Wasn't it the Catholic Church that was responsible for the Bible being written?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 07, 2003

Answers

"No. The Catholic Church tried to take credit for what the Lord did without their help.

Here is a short history of the Bible.

1. Old Testament
The Old Testament was written by Moses, David and Solomon, prophets, seers and kings. There was no "church" of any kind to claim responsibility for it. God inspired individuals to bring God's word to the people. The Old Testament is the recorded revelation of God up until about 400 BC.

2. The Inter-Testamental Period
The time between about 400 BC and about 5 BC is usually called the Years of Prophetic Silence. This is because God created a process that lasted 400 years to create a world climate ready for the coming of the promised Messiah. There was no "church" at this time, either. But there was the new creation of the "synagogue," since the Jewish people needed to worship God and did not have the Temple when they were in exile. When many came back 400-500 BC, they already had functional synagogues; and even though the Temple was being rebuilt by those returning from exile, the synagogue idea remained and more were built. This was the beginning of the "congregation" or "church" as we have it today.

But there was no Scripture being written during this period. That was yet to come after one came "in the spirit and power of Elias" (Luke 1:17).

3. The Time of Christ
It is likely that Matthew (Levi) the tax collector and later disciple of Jesus took notes of what happened during Jesus' ministry. However, it is also true that were God in the flesh living among you, His words would burn into your soul. I am sure, as the apostles clearly recollected as they wrote the New Testament (2 Peter 1:16-21; 1 John 1:1-3; 4:14), they could not escape the image and words of Jesus Christ, God the Son and Son of God, when He spoke into their hearts (Luke 9:44; 24:32).

But it wasn't a "church" that made them write.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And 2 Peter 1:19-21 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
God the Holy Spirit inspired them, perfectly and accurately, to write the words of God for the church. The church did not "inspire" anything.

4. The Church Age
When the apostles wrote their letters, the congregations received them. They read them. They spread them. They copied them for other brethren in Christ Jesus. And they recognized their authority in the Christian's life. So the Scriptures were produced by men of God, not by "the church." But they were produced FOR the church.

The last book of the Bible was Revelation, written about 96 AD, just before the apostle John died around 100 AD. After the apostles died, the churches continued to collect the letters they did not have, to read them and understand the authority under God by which they wrote.

But no one else shared that place. There is an "epistle of Barnabas" (which bears no proof it was written by Barnabas), which many think was penned in the first century. But the difference between its message of salvation and of the apostolic writings is too easy to see. If you believe the Scriptures, you cannot believe the so- called "epistle of Barnabas."

There are the writings of Polycarp, disciple of John (when John was very aged). There are writings of Clement and others. But those are all writings of Christians. Just Christians. Some were even martyrs, but their writings depended on the Scriptures--they were not Scripture themselves. Anyone who would base their faith on them would have a horrid foundation, just as if there were "Lutherans" today, learning of God's word only what they find in Martin Luther's writings. Interesting writing, at times "inspirational" writing, fine. Inspired? Not a chance.

The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. That is why they substituted the corrupt Alexandrian perversions of scripture, instead of using the preserved, prophetic and apostolic Words of God as found in Antioch of Syria, where "the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26). That is why they also added the Alexandrian writings we now call "Apocrypha" to their perverted bibles. That is why they used their Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant Seminaries, Colleges and Bible Schools. Their Jesuits became the "teachers" and planted seeds of doubt in the Christians' minds. These doubt-ridden Christians then taught at other colleges and schools. All the while they planted that same seed of doubt of God's word in their students.

The stage was set: Once people no longer believed in God's Preserved Words, which we find perfectly presented in the King James Bible, they were ripe for destruction. Now, 120 years after the switch from God's Word to devil's lies (the King James abandoned for the Alexandrian texts), while pretending to "improve" our copies of God's words, they really set up the abandonment of God's words. Now almost every Bible in the English-speaking world (and most other languages) is just another re-translation of the Alexandrian polluted stream.

