Battle of Jericho and OT---troubling

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What are Catholics suppossed to believe? I started studying the Old Testiment and I was in for a shock. I always thought God was loving and good and now I'm so confused. According to the Book of Joshua, Chapter 6 verse 21, the Israelites killed every man woman and child, plus the animals of the inhaibants of Jericho. It seems so wrong. Did God direct this? How can God give the 10 commandments and then later tell the israelites to murder and steal? I don't get it.

-- Sharon (delipasta@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003

Answers



-- (top@top.top), July 03, 2003.

Sharon

This is beutiful, the only way to understand the God of the Bible is to read the Bible. The Bible is God speaking to us. The Bible should rule over us and we should test the teaching of every person including the churches. If the church teaches half the Bible then they are a false prophet and a liar!

Romans 3:4 "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

God shows the fact that He is angry, God deals with mankind as a Father. He's the Creator, of course, and God says on the one hand that He is merciful, on the other hand that He is jealous, and that jealousy is not a sinful jealousy such as we have, a jealousy of envy. But it's a jealousy that He wants no one worshipped but Himself, because we are created to glorify Him, and anything less than that is rebellion against God.

And God indicates His anger to warn us of the coming wrath of God, that will come upon us. It's an anger that is for our benefit, really. It's an anger to show us that we're in trouble if we rebel against God, and if we don't do something about our sins. We've got hell to pay, and that's not a cliche. That's absolutely a fact.

May God give you wisdom Peace!!!!!

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 04, 2003.


Yes, it could be looked at from a negative view point and a positive one too. God wants us to be in Heaven with Him, so it is good to stay away from all evil and sin.

rod. . . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.


"The Bible should rule over us and we should test the teaching of every person including the churches. If the church teaches half the Bible then they are a false prophet and a liar"

How can the writings of a Church be used as a test of the teachings of that Church, when the teachings preceded the writings, and the writings were an outgrowth of the teachings?? The teaching came first. It has priority. The mere fact that some of it later got written down doesn't change the status or the priority of the original teaching. That's why the Church, not the Bible, is the only biblically correct foundation of truth.

Any Church which teaches mere personal interpretations of the Bible teaches far less than half the Bible, even if it has private interpretations for every single passage. But of course, no Protestant Church has interpretations for every passage, because many passages are simply so condemnatory of Protestant beliefs and of denominationalism in general that they just keep away from these passages and don't address them at all.

-- (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.


Paul

Let me ask you a question? For the past, let's say 20 years, the church only taught the New Testament, and how much God loves us and we should be good. Do you think this is half truth?

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.



C.S.,

If that was all the Church taught for the last 20 years, it would be far less than half truth. However, I don't know what you are referring to. The Church today teaches the fullness of Christian truth, just as it has taught for 2,000 years. Obviously if a Church is going to be Christian, it has to emphasize the teachings of Christ, and they are found in the New Testament. However, Jesus didn't just talk about love. He had plenty to say about salvation, judgement, heaven and hell, and the Church teaches those truths right along with the rest of His teaching. The Church doesn't ignore the Old Testament either. Every Catholic Mass includes readings from the Old Testament, the Epistles, and the Gospels, as well as a Psalm and various prayers taken from or based on biblical texts. So the whole of Christian truth is constantly presented to the people of His Church, including the whole of Biblical truth. Come and see some time.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.


Hi Sharon,

I don't understand everything that God commanded/forbade in the Old Testament, either.

I think that by commanding the Israelites to wipe out the entire people and all the animals of Jerico, He was teaching them not to accept any of the errors that the pagans fell into. I mean, if they had left the women and children, there would have been intermarriages and mingling of ideas. Reading the end of Solomon's life gives an idea of what that would lead to. (In short, idolatry.)

I know it sounds really tough on all of the poor innocent unbelievers, but the truth God gave to His chosen people was worth preserving.

I think that, as Catholics, we believe that everyone is given the grace to be saved at some point in their lives, so many of the people killed in wars such as this could be in heaven now. (Moderator, let me know if I'm wrong on this.)

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), July 05, 2003.


Jericho?

I thought that the Walls of Jericho were excavated with unsurprising findings. A wealth of pottery filled with grains still in their places were found. This proved that God was obeyed and nothing was pillaged. Are we on the same page here?

rod. . . . . ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.


CS, that is what is soooo beautiful about Mass. We have a scripture reading from the Old and New Testament every week!

