Is Hell empty ?

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I posted this link at the bottom of another thread that seems to be abandoned, so I'm starting this new one.

It's an article by Fr. Richard Neuhaus that presents an argument for "universalism" or the belief that hell may be empty. The article is here:

Will all be saved?

My questions:

  1. Is this consistent with
    1. scripture
    2. and
    3. tradition?
  2. Has the Pope endorsed a similar opinion?


-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 18, 2003

Answers

The article is the first in a collection of five on the linked page.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 18, 2003.

Is this consistent with scripture

No.

tradition?

No.

Has the Pope endorsed a similar opinion?

Not explicitly, to my knowledge.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), July 18, 2003.


From a webpage at Catholic.com , they quote the Pope:

"In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often 'preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell' (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, 'In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard' (pp. 185–6)."

God bless,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 19, 2003.


I think it was this 1999 address that led to some conjecture about the Pope's position. Here's a quote:
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.
Emphasis mine.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 19, 2003.

I interpret the "whether" in the quote you provided to refer to any individual human beings. We don't know "whether" Judas is in hell, for example.

Let's assume that I am wrong for a moment, though. Reading from the same website, Pope John Paul II is quoted stating:

"Christian faith teaches us that there are creatures who have already given a definitive 'no' to God; these are the spirits which rebelled against God and whom we call demons. They serve as a warning for human beings: eternal damnation remains a real possibility for us too."

If someone believed that it is possible that no human being in all of mankind's history is in hell, I don't know how one could simultaneously believe that eternal damnation could "remain a possibility for us."

God bless,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 19, 2003.



I recall the Pope saying that, Hell is a place, but he believes that it is empty. That flies in the face of past popes and tradition. It is a heretical statement

-- Bruce (Bruce@msn.com), July 19, 2003.

Bruce, you need to cite your source. Anyone can "recall" anything. If you cannot prove your accusation by a quote from a reputable source, your recalled memories mean absolutely nothing and are quite possibly slander.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 19, 2003.


Hell can't ever be empty. This is a preposterous suggestion, because we know God has sent the devil and his angels into hell for eternity. Not only that; we are constantly warned in scripture that hell will receive every unrepentent sinner for certain.

Christ even stated very openly, the ''rich man'' was in the flames of hell. From the abyss he implored Father Abraham to allow Lazarus to wet one finger, and to give him water to relieve his torments. That proved impossible. (Luke 16.)

Even assumed that Jesus was relating a fictitious incident (I do not think so at all), the premise He gave us is strictly and graphically presented. We must believe the words of Jesus Christ. We may entertain diverse insights on hell. But never a notion that it will somehow be empty.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 19, 2003.


Mateo, Eugene:

How would you interpret the Fatima prayer then? "... lead all souls to Heaven ... "? Doesn't this require the assumption that universal salvation (of humans) is possible?

And Mateo, a possibility does not rule out another possibility? It is possible that I may be saved. It is simultaneously possible that I may go to Hell.

Note: I myself do not share Fr. Neuhaus's belief. I am just interested in the extent to which it is consistent with Church teachings.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 19, 2003.


Perhaps the key word in "lead all souls to heaven" is not "all", but rather "lead". In order for all souls to be led to heaven it would be necessary not only that He lead all souls, which He has surely done, but also that all souls choose to follow Him, which clearly is not being done.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 19, 2003.


Paul: Wow, that has got to be absolutely right, thanks! I (and Fr. Neuhaus?) forgot about free will.

Which leaves the question... can one believe that it is possible for all humans to be saved, without falling into heresy?

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 19, 2003.


Stephen,
We can believe what we wish. Heresy is not believing something never defined, but teaching contrary to the Church and the Word of God. I have entertained wishes that my dog may be in heaven after he dies, and what are the possibilities. But it's pointless. God hasn't revealed that secret. He has definitely revealed what we know about hell. Some souls undoubtedly go there in the next life. Otherwise there is no justice. As to the prayer of Fatima, that's all it is, a prayer. Not a possibility to be believed. The phrase ''all souls'' is understood to mean all who persevere; not universal salvation.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 19, 2003.

The subject of free will is really the issue, isn't it? I mean, afterall, if a person rejects the will of God in his life, and wants nothing to do with Him, and rejects the moral law written upon his heart, then how is that God would then drag this immoral person into His presence kicking and screaming for all eternity? Would not God then be violating the principal of free will that He gives to man?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 20, 2003.


