Re-cap on pre-election

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Continuation of Paul and Eugene post..........

No I never studied Clavin's work. If you only knew the power of the Holy Spirit then you would believe the Christ himself can guide someone and teach them just by reading the Bible diligently and prayfully! I tremble before the Word of God! I like to listen to others teach, but because God (the Word, the Bible) is my only authority, I test every man's teaching with the scriptures, prayfully. The Bible is God speaking to us.

I don't understand who the Catholic people are trusting? You keep saying it has all truth and it's the first church. In that case the 7 churches in Revelations chap. 1 - 3 were the first Churches and God destroyed them. Again the Bible distiguishes 2 churches, the physical and the spiritual church. The true church is the spiritual church, which are all the elect that God saves as the gospel is proclaimed! This is purely Biblical.

The physical churches are made up of filthy sinners plus the elect of God who are under the teaching of overseers, priests, or pastors. The last event before Christ returns, God's judgement will begin in the house of God and transition to judgement day, the last day. The churches will be ruled by Satin! Matter of fact all the evidence I see, I believe the abomination of desolation has begun. The churches are falling away very rapidly, all denominations.

God gives us a very interesting and significant comment on someone not being part of a physical church, like the Catholic Church. In Proverbs 6. In verses 6-8, God commands:

"Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest."

If God can rule over the lowly ant which has neither guide, overseer, or ruler, surely He can rule over His children who at the moment of salvation had been given a new resurrected soul in which they never want to sin again and who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Just because God utilized fellow humans (pastors, elders, deacons), to have spiritual oversight does not mean that God cannot rule directly without such spiritual oversight.

Moreover, we must remember that throughout history, most of the peoples of the world were illiterate, and Bibles were relatively scarce. Therefore, a very practical purpose was served by the spiritual rulers in the congregation who should have been literate and should have had access to a Bible.

Today, the Bible is increasingly available in printed form. Additionally, its message can be heard worldwide by radio, the Internet, satellite, etc.

In any case, we are to remember the principle set forth in Philippians 2:13, "For it is God which worketh in you [the true believers] both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 11, 2003

Answers

Whether you have ever formally studied Calvin's writings or not, you have obviously been misled by his heretical beliefs. Catholics have known the power of the Holy Spirit since the day of Pentecost. If Christ can guide someone to doctrinal truth just through their reading of the Bible, why doesn't He? Why is it that any group of people who decide to trust in the Bible alone quickly fragment into conflicting groups with contradictory beliefs? Why is it that the one Church which remains faithful to original Christian teaching, rejecting the manmade tradition of sola scripture, remains unified after 2,000 years, with no conflicting teachings and no denominations. Jesus said "by their fruits shall ye know them". The fruit of one system is disunity and doctrinal chaos. The fruit of the other is unity and unchanging truth. Which sounds more like the work of the Holy Spirit, Who is a Spirit of order, not chaos, and of truth, not untruth?

You say "I don't understand who the Catholic people are trusting?"

If you knew the Bible, you would know that it is God's Word in which Catholic Church places its trust. The Bible repeatedly tells us that the truth comes to us through the Church. But you reject this biblical teaching, and try to force the Bible to fill the role which God assigned to the Church. That's the reason for the widespread confusion which characterize your tradition. As long as you attempt to follow this manmade system, you will be drawn deeper and deeper into confusion and untruth.

The Bible repeatedly speaks of "THE Church". There is only one Church founded by God. It has both spiritual and temporal aspects. All "churches" mentioned in scripture, such as the Church at Corinth, Rome, Thessalonica, etc., are simply locations of the one true Church, united in common belief and common worship. Today the Church calls such local units "dioceses". The Church at Boston, the Church at Miami, and the Church at San Diego are one and the same Church, united in Spirit and in truth. In contrast, two Protestant churches on the same city block often teach conflicting and contradictory doctrine.

I agree with you on one point - all denominations are indeed falling away from truth. Denominational religion has been self-destructing since it came into existence 450 years ago. But the true Church, the one Jesus founded, the one without denominations, remains strong and true, continuing to preach the fullness of truth until the end of time.