It is sometimes difficult to reconcile the Old Testament God of wrath with the New Testament Jesus. However, Jesus makes some very scathing remarks about some folk and let's don't forget His wrath at the moneychangers in the temple! AND God's loving tender mercies are seen THROUGHOUT the Old Testament as well. There is a balance to be sure.

The Old Testament depictions of God's wrath were against generations of peoples who were WICKED TO THE CORE. They were practiced in the art of wickedness through and through. You can be sure GOD KNEW if there was any hope for repentence and redemption within their hearts. Also, you must remember that the Old Testament writers were writing their from their perspective on the events around them.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 05, 2003.


A challenge to all!

Read carefully and study Ancient Isreal. Take notice how God continually to warn Isreal. Then finally God destroys them. Isreal continues to disobey God but most of all Isreal continued to have their high places. These high places were worship of false god and doctrines. Sometimes God uses the term spiritual fornication. After reading some of these events (in the Book of Jeremiah), if God is giving you eyes to see, examine the incredible resemblance Ancient Isreal compared to todays churches! Isreal is typifying all the churches today. God is prophesizing that's what HE will do to the churches.

The king of Babablon is a picture of Satan. God used the king to destroy Isreal so will God use Satan to destroy the churches!

Read Jeremiah, it is today's newspaper!

God Bless

-- C.S (Embasader333@yahoo.com), July 10, 2003.



It may be good to understand the "real" meaning of the word "Hyksos". Once this word is defined, we can decide if the "Chosen Ones" were captives or kings. Then we can understand the Jews much better and what the Scriptures are truly teaching us.

rod. ... .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 10, 2003.


Gail

you stated "The Old Testament depictions of God's wrath were against generations of peoples who were WICKED TO THE CORE. They were practiced in the art of wickedness through and through. "

God tells us in Romans:3:10 "As it is written *, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one "

This would include the entire human race, past present and future. I think today's generation is more wicked than ever.

You stated "Also, you must remember that the Old Testament writers were writing their from their perspective on the events around them. "

Are you kidding with this statement? Every single word and phrase came out of the Mouth of God. Do you believe these words are God's words? Or spiritual men?

II Timothy 3:16. There we read: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

2Peter:1:21" for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. "

We must be careful in what we say.

God Bless...

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 11, 2003.


Jmj
Hello, Soldier Paolo.

I would like to recommend highly that you read a short, but eloquent document on God's revelation to mankind. It is called "Dei Verbum" ("The Word of God"), and it is referred to as the Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation. Prepared by the more than 2,000 Catholic bishops of the world in 1965, the whole text can be found here, but I want to quote three of its twenty-six articles below -- in support of Gail.

You see, Paolo, what you say to us about the Bible is just your own private thoughts, your opinions, your guesses, with no authority whatsoever behind them at all. [The protestant living just down the block from you has a different set of thoughts, opinions, and guesses -- also with no reliability and no authority behind them.] But what Catholics try to teach you here at the forum, and what you are about to read, has the authority of Jesus and the Apostles behind it ["He who hears you hears me"]. That's why we accept what the Catholic Church teaches us and why we reject whatever you have to say that is in conflict with it.

---------------------- QUOTE: ---------------
11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself. In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him, they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted.

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words. To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another.

But, since Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written,) no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God.

13. In Sacred Scripture, therefore, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact, the marvelous "condescension" of eternal wisdom is clearly shown, "that we may learn the gentle kindness of God, which words cannot express, and how far He has gone in adapting His language with thoughtful concern for our weak human nature." For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men.
----------------------- UNQUOTE -----------

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 12, 2003.


I'm so confused. Does anyone know the answer of my question asked? Thanks. Did God direct the killing of every man, woman, and child at Jericho. Also, why would God give the 10 commandments then later tell the Israelites to murder and steal? What is the Catholic view?

Sharon

-- Sharon (delipasta@hotmail.com), July 12, 2003.


Dear Sharon:
Before you judge God let me remind you; He gives life and He can take away life at will. Nothing about death should trouble you. It is man's destiny to die; all men. Every living and breathing thing in the world has death for its last act. God can prolong life, or, for His own purposes, bring lives to an end. This is how we see the events in the Old Testament. Every life, good or evil, lasted for as long as God wished. The faithful realise this is perfection in life; to fulfill God's wishes, His divine Will.

