Is gambling a sin?

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 19, 2003

Answers

Gambling to the extent that it interferes with one's essential responsibilities - financial, relationship, health, etc. is sinful, just like drinking to excess, eating to excess, spending money on other entertainment to excess, etc. Gambling itself is a morally neutral activity, just like drinking, eating, sleeping, playing, etc. But when carried to extremes it can produce harmful results which therefore make the act itself, in its extreme form, sinful.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 19, 2003.

Paul

You are correct, but one who has an intention to place a bet or play lotto, is doing so for money. Don't you think these people place some sort of security in money? Don't they feel that having just a little bit more money can get them more, or solve some problems, etc? And if somebody actually likes to play , let's say card, why do they have to play with money, unless they have a love for it?

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 19, 2003.

C.S.,

Doesn't someone who goes on skiing trips or family vacations or plays golf or owns a boat or collects antiques or sets up a home theater or has a swimming pool installed also take advantage of the fact that having just a little more money can get them more? In activities such as these (any of which could be carried to sinful extremes), there is an exchange of money for some sort of entertainment. In gambling, presumably, the source of enjoyment is the excitement of trying to win - not unlike sports competition - and the occasional thrill of an actual win. If that's all there is to it, I see no problem. But if someone is unable to provide for the needs of their family because of excessive spending on gambling, or antiques, or the monthly bills for the new Lexus, then there is a real problem.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 19, 2003.

Paul is right.

May I add -- The situation is compounded if a person is illegally betting. If a person intentionally breaks the law, this could in an of itself be a sin.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), July 19, 2003.

Very perceptive, John P.
Many people don't even consider whether or not their gambling is legal.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 19, 2003.

Yes, but the laws change in order to temper with society. We can not go by what a law demands; we must conform to a higher law. We must not have more than one master. The one master is God. When vices become our masters we are doomed. We must give in to the laws of the land, but we are not ruled by them.

Does that make any sense?

Rodrigo.. .. .. ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 19, 2003.

When the laws of the land are unjust and immoral, like the current laws protecting abortion, or the former laws protecting slavery, we may not submit to them, but must resist them totally. However, when a civil law is not specifically contrary to the law of God, like laws restricting gambling, then we must submit to them, rendering unto Ceasar that which is rightfully Caesar's - yet still never at the expense of failing to give to God that which is rightfully His.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 19, 2003.

Yes. But, how can we rely on laws when they are fickle? Laws are ruled by men in order to rule men.

I grew up watching families suffer as they sacrificed their sons to the Viet-Nam "engagement". It was the law of the land for young men to register for the draft and await their tours. It was the "right" thing to do and it was the "law". I expected the "engagement" to continue and I too watited for my number to come up. It was the "right" thing to do.

I see the same thing happening again. The soldiers who have died did they do the "right" thing? They followed the "law" of the land. Some things are wrong, yet we are committed to obey or suffer the consequences, which would also include our family's consequences.

I guess that it doesn't matter about the legallity of the law, so somehow, in giving Ceasar what is his -our sins (that is the price)- should also become Ceasar's sins. After all, it is Ceasar who makes the laws.

Rodrigo.. ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 20, 2003.

Would you bet a nickle on a horse race? Sure. Would you bet a dollar on a horse race? Sure. Would you bet a hundred dollars? Well, sure.

Would you bet ten thousand dollars? Hey, no! What do you take me for a gambler?!

Anything can eventually become sinful if it becomes our master.

Rodrigo.. .. .. .. ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 20, 2003.

We have a fellow at our parish who suffers from a mild form of schizophrenia. Samuel is his name. He is from Mexico and speaks with a heavy Latino accent. Often during Mass he will stand up in front of the congregation and ask Father Chris for the lotto numbers in Spanish!!! LOL!!

But seriously, the problem with gambling is that it is trying to win what somewhat else has earned. The Biblical way to gain wealth is through good old honest hard work.

Gail

P.S. Yes, it is a sin IF it controls your life, just like any other vice!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 20, 2003.

Gail

So playing any kind of game for money, is somewhat gambling? I do agree this is sin, because we are lusting for money, even though it is a small amount of money. Is it correct to say we don't trust God for not providing enough money, and we gamble to make more?

God does want us to work hard for our money.

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 20, 2003.

Anyone who gambles as a source of increased income will give it up pretty quickly. Most people who gamble, and who are not addicted to it, do so for entertainment, and are willing to spend a certain amount of money on that form of entertainment, just as people do on any other form of entertainment.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 20, 2003.

Or perhaps gambles because they have a sick child and no insurance.

CS, There are all kinds of reasons why a person would gamble. If they gamble for selfish reasons, which probably is the reason most gamble, that would be sinful. But there are other reasons why a person would gamble which may not be self-centered, but centered on the welfare of someone else.

40,000 Mexican children die PER YEAR in Mexico. If I won the lotto and gave the money to these poor children, I doubt that would be considered sinful, but rather prudent, generous and loving.

Gail

P.S. BTW, I think I have bought maybe 2 lotto tickets in my whole life, and I can say most certainly my motive was not pure.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 20, 2003.