Hi Stephen,

You asked:

"And Mateo, a possibility does not rule out another possibility?"

You are correct. Still, I stand by my interpretation of the pope's statement as what he meant. It makes more sense. :-)

God bless,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 20, 2003.


CHILDREN:

I Know it may be the most difficult awareness in you entire life...but there is NO HELL...(and for that matter there is no heaven)other than that state within yourself. If you study the origin of the concept, how it came to be, you will be better able to fathom a deeper understanding and come to grips with living in the now, in this world. And living a valuable, loving and happy life.

Without the brain...there is no consciousness, no awareness of being. I know it is an extreme shock to leave behind your pre-historic belief system. I know it is painful to awaken to the fact that religion is man's coping mechanism and way of giving existence meaning.

But in time you will glorify the magnificence of life here and now, its sacredness, without the need to cling to it by inventing a Superior Being who thunders planets into existence and requires suffering, blood sacrifice and worship. Your narcissistic focus on humanity as the center of the universe, the plaything of this god you have created in order not to have to face death ....as a true ending of your consciousness, is understandable and maybe even necessary, but it is not reality.

Just like your ancestors who you find childish in their religious beliefs as they worshipped gods of various levels, performed rituals you look upon as ignorant, so too your children of the future with more knowledge and understanding of the universe will find your beliefs out- dated, unfounded and neandrathal in nature.

But there is no need to fear...life without heaven and hell, life without a god concept, is still beautiful and wonderful. The universe is all you need. Good luck.

-- Starlight (Reality@navajo.com), July 20, 2003.



No-one has any real understanding of life in this world until he conceives of it within the context of ultimate reality - God. Earthly life in ignorance of the creator of earthly life is an illusion. Such a life may be seemingly happy. Ignorance is bliss, after all. But it lacks any lasting value, for only life in God lasts more than a few years. Without the brain, there is no consciousness. Without knowledge of God, there is no meaningful knowledge, and people fall victim to a narcissistic focus on man as the center of the universe. Only by looking beyond the universe, to its origin and sustainer, can the universe, and our place in it, be appreciated in any meaningful way. The ungodly glorify the maginificence of life here and now, mere dust that will soon be scattered; but the knowledgeable glorify the One who is glory itself, Whose glory never fades. the godless run hither and thither, freezing their dead bodies, grasping at passing straws, fearful to face death, while those who know Him reach out at death to a greater reality, the only reality that endures.

Our ancestors were indeed ignorant, but not by fault. God had not yet revealed Himself to such primitive peoples. And yet, even they were aware of the logical necsssity for God. Now that the True God has revealed Himself to men, there is no longer such excuse for ignorance, and men are now held accountable. The truth has been revealed, to our ancestors, through them to us, through us to our children and our children's children, until the end of time. The universe may be all you need - for a few years. Beautiful and wonderful. Like walking through a flower garden toward the edge of a precipice. Then what? There is no need to fear, if you know the One Who is Love itself, for perfect love casts out fear. If you don't know Him, there is great reason for fear - yet ignorance of that reason. An eternally disastrous combination.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 20, 2003.


Hell is populated at least with 1/3 of all the angelic beings ever created (the dragon swept a third of the stars from the sky), and probably quite a good number of human beings too who died in war, strife, bloodshed as well as from ferocious beasts and natural disasters with sin on their mind, their wills focused on depravity, etc. How many there are...I for one don't want to find out!

-- Withheld (withheld@yahoo.com), July 25, 2003.

Mateo,

If Judas is not in hell, than where could he be?

Every man is a sinner and must acknowlede himself in order to be cleansed(1 Jn 1,9f). But this acknowledgement of unworthiness and confession with the lips have their value from repentance in the heart; and the confession of Judas is useless(Mt 27,4)

What did Jesus mean when He said, "It would of been better if this man (Judas) had never been born"?

-- - (David@excite.com), July 25, 2003.


Hello David,

I hope things are well with you and your family!

Here's a quick response:

You write:

"If Judas is not in hell, than where could he be?"

Well...there's only two places for him. :-) Anyway, my point really was to say that the Catholic Church has not made an infallible pronouncement with the answer to this question.

You write:

"...and the confession of Judas is useless."

Is this a Catholic teaching? Anyway, even if Judas "dodged this bullet" and was forgiven for betraying Our Lord, could he be forgiven for the additional mortal sin of killing himself?