That's why the holy Patriarch Abraham, when commanded to sacrifice Isaac, his beloved son, did as God told him (Gen 22, :2-11). Death is only frightening to those who have no love for God, Sharon. For the faithful, death is only the natural portal into eternal life.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 12, 2003.



Sharon

I have mentioned this a few times and I speak the truth, the entire Bible is dripping with hidden spiritual truths. I will help you understand. God speaks in parables, why?

Here is the answer: Mark 4:11 "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. "

Mark 4:34"But without a parable spoke he not unto them: and when they were alone *, he expounded all things to his disciples."

Numbers: 24:23 "And he took up his parable, and said, Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!"

God reinforces this, for example, in Psalm 78:1-3:"Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old; Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us."

The entire Bible as a whole is the WORD of God. "The WORD became flesh” So we know when we read the Bible, it is as if our Lord is speaking to us. To understand scriptures God must give us spiritual eyes to see, and ears to hear. All scripture has hidden spiritual truths. God purposely chose and orchestrated every historical scene, and conversations, exactly the way HE wanted them to be. They are all true and accurate historical events, but the way a specific event occurred, is as if God is teaching us a parable. (I am trying to say this correct so I don't get attacked)

Those who say that they accept the Bible literally and would not dare spiritualize (that is, look for a deeper spiritual meaning relating to salvation), actually do spiritualize when it is convenient. So what is God trying to tell us about salvation within this historical event? (Of course, God also teaches us other truths, like moral and spiritual truths)

Keeping the law cannot bring us into salvation. When God subjected Christ to hell for our sins, the demands of the law, that the penalty of our sins be paid for, was fulfilled. God’s action in punishing Christ ended the law’s demands. Thus, the believer (Elect) does not enter into salvation by keeping the law. Instead, he enters into heaven by the grace of God (typified by Joshua, a Hebrew word that means, "Jehovah is salvation”). The “LAW” refers to the entire Bible. We follow God’s commandments only because we have an intense desire to do the will of God by obeying HIM. Well I get great enjoyment doing it God’s way!!!!!

I believe the gospel message that God is trying to teach us, is a picture of judgment day. The last day will be a dark and gloomy day for those who are unsaved when Christ returns. If we read a little be further up, we have some clues. We read: “19: But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD.” [Here the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, is a picture of the Elect, or true believers which God does not destroy because they are the chosen ones predestinated from before the foundations of the world] “20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.”

[The trumpet is the a picture of the command or the voice of God. On the last day Christ returns to destroy the wicked. We can see this in,

Revelations 1:10 :”I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”

Also here are more clues: In

1Corin; 15:52” In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” So we know the spiritual message that God has in view here. We know that on the last day it will be an ugly day.

One other verse I like is in Mathew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other *. We can tie all of these verses together because they harmonize. Or teach the same truth.

We can also see that God is not a respecter of person. If our names are not written in the book of Life, then it doesn’t matter who you are, God’s wrath is upon them. They would have to pay the penalty in the Lake of Fire, for eternity. We should be crying out to God for understanding and mercy.

There are so many awkward and strange scenes in the Bible. The question is what is God trying to teach us. Look at my first response at the beginning of this tread. It is exactly what I told you from the start.

How could we not fear God, people? Have any of you become saved? The last day is at hand it is very very near!

P.S. In proverbs 1:5-6 God informs us: “A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels; To understand a proverb [also means parable], and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

God bless!!! I hope I answered your question.

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 13, 2003.


Jmj

Hello, Sharon.
From the moment I read your opening message (on July 3) until now, I have known that you were asking very sincere, very tough questions. I am not an expert on this subject, but I have given it some thought and done a little digging, so I thought I'd try to respond to you at some length. First, I'm going to quote from your two messages, to bring your concerns back to the forefront ...

"[From July 3:] What are Catholics supposed to believe? I started studying the Old Testament and I was in for a shock. I always thought God was loving and good and now I'm so confused. According to the Book of Joshua, Chapter 6 verse 21, the Israelites killed every man woman and child, plus the animals of the inhaibants of Jericho. It seems so wrong. Did God direct this? How can God give the 10 commandments and then later tell the israelites to murder and steal? I don't get it. ... [Follow-up on July 12:] I'm so confused. Does anyone know the answer of my question asked? ... Did God direct the killing of every man, woman, and child at Jericho. Also, why would God give the 10 commandments then later tell the Israelites to murder and steal? What is the Catholic view?"