You say "Just because God utilized fellow humans (pastors, elders, deacons), to have spiritual oversight does not mean that God cannot rule directly without such spiritual oversight"

A: Let me paraphrase that statement ... "Just because God founded one Church, set it up a specific way, and said that all men were to belong to that one Church does not mean that He won't contradict Himself and do things the opposite of how He said He wanted things done". Is that about right? No, it isn't. It's dead wrong.

"Moreover, we must remember that throughout history, most of the peoples of the world were illiterate, and Bibles were relatively scarce. Therefore, a very practical purpose was served by the spiritual rulers in the congregation who should have been literate and should have had access to a Bible"

A: Right you are! In other words, the preaching and teaching of the Church, NOT the reading of a book, has been the means by which God brought people to salvation throughout the long history of Christianity!

"Today, the Bible is increasingly available in printed form. Additionally, its message can be heard worldwide by radio, the Internet, satellite, etc"

A: Yes, and it is no coincidence that the fragmentation of denominational religion began at precisely the same point in history that physical Bibles became more widely available. Before that, people followed the Word of God in His Holy Church. After that, some people figured "I can do it myself". Sadly, history has confirmed, and continues to confirm, that they can't.



-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 11, 2003.


Paul My problem is that you claim every Catholic teaching is authoritive and perfect, and there can't be mistakes. It rules over the Bible.

Isn't this puttting yourselves in the same level as God! WOE is me!!!!! Aren't you trembling Brother? If I give some scripture that seems to contradict a catholic teaching or practice, wouldn't you want to be faithful and correct your doctrine?

Perhaps the subject of pre- election is a bit difficult to see, but I here so many of catholic teachings and practices that flat out contradict the Bible. For example, the Bible says:

Exodus:20:4"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; " This action is hatred towards God.

Leviticus 26" Ye shall make you NO idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

Don't these verses frighten you? How can the Catholic church flat out, point plank, disobey God's command here? Everybody bows down to your statues. And how to we know how Jesus Christ looks. I know what you are going to say. You will find an excuse why this is done. I bet everyone who prays to Christ will have that mental picure of Jesus embedded in their heads? This idolatry my friend.

The church doesn't seem to be teaching according to the Bible. I can't find one word in the Bible where it says "POPE ". These are a few. Why wouldn't the Church want to correct some of these unbiblical practices. Do you believe you are not teaching lies? The church probably should re-write the Bible to suit their tickling ears. Heck, why even read the Bible if the Church lays out the rules!

I love God with all my heart and when I see what's going on, I get furious. No body respects God's infallible WORD, the authority of all men!

Going back to Pre-election, there was some scripture that caught my eyes. in

Romans"11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath GIVEN them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. "

Verse after verse that I have given you, keeps supporting that God does all the work of saving. And that he chooses them. We know that the heart of man is desparetly wicked, and there is no one righteous. You noticed how God says the elect were given salvation and the rest blinded. So if God is blinding the rest, then they will never turn to Christ in God's terms!

The elect of God were just as rebelious as the whole human race. So why does God do this? For one, we are in no place to question God and two, only the elect will worship and glorify God the way God wants to be glorifyed. Because once the elect have spiritual eyes, boy they will know that God did something supernatural in their lives. And day and night, continually they thank God for thier salvation. This is the way it is.

So as a catholic, how does a church member get to heaven. You have said, in an analogy, that we are running a race and who endures to the end will go to heaven. Isn't this trying to earn salvation?

God Bless all!

P.S. If there is anybody who gave themselves to the Lord and faithfully reads the Bible and Loves to do God's will, Do you honestly believe it was all of your decision to take this action? Or do you give every bit of your action to the Lord for giving you the will to take this action?



-- Christian soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 14, 2003.


Isn't this putting yourself on the same level as God?

Hello C.S.

I see nothing in Paul's answer, and have never been taught anything in my Catholic education that even comes close to suggesting that we/the Church are putting ourselves on the same level as God. The teachings of the Church are guided by the Holy Spirit. Just as you believe your interpretation of the bible is. We as Catholics do not believe that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to false doctrine. Sola Scriptura is, as a method of understanding truth somewhat untrustworthy because everyone comes up with different conclusions. Which conclusions were truely guided by the Holy Spirit versus which conclusions were influenced by what "we wanted" scripture to tell us?

