labor for the food that perishes but for the food that endures to everlasting life... This resumes a dispute with the Jewish authorities about who Jesus is. They were already plotting to kill him, because he was "making Himself equal with God."

V.28-29 "What must we do to do the works of God?" Jesus answers: "This is the work of God. That you believe in Him whom He sent." They insist on a sign (today Catholics ask for the same thing except there is NO PROOF for theirs, they must take it by BLIND FAITH). V.31-33 The bread Moses gave was not the true bread, you don't eat it. "The bread of God is He Who comes down from Heaven, and gives life to the World." Did Jesus body come from heaven, or did God who is spirit come?

V.35 "I am that bread. He who believes in Me will never hunger or thirst." Notice He does NOT say "He who eats..." will not hunger or thirst. He is speaking to those who REJECT HIM as the source of eternal life. He uses bread as an ANALOGY to illustrate mankind's need to believe in him. Jesus never relates this to wine. The eating of Christ, who is "the living bread which came down from heaven" (6:51), is NO MORE A PHYSICAL ACT than the eating of "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God;" it was offering SPIRITUAL TRUTH to the people that DID NOT UNDERSTAND.

V.36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe." Notice He is pointing to Himself, that is present among them, and He scolds them for not believing. It is hard to believe what you don't understand.

V.41-42 The Jews wonder at His statement about coming down from Heaven. Thinking he is speaking of his body.

V. 47 "He who believes in Me has everlasting life." Here Jesus points to himself as the source, by believing not eating.

V.49 "the fathers ate the bread in the wilderness and they all died," in v.50 he then points to Himself as the solution for death.

V. 51 "I am the living bread which came from heaven." He is pointing to himself as the one who is God, that has eternal life to give. Notice He says in the present tense He is the bread. Jesus then predicts, "The bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh." The Catholic Church INTERPRETS this as a promise of the Eucharist.

Yet the context has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAST SUPPER or PHYSICAL BREAD.

He is going to give His flesh for the life of the world.

WHEN?

At the cross!!!

HOW MANY TIMES?

Once!!!!

Not over and over on the altars. (As Catholics FALSELY ASSERT).

Earlier, Jesus had identified himself as the bread of life. Now he says he will give the bread, that is himself, his own flesh, for the life of the world. Many other times near the end of his life he made similar predictions.

V. 52-53 "unless you are to eat His flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you." the Jews begin to argue with one another, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" Because of their antagonism for Jesus ,they not only rejected His teaching but LACKED DISCERNMENT TO UNDERSTAND when He was using AN ILLUSTRATION.

This is NOT to be mistaken for flesh of a WAFER coming from a bakery of mans hands nor grapes squeezed by men. It is his flesh and blood. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves." Rather than teach the necessity of receiving Holy Communion, it speaks of the NECESSITY OF FAITH IN CHRIST. If you do not trust in His payment for sin on the cross, you will NOT have eternal life in yourself.

V. 54 he says, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." Moments earlier he had said, "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Notice that the results are IDENTICAL in both verses: eternal life and resurrection. But although in the one we must eat and drink, in the other we behold and must believe. The results are IDENTICALLY THE SAME, as are the actions to obtain them are also: eating is a substitute for believing. His FIGURATIVE statements are EASILY UNDERSTOOD when read in the CONTEXT of the other verses in this teaching.

V.55, he states, "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink." To make this as a teaching that Christ is bodily present in the host is to CHANGE THE FOCUS interpreting it OUT OF CONTEXT. Here again, Jesus is emphasizing that He is the source of real spiritual life and nourishment.

V.57 "...so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me" Certainly Jesus is NOT speaking of a wafer that would be produced later but SYMBOLICALLY of Himself who is able to give life.

V.58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven -- Not as your fathers ate manna and died..." (He is NOT physical food but SPIRITUAL). Jesus had talked about the manna that fell in the wilderness which fed them physically and they died, but that He was the true bread who came from heaven that if they ate would never die. No one would say that all of Israel ate Christ for 40 years 1,500 years before he was born, nor is He saying that he would become a communion wafer later on and if this bread was to be taken they would never die.

He is explaining to partake of his sacrifice in a spiritual sense that would save the soul from separation, which had occurred 2,000 years ago.