Not too long ago there was a news story about some religious organization - maybe the Salvation Army, I'm not sure - who refused to accept a very large donation (6 figures as I recall), because the donor had won the money in a lottery. I guess that's living by your values, even if slightly misguided values by my criteria.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 20, 2003.

If you really think about it we are always gambling. We believe in God. This is a gamble. Just think of Pascal's Wager.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), July 21, 2003.

Well, if I decide to go back to a catholic church I would have to search very diligently because almost all of them in my neighborhood have "BINGO" nights and I get really disturbed to be part of that organization. BINGO for cash prizes definitely offends me and in my oppinion is a rebellious act. Anybody know of a good Catholic Church in Brooklyn area? Preferably without BINGO activities.

Thanks and God Bless!

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 21, 2003.

C.S.-

I knew you were headed that way from the very beginning. So, are you opposed to all church fund raisers, too? That chicken dinner is just another way of separating you from your cash; they are using food to intize the deal. What about those "Autumn Festivals" sponsored by a church? Church flea markets? Hey, what about that collection plate?

Rodrigo.. .. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2003.

I gambled on a chicken dinner and lost. It was supposed to have been Bar-B-Que chicken, but it didn't taste that way and was probably thrown in the oven for a few minutes. It wasn't fully cooked. But, what can we do? It is for a good cause.

Rodrigo.. ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2003.

CS, May the Lord direct your path to the right parish for you! But listen, don't get too hung up on your pet peeves. There are always going to be things that others do that's against your conscience. I still have a hang up on beer drinking! From where I come from, a Christians simply DOES NOT DRINK . . . PERIOD!

Is that why you started this thread? Is that the stumbling block keeping you from returning to the Catholic Church?

Lots of Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 21, 2003.

You've never bought a raffle ticket for the parish fundraiser or some other charity function?

To me "gambling" indicates that you have some idea of how your skills (such as card playing) can affect an outcome, or that you have some knowlege of how something will turn out (like you've followed the horses for years and know bloodlines inside and out), so that influences how you bet.

On the other hand, raffles and lotto are games of chance anyone can win.

Moderation in everything--the occasional lotto ticket is no worse than spending money on other forms of entertainment such as pinball games, or those "pick the toy up with the mini-crane" games.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), July 21, 2003.

Rod

I am not against fund raising. But Playing for cash prizes sets a bad example. Some people are weak and gambling is a disease. So why would the church cause temptation? It does seem innocent, but we should examine this in the eyes of God. I do not see anything God glorifying with BINGO. I feel there could be many other ways to raise money.

I am God fearing, and I like to be careful when I need to make certain decisions, that's all. I brought up this question because I needed to hear how the church views gambling. Was I wrong for doing this?

Peace....

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 21, 2003.

Why would playing for cash prizes be any different from buying raffle tickets for non-cash prizes that were purchased with cash? Or, which were donated in lieu of cash?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 21, 2003.

Hi CS,

Initially, you write:

"Is gambling a sin?"

Then you write:

"I brought up this question because I needed to hear how the church views gambling. Was I wrong for doing this?"

I think this is a good question for you to ask. Personally, I think it would have been interesting to hear you share your own view at the beginning of the thread.

Anyway, a good place to begin with Catholic teaching is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Here is Paragraph 2413 talking about gambling.

"Games of chance (card games, etc.) or wagers are not in themselves contrary to justice. They become morally unacceptable when they deprive someone of what is necessary to provide for his needs and those of others. The passion for gambling risks becoming an enslavement. Unfair wagers and cheating at games constitute grave matter, unless the damage inflicted is so slight that the one who suffers it cannot reasonably consider it significant."

Also, the Catholic Encyclopedia provides this information on Church teaching related to Gambling.

God bless you,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 21, 2003.

Just remember CS that you shouldn't through the baby out with the bath. Just because some people get addicted to gambling doesn't mean that gambling is bad. Now if everyone got addicted or most people got addicted, like people do to drugs, than gambling would be a problem. You must ask yourself though. Is bingo a game that people easily get addicted too? Probably not. It is when gambling rules one's life that it is a problem. And I can't imagen bingo ruling someone's life. And if someone starts to have an addiction to something that is when you step in as a true Christian and/or friend and say something to them. But just because someone does something on occation doesn't mean that it is an addiction.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.

Jmj

Hi, Scott.
I hate to have surprise you, but bingo can definitely be addictive. Many years ago, I knew a delightful woman (wife and mother of two, in a middle-class family) who was addicted. She would go out to parishes, etc., three or more times per week, and would play many cards simultaneously. I think that she would have played every night, if she could have found enough games. Fortunately, her habit never seriously damaged her family financially.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.

John is right. Lotto ticket buying (when we all *know* that money raised goes to education--NOT!) can be just as bad as bingo. $100 a week on tickets is $400 a month, which in many places is rent or even a mortgage payment.

At least bingo at charities is doing some good in your local community, unlike spending the same amount of money at "Lost Wages" or on cigarettes (where you're not only out the money, but ruining your health as well).

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), July 22, 2003.

C.S. are you converting? Wow you guys must have convinced him, he seemed unconvertable.

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 22, 2003.