Another way to view it is that the Scriptures as we find them preserved in the King James is like God's fountain ...

Jeremiah 2:13 13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

And that's the point: The bible spewed out by the Catholic church, which now almost all Protestants and other Christians use, ... simply doesn't hold water."

- J.T.C

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 07, 2003.

Well, that was certainly a well-thought and organized answer. However, your "facts" and suppositions are based entirely on an obviously biased point of view.

It is clear that you've done your homework, and it is clear that you hold what you cited as your answer as the truth in your heart.

The bible is a book. It is an attempt by man to bring divinity into a human understanding. I do not mean to suggest that it is intrinsically wrong or that it is not a valid source of religious inspiration. All things are valid if there is a belief as such.

The truth be known, no one is sure who wrote the Bible. Old testament or new, apocryphal or otherwise. Moses is cited as the author of the first five books of the Bible. This has been a pretty accepted belief. However, Dueteronomy tells of Moses death. Now, I'm sure there are those who would claim he was given a prophetic vision of his own demise, but this is unlikely.

All religion was/is borne of man's desire to understand God. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who among us is capable of deciphering the will of God? I am truly saddened when I read or hear those who claim to speak with authority from their own salvation, condemn others who do not believe exactly as they do. I can only believe that these people would be the last I would allow to lead me to God.

God is perfection. Perfect love, perfect compassion, perfect understanding, perfect.

So many who claim to speak for God portray an angry and judgemental diety whose only desire was to create in order to dictate. A Sadam of sorts. Does this seem perfect to you?

So many scoff at the religious rituals and practices of others claiming they have not found God and never will. Who are you to say? I believe God will decide this for himself.

Do not speak of my father with such anger and contempt. Do not claim to know what is just and unjust. Do not condescend to others because they believe differently than you. For you do not know my father and will never come to see his truth. You are blinded by your own self- importance and pride. He shines upon you in all the world, but you cower in the dark with the pages of a small book to teach you. When you have truly found God, you will feel his touch in the breeze, you will hear his voice in the birds, you will see him dancing in all of creation. In every child, in every stone, in every tree, in every blade of grass. When you have found God, you will no longer find it necessary to engage in petty debate about God's truth, because you will know that God is only truth. You will know that no man or woman upon the face of the earth is capable of explaining the perfection that is God. No person is able to contain all that is God within a few hundred pages of a book. You will understand that God has many shapes and many forms. You will find God within yourself.

"You know your father because he is in you and is you" Jesus Christ

There is no evil greater than the evil of ignorance.

-- The Roamer (The_Roamer69@hotmail.com), July 14, 2003.

The Roamer says "The bible is a book."

The bible is The Word of God.

The Roamer says "It is an attempt by man to bring divinity into a human understanding."

No, it is God communicating to his creation.

The Roamer says "The truth be known, no one is sure who wrote the Bible."

I see a lack of faith; Jehovah-God is all powerful but cannot preserve his Word throughout the centuries? The Holy Spirit inspired the writers, and told them what to write. No man can come up with a perfect book free from error.

The Roamer says "All religion was/is borne of man's desire to understand God. Who is right? Who is wrong?"

You see, I am not fighting about ‘religion’. I despise religion. Religion is just in the way of us having a personal relationship with Christ. Religion has murdered so many people in the last thousand years.

The Roamer says "I am truly saddened when I read or hear those who claim to speak with authority from their own salvation, condemn others who do not believe exactly as they do. I can only believe that these people would be the last I would allow to lead me to God."

Your heart is hardened to the truth, I am a sinner but I am sure of my salvation. I am saddened when people put more faith into a religion, a building, a organization than they do to Christ.

The Roamer says "God is perfection. Perfect love, perfect compassion, perfect understanding, perfect."

I agree.

The Roamer says "So many who claim to speak for God portray an angry and [judgmental deity] whose only desire was to create in order to dictate. A Sadam [?] of sorts. Does this seem perfect to you?"