V.63 "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing. The words I speak are Spirit, it is they that are life." Nothing could be CLEARER it is NOT literal but FIGURATIVE, He used a natural EXAMPLE to ILLUSTRATE A SPIRITUAL TRUTH. We have seen that "to eat" is "to believe," and that the giving of his flesh refers to his death on the cross. And so, "to eat his flesh" or "to drink his blood" would be to TRUST in the SACRIFICE OF HIS LIFE. It is to rely upon HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS as the PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS.

By the sacrifice of his life, Jesus became the Savior of the world, He is the source of eternal life NOT by the Eucharist. (as Catholics FALSELY teach). The savior is a person salvation is NOT a thing that was created, this is the intent of the discourse.

The idea of a wafer that becomes Jesus each time it is baked is REFUTED by none other than Jesus Himself. If we read further in v.57- 58 He states the bread is Himself, His body NOT a wafer baked in a bakery that will become Him. We must distinguish the difference between the SUBSTANCE (who He was) and the SYMBOL He uses to describe Himself by and the symbol taken afterwards (the communion that was the Passover).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 19, 2003.


Spirit and Life in verse 63 are both LITERAL and REAL.

It is amazing how Kevin's new protestantism tries to twist and turn a Truth that existed for 2000 years. Kevin continues to shout at Jesus: Your flesh is NOT real food and Your blood is NOT real drink. I can imagine Jesus in Heaven, Frowning at Kevin. (Not to mention Mary Frowning at Kevin, too.)

TESTIMONY OF A CATHOLIC REVERT REGARDING THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST :

One example of patristic evidence comes to us from St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Syria. Ignatius wrote to the church at Smyrna around 107 A.D., concerning those who held heretical opinions: "They abstain from Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father in his goodness raised up again."

There is no evidence that anyone contested the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist during the first thousand years of Church history. When so many heresies ran rampant, no one dared to challenge this core belief founded on the words of Christ in the sixth chapter of St. John's Gospel. ~ Joseph Ranalli



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 20, 2003.


I have not forgotten how to do simple math. Mark 16:16 does not say that A + B = C. It says, in effect, that A AND B implies C and the second part says that NOT B implies NOT C. If we take this along with the rest of the Bible it is clear that C does not imply A AND B. There is no evidence to suggest that any of the Old Testement saints mentioned in Hebrews 11 were baptized. There is no evidence to suggest that John the Baptist was baptized. The thief on the cross was never baptized. The verses that readitforyourself listed do not put a requirement of baptism on salvation. When Peter took the gospel to the gentiles they received the Holy Spirit before Peter and the men who were with him even considered baptizing them.

Yes, it is clear that baptism must follow belief. This means that infant baptism cannot be true baptism.

-- purelogic (purelogic@logic.com), November 20, 2003.


James gives the following quote: 'TESTIMONY OF A CATHOLIC REVERT REGARDING THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST :

One example of patristic evidence comes to us from St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Syria. Ignatius wrote to the church at Smyrna around 107 A.D., concerning those who held heretical opinions: "They abstain from Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father in his goodness raised up again."

There is no evidence that anyone contested the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist during the first thousand years of Church history. When so many heresies ran rampant, no one dared to challenge this core belief founded on the words of Christ in the sixth chapter of St. John's Gospel. ~ Joseph Ranalli '

If the quotation from Ignatius is accurate it disproves Joseph Ranalli's statement that "there is no evidence that anyone contested the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist during the first thousand years of Church history." Just by saying that there were people who refused to participate because they did not agree with the doctrine proves that there was opposition to the doctrine in 107. If the other side of the issue had written a statement it might have had a completely different slant.

-- Read it for Yourself (readitforyourself@godsway.com), November 20, 2003.


"If the quotation from Ignatius is accurate it disproves Joseph Ranalli's statement that "there is no evidence that anyone contested the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist during the first thousand years of Church history." Just by saying that there were people who refused to participate because they did not agree with the doctrine proves that there was opposition to the doctrine in 107. If the other side of the issue had written a statement it might have had a completely different slant."

Nice radical denominational way of contorting a catholic's testimony.