Mike

I do not give myself a title. I consider myself a true born again believer in Christ. God has made me a new creature and I do not take any credit for it. Now If I see unfaithfulness or sinful acts being conducted in any church, if it's catholic or any denomination, I will stay out of it. I Love the Lord with all my heart and when I read the Bible I approach it with fear and trembling.

If I could find a catholic church which doesn't has BINGO activities I may want to go in and "test the waters". But I know in my area every catholic church that I have pasted up, has BINGO nights. I lose all respect to those churches. Why? Because tempting people to sin is totaly ungodly.

I am ashamed in some of the responses I heard in this tread. It is like telling somebody, you can take just a little crack, as long as you don't over do it or become addicted to it. I have a friend who is addicted to BINGO and that is probably the only time she steps into a catholic church. It makes me sad!!!!

If God was to bless a church financially, He would not do it through gambling. You might get mad at me for saying these things but I still listen to the BIBLE.

Peace!

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 24, 2003.

Ours doesn't have bingo, and many others I've attended don't either. Might be a size of the parish issue, might be the personal decision on the pastor's part. Might also be because there are too many Indian Casinos that have more games.

Where our friends used to live, there was a bingo hall that was sort of community run--all for non-profit organizations. It cost $250 per year to be in the high school band, you (well, your parents) could either pay it or work it off in the bingo hall.

Gee, do you think it is sinning to bet a steak dinner on the outcome of a sporting event too?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), July 24, 2003.

Gee C.S.,

I can't remember where in the BIBLE it says "Thou shalt not gamble". Could you direct me to that verse? Would it be permissible for a Church to have a bake sale, knowing that some people may spend more than they can really afford, and worse, knowing that some people have food addictions?? It is ok to have a parish outing at the beach, knowing that bathing suits might be a source of temptation for some people?? After all, tempting people to sin is totally ungodly!

Yes it is - if that is your intended purpose! But running a morally neutral activity like a bingo or a bake sale or a dinner dance or a beach outing is perfectly acceptable, even though some individual people might have personal problems related to some aspect of the activity. the only way you could be sure of avoiding such situations would be to offer nothing at all.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 24, 2003.

CS writes:

"Now If I see unfaithfulness or sinful acts being conducted in any church, if it's catholic or any denomination, I will stay out of it. I Love the Lord with all my heart and when I read the Bible I approach it with fear and trembling."

CS, reading the Holy Bible, I cannot find a direct statement condemning all gambling as sin. Once again, it seems you are making your own opinions regarding sin more important than what the scriptures state.

A particular protestant line of argument (here's the link) seems to paint all gambling--even investments in the stock market--as sinful actions. It begins in the Gospel by quoting the soldiers who cast lots for his garments--because the soldiers are bad, casting lots must be bad. OK...but then it's OK for the apostles at the beginning of Acts to choose Mathias by lots. At this point, the argument changes to something like, "Casting lots isn't OK unless a priestly person does the casting." Well, anyway, the argumentation is somewhat questionable. It's a little like the argument against all alcohol (as if the wine at Cana was just grape juice) and the fundamentalist belief that all dancing outside of worship is sinful.

These behaviors (casting lots, alcohol, and dancing) were most probably integral parts of secular society back then, just as they are now. There is nothing wrong with any one of them in moderation-- 2000 years ago and today. But, in excess, they can lead to addiction and sin. Addiction to gambling, alcoholism, and lust (respectively). One could take the same line of reasoning to condemn eating as sinful because one could become gluttonous.

I really don't mean to be "pro-gambling." I seldom gamble--unless your view of gambling includes purchasing and selling stocks/funds. I've been to Atlantic City and Las Vegas, and lost around $60 total. My personal experience, coupled with classes in probability, have given me enough reasons to avoid too much betting. There's a reason that hotels with casinos look so nice--it's because on average, the house always wins! Most people without gambling addictions know this.

In these times when so many are tempted into one addiction or another, we face too many gambling addicts, drug addicts, food addicts, sex addicts, Internet addicts ;^), etc, etc, etc...

Where I live, people who want to play bingo don't usually go to church. The only place I've seen big bingo nights are at the local volunteer fire departments...must be Catholic firefighters!

You write:

"I have a friend who is addicted to BINGO and that is probably the only time she steps into a catholic church. It makes me sad!!!!"

That should make us all sad, because your friend is missing out on the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass at that church, offered freely! She wouldn't have to bet anything...heck, she wouldn't even have to drop money in a collection plate!

You also write:

"If God was to bless a church financially, He would not do it through gambling. You might get mad at me for saying these things but I still listen to the BIBLE."

You asked (and we've answered) what the Church teaches regarding gambling. You seem to have the view that all gambling is sinful. You write that you "listen to the Bible." But I haven't seen you make the connection between your claim (all gambling is sinful) and a quote from the Bible. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to understand your position. What parts of Holy Scripture do you think are most relevant to discussing gambling?

Now, if you point to the great Saint Augustine (who wrote that the devil invented gambling), then I'd have to say that your identifying with the Doctors of the Church is a good thing, because you are relying on Sacred Tradition to make a point...a healthy thing to do for a Catholic!