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), June 14, 2003.


Hi Christian Soldier,

I think that a lot of your objections are based on a very common misunderstanding of the Catholic Church's teachings.

First of all, I want to share with you a bit of my background. My family is deeply religious, but I grew up taking my faith for granted. Sure, I didn't do anything really bad, but I wasn't really trying, either. My Mom pushed me into a small one-year Catholic college and I went, just because I had nothing better to do. (Our Lady Seat of Wisdom Academy, with a graduating class of fourteen!) That year really changed my whole perspective: I met a lot of people who truly left God in charge of their lives, I read practically the whole Bible for Scripture class, and practically the whole Catechism for Christian Doctrine class. I love Jesus, the Bible, the Church, and St. Thomas- I'm not in school now, but I'm attending Ave Maria this fall and I can't wait to get back into the Christian College atmosphere.

I really try to do God's will in my life, and if I saw anything in the Bible that contradicted Church teachings, it would shake the foundations of my faith. However, I've talked to quite a few people, read quite a few essays and books, and even read through most of Jack Chick's website; in all honesty, I can't say that I've found anything seriously wrong with Church teachings.

First of all, we do believe that the Church's teachings are perfect. We are of the opinion that (just as you believe the Holy Spirit guides your "infallible" inspiration of the Bible) the Holy Spirit guides the Church.

In your objection to statues, you are confusing what Catholics do with what people say they do. We don't worship statues! We don't even honor them! I don't know anyone who bows down to them!?! They are works of religious art, like the cherubim that God ordered to decorate the Ark of the Covenant. Also, God commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who looked at it were healed. Religious art is not forbidden; even the early Christians in the Catacombs realized that, and decorated their walls with frescos and carvings. I don't understand what you mean about "how we know what Jesus Christ looked like," but I don't think that the Catholic Church dictates what to believe on that account, either. :)

No, you won't find the word "Pope" in the Bible. Or the word "euthanasia," or the word "America." However, Jesus said, "Go out and preach the Word to all nations." America is a nation. Logical conclusion: preach the Word to America. "Thou shalt not murder." Euthanasia is murder. Logical conclusion: euthanasia is wrong. "You are Peter, and on this rock I shall build my Church." The Pope is the successor of Peter. Logical conclusion: the Pope is the head of the Church.

Again, on pre-election/predestination: God wants all to be saved and gives us the grace to have faith and works. However, we can choose to refuse God's grace. "I have set before you life or death, light or darkness..." (I'm paraphrasing; for some odd reason my Bible is not on my Mom's desk...)

I can't say that I have given myself fully to God- I think that takes a lifetime, but I don't have a problem admitting that whatever I've done in accordance with God's will has been of God's initiative. To say otherwise would be as ridiculous as to claim that your body is of your own invention.

I know this is a long letter, but I wanted to discuss all the questions you raised.

God bless!

Catherine Ann

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 14, 2003.


Dear Chris,

Catholic teaching does not "rule over" the Bible, because Catholic teaching and the Bible are precisely one and the same thing! Jesus gave His teaching, in the form of oral tradition, not written documents, to the Apostles. What they received from Jesus is what they taught. This was the teaching of the Church from the very beginning. It was also the Word of God from the very beginning, since they received it directly from Jesus, who was and is God. Later, the Apostles quite naturally mentioned some of this teaching of the Church, some of this Word of God, in their correspondence, and in other documents they wrote. Still later, the Church decided to take these writings, which were already the Church's teaching, and which were already the Word of God, and bind them into a book. They did so, and called the book "the Bible" (which literally means "the Book". Once that was done, the contents of the Bible continued to be the Word of God, as it had always been, and it continued to be the teaching of the Church, as it had always been. Anything that was not the teaching of the Church (and there were many such writings from New Testament times) was not put into the Bible by the Church. Therefore the Word of God and the Teaching of His Church remain one and the same, and cannot possibly conflict in any way. Something cannot conflict with itself! In contrast, Protestant beliefs conflict widely on virtually every issue, which demonstrates that (1) they cannot be in accord with the teaching of the original Church, and (2) therefore, they cannot be in accord with the Word of God, which is the teaching of the original Christian Church.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 14, 2003.