St. Ignatius is talking about heretics. Joseph Ranalli is talking about the early christians. None of the early christians dared to contest the Real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist even amidst so many heresies.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 20, 2003.


pure logic wrote, "I have not forgotten how to do simple math. Mark 16:16 does not say that A + B = C. It says, in effect, that A AND B implies C and the second part says that NOT B implies NOT C. If we take this along with the rest of the Bible it is clear that C does not imply A AND B."

Which bible do you have??? Mark 16:16 (In every bible that I am aware of) SPECIFICALLY states that "He who believes (A) AND (+) is baptized (B) WILL BE SAVED; (=C).

This MOST DEFINITELY says that BELIEF + BAPTISM = SALVATION. A + B = C.

There is NOTHING in the text of Mark 16:16 that "implies" faith = salvation then baptism as you FALSELY assert. The text PLAINLY says belief + baptism = salvation.

pure logic wrote, "There is no evidence to suggest that any of the Old Testement saints mentioned in Hebrews 11 were baptized."

The people in the OT were NOT subject to the command to be baptized because Jesus was not dead yet. The New Covenant came into effect AFTER Jesus death, burial and resurrection. Hebrews 9:17 states: "For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives."

pure logic wrote, "There is no evidence to suggest that John the Baptist was baptized. The thief on the cross was never baptized. The verses that readitforyourself listed do not put a requirement of baptism on salvation."

See Hebrews 9:17 answer above.

First, the thief was a Jew. He was one of God's chosen people under the Old Testament (Genesis 12:1-3; Deuteronomy 7:6-8). He was born into a covenant relationship with God. Therefore, he was already a child of God. But he was a child of God who had strayed into sin. He only needed to repent and he would be forgiven. The case of the thief is the same as that of several other Jews whose sins were forgiven by the Lord when He was on the earth (Mark 2:1-12; Luke 7:36-50; Luke 19:1-10). We today do not live under the Old Testament law. We live under the law of Christ. The Old Testament law was "nailed to the cross" (Colossians 2:14). This means that it ceased to be God's law to govern His people at the time Jesus died. "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law" (Hebrews 7:12). Paul wrote to the Galatians: "...the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor" (Galatians 3:24, 25). If anyone is saved today, it must be according to the conditions found in the New Testament.

Second, the thief was saved before the Great Commission was given. This was given by Jesus to His apostles shortly before He went back to Heaven. He commanded them to preach the gospel to the whole world, every nation, and every creature. Those who heard and believed the gospel, repented of their sins and were baptized, would be saved. Those who refused would be lost (Matthew 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16). The thief was not required to obey the terms of the Great Commission because he died before it was given. But you and I, and everyone today, must obey these terms if we want to be saved.

Third, in every case of conversion recorded in the book of Acts, people were required to obey the terms given in the Great Commission in order to be saved. In Acts 2, the Jews on Pentecost heard Peter preach the gospel. They were "cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?"' They were commanded to "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins..." (Acts 2:37, 38). Saul of Tarsus saw the Lord on the road to Damascus. He was told to go into the city and he would be told what he must do. He prayed and fasted for three days, but still was not saved (Acts 9:1-19). Ananias was sent to tell him to "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). All the conditions of salvation are implied, if not stated, in every example of conversion in the book of Acts. Baptism is mentioned specifically in most of them (Acts 8:12,13; 36-39; 9:18; 10:48; 16:15, 33,34; 18:8; 19:5). These are the examples of conversion which we must follow if we want to be saved today!

Fourth, it is possible that the thief had already been baptized. "John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins" (Mark 1:4,5). Jesus' disciples also baptized people (John 4:1,2). John's baptism was God's will for the people of Israel. Those who refused it "rejected the will of God for themselves..." (Luke 7:29,30). Since the thief appears to have had some knowledge of Jesus and His kingdom, it is quite possible that he had earlier heard and obeyed John's preaching, but later returned to his life of crime.

Fifth, no one can be saved today the way the thief was saved because no one is in the same situation the thief was in. He was in the physical presence of Jesus. He was able to speak with the Lord face to face. The Lord as the testator of His will had the right to do what He wished with His salvation while He lived, but once He died, the conditions of His will have to be met in order for one to be saved (Hebrew 9:16,17). Since Jesus has now died, the conditions of salvation given in His New Testament are required of all today who want to be saved.

pure logic wrote, "When Peter took the gospel to the gentiles they received the Holy Spirit before Peter and the men who were with him even considered baptizing them."