To begin my answer, I want to quote the relevant passage (Joshua 6:16-24) from the New American Bible, emphasizing certain words:

"The seventh time [the people marched] around [Jericho], the priests blew the horns and Joshua said to the people, 'Now shout, for the Lord has given you the city and everything in it. It is under the Lord's ban. Only the harlot Rahab and all who are in the house with her are to be spared, because she hid the messengers we sent.
But be careful not to take, in your greed, anything that is under the ban; else you will bring upon the camp of Israel this ban and the misery of it. All silver and gold, and the articles of bronze or iron, are sacred to the Lord. They shall be put in the treasury of the Lord.'
As the horns blew, the people began to shout. When they heard the signal horn, they raised a tremendous shout. The wall collapsed, and the people stormed the city in a frontal attack and took it. They observed the ban by putting to the sword all living creatures in the city: men and women, young and old, as well as oxen, sheep and asses.
Joshua directed the two men who had spied out the land, 'Go into the harlot's house and bring out the woman with all her kin, as you swore to her you would do.' The spies entered and brought out Rahab, with her father, mother, brothers, and all her kin. Her entire family they led forth and placed them outside the camp of Israel.
The city itself they burned with all that was in it, except the silver, gold, and articles of bronze and iron, which were placed in the treasury of the house of the Lord."


Notice the statements that Jericho was "under the Lord's ban" -- and, later, that Israel "observed the ban by putting to the sword all living creatures."

The words "under the ban" were a special term meaning cursed and doomed to destruction by the command of God himself. In Hebrew the word is "herem," translated into Greek as "anathema," a word that has been taken into English (though with a milder meaning now). Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about Joshua (in its article on "anathema"). The reason for the ban/herem/anathema is not mentioned until the very end ...

"To understand the word anathema ... we should first go back to the real meaning of 'herem,' of which it is the equivalent. 'Herem' comes from the word 'haram' (to cut off, to separate, to curse) and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated, whether a person or a thing, and in consequence, that which man is forbidden to make use of. ...
"This is the sense of anathema in the following passage from Deuteronomy 7:26 -- 'Neither shalt thou bring anything of the idol into thy house, lest thou become an anathema like it. Thou shalt detest it as dung, and shalt utterly abhor it as uncleanness and filth, because it is an anathema.'
Nations, individuals, animals, and inanimate objects may become anathema, i.e. cursed and devoted to destruction. It was thus that the people inhabiting the Promised Land were anathematized as Moses says (Deuteronomy 7:1-2): 'When ... the Lord thy God shall have delivered them to thee, thou shalt utterly destroy them.'

[Continuing from the Catholic Encyclopedia:]
"When a people was anathematized by the Lord, they were to be entirely exterminated. Saul was rejected by God for having spared Agag, King of the Amalekites ... . Anyone who spared anything belonging to a man who had been declared anathema, became himself anathema. ...
"Sometimes it is cities that are anathematized. When the anathema is rigorous, all the inhabitants are to be exterminated, the city burned, and permission denied ever to rebuild it, and its riches offered to [Yahweh]. This was the fate of Jericho (Joshua 6:17). If it is less strict, all the inhabitants are to be put to death, but the herds may be divided among the victors (Joshua 8:27). The obligation of killing all inhabitants occasionally admits of exceptions in the case of young girls who remain captives in the hands of the conquerors (Numbers 31:18).
"The severity of the anathema in the Old Testament is explained by the necessity there was of preserving the Jewish people and protecting them against the idolatry professed by the neighboring pagans."


Sharon, do you remember hearing this verse from the Bible? ...
"Isaiah 55:9 -- For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Thus, it is not for us to question the propriety of God (1) forbidding people (in the Ten Commandments) to murder and steal, while (2) commanding them (on other occasions) to kill people and take their property. His ways are beyond our ability to comprehend fully. It may seem that God was imposing a kind of "death penalty" on the people of Canaan. The possible reasons? For their disobedience to the natural law ... for their refusal to adore the God of Israel (of whom they had heard) ... as a form of "self-defense" for his Chosen People, Israel ... as a way of offering everything/everyone up as a holocaust. Keep in mind ... We creatures are not allowed arbitrarily to condemn and kill others, because we did not give them their lives. But God the Creator DID give everyone his/her life (a gift that he owed to no one at all), so he is free to end any life when he chooses.

