Hi! I have a friend who just told me he cheated on his wife and got someone else pregnant. His wife has filed a divorce. They are both catholic, and this guy seems to think that his wife cannot divorce him and that its ok to love 2 females. He believes only a husband can divorce his wife. I have looked through the bible and can only find husbands divorcing unfaithful wives, but not the other way around. My question is, Can a catholic wife divorce an unfaithful husband?

-- Niccole Mauricio (niccole_mauricio@hotmail.com), July 10, 2003

Answers

Any married person can file for divorce. This is a civil matter, not a Church matter. However, the divorce is not recognized by the Church, regardless of who initiated the procedings. As far as the Church is concerned, a divorced Catholic couple are still married "until death do them part", unless it can be demonstrated by a marriage tribunal that they never actually were validly married.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 10, 2003.

I thought you can only divorce if the spouse was unfaithful, but could not remarry after.

-- (blank@none.com), July 11, 2003.

blank,

With the proliferation of "no-fault" divorces, civil divorces can occur for any reason. And once divorced, these people can remarry in a civic ceremony.

As Paul stated, once validly married, Catholic couples are married for life. No exceptions are made, including an unfaithful spouse. But if there is an abusive spouse, the Church does allow living separately.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), July 11, 2003.

Unless you know this couple extremely well for a long time I would not even attempt to meddle in their affairs.

If your opinion is sought you must be certain it is desired by BOTH parties.

The desire of the Catholic Church is that married couples, whatever the difficulties are, work through those difficulties in a civil, Catholic manner. That sound like a tough road to follow here since apparently the man has been unfaithful. He must own up to his filandering and his fatherhood. His obligation is faithfulness, completely, to his wife. He also now bears the responsibility to support his new child. I am certain this can be done and the marriage saved but not unless this man can see the error of his ways and reform and seek forgiveness for his actions. Also his wife needs to be open to forgiving him as well, but, to answer your question, she retains the right, within the Catholic Church, to separate herself from her unfaithful husband and even to divorce him, provided it is absolutely necessary to protect herself from his actions should they continue.

Infidelity can be forgiven and worked through even when it involves another precious life as its fruit.

From my perspective as an abandoned husband, whose wife remains with her adulterous partner and who has had two children from this affair, it is superfluous to me who the father is, these two children are precious gifts to this world for a reason known to God and they must be cared for and nurtured in a way that shows the sanctity of the true marriage, which remains violated through their parents actions. My personal continuing violation is not an issue regarding their well being. Children are the innocent victims of their parents' actions. But their rights do not include the violation of a sacrament. They are actually entitled to their mother's returning to fidelity with her true husband and repentance of her long affair with their father. This would be an authenitic witness to the teachings of the Catholic Church. In every situation, the sacrament must be protected and honored AND all the children as well but rarely are the, supposed, adults true enough to their faith to accept the responsibility to BOTH seek and offer what matures a relationship FORGIVENESS and to REPENT of what has contributed to all the pain. Then they can truly MOVE ON TOGETHER in the manner Jesus Christ desires for EVERY married couple.

It does not have to be the end of the road for this couple but unless they chose to seek the truth, it will be.

Amen

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 11, 2003.

Jmj
Hi, Glenn.

You wrote: "... once validly married, Catholic couples are married for life. No exceptions are made, including an unfaithful spouse. But if there is an abusive spouse, the Church does allow living separately."

I wanted to let you know that, in addition to grave "abusive[ness]" in a spouse, the Church permits (but does not encourage) separation in the case of adultery. The pertinent canons read as follows:

Canon 1151 -- Spouses have the obligation and the right to maintain their common conjugal life, unless a lawful reason excuses them.

Canon 1152 --
§1 -- It is earnestly recommended that a spouse, motivated by Christian charity and solicitous for the good of the family, should not refuse to pardon an adulterous partner and should not sunder the conjugal life. Nevertheless, if that spouse has not either expressly or tacitly condoned the other's fault, he or she has the right to sever the common conjugal life, provided he or she has not consented to the adultery, nor been the cause of it, nor also committed adultery.
§2 -- Tacit condonation occurs if the innocent spouse, after becoming aware of the adultery, has willingly engaged in a marital relationship with the other spouse; it is presumed, however, if the innocent spouse has maintained the common conjugal life for six months, and has not had recourse to ecclesiastical or to civil authority. ...
§3 -- Within six months of having spontaneously terminated the common conjugal life, the innocent spouse is to bring a case for separation to the competent ecclesiastical authority. Having examined all the circumstances, this authority is to consider whether the innocent spouse can be brought to condone the fault and not prolong the separation permanently.