The reception of the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism by Cornelius had absolutely NOTHING to do with his salvation! Holy Spirit baptism was God's way of proving to the Jews that Gentiles were likewise fit candidates for salvation. The Gentile reception of the Holy Spirit not only PRECEDED their baptism, it PRECEDED their belief! For in Acts 11:15, Luke used very precise language when he stated, "And as I began to speak?" Peter was just beginning to preach the words which would tell them what to do to be saved but was interrupted by God baptizing the Gentiles in the Spirit. So at that point they had NOT YET heard the "words by which you and all your household will be saved" (11:14). They had NOT YET believed since faith comes by hearing God's words (Rom. 10:17). God had to put His stamp of approval upon Gentiles to demonstrate to the Jewish church that Gentiles had a right to hear the gospel as well. Only AFTER He did this could the Gentiles then proceed to hear the gospel and become Christians by responding with faith and baptism.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 20, 2003.


Kevin said,"This means that it ceased to be God's law to govern His people at the time Jesus died"

Wait, so what happened to people that died in the middle of Christ's death and Christ's resurrection. Were they under the Old or New Covenant?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.


Or when did the Old Covenant cease and the New Covenant begin?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

Are we to assume that the entire population of earth has fulfilled the first part of this command simply by being in existance? That's nonsense.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

The entire third chapter of the book of John, when studied with an open mind, open heart and allow the spirit of truth to guide you, you will realize that Jesus is being very specific in telling Nicodemus how one is born again. He states what type of second birth is required and how we obtain that second birth.

First, in John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus that we need to be “born again”. In other words, we need to experience a second birth. We have already been born once. We need to be born “again”, a second time, if we want to enter into the kingdom of God.

In John 3:4, Nicodemus is confused. How can Jesus be asking us to be born one more time. He goes ahead and asks Jesus if it is possible for man to enter into his mother’s womb and be born again. However, Nicodemus completely misunderstood. If you have ever studied the bible you will know that most of the times when Jesus talked about something he was referring to spiritual things and not physical. It is impossible for a human being to be born again of the flesh a second time. So, Jesus goes on to explain what he means in the next verse.

In John 3:5. Jesus tells Nicodemus that except one is “born of water “and” the "spirit” one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. (Pay close attention to the word “and”). This is the passage where most people stumble and are left guessing. However, if we pay close attention to the words of Jesus we see clearly what he is stating. Notice the word “Born”. Born means “birth”. In other words, Jesus is saying that unless we are born of water (water birth) AND spirit (spirit birth = second birth = born “again”)we can not enter into the Kingdom. You see, water is referring to a physical birth. Jesus then states that we need a second birth which is the spirit birth. The word “AND” makes a big difference. “And” is being used as a explicit and direct command. In other words, in this case, it is the same as saying “you must / no exceptions”. We MUST be born of the spirit and not just of water only but of the spirit as well. You see, this is why Jesus says we need to be born of water “and” the spirit. It is because being born of water alone is not sufficient enough to enter into the Kingdom. Why is that? Because Adam, in the Garden of Eden after his fall, died spiritually. The fellowship and bond between him and God was broken. The bible tells us that through one man (Adam) death entered the world and now through another man (Jesus Christ) life has entered into the world.(Ro:5:12-19). However, in order to receive or experience this new life we need to be born again, a second time, of the spirit and not of water and spirit but of the spirit, only, because we have already been born of water (water birth). (Through Adam, we are born physically but dead spiritually. Through Christ, we are born again spiritually)

In John 3:6 Jesus makes the distinction. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. In other words, that which is born of the water is water and that which born of the spirit is spirit. Here, in this verse, he clearly makes a distinction between the two births he talks about in John 3:5. Being born of water, the first birth and being born of the spirit, the second birth. How do we know that Jesus is asking that we need to be born of the spirit only and not of water and the spirit. Jesus, once again, makes it very clear in verse 8.