God bless you,

Mateo

PS -- Here's another point of view from a local priest.

PPS-- I wrote this before seeing Paul's response which makes some of the same points. I promise I wasn't "copying" him! :-)

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 24, 2003.

Just for reference:

"Dice, cards, and the like games of hazard, are not merely dangerous amusements, like dancing, but they are plainly bad and harmful, and therefore they are forbidden by the civil as by the ecclesiastical law." --St. Francis in Introduction to a Devout Life

When I think of games of hazard, hangliding and parachuting come to mind. But that's just me.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 25, 2003.

C.S.:

Usually, if non-Catholics want to join a Catholic Church, they go through a program called RCIA first, so that they can figure out what it's all about before they take the leap.

Technically, you wouldn't need it, since you were baptised a Catholic. (?) But it might be a good idea to check it out anyway before you "test the waters".

There are 200+ Catholic churches in Brooklyn. There's gotta be one with no Bingo.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 25, 2003.

... or actually, maybe not. :-)

Check this out on Bingo in NYC churches

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 25, 2003.

Stephen, that was an interesting link!

Maybe the non-smoking issue is important--I know out on the Left (west, lol) coast most everything has gone non-smoking. Most of the bingo out here that we've seen are from the old-time service groups, and like I mentioned, there is a lot of competition from the Indian gaming (better, more games, entertainment, sort of (though I love Bowzer from Sha Na Na, he is not on the regular concert circuit these days), reasonably priced lodging or places to park your RV, etc), not to mention even the non-profit Bingo halls are very strictly regulated as to hours of operation, and so forth.

I see Bingo, raffles, bake sales, etc. as a way to get people to part with money for charity (church and others) that they wouldn't part with otherwise....

Sure, I think most people would like an honest approach to fundraising (we need this much money for this purpose and this is why we need it), but you almost never see it these days.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), July 25, 2003.

Stephen

I do not belong to any church but my childhood days I have been a catholic and recieved the 7 sacraments including marriage. I have done all that. So if you consider me a catholic then you can, but I do not give myself a title. I am a born again true believer saved by the grace of God.

I will not be part of any church with a sinfull nature. Lusting for money is a sin. The love of money is idolatry. The only reason people gamble is because they want more! What God gives them is not enough. Gambling is a disease of the unsaved. If a church participates in BINGO, then they are tempting the gamblers. Get my point?

You can deny it but I love my Lord and I will be faithful to His commands. If I didn't have much money I would rather get a newspaper route and bust my hump than gamble. If you call BINGO a fund raiser then why does the church give cash prizes. Give out Bibles as prizes. Then you will see not one person playing. If people did love their church then they would give a portion of their income before they spend it on them selves!

God Bless

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 25, 2003.

Hi CS,

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how you feel about church fundraising dinners, where folks come in and gorge on fried chicken, pie, mashed potatoes and home made pie? Isn't that the sin of gluttony which is named in the N.T. as a BIG NO-NO?

Something to think about,

Gail

P.S. I'm sure there is a Parish for you. We are all praying that the Lord lead you to the right one.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 25, 2003.

C.S.,

Let me get this straight - it's ok to put down hard cash for a church dinner, a talent show, a bake sale, or any other fundraiser for a worthwhile cause, as long as you know for certain that you will be getting something in return for your money ... but it is immoral to put down some money on a fundraiser where there is only a chance that you might get something back? Sorry, I don't see the logic. Or the moral issue.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 25, 2003.

This whole debate kind of reminds me of this anecdote in Paul Johnson's "A Quest for God".

I once stayed in a remote Scottish Highlands community called Applecross, on the far side of a a huge range of high mountains on the West Coast of Scotland. It is accessible only by sea or a perilous mountain road, and the form of Presbyterianism practised there is ultra-austere. Even in this small community there are different divisions of the Calvinist Church, and separate chapels, and each year when Easter approaches, the only time at which Communion is taken, the elders of the most austere chapel decide which of the congregation is worthy to receive it there. If judged unworthy, a man or woman must then retreat to the next most austere chapel, and attend and take Communion there. I asked what happened if a sinner gradually dropped through all the grades and was finally found unworthy to take Communion even in the fifth and lowest. My informant scratched his head and eventually answered: 'I suppose there would be nothing but for him to become a 'Roman Caathlic'

:-)

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 25, 2003.

Paul

WOW, I learn more and more about how Catholics view many issues of the faith. Paul it is ok, you can believe gambling is ok. Just pray that you are correct because you are telling millions of people that playing for cash is ok as long as you control it! Do you fear God my brother?

This doesn't have to becaome another huge discussion. I thought I could find one little topic where we can agree upon. I guess we have to argue about everything in this forum. Why can't you ever admit when you are wrong? Defend God for once. Admit the church is not perfect in every aspect.

May God give you wisdom.

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 26, 2003.

I have been a catholic and recieved the 7 sacraments including marriage

umm.. the sacraments include ordination and the last rites?!

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 26, 2003.

Dear C.S.,

Bingo is not "an issue of the faith". That's right, playing for cash is perfectly acceptable as long as it is not carried to excess, and causes harm to no-one. And all the more so if it actually benefits some good cause. I notice you danced your way around my last post, and never actually addressed it. Maybe you could read it again, and let us know whether the position I described there is your position or not.