Canon 1153 --
§1 -- A spouse who occasions grave danger of soul or body to the other or to the children, or otherwise makes the common life unduly difficult, provides the other spouse with a reason to leave, either by a decree of the local Ordinary or, if there is danger in delay, even on his or her own authority.
§2 In all cases, when the reason for separation ceases, the common conjugal life is to be restored, unless otherwise provided by ecclesiastical authority.

Canon 1154 -- When a separation of spouses has taken place, provision is always, and in good time, to be made for the due maintenance and upbringing of the children.

Canon 1155 -- The innocent spouse may laudably readmit the other spouse to the conjugal life, in which case he or she renounces the right to separation.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 12, 2003.

I think some of the anti Gecik trolls may have returned. Nicole if that was you who replied, John was helping you , please read his words a little more carefully

I wanted to let you know that, in addition to grave "abusive[ness]" in a spouse, the Church permits separation in the case of adultery

Peace!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 14, 2003.

Thanks John.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), July 14, 2003.

You're welcome, Glenn.
Thanks, Kiwi. (I guess that it was a "troll," because the attack was gone before I could read it, thanks to Moderator.)
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 14, 2003.

Hello. I have a very serious question that I would like to ask regarding my current situation regarding a similar topic. I am a baptized Catholic, and my girlfriend is a non-catholic, muslim girl also previously married to a muslim guy. The previous marriage was arranged, and became abusive (physically and verbally). A civil divorce has been completed already. We are now attempting to get married in the Catholic Church. BTW - She is not converting her religion, but have agreed to raise our kids in the Catholic faith. We were surprised to be faced with this Tribunal Procedure, and I'm fully aware and accept their reasons for doing what they need to do.

My questions is simply this... They want to contact her ex, which we believe will be disasterous, as most other religons do NOT have a requirement to contact ex relationships to ask their input or indicate what the other (my fiance's) intensions are. Because of this fact, we have not only had major problems in our own relationship (arguing why MY religon has to have these "unnecessary" rules), and also my family who are attemping to disown me if I get married in Civil court because we DO NOT want the Tribunal to contact her ex under any circumstances. We have talked to and already started the Tribunal process ($450 to start). Although we told them about his destructive past, they still do not back down. I am completely LOST for suggestions. I have been told many suggestions and comments and I would like to find out more facts about this.

#1. Can we write or contact a higher level of the Tribunal, or ask to have this procedure avoided?

#2. My parents are very old and TRADITIONAL, and do not fully understand what the Tribunal is trying to do.

#3. What if we "bend the truth" and just REFUSE to give them any contact information or simply DENY them this information? They will reject us, and I will end up getting married under Civil law, thus commiting MORTAL SIN according to some uptight Catholic views from some of my Catholic family members.

My situation is VERY critical. I am being told (basically), that I have NO choice but to notify a potentially DANGEROUS ex, which is above and beyond what is required under Civil law, and if I refuse, then there is a chance the Church will not allow us to get married in Church, in which case, I end up commiting Mortal Sin, which is equivalent to KILLING someone?

Please help me out, because I am a Catholic who is strongly considering why these rules are set out to destroy whatever I have believed for so long.

Who are the Catholic Tribunal trying to protect? Themselves or my Faith? What's funny, is that when I had an Interview with the Tribunal, the lady talking to me was using a top-of-the-line desktop PC with a Flat-screen monitor. It seems that the Tribunal has some serious issues with the way they spend the $1,000 they are charging me for this PROCESS!!

Please Note: On one discussion group, a similar question was posted, and the replies to this posting were completely unacceptable. Please do not reply and tell me, "Marry a Catholic", or that "I am commiting Adultry, because the Catholic Church considers my finance a 'married' woman". These comments are not necessary, and are best kept to yourself. Thank you.

-- Timmy Fernandes (timmy_fernandes@hotmail.com), July 16, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Timmy.

I'm sorry to have to tell you that you're letting your thoughts go in a wrong direction, one that is not compatible with being a Catholic. Let me reply to your numbered items and later comments ...

#1. Can we write or contact a higher level of the Tribunal, or ask to have this procedure avoided?

No, you cannot. Part of the nullity process involves the tribunal's making a good-faith attempt to contact the other "spouse," to obtain his testimony, if he wishes to give it. Try to realize how unreasonable you are being in trying to prevent an eyewitness from giving an account of what occurred. Imagine if people could try to persuade a civil or criminal court judge not to allow in testimony that does not corroborate theirs! Having said that, you need to be reassured that the mere fact that the tribunal would contact this guy does not mean that he will have any conflict with you or your friend. It is not like a divorce court case in which the two parties must see and hear each other. Don't be fearful.