A Benedictine commentator on the Bible wrote this: "Ban-type warfare (in Hebrew, herem) called for complete dedication (i.e., destruction) of all to God. No 'looting' was permitted. It is not hard to imagine how difficult this was for the impoverished Hebrew people. It required nothing less than heroic faith not to appropriate precious metals, clothing, arms, etc.. "

Other commentators offer the following thoughts:

----- "Why was Israel commanded to practice such complete destruction? Because the greatest sins of the Canaanites were spiritual [contrary to Deuteronomy 18]: 'When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. ... For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.' Such judgment seems harsh to us, because it is harsh -- and we must recognize, that at unique times, God has commanded that such judgment take place -- either through an army that He has used (as is the case here), or through judgment that He has directly brought (such as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah ...). ... We see a contrast between judgment and salvation. All of Jericho had heard of the God of Israel (Joshua 2:8-11) -- but only Rahab responded positively in faith towards God with that knowledge" [Guzik]

[Here are the mentioned words from Joshua 2, relating what the pagan woman of Jericho, Rahab, told the Israelite spies whom she hid: "I know that the Lord has given you the land, and that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you. For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites that were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. And as soon as we heard it, our hearts melted, and there was no courage left in any man, because of you; for the Lord your God is he who is God in heaven above and on earth beneath."

----- "... Pierson observes that Joshua's saving Rahab the harlot and admitting her into Israel were a figure of Christ's receiving into his kingdom, and entertaining there, the publicans and the harlots ... . Or it may be applied to the conversion of the Gentiles." [Henry] (Jesus and Joshua shared the same name in Hebrew.)

----- "It should be remembered that the Canaanites were incorrigible idolaters, addicted to the most horrible vices, and that the righteous judgment of God might sweep them away by the sword, as well as by famine or pestilence. There was mercy mingled with judgment in employing the sword as the instrument of punishing the guilty Canaanites, for while it was directed against one place, time was afforded for others to repent." [Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown]

----- "[They killed all the inhabitants of Jericho,] young and old -- being commanded to do so by the sovereign Lord of every man's life, [having been] informed by God before[hand] that the Canaanites were abominably wicked, and deserved the severest punishments." [Wesley]

----- "As this act was ordered by God himself, who is the Maker and Judge of all men, it must be right: for the Judge of all the earth cannot do wrong." [Clarke]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 13, 2003.


Oh, and "Christian Soldier," you forgot to mention how well you enjoyed, and how much you learned from, "Dei Verbum," the Vatican II document that I linked for you, above.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 13, 2003.

JFG

I don't understand your coment? Do agree what I have said?

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 13, 2003.


CS, you don't understand my comment? It's easy to understand.
When I wrote to you on July 12, I stated this:

"I would like to recommend highly that you read a short, but eloquent document on God's revelation to mankind. It is called "Dei Verbum" ("The Word of God"), and it is referred to as the Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation. Prepared by the more than 2,000 Catholic bishops of the world in 1965, the whole text can be found here ..."

That's why I said to you yesterday, "... you forgot to mention how well you enjoyed, and how much you learned from, 'Dei Verbum,' the Vatican II document that I linked for you, above."
Surely, you have read it by now, haven't you? If not, how can you possibly expect to have conversations with Catholics about divine revelation? The document contains our key doctrines on the subject.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 14, 2003.


Yes, CS, please do read John's referenced article, Dei Verbum. It is excellent.

John, you wrote an excellent response to Sharon's question.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 14, 2003.


Thanks, Gail. I had to work hard on that one, but it was rewarding in itself. (Now you doubly reward me!)
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 14, 2003.

JFG

I agree on some of those statements, but this one in chapter two, towards the bottom really caught my eyes. Here I quoted it for you:

"This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed."

So it is true according to your doctrine, that the church is not above the Bible. Perhaps you didn't see this?

this statement accords with this verse in the Bible: 1Peter:5:2 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3: Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

I found a few more interesting verses:

Ezekiel 34:10 "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them."

Here is a situation where God is furious with the Church leaders, so God ends it. But the next verse is what I apply to my life, God then tells us:

Ezekiel 34:15 "I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD."

It is God who is feeding me and guiding me. Why is this so hard to understand?

God also tells us in 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17: If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. "

So I know that God's Spirit dwells in me. I am part of God's temple. This is only true for those individuals that God saves!

Peace....

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 14, 2003.