You are providing one valuable service to this forum. You are demonstrating the inevitable departure from truth which befalls anyone who separates himself from the Church, which is the Biblical foundation of truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 26, 2003.

CS writes:

"Why can't you ever admit when you are wrong? Defend God for once. Admit the church is not perfect in every aspect."

CS, you seem to have a difficult time separating your opinions from God's Truth. You have made yourself your own pope, complete with your own un-Biblical views. Paul and I merely follow the teachings of Christ's Church (we don't make stuff up).

I asked you a simple question: provide Biblical proof that all gambling is sinful. Give me a quote. Don't assume you can judge every motive of every person who places a bet or buys/sells a stock.

If you really want to live the Christian life, I will quote Our Lord:

Luke 18:22 - "And when Jesus heard it, he said to him, 'One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.'" [Feel free to read it in context of the entire chapter]

So, have you sold everything you own? If you read the entire passage, having money/riches is not inherently sinful. Even wanting money is not sinful. Money (believe it or not) can be used to build up the kingdom of God--it is a tool.

Your belief that you personally speak for God is laughable. When you've found a church where everyone has taken a vow of poverty, let me know. The only people I know who leave behind money are Catholic priests, religious, and sometimes hippies stuck in the seventies.

One correction for you: you stated that you received the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church. Which seven did you receive?

May God lead you back to His Church,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 26, 2003.

Paul

You said" Let me get this straight - it's ok to put down hard cash for a church dinner, a talent show, a bake sale, or any other fundraiser for a worthwhile cause, as long as you know for certain that you will be getting something in return for your money ... but it is immoral to put down some money on a fundraiser where there is only a chance that you might get something back? Sorry, I don't see the logic. Or the moral issue. "

Cash for dinner is no comparison to playing for money. BINGO attracts and will probably create gammblers. (this just my opinion) Will people still play BINGO if the prizes weren't CASH? Isn't it for charity? Does you church have BINGO? Give out BIBLES as prizes instead. Do you think you will still have the same people playing?

Let me see what I could find in the Scriptures:

The Bible doesn't say you are not to play Poker, that you are not to play BINGO, you are not to play Canasta, and so on. The Bible just doesn't put it that way. The more I study the Bible, however, I find that in the Bible casting the lot was a very sacred event.

Now casting the lot means to pull straws to see who gets the shortest straw, or it means to throw dice to see if a certain number would come up, or to spin an arrow. All of these things were casting the lot. We have no control over what is going to come up. And in the Bible casting the lot was a sacred event that, when employed rightly, was to determine what God's will was in the matter.

For example, when the nation of Israel was being divided in the land of Israel, we read in the Book of Joshua that the lot was cast. By casting the lot God's will was determined. When a replacement was required for Judas, after he had committed suicide, two men were found that were qualified and the lot was cast to discover God's will, which one would God pick out? Now that's a very sacred and rightful use of casting the lot.

However, when we cast the lot to decide who is going to put the cup of coffee (we flip a coin), or when we cast the lot in games, even games like Rook and these other seemingly innocent games, I really believe that we are going contrary to the will of God. Now I know many will say, "Wow, that's really getting pretty picky."

But as we go along in life, and we want to live more and more close to the Lord, we want to do it God's way more and more, and we must remember that games, most of the games were not designed by Christians who earnestly love the Lord and who had thoroughly studied the Bible.

They are designed by the world. Now the child of God is a stranger and a pilgrim here on this earth. The child of God is just passing through. He's living as an ambassador of Christ, representing the Kingdom of Heaven. His focal point, however, is not on this earth. He fully realizes, or should fully realize, if he studies the Bible, that this earth is doomed. This earth is going to be destroyed by fire on the last day.

Now there are games that are simply games of skill, that have nothing to do with casting the lot (chess or checkers, or Chinese checkers, or some of these games), and they would be perfectly valid as long as we do not spend so much time with them that we waste our time. I have said previously that a friend of my is now hooked on BINGO. She has no concern about donations, she wants to win BIG!

The church is suppose to represent CHRIST and set an example to the people. Mathew 21:12 "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the HOUSE OF PRAYER; but ye have made it a den of thieves. "

Peace!

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 27, 2003.

Mateo

If you got "ears to hear and eyes to see".....

You said:

Q: "So, have you sold everything you own? If you read the entire passage, having money/riches is not inherently sinful. Even wanting money is not sinful. Money (believe it or not) can be used to build up the kingdom of God--it is a tool."

Christ is effectively saying, "Make your possessions available to the spiritually poor." He's not talking about the physically poor. He's talking about the spiritually poor, because these are the ones to whom we bring the Gospel. We are stewards of God, ambassadors of God, to get the Gospel out. And we are to make everything that we have as available as possible to bring the Gospel.

And so there is this physical sense, therefore, that we must understand when Christ replied to the rich young ruler that he was to sell his possessions and give to the poor. He was to make himself a disciple of Christ by this obedience, that is, by placing his trust in Christ. And he was to make himself totally available, that all that he had might be ready to be of service to God in bringing the Gospel to others.