Jim

You asked, how do we know if a conclusion is truth? God tells us that we should compare scripture with scritpture, or rightly dividing the word of truth. If somebody claims to have truth then we need to test that conclusion with the entire Bible. Then you will find everything harmonizing beautifully, assuming the Holy Spirit has opened your eyes and is guiding you. Once we find verses that contradict we must keep studying and search all scriptures that apply to our subject.

We must keep in mind, God speaks in parables and if He doesn't give us eyes to see and ears to hear then everything we read will sound like contradictions. We must be very careful, hummble and pray for wisdom. If you would read certain scriptures in the Greek, for example, the verse could be understood more than one way. So which path do we take? We keep searching the scriptures and collect them all. The truth would be, the conclusion in which all the scriptures harmonize together. This is hard work. Believe me I wish I could say that I'm smart, but I will not take any credit if I begin to see and understand many of the scriptures.

Any how I fear God big time to start rambling things and making conclusions if I didn't research them. Now God also has a time table in when He will unseal certain scriptures. Let's say, things we have read 20 years ago was too difficult to understand or couldn't detect what God was trying to tell us. As we get closer to the last day, God will begin to open up many of these verses and we will begin to understand them.

A perfect example, we read Daniel:12: 8,9:" And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up in sealed till the time of the end."

In God's revelation, which is the Bible, God has a great many things to say about the end of the world and the details that lead up to the end of the world.

Catherine

I thank you for your input, perhaps you can clear up the steps to salvation. Can we know if we will be going to heaven before we die? I'll appreciate if you can use scriptures to explain this.

God Bless! Be patient, I am trying to understand certain things.

-- Christian soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 14, 2003.


Dear Christian,

Your approach to truth seems very self-centered. You said:

If somebody claims to have truth then we need to test that conclusion with the entire Bible. Then you will find everything harmonizing beautifully, assuming the Holy Spirit has opened your eyes and is guiding you.

Perhaps "everything harmonizes beautifully" in your own mind, but there is more to Christianity than your own mind. You can't just close your eyes to the bigger picture, and expect to find personal "inner truth" like a Buddhist. In the bigger picture, those who approach scriptural truth exactly as you do have fragmented into thousands of conflicting denominations. You are just one of these conflicting fragments. Every one of them thinks that all of their scriptural interpretations "harmonize beautifully", yet no two of them have the same set of beliefs. This is not "harmonizing beautifully". This is doctrinal chaos; and you are caught up in this chaotic system without even realizing it, because you only look inward, and refuse to see the obvious lack of harmony and unity that is all around you, permeating your whole tradition. More than a billion Catholics worldwide have the same Bible, the same Mass, the same beliefs, the same priesthood, the same sacraments, the same scriptural truth. Now there is something that harmonizes beautifully! If it is truth you seek, the Holy Bible tells you where to find it - in the Church of the Living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. And you cannot find it any other place or any other way, as the history of denominational religion clearly demonstrates.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 14, 2003.


Paul The difference between us is that the Bible is my only authority because this is the voice of God and if God gives me ample proof that He has given me a new heart and resurrected soul, then nothing shall seperate me from God. This action, which I take no credit whatsoever, was the action of Almighty God! And now I am part of the living church of Christ in which He is still building.

I keep asking this over and over, why do you not distiguish the physical church with the spiritual church? I believe this is the core of the problem. You feel that the Catholic Church is thee one church of Christ and if you are not part of it then you are going to Hell! So if you are part of the Catholic Church do you have any guarantee that the members will be going to heaven?

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 15, 2003.


The Catholic Church does not teach that membership in the Catholic Church guarantees salvation, or that separation from the Catholic Church necessarily results in condemnation.

There is ONE Church founded by Jesus Christ for all men. That Church has both physical and spiritual characteristics, but it is ONE holy, universal, apostolic Church, not two, and certainly not thousands.