Jmj
Hello, CS.

You wrote (speaking of the Vatican II document, "Dei Verbum" [The Word of God]):
"I agree on some of those statements, but this one in chapter two, towards the bottom really caught my eyes. Here I quoted it for you: 'This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.' So it is true according to your doctrine, that the church is not above the Bible. Perhaps you didn't see this?"

Why do you ask, "Perhaps you didn't see this?"? Of course I saw it! When did I ever say that "the [Catholic] Church is ... above the Bible"? Quote my offensive statement, please.

Later, you wrote:
"I found a few more interesting verses: Ezekiel 34:10 '... Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my sheep at their hand, and put a stop to their feeding the sheep; no longer shall the shepherds feed themselves. ...'
"Here is a situation where God is furious with the Church leaders, so God ends it. But the next verse is what I apply to my life, God then tells us: Ezekiel 34:15 'I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.'"

What's the matter with you, Paolo? What makes you think that the prophecy of Ezekiel is part of the New Testament? God was not "furious with the Church leaders". How can you invent such a thing? Ezekiel shows how God was angry at the leaders of his Chosen People, Israel, which he would withdraw from their poor care. In the New Testament, he never says anything like this about the Catholic Church that Jesus founded. On the contrary, he said that he would be with his Church "always, until the end of the world" and that "the gates of hell would not prevail against" the Church.

Paolo, you must learn that you can never successfully use the Bible against a Catholic. It is our book -- our "love letters from God." Catholics wrote the New Testament. Catholics put the 73 books under one cover more than 300 years after Jesus ascended. Catholics preserved and copied the Bible for many centuries -- without which you would not even have the Bible which which you sacrilegiously try to attack the true Church. LEARN something for a change, CS. You cannot use the Bible as a weapon against Catholics, because it will turn itself around and misfire in your face.

You continued:
"It is God who is feeding me and guiding me. Why is this so hard to understand?"

It is easy to "understand," but impossible to believe, because you are deeply mired in error, and God would not have "guid[ed]" you to the bad place that you reached. On the other hand, it is perhaps true that the Holy Spirit is "guiding" you to this forum, so that he can be "feeding" you with the Catholic truth. Now it is time, though, for you to open your mouth like a little bird and accept that truth from us who want to teach you.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 15, 2003.


Excellent, John--
CS also needs to realise that the verses he quotes us here: ''God also tells us in 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17: If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. "

So I know that God's Spirit dwells in me. I am part of God's temple. This is only true for those individuals that God saves!''

---Is badly confused for him, in his errors. He forgets Saint Paul was writing to the converts he had brought to the Church. The infant Catholic Church in Corinth. Not to anybody who has abandoned that Church, as his ''reformer'' antecedents did.

You can't be outside the true Church and yet be counted as a ''temple of God'', CS. You're a heretical temple at best. There are no saved ''individuals'' outside the Catholic Church. Only lost sheep. Paul was not speaking to you, CS-- in 1 Cor. He wrote to the Catholic Church!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 15, 2003.


JFG

I believe there is so much information in the Old Testament that is prophesizing the end times, which is today. I strongly believe God recorded extensively about Ancient Isreal because God is giving us a picture of the New Testement churches of today. Honestly I know you will not agree, but seriuosly do a study on all the events on Isreal and compare it with the churches today.

This is why I strongly believe God will destroy the churches, Spiritually. And it will happen from the inside. Satan will use false phrophets and teachers within the churches and try to decieve many. If God removes the candlestick, then the Holy Spirit is not active in the church anymore. When I read Revelations, first 4 chapters, God gives us a little taste in how He carefully examines the Churches, and there is ugly language in how God angrly destroys the 7 churches.

But it is the people inside who claim they are faithful, who are desroying the churches spiritually. I know you do not agree, but there are so much end time verses that clearly speak about this. I wouldn't mind talking about the end time verses in another tread, perhaps you may be able to explain them.

Now if you claim the church is the pillar and ground of truth, then that is putting authority over the Bible. That is why I made that other statement.

Eugene

The reason why you gave me that response is because, you do not believe that there is a spiritual church ( which are the Elect) and a physical church which is a picture of the spiritual church. I gave you many verses that justify this, but you ignored them. You also do not believe that somebody can become saved.

I am living proof. Why do you think I stick around? God has been doing miraculous things in my life, and is continually giving me the evidence that I have become saved. I see things in the Bible that will blow your mind! There is so much hidden truths that are pouring out of the bible. God is giving me eyes to see brother. I just need more practice in explaing these truths, but it is not easy.

If you noticed everything I have stated in this forum, so far is harmonizing. I read all different responses from the catholic members, and almost everytime they condradict one another. I thought the Catholic church has one teaching? But I keep hearing mixed answers to various topics, discussed. I try to test everybody. I am not trying to bash the church. I just want truth. If I am wrong, I would gladly admit it.

God Bless

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 16, 2003.


CS,
I must be frank. WHAT have [you] stated in this forum, that so far is harmonizing? You aren't saying anything TRUE.

To be harmonious, you must cast off your error. Now you say, ''I just need more practice in explaining these truths, but it is not easy.'' EASY??? It's easy to make false claims here. No one can stop you. What's hard for you, Dear Lad, is admitting that the Holy Spirit HASN'T guided you. You'll make up any grandiose story; you'll say it ''blows your mind'', you'll claim anything at all you please. --PROOFS??? There aren't any. You're fantasizing!

Harmonizing? No, fantasizing. You can't even begin to shake the true faith of Catholics. Not with the Bible, not without the Bible. Where the Bible is concerned, and its truth; nothing but nonsense comes to you. Complete nonsense; I'm sorry. I wish it were not so plain, and I didn't have to be blunt. I'm so sorry for you!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 16, 2003.


Jmj

Christian Soldier Paolo,
When at least one other person called for you to be banned, I was one of the people who spoke up for you, because you seemed to be different -- not an anti-Catholic bigot. However, I have begun to lose my patience with you, because you are making ZERO progress here. And when a guy shows no movement for weeks and weeks -- instead using the forum as a platform for his proselytizing -- it's time for that guy to go.

You don't seem interested in learning anything, Paolo. You write: "I just want truth. If I am wrong, I would gladly admit it." But it doesn't take much reading of your posts to realize that you are lying. You say that you "just want truth," but when we give the "truth" to you, you ignore it or reject it. When we prove that you are "wrong," you don't "gladly admit it." Heck, you don't admit it at all (grudgingly or gladly). You just keep pouring on the same fundie malarkey.

Please realize RIGHT NOW, pal, that you are not going to change the Cahtolic Church and that you are not going to make any of us convert to your protestant denomination. So you have two choices:
(1) Move back toward Catholicism yourself, or ...
(2) Leave the forum and continue to wander in a fog.
You don't have the third choice of staying here and harassing us. So which will it be, #1 or #2?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003.


Well at least listen to the word of God!!!! This is how God views the churches of today:

Jeremiah 5:21 "Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

5:22 Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?

5:23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone. 5:24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

5:25 Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you. 5:26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men..........

5:29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? "

I did not come to this forum to start trouble. And no way in the world could I convert anybody either. It is God who does all the work in drawing and saving every person who He chose from the foundation of the world. The question is , could there be any in this forum? I don't know! Well, I know if I faithfully teach the Word of God, then God will use my information to draw and save who He intended to save. Assuming there are some Elects in this forum.

Ezekiel 34:11"For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12: As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country."

God Bless.... I'll stay on the sidelines for a while if it pleases you! Peace.........

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 18, 2003.


Jmj

Hello, CS.
You closed by saying: "I'll stay on the sidelines for a while if it pleases you!"

What would "please me" most is for you to return to the Catholic Church (the pillar and foundation of the truth). Short of that, would would "please me" is if you would abide by the forum's rules. You just now admitted that you are doing something wrong. Non-Catholics are welcome here, but there are certain specific things that they are invived to do. They are not invited to proselytize (to "teach" their flawed beliefs). But that is exactly what you said that you are here for, when you wrote the following words:

Well, I know if I faithfully teach the Word of God, then God will use my information to draw and save who He intended to save.

You are not here to "teach" anyone, CS. You are here to offer comments or to ask questions, so that you can learn about the Catholic faith. We aren't interested in your torrents of Bible verses, because we are already familiar with them, because we don't believe in "proof-texting," and because we know that your verses can never successfully defend your faulty positions. (Too often, you don't interpret Bible verses correctly.)

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 19, 2003.


OK THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE, I WILL PRAY ON IT. I'LL STICK WITH ASKING QUESTIONS THEN.

PEACE!

-- C.S (EMBASADOR333@YAHOO.COM), July 19, 2003.


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