In John 3:8 Jesus states the following. We need to pay very close attention to this verse. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” Notice how Jesus in this verse completely omits and makes no reference of water. If water went hand in hand and was a part of the second birth or of being born again, we can rest assure that Jesus, because he is God and is perfect, would have mentioned “water” in this verse. He would have said, so is every one that is born of water and the spirit. But he doesn’t. He only states that we need to be born "of the spirit". He does not mention water because the water birth or being born of water has already taken place. Now, how we go about in experiencing that second birth, a spirit birth, is revealed starting in verse 14.

John 3:14 Again lets pay very close attention to this verse. “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up”. What is Jesus telling Nicodemus here? Notice the last part of this verse. Jesus is saying that he must be “lifted up”. In other words, he must be crucified. If you don’t already know why this must be, verse 15 will make it very clear.

In John 3:15 Jesus explains why he needs to be “lifted up”. Here is the answer: He must be lifted up or resurrected so.. “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” And then he goes on to say in the following verses:

Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh:3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You see, the new birth that we need in order to enter into the kingdom of God is a Spirit birth only and we experience that second birth (being born again) upon believing and placing our faith and trust in Him, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Peter also knew that this was the way one is born again and John also mentions this new birth in 1John 5: These passages corroborate, substantiate, confirm and backs up everything Jesus explained in John chapter 3.

1Pe:1:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible (ie: spirit birth or born of the spirit, born again), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (Word of God is the Gospel which consists of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.)

Notice that Peter states very clearly that we are born by the “word of God”. No mention of “water and the spirit”.

1Jo:5:1: “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God”...

John confirms the claims made by Jesus in Chapter 3. That “whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God”. In other words, you are born of the spirit or born again by believing in Jesus Christ. We become children of God because we are born of the spirit.

Jesus was not only born of the flesh but of the spirit also. He was born of Mary (human being / flesh) and of the Spirit (Holy Spirit). (However, he was born without the seed of a natural man. This is why he was born without the curse of the sin committed in the Garden of Eden). So must we, also, be born again of the spirit in order to enter the Kingdom of God and become a child of God just as Jesus is the son of God.(pg. 1541 Luke2:52)

( Ga:3:26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Ro:8:8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Ro:8:9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Ro:8:10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Ro:8:11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Ro:8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Ro:8:17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.)

Jesus said it, Peter confirmed it, John confirmed it and Paul the apostle confirms it in 1Cor 15, Romans ch: 4.

Not only did the apostles confirm it through their writings. God the Father proved it. How? By placing two thieves on each end of Jesus Christ in Calvary. Remember that Jesus, throughout his ministry, taught that all we needed in order to be saved was to believe in him, to have faith in him. What took place in Calvary was a very powerful act by God to prove his claims. One thief did not believe and what happened? He was condemned. The other thief believed in Christ and Jesus told him “today you shall be with me in paradise”. He was saved because he believed in the son of the living God. This was the sole purpose of having the two thieves next to him. To glorify God.

The same thing will happen to all those who place their faith, trust and love in Christ. Water has nothing to do with our being born again or receiving that second birth. It is the Spirit that needs to be born again. Why? Because it died in the Garden of Eden. Jesus came to restore our fellowship with the Father. But first, we need to be born again “of the Spirit”.

To believe that you can not be saved unless you are baptized or do any personal sacrifices of any kind in order to enter the Kingdom of God is to degrade the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. It is the same as adding to the word of God and to his simple plan of salvation. The pain, torture, suffering and torment that Jesus went through and the shedding of his pure, sinless and innocent blood is more than enough for us to obtain salvation. There is nothing that we can add to what he did in Calvary. Not our own sacrifices, not our own good works. Only our belief and faith in him, in his death and in his resurrection is more than enough to come unto God the father and become his children.(John 14:6; 1 Cor:15)

Here are several more verses that prove that belief is all we need. Baptism, good works and everything else comes as a result of our salvation.

Joh:7:38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Joh:7:39: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Study the above verse closely and accept the truth!!!

Eph:1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ro:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ro:5:10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1Co:1:18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Eph:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ti:3:6: Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Ti:3:7: That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1Co:1:21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Ga:3:22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Th:4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Jo:5:13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jo:5:10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jo:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Ga:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.



-- O. Roldan (ecrtz777@aol.com), August 05, 2004.


Or when did the Old Covenant cease and the New Covenant begin?

I'd say at the moment of Christ's death on the Cross.

-- jake (j@k.e), August 06, 2004.


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