#2. My parents are very old and TRADITIONAL, and do not fully understand what the Tribunal is trying to do.

I doubt that they are "very old," if you are a young man ready to get married. If they really are "traditional," then they know what the tribunal is for, which is why they support your reliance on the tribunal. If they really are "traditional," you are a very fortunate man, because "non-traditional" Catholics are sometimes barely Catholic at all.

#3. What if we "bend the truth" and just REFUSE to give them any contact information or simply DENY them this information?

You can't fool God, Timmy. If you know where the guy is, you have to give the tribunal his address.
If you refuse, the tribunal will not help you.
If you lie, saying that you have no address and no phone number -- thus committing a mortal sin -- the tribunal may try to find the guy; but, if they fail, they will proceed without his testimony. Then, even if they were to grant a Declaration of Nullity, your conscience would know that it would be without effect, and you would know that you were entering into an adulterous relationship, not into a valid marriage.

... I will end up getting married under Civil law, thus commiting MORTAL SIN according to some uptight Catholic views from some of my Catholic family members.

These are not "uptight Catholic views," but facts, based on what Jesus himself taught. If you reject them, you might as well stop calling yourself a Christian.

My situation is VERY critical.

At last you said something correct! Now let's build on it, please.

I am being told (basically), that I have NO choice but to notify a potentially DANGEROUS ex, which is above and beyond what is required under Civil law, and if I refuse, then there is a chance the Church will not allow us to get married in Church, in which case, I end up commiting Mortal Sin, which is equivalent to KILLING someone?

Most of what you said is correct. The two errors:
(1) It is not something "above and beyond what is required under civil law".
(2) Mortal sin is not "equivalent to KILLING someone" else. Rather it "kills" the divine life of sanctifying grace in your soul -- and without that grace, you cannot enter heaven, but only hell.

Please help me out, because I am a Catholic who is strongly considering why these rules are set out to destroy whatever I have believed for so long.

When we believe wrongly "for so long," we should rejoice in having our misconceptions corrected by the Church who is speaking on behalf of God. You feel oppressed, but in reality the Church is helping you tremendously.

Who are the Catholic Tribunal trying to protect? Themselves or my Faith?

Now you have asked a very good question. What the tribunal seeks to protect is the sanctity of the marriage bond and the rights of both spouses and of their children. If your friend is still married (in God's eyes) to the other guy, there is a bond that cannot be broken except by death! The tribunal protects that bond, for the good of the spouses and their children, and to honor God who joined the two as one. On the other hand, if God did not join a couple on their wedding day, the tribunal protects the rights of the two to be separated and to marry others, if that is their vocation.

What's funny, is that when I had an Interview with the Tribunal, the lady talking to me was using a top-of-the-line desktop PC with a Flat-screen monitor. It seems that the Tribunal has some serious issues with the way they spend the $1,000 they are charging me for this PROCESS!!

I have no idea what you are talking about. I see nothing at all improper in the tribunal clerk using a good, reliable computer. Are you struggling with some big-time hatred here -- or are you just pretty tense about the whole thing?

... These comments are not necessary, and are best kept to yourself.

Those things were not "comments," but part of truthful answers that people (including you) needed. Now, Timmy, please pray for the grace you need to go with God and do the right thing.

John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 16, 2003.

John, the above case (Catholic/Muslim marriage) raises an interesting question to me and I hope you can help. If the lady in question was previously married in the muslim faith only (not in a civil court) is this marriage recognized as a marriage by the Church? This of course leads on to the question that if in some remote tribe on a distant island, the tradition is that you give someone a banana and this is taken as a symbol of true love and from that moment on you live as husband and wife, is this recognized as a marriage in the Church?

-- Steve (Steve@MTEP.com), July 18, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Steve. Welcome to the forum!

You wrote: "If the lady in question was previously married in the muslim faith only (not in a civil court) is this marriage recognized as a marriage by the Church?"

Yes, it is. Both parties were Muslim, and the Church presumes (until the contrary is proved) that they exchanged valid consent.

You continued: "This of course leads on to the question that if in some remote tribe on a distant island, the tradition is that you give someone a banana and this is taken as a symbol of true love and from that moment on you live as husband and wife, is this recognized as a marriage in the Church?"

I cannot answer with 100% certainty, but I believe that the answer is "yes." It may be that there must actually be promises made (not just a "symbol of true love), and it may be that there must be a witness to those promises. But I would not rule out your hypothetical example as a marriage that may be presumed to be valid.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 18, 2003.

Of course she can because adaultery is a sin and any way it goes its that way. Both Men and women are the same so I dont think that it is ok for one person and not another.

-- Guillermo (willie5@budweiser.com), July 21, 2003.