But there was another sense that God had in view here. "Sell all that you have and give to the poor, and come and follow Me." In other words, your riches are not going to get you into Heaven, your rich deeds, your good works. That isn't going to get you anywhere, except to hell. You strip yourself of all of this. You come as a spiritually bankrupt sinner before God. None of these good works are meaningful at all.

Christ did not come to call the righteous, that is, the self- righteous. He came to call sinners to repentance. And when you have become spiritually stripped of anything that you think is good or worthy, then you're going to be ready to follow Me. Then you're going to be ready to understand the salvation which I have to offer.

Now if we're going to he born again, we must be ready to obey Him. We must count the cost of discipleship. The cost of discipleship means that we have to turn our back on the world. Our security no longer is in the things of this world. Our security is no longer in the pursuit of pleasure and all of these things that are so attractive to unsaved men. Our security is going to be in Christ. We're going to find that we're to live as strangers and pilgrims here. We're just passing through.

But we also are going to find that we have a real task, a real mandate. We are to be stewards of all that Christ has given us, so that we might share that Gospel with others to the very highest possible degree.

And if we're not ready to face this kind of life, it means that we're not ready to belong to Christ. We have not really understood what it means to call upon God for mercy and to repent of our sins and trust in Christ only. AND this my friend, Christ did intervien in my life and made me a new creature. I give myself daily to Christ as a living sacrafice. I struggle to do everything for the Glory of God!

"Q: One correction for you: you stated that you received the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church. Which seven did you receive? "

Baptism, communion, confirmation, marriage, ... oh are there seven? Whatever they are I did the whole man made salvation program designed by the church. Why do we do all these? To get right by God so we can go to heaven?

God does all the work in saving somebody, It is HE who chooses to save whomever He pleases to save. None of us deserve salvation, we are all guilty before God and are filthy sinners who desrvre eternal hell, including myself! I do not cease to thank my saviour everyday for this incredible gift of eternal LIFE.

P.S. If you guys think I am still catholic then that gives me authority to say all these, according to you rules.

God Bless

-- C.S. (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 27, 2003.

CS, the seven sacraments are specific means by which God pours out His grace. Of course, God pours out many graces upon us all the time as well, but the Church recognizes these seven specific graces. We don't "earn" salvation, but we receive sanctifying grace by which we are being justified -- ALL of this is THROUGH AND BY CHRIST's atonement of course!

Secondly, just because you are now calling yourself [c]atholic does not give you authority to teach whatsoever you desire. You know it doesn't work like that!!!

Thirdly, it is not money that is evil, it is the "love of money" or lust for more and more and more that is sin.

God Bless,

P.S. CS, you would probably really enjoy reading the biography of St. Francis of Assisi, whose order was established on the premise of "Wedding Lady Poverty," and who converted from a spoiled rich playboy to a "pauper for Christ."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 27, 2003.

CS writes:

"If you got 'ears to hear and eyes to see'....."

First, CS, I'm sure that you think I'm lost because I'm a faithful Catholic. Just the same, I believe you're lost because you've invented your own religion and claim yourself as the sole authority on interpreting the Bible and the message of the Gospel.

You write:

"Christ is effectively saying..."

CS, are you the one true interpreter of the Gospel of Our Lord, now? It's pretty silly that the Gospel message is now turning into pure metaphor for you. You seem to be the exact opposite of a Bible literalist.

Anyway, you are not an authority on interpretation of the Bible--you yourself have admitted this. You argued that using annointed oil was wrong (because you are "able to detect false teachings"), despite the fact that annointed oil is licitly used in the Bible. Now, you want to label all gambling as sinful. You claim that all gamblers lust after money; but you cannot read the hearts of men!!! Do you understand this, you do not know their intent! I've given $20 to a church raffle. I was not sinning. I did not lust after the prize money. I could care less about the prize money. Earth to

CS: "Are you getting this?"

You are inventing man-made doctrines (or following the ideas of some other misled soul), and deviating from the only Church that--guided by the Holy Spirit--has the authority to speak on these issues.

You write:

"Christ is effectively saying, "Make your possessions available to the spiritually poor." He's not talking about the physically poor."

OK, look CS. Of course Our Lord has spoken of the spiritual poor; but His statements certainly can be taken literally here. We're talking money. We give up our worldly riches, and Our Lord will reward us with spiritual riches. Give up worldly riches, get spiritual riches. OK? Our Lords statement is quite clear, without your "interpretation" to confuse the issue.

I do find it humorous that you are convinced that gambling with money is to be taken literally (as in "worldly riches"), while giving up money is supposed to be a metaphor for "spiritual riches" and not taken literally.

You write:

"Baptism, communion, confirmation, marriage, ... oh are there seven? Whatever they are I did the whole man made salvation program designed by the church."

Your knowledge of the Catholic Church is about as faulty as your knowledge of the Holy Bible. As others have pointed out, you have no clue what the sacraments are. I guess you didn't know that you haven't been ordained as a Catholic priest, and you haven't received the Annointing of the Sick? Though your protestant propoganda sources may claim the Catholic faith is "man-made," so far it is your own "religion" which has repeatedly been shown to be man-made. CS, I beg you to stop think you are the teacher here. We would be happy to explain the Catholic faith to you and show it to be the true Biblical Church.