You have to preach a full gospel, watering it down is wrong. God is also Justice, not only love. He has other attributes and his main one is Holyness.

The Roamer says "So many scoff at the religious rituals and practices of others claiming they have not found God and never will. Who are you to say? I believe God will decide this for himself."

Muslims deny Christ. Catholics worship idols. Hindus/Buddhists deny Christ. Are you telling me that God, after plainly stating it in the bible, would allow those who reject him into heaven? "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

The Roamer says "Do not claim to know what is just and unjust."

I do no such thing. I have the Bible to tell me what is just and unjust

The Roamer says "Do not condescend to others because they believe differently than you."

Jesus Christ said it himself, "I am the way the truth and the life" (John 14:6)

The Roamer says "You are blinded by your own self- importance and pride."

I won’t resort to personal attacks.

The Roamer says "He shines upon you in [the entire] world, but you cower in the dark with the pages of a small book to teach you."

That small book is the Holy Scriptures. "...thy word is truth." John 17:17 "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar" Romans 3:4. "God is not a man, that he should lie..."Numbers 23:19

The Roamer says "When you have found God, you will no longer find it necessary to engage in petty debate about God's truth, because you will know that God is only truth."

I don't have to debate, the truth stands alone. All I have to do is show it. If you have the truth and don't tell it and let someone go to the lake of fire THAT IS HATE. What I do is out of LOVE.

The Roamer says "There is no evil greater than the evil of ignorance."

I disagree; there is no greater evil that Religion. Satan is very clever, and has deceived so many people.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 14, 2003.

Interestingly, the KJV New Testament is based on the Textus Receptus edition of the Greek NT, which was compiled by Erasmus, a Catholic monk.

The modern translations (including the Catholic ones) are based on the Nestle-Aland / UBS Greek editions, which are Protestant.

-- __ (__@__.__), July 29, 2003.

Most modern translations are based on Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 23, 2003.

David, you still haven't read any of the "other gospels", have you?

Who decided on which books to reject and which to keep?

What are you gonna do with all of those rejected books? Put them back in to the Holy Bible?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 23, 2003.

rod,

I do not own any of these 'other gospels'. If you give me a link, then I might consider, but otherwise I don't want to waste my time. I trust God to keep his promises, and I have faith he kept his word preserved in the English language.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 23, 2003.

I have provided links in this forum.

If you trust God, then you must trust in those who have done their duty to compile the Holy Bible, even if they go by the title of Catholic. Does this make me a Catholic? I don't think so. Does this make me open to the reality of Christianity? I hope so. Does this mean that sinners can do the duty called upon by God? Sure.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 23, 2003.

Alright rod,

Let's start with your 'Gospel of Thomas'. I do not accept this book as inspired because it is not in the bible. Even your Roman church does not accept this book as inspired. And do not call it a "lost" book because God does not lose things. So, let's see why this is a rejected 'gospel'.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 23, 2003.

One reason for it being rejected was because it was believed to have been compiled from the Synoptic Gospels. Elpidio will probably disagree; he believes that the Synoptic Gospels may have used the "Gospel of Thomas", instead.

Another reason--this gospel of Thomas never comes out and tells that Jesus is the Way to Enternal Life in the same sense that Christianity does. This gospel is considered Gnostic in theological terms.

Another reason--some believe that this gospel was used by Thomas in order to convert the Gnostics into Christianity.

Another reason--the textual evidence supports that idea of a "cut and paste" method of writing. It doesn't flow like the inspired Scriptures.

My confusion plays with the idea that the Book of John may still contain the same type of style of Gnostic writing in particular verses. I'm out to put those confusions to rest trust me.

Well, in view of those reasons I've posted--there are many more, I'm sure--we can begin to understand the work that was involved in compiling the Holy Bible. Do the names Iranaeus and Origen seem less threatening?

...<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 23, 2003.