Finally, you write:

"What did Jesus mean when He said, 'It would [have] been better if this man (Judas) had never been born?'"

Here's one of the Gospel quotes:

Matthew 26:24-25 -- "'The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.' Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, 'Surely it is not I, Rabbi?' He answered, 'You have said so.'"

From the notes of the New American Bible:

[24] "It would be better...born": the enormity of the deed is such that it would be better not to exist than to do it.

I'm not a scholar of scripture; but things don't look good for Judas...

--------------

Going back to the main topic, though. The literal answer of "Is Hell empty?" is easily found to be "no" because the fallen angels are there. But the question that seems to be on everyone's mind (is it devoid of fallen human souls?) is also "no."

People (not just angels) have been condemned to eternal punishment.

Jude 1:7 -- Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

O my Jesus! Forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell. And lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy!

God bless you all,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 26, 2003.


"If Judas is not in hell, than where could he be?"

Sacramento, CA

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 26, 2003.


Mateo, that verse from Jude would seem to clinch it. But then what about Jesus's threats to Chorazin and Bethsaida that they would fare worse than Sodom and Gomorrah on the last day? Chorazin and Bethsaida were still living, so still presumably had hope? Which means so did Sodom and Gomorrah at the time Jesus spoke?

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 26, 2003.

Hi Stephen,

Actually, the connection is between Capernaum and Sodom, right? At least in Matth ew 11:23. It seems relevant to mention that Our Lord is speaking of judgment on a community (a town), and not on individuals. The severity of judgment could refer to the number of condemned souls, or something similar (maybe the temperature of the eternal flames?) :-)

Did Capernium have hope since they were living at the time? Individuals may have repented; but Our Lord may have simply made a prophesy that many in Capernium would not repent. Prophesy doesn't take away free will. I can't make the connection that because individuals in Capernium could have repented, that this means that all those in Sodom could somehow be removed from "eternal" punishment. If this were the case, the punishment wouldn't be eternal. Jude's words seem pretty unambiguous.

In Luke 10, verses 11-12, Our Lord is speaking to the apostles about those who do not receive them in peace.

Anyway, there's plenty of meaning behind Our Lord's statements, He's alluding to Old Testament text, etc. Since I'm not a Scripture scholar, I'll just leave it at that.

OK, so we can agree that the Biblical view is that Hell isn't empty? Believe me...I don't want to go there to find out! :-)

God bless you,

Mateo

PS--You are correct Emerald, Judas is either in Heaven, Hell, or Sacramento. One of those three...

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 26, 2003.


Gay Davis seems to have sold California for 30 pieces of silver*. At least that was the last I've heard, because I never ever pay attention to politics and news anymore.

* All figures in billions.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 26, 2003.


Thanks, Mateo

I hope the married life is treating you well. I rember the little miracle you told us about on your honeymoon.

God bless you and Miss Mateo.

PS;Couldn't Judas be in one of three different places than instead of two? But, it sure doesn't look good for the fellow, you are right.

-- David (David@excite.com), July 27, 2003.


"I rember the little miracle you told us about on your honeymoon."

That was an amazing experience for us (me especially!) God's working up another miracle for the two of us. More info soon!

May God bless you and your family, David!

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 27, 2003.


Why is there a hell when God supposedly forgives everyone?

-- Kirsten (angel_chicks@hotmail.com), August 02, 2003.

God forgives everyone who seeks forgiveness. Hell is the inevitable end of those who vehemently refuse to turn to God and to accept His forgiveness. Which is why it can truly be said that no-one goes to hell except those who choose to do so.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 02, 2003.

Why is there a hell when God supposedly forgives everyone?

Because not everyone wants to / asks to be forgiven. God does not force salvation on us whether we want it or not. He requires our cooperation.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), August 02, 2003.


Here's an long but interesting read about St. Don Bosco's vision about Hell. It's a little unnerving but worth the read.

In it you'll probably get the full impact, imho, of what Paul and jake mean when they say that no one really goes there unless that want to go there, as hard as that may be to understand.

Many of the other Saints that were granted some sort of insight into Hell say the same thing: that the reasons for people going there are in complete accordance with real justice and real mercy, and that it is the choice of the soul who ends up there.

This story can be found all over the net; I do not know the nature of the particular site that I used in the link above, so if you see something in it you don't like, there's no connection.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 02, 2003.


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