You write:

"If you guys think I am still catholic then that gives me authority to say all these, according to you[r] rules."

This statement doesn't make sense. You should re-read the forum rules. Non-Catholics (including you) are welcome to ask questions about the Catholic faith. Try to proselytize your false religion, and you will be breaking the rules of the forum.

You write:

"God does all the work...blah, blah, blah..."

Totally off the subject. Right?

"The cost of discipleship means that we have to turn our back on the world."

So, I'll ask again: have you sold everything you own?

Quoting the Gospel of St. Mark:

Mark 10:21,22 -- "Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, 'You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.' At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions."

CS, the issue is this: you may have "ears to hear;" but, you are selectively listening. You cry out, "Bingo is sin!" because it's easy to try to point out the sins of others. But when the Gospel shows that you could be attached to money (because you haven't sold everything you own), then the "sin radar" is turned down, and you brush the passage off as a metaphor.

Quoting Our Lord in the Gospel of St. Matthew

Matthew 7:3-5 -- "Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."

Bingo is a speck. It's a speck. For whatever reason, some churches have fund raisers with bingo games and raffles. The fact that your friend is addicted to gambling does not prove that all gambling is evil. If that were proof enough, anything could be labeled evil.

Examples of other things that people paint with a broad brush:":

Is television evil? No. Many things broadcasted on television are evil, but television is not evil. Otherwise, even watching EWTN would be considered evil.

Is the Internet evil? Plenty of websites are evil. But, the Internet is not. Otherwise, reading the Bible on the Internet would be considered evil.

If I could guess, I suspect someone's been pumping anti-Catholic propoganda into you for a while. You're following a "Jesus" who you believe should conform to you, instead of the other way around. And this is a hallmark of protestantism. In pure protestantism, the Christ (savior) conforms to the will of the "believing" individual. In pure Catholicism, the believing individual conforms to the Will of the true Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.

May God bless you,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 27, 2003.

someone's been pumping anti-Catholic propoganda into you for a while.

Judging by CS's post on another thread, that someone would be Harold Camping of "Family Radio". He predicted that the world would end in 1994. Both it (and he) survived, but now he says that all churches have been taken over by Satan (Satin?).

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 28, 2003.

Are you sure it is Satin and not Polly Ester?

I couldn't resist.

Rodrigo. .. ... ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 28, 2003.

OK, Stephen, you're betting that the churches have been taken over by satin. Rod, you've got polyester. I'll pick cotton. Why don't we each bet $222, and when we find out, winner takes all, OK? Boy, what I would do with six hundred sixty-si...wait a second! EVIL! EVIL! AHHHHHHH!!!!!!

:-)

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 28, 2003.

Oh man, oh man, CS, are you really getting your theology from HAROLD CAMPING? That guy is a lunatic fringe!!!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 28, 2003.

Greetings to all:

I am not a Catholic, so I realize many may “protest” my posting a commentary here. I came across this website while doing a search on gambling. Although there are many Internet studies available that cover this topic, I find it interesting to also examine the opinions of people as expressed in a forum such as this one. Of course, on a Catholic website I know to also expect to run into some rather unfair generalizations made about non-Catholics, and none of them were more evident that the one made by Mateo in which he wrote, “In pure Protestantism, the Christ (savior) conforms to the will of the ‘believing’ individual. In pure Catholicism, the believing individual conforms to the Will of the true Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.’”

I might ask where Mateo came up with such an amazing revelation? Can he provide quotes from Protestants in which they have either said or written that Protestants make the Savior conform to their will? I know of no one who would make such a claim. Indeed, my own primary desire is to follow the example of the Messiah in every aspect of my life … NOT to make Him conform to MY will! I am very sorry that any Catholics would even THINK such a thing about Protestants, much less express it in written form. However, my desire here is not to start another “Catholics versus Protestants” argument, but rather to comment on the gambling issue.

First of all, I believe gambling is the actual issue here, not the person from whom C.S. is “getting his theology.” Often, when people have their belief systems challenged, they resort to base attempts to discredit the challenger, either by the friends he keeps, the books he reads, or something he may have done in the past. Anything to sidetrack the issue at hand. I believe the end result is an attack on the character of the challenger, and this is never appropriate. I would hope the moderator of this forum agrees that such forms of character defamation are inappropriate.

Next, I believe Gail came very close to “hitting the nail on the head” as to why gambling is morally wrong when she mentioned, “It is not money that is evil, it is the ‘love of money’ or lust for more and more and more that is sin.” I find it interesting that she did not proceed to make the connection that gambling is indeed based upon “the love of money” and the “lust for more and more and more.” As C.S. wisely pointed out, that is exactly why people gamble. If the prize should happen to be Bibles, the Bingo halls would be empty. We all know that, but we prefer to not rationalize that way because then we begin to run out of excuses that might appear to otherwise justify our desire to gamble. We would rather admit to anything other than a “love of money”!