Christian, the difference between us is that you try to make the Bible your only authority, while I follow what the Bible teaches - that Jesus gave authority to his Church to be the sole channel of truth and grace for the human race. The Bible is full of passages which affirm the Church's authority. It contains no statements to the effect that a book is to be our sole authority. "Bible only" Christianity is unbiblical Christianity, and unbiblical Christianity is at best incomplete Christianity. Like all Protestants, you simply dance around the core issue - that a "Bible only" approach to Christianity always results in conflict, fragmentation, and false doctrine - exactly the opposite of what Jesus described for His Church - and therefore CANNOT be the will of God. Until you face that obvious fact, and deal with it, you will simply continue to wander about in the groundless traditions of men, wearing blinders to avoid seeing all the other denominations who are doing the same.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 15, 2003.


Hi Christian Soldier,

The steps to salvation? I'll give it a shot. Let's illustrate this with a guy called Al (my brother Al will appreciate this!).

1. God gives Al the grace to be saved at some point in his life. 2. Al is free to accept or reject God's grace. --If Al dies while rejecting God's saving grace, he will not be saved. 3. Al accepts this grace, and lives in grace for a time. 4. Al sins mortally (he robs a bank) and "falls away" from grace. --If Al dies while fallen from grace, he will not be saved. 5. Al is restored to grace through the sacrament of Confession. (He returns the money, as well, and serves his time.) --Al could also have been restored through God's renewal of the gift of grace, but Al is a Catholic who wants to be freed from his sins as soon as possible (he knows might die that very day) and realizes that God has promised to forgive sins through his Church. 6. Al dies while in a state of grace. 7. Al is judged by God and goes to heaven.

Steps 4 and 5 can be repeated indefinitely during Al's life- of course, if they are, Al will not attain the degree of holiness that would be possible if he was constantly in a state of grace.

Your question: Can we know if we will be going to heaven before we die? Answer: No. We will go to heaven if we die in a state of grace, but there is no way to predict whether or not we will. We must place our hope and trust in God and keep subduing our sinful desires.

1 Corinthians 4:3 "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God."

Luke 8:13 "Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial."

Phillipians 2:12 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Matthew 24:12-13 "And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved."

Related verses: Romans 11:22; 1 Corinthians 9:27, 10:11-12; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-27; Ezekiel 18:24

Hope this helps.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 15, 2003.



CS:
I stayed out of this thread a few days. Why you would ask for another thread after the previous waste of our efforts, just to come back with more of the same errors to impose on us, I wonder.

You were wrong before and you're not deserving of any recap. Why are we recapping your poor interpretation of scripture? Here you again insist: ''Paul The difference between us is that the Bible is my only authority because this is the voice of God and if God gives me ample proof that He has given me a new heart and resurrected soul, then nothing shall seperate me from God.

It reflects your blind faith that you know things from the Bible alone. It's false. The ''ample proof'' of your ''voice'' of God is delusionary. And your ''new heart and resurrected soul'' are filled with false doctrines & heretical errors. They can't have God's approval, nor Christ's Church's assent. There's a very serious sidelight to your misconception about the Bible.

The Church owns that Word of God. It was written for her faithful; not for just anybody to claim as their sole rule of faith. You live in a condition close to heresy!< (Actually, it's invincible ignorance.) You can't have ample proof, and you aren't in the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ founded only ONE true Church. She did not evaporate; she lives today.

There is NO ''invisible Church''. That's an invention of your feeble biblical interpretations. Same as your unwarranted support for predestination of the damned.

You get only so many recaps. Finish this. Don't impose any more ridiculous soldierisms on Catholics. No more ''recaps,'' please!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 15, 2003.


Ah, come on, Eugene. The last thread was taking minutes to load with my connection, it was so long. I glad to start on a new sheet.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 15, 2003.

Paul says "The Catholic Church does not teach that membership in the Catholic Church guarantees salvation"BR>
This is what your official teaching says:

"CCC #846 Outside the Church there is no salvation - Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

What do you mean it doesn't teach it?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 15, 2003.

Oh I'm sorry, I misread the statement.(not wearing contacts) I thought he was saying that there is 'no salvation outside the church'

-- D.O. (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 15, 2003.

That's right, "I glad." Oops.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 15, 2003.


I did not post the comment above, and it reflects none of my beliefs. While we're on the topic, though, have any of you read Black Like Me by John Griffiths (I think)? I loved that book- it was amazing, especially considering that it had an explicitly Catholic point of view. It is rather explicit in places, so it's not for kids.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 15, 2003.

By the second "explicit," I meant explicit violence and other nasty stuff, not Catholicism.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 15, 2003.

Catherine According to your belief in salvation, how did the Old testement believers get save? Or did they?

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), June 16, 2003.

Eugene Was the church of Ephesus, the church of Smyrna, the church of Pergamos, the church of Thyatira, the church of Sardis, the church of Philadelphia, and the church of Laodiceans-- Catholic Churches?

These were some of the first churches of the New Testament period written in Revelations 2 thru 3.

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), June 16, 2003.


Soldier;
''Eugene Was the church of Ephesus, the church of Smyrna, the church of Pergamos, the church of Thyatira, the church of Sardis, the church of Philadelphia, and the church of Laodiceans-- Catholic Churches?''

Glad you asked, and I hope you understand. First:

Christ is the Founder of only One Church. We see him saying so in Matthew 16:18; --All ''churches'' as we see written of in the NT are the apostles' convert communities; every one. The faith was carried to them by the saints, and all became incorporated into the one Church.

Paul, writing to the church in Rome, that epistle to the Romans, knew this community was comprised of all the faithful who had been baptised into Christ's Holy Church. Not an autonomous community, or ''denomination''. The One, Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church. In Revelations the seven churches of Asia Minor were just as incorporated into the Catholic (Universal) church. The letters John would write, at Jesus' command, to the seven churches, were to either correct, or praise & encourage them; each as a separate community of the faithful inside his ONE Church. They all were commanded to conform to his Will; expressed through the apostles to this day. In the successors to these first missionaries.

Secondly; When John was writing Revelations Peter was already his Pope, the bishop of Rome. There he was martyred by the empire, called Babylon in Revelations. He asked to be crucified with his head pointing down to the ground, his feet upwards on a cross. There he died for Christ, as many thousands of other martyrs did. There is Peter's Holy See; to this day the Seat of the successors to Peter. Our Catholic Popes.

You have to love Church history! God is glorified in it; and we have to remain loyal to His Holy Church which first saw the light of day in those mission journeys of the apostles. Today we call this glorious history ''Apostolic Tradition'', CS.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 16, 2003.


So Eugene, how do we know if the New Testament is true? What if some of it is true?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

If I idolize the bible, Eugene, you idolize a building, a organization.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

Hello, D.O.
I expected an answer from the soldier boy, not you. Why are you mixing?

''Eugene, how do we know if the New Testament is true? What if some of it is true? --and--I idolize the bible, Eugene, you idolize a building, a organization.''

David, these are the remarks of a lost soul. Are you discouraged? Have I hurt your feelings, and now you feel the need to bite me? Bite me like a piranha fishie; *Gotcha, Gene, dirty Catholic Rat!!! *

You never knew what the Catholic faith was capable of, did you? You expected all Catholics to fall under your Bible-believing feet and say, ''HELP! The Bible is killing me! Here, you can have my rosary, David Ortiz, Great Guru of the Bible!''

Maybe tomorrow, D.O.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 18, 2003.


Eugene you can never discourage me, You will only prove your ignorance an arrogance everytime you reply. If the bible is worthless as you put it, why do you still quote from it? Quote from your church fathers. Or your catechism. I feel like your getting mad.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 18, 2003.

David,
You are arrogant to come here, into a Catholic forum intending to steal the faithful away. It's your only motive; an arrogant motive. The devil took you for his agent; and you didn't even resist. But, I know you're still just a kid, so you can be saved.

That's why my words are blunt & straight in your face. Not to act tough; to make you open your eyes to how ridiculous you are.

I love the Holy Bible; and never said it was ''worthless''.

I think it's worthless for people like you. You haven't a clue what's in the Bible. ''Isolate verses.'' Hold on; you have to do this, and that, and then ''you get it.''

What kind of idiot taught you this? You've been taught by false Christians, David. The way you can tell the false doctrine is how no love is lost on God.

You forgot to say, ''I love God''. All you love is reading the Bible. You love false interpretations of scripture enough to die for them.

I'm a faithful Catholic; like your own ancestors. I love God. That's what the Church teaches us, LOVE for God, through His Holy Son Jesus Christ.

Why didn't your ministers teach you that??? All they ever teach is, ''Read your Bible.'' They idolize the book, and forget Jesus Christ.

You can still be saved; but you're your own worst enemy. You resist the TRUTH.

Catholics love the truth. Tell me the truth and I'll follow you, D.O.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 18, 2003.


Hi Christian Soldier,

Sorry I've been offline for a couple days. You asked how people in the Old Testament were saved.

Short answer: Jesus died for everyone, in every age. God gave them an unwritten (except for the Jews) law to obey and the grace to be saved.

Long answer: God is outside of time; he's infinite. (I love this explanation.)

If you think of time as a fourth dimension, this can be easier to see. Imagine the universe, 3D and large as life, slowly shrinking. Make it about the size of an aquarium. God is bigger than the universe, right? Now, this glass box with all galaxies, solar systems and planets inside it is the universe at one instant. The universe at the next instant will be set beside this one, and the universe after that, until there is a chain of universes as long as time. (Time is just the measure of motion, right?) Now, shrink this "universe-in-an-aquarium" chain again, and flatten it, until it looks like an old-fashioned piece of film- a sequence of still pictures that, when seen by humans at a high speed, give us the world we live in. God created this piece of film out of nothing, and he knows everything about every character the movie features; even the credits and the scenery are planned for His purpose. God's actions can affect parts of the movie (if he decides to let a sparrow die, for example, or a hair fall from someone's head) or the entire movie at once. When God came into the movie as a character, He was doing both, and his death was like turning on the lights in the room where the strip of film was pinned to a desk- it illuminates the entire script with light, or grace. People who lived before the character of God came into the movie were still saved by His death, because it was an action that happened outside of time.

I haven't looked at Scriptures to reference this, and I hope I didn't throw you by rambling off in all directions. I happen to like sci- fi, and Catholic philosophy gives me a chance to ponder the questions of Life, the Universe and Everything... in a meaningful way. If you don't like it, read the short answer. If I didn't answer what you meant to ask, ask again.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 18, 2003.


Eugene You stated that the 7 churches were Catholic Churches. Have you read the language God uses? What makes you think today's churches are any better? These churches don't even exist any more because God destroyed them.

Here I'll write what God says:

Revelations chapter2:

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are NOT, and hast found them LIARS:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. ....

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. ....

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat IS: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. ....

chapter 3:

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art DEAD. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to DIE: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. ETC.....

God tells us here that the churches have no assurance. Once the churches teach unfaithfully even if they teach half a Bible, this makes them false prophets, and are under the wrath of God.

God does prophesy the End of the Church age. It is a spiritual destruction as God allows the true believers to be driven out. The churches become spiritually desolate because the Holy Spirit no longer works in the churches and Satan rules in them. If I am mistaken, can you explain some of these verses which have to do with the last days?

Revelation 11:7:"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

And here in the language of II Corinthians 10:6:"And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

II Thessalonians 2:3, 4 speaks of it in this way:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

The Bible gives further proof of the teaching of the Great Tribulation and its awful impact upon the end time churches and congregations. This is set forth by the language of Matthew 24:15, 16. There God declares:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains."

Verse 21 assures us that this is so, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

However, in verse 15, God takes us into the Book of Daniel. In the Book of Daniel, we find further proof that the Great Tribulation is at the end of time. This is taught by Daniel 12:8-10:"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

When we turn to the Book of Daniel, we must find the verses that relate to Matthew 24:15. The key phrases are abomination of desolation and "standing in the holy place."

Two verses in the Book of Daniel identify with these phrases. The first is Daniel 11:31, where we read: "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

In Daniel 11:31 the Bible is prophesying concerning a time when the sanctuary of strength would be polluted, and the daily would be taken away, replaced by the abomination of desolation. We know that the sanctuary of strength must be where God is worshiped. It is here that the daily sacrifices and the daily candlesticks are being utilized in service to God. The only place that can be in view is the temple. But according to this verse at some future date the worship of God would be replaced by the abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24:15 instructs us that this dreadful event must identify with the Great Tribulation that comes just before the end of the world. There is also a second reference in the Book of Daniel that speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. In Daniel 12:11 we read:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

When we look at this reference to the abomination of desolation recorded in the Book of Daniel, there is much more we can learn about the Great Tribulation. First of all in this verse, there is a time reference. The time reference is 1290 days. If anyone is curious about 1290 days, I can talk about that another time.

All of these passages tell us in different ways that the End of the Church age will come. We see the believers in the churches killed (spiritually) in Revelation 11:7. God will "revenge" the disobedience of the churches after their work is done. The phrase "when your obedience is fulfilled" matches with Revelation 11:7, which says, "when they shall have finished their testimony."

The II Thessalonians 2 passage tells us the death of the churches comes with Satan ruling in the churches. So, all of these passages are telling us the same thing, namely, that the End of the Church age will come at some point.

We already see the signs in the other denominations, and a big clue with the Catholic Church is how God is exposinf all the dirt behind closed doors with Priests raping boys. I can't imagine how many more are out there that we don't know about.

Could Christ return any day now?



-- C. Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 18, 2003.


CS:I'll repeat,

Christ founded only HIS Church. Not a diverse mixture of little ''churches''

If you see anything written which shows Jesus founding seven or more churches, and that includes the Asia Minor ones, show us. What you take for the ''destroyed'' churches are local diocesan churches under a bishop, or ''angel''.

They aren't destroyed as such; some may have fallen into heresy, and/or schism. Asia Minor is present- day Turkey. In Turkey, Christian schismatic bishops are now called ''Metropolitans'', I believe. Mostly Greek Orthodox. Our Lord founded the only True Church; and her Pope was Peter, but many schismatics wanted autonomous rule, and rejected Rome. Just like you protestants. They are not in Christ's Holy Church anymore either. But she is still One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic. The only one Christ founded.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 18, 2003.


It's typical of you; without credentials or skill to interpret scripture & presume to teach others, forcing your amateur opinions on faithful Catholics without their consent.

The Book of Revelations is the most dangerous ground for amateurs, since even learned men have failed to see into its mysteries. But a greenhorn like you is sure to announce to the world, Oh! It's so clear to me, I have the Holy Spirit! You don't see your own presumption; which makes you doubly ridiculous. Is there an ounce of humility to be found in your soul anywhere, CS???

As for the catholic Church, little man, she is that great kingdom Christ described in His parable of the sower. --

''While men were asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the blade sprang up and brought for fruit (saved souls) then the weeds appeared as well (even evil priests, CS; they're human); --Matt 13 :25.

''Sir, did not thou sow good seed in thy field?'' (His Church) ''How then does it have weeds?'' (Evil Catholics.) ''An enemy has done this.'' said Christ, the Head of his Church. A well-meaning but dumb guy like you, CS: ''Wilt thou have us go & gather them up?'' (--Sure; you want to destroy the Church.)

''No,'' says Our Lord. ''Lest in gathering the weeds (priests who molest boys) you root up the wheat (faithful priests and good Catholics) along with them. Let them grow together until the harvest. And at harvest time, I will say to the reapers, Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn; but gather the wheat into my barn'' (Verse :30).

Because you're so anxious to gather up all who sin in the Catholic Church, CS-- It would almost seem you consider yourself free of sin. Are you?

Not only must you confess you're a sinner; but I must inform you you're a very poor biblical interpreter. You can't see what is plain as a zit on your nose. But you preen like a peacock around here.

Why don't you try another pastime? The Book of Revelations for you is like brain surgery to a cowboy. Not up your alley.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 18, 2003.


Eugene

I love you Bro! Boy your true fruits keep comming out. Do you use a whip when you teach? You are right with the harvest. God is commanding all true believers(the wheat) to come out of the churches being ruled by Satin (the tares). You know I was reading the Book of Jeremiah and God spoke to me through the scriptures. God is prophesing events that will happen today. God doesn't change, He is the same yesterday , today, and forever! Listen to how HIS wrath will fall on the churches!

Jeremiah: CHAPTER 2:

4 Hear ye the word of the LORD, O house of Jacob, and all the families of the house of Israel: 5 Thus saith the LORD, What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and are become vain?...

7 And I brought you into a plentiful country, to eat the fruit thereof and the goodness thereof; but when ye entered, ye defiled my land, and made mine heritage an abomination. 8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit. 9 Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the LORD, and with your children's children will I plead.....

CHAPTER 4:

22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge......

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.....

CHAPTER 