A contributor to the forum named Paul expressed concern over the fact that there isn’t a Bible verse worded so as to say, “Thou shalt not gamble.” The absence of such a verse would appear to serve as his justification for gambling, or as he put it, “a morally neutral activity like bingo or a bake sale.” The Bible is also missing verses such as “Thou shalt not smoke.” Does this mean smoking is beneficial to our health? Surely, if smoking is harmful, the Bible would have warned us about it, right? Yet, we all know that there is a biblical principle whose thread is woven throughout Scripture and summed up by the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians 3:16-17 … namely, that our bodies are temples that should not be defiled. In the same way, the word “homosexual” does not appear in the Bible, either, and many homosexuals have capitalized upon this fact in order to justify their immoral lifestyles. Yet we know that there is a biblical thread interwoven throughout Scripture that condemns homosexuality.

Could there be a biblical principle against gambling, even though the expression “Thou shalt not gamble” is missing from Scripture? Yes, there is. As Gail pointed out, the sin is “the love of money.” This biblical principle is traced to the tenth commandment, which addresses an issue that, surprisingly, has been left unmentioned to this point in this forum: the issue of coveting. Coveting takes many forms, and yes, it can even start with a little speck. That is usually how the serious gambler got his or her start. They don’t usually start big, they start small. This is usually how the adversary wins his battles, I might add. He doesn’t come at us with the obvious. He tries to minimize or even cover up the obvious. The progression is very simple to follow. Can you follow the trail from the seemingly innocent cake raffle to the man who lost all his money betting on a horse he thought was a “sure bet”? Anyone ever wonder how such a compulsive gambler got his start? This, then, leads to another biblical principle that I believe we should all keep in mind: "Abstain from every appearance of evil" (I Thess. 5:22).

For those who would like a simple breakdown of the problem, I will give it a try: Coveting is a sin. Sin is the problem we are trying to avoid. The love of money is a symptom of the problem of coveting. Gambling is a symptom of the love of money. If this is an inaccurate representation of the facts, I invite anyone to help straighten me out.

By the way, I find it very interesting that, in a Catholic forum, Catholics quote great Catholics such as St. Francis and St. Augustine, who were both opponents of gambling, yet these contributors to the forum then proceed to defend the practice passionately. Has Catholicism evolved since the days of St. Francis and St. Augustine? Or were they simply misguided saints?

-- Larry Acheson (seekutruth@aol.com), December 13, 2003.

Dear Larry,
Aside from the lucid arguments you make here, what is it YOU base your opinion on? Let us know if you can, what makes you qualigied to teach anyone else. We're all versed in what the commandments are, and on the lives of the saints. Everything we believe is based on Catholic doctrine and/or tradition. You come here without these, I understand?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 13, 2003.

"By the way, I find it very interesting that, in a Catholic forum, Catholics quote great Catholics such as St. Francis and St. Augustine, who were both opponents of gambling, yet these contributors to the forum then proceed to defend the practice passionately. Has Catholicism evolved since the days of St. Francis and St. Augustine? Or were they simply misguided saints?"

I think that's a fair question, and I think if anyone is really honest and wants to do the right thing, they'd eventually take up sides with St. Augustine and St. Francis.

It only makes sense.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 14, 2003.

Uh ... could someone guide me to the writings of St. Francis and St. Augustine on gambling?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 14, 2003.

St. Francis talks about it in Introduction to a Devout Life.

I could post some of the quotes, and if they don't fit anyone's personal interpretations of what real Catholicism consists of, it's always within your power to delete them; especially if they hit too close to home.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 14, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Larry.

Although you realize that this is a Catholic forum, you apparently don't realize that the illegitimate, 16th-century principle known as "sola scriptura" is one that we reject. It was not and is not a part of the creed of the only church that Jesus founded, the Catholic Church. Therefore, we do not accept your private, unguided interpretation of any "proof-text" verse of the Bible as binding on us concerning the subject of gambling (or any other subject).

Instead, we turn to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (based on the two fonts of divine revelation, Scripture and Apostolic Tradition -- and recently written by the world's bishops in union with the pope). In the CCC, we find article #2413, which states:

"Games of chance (card games, etc.) or wagers are not in themselves contrary to justice. They become morally unacceptable when they deprive someone of what is necessary to provide for his needs and those of others. The passion for gambling risks becoming an enslavement. Unfair wagers and cheating at games constitute grave matter, unless the damage inflicted is so slight that the one who suffers it cannot reasonably consider it significant."

So we can turn to this CCC article for a reliable and clear guide to the morality of gambling. We don't need to try to dig up old and potentially misleading quotations from the past.

I was able to find a statement attributed to St. Augustine: "The devil invented gambling." I have no idea if he was joking or condemning each and every act of gambling. Regardless, he was one bishop, and his judgment does not override the Catechism.

St. Francis de Sales does have strong negative things to say against "gambling" -- but one reads his words carefully, one cannot help but realize that he is rejecting a clearly improper phenomenon of his own times (pre-1623) -- a serious, immoderate form of gambling -- not the casual, moderate form OK'd by the Catechism.

Someone may like to read an essay, "The Book on Gambling," by Leon Suprenant of Catholics United for the Faith -- here.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 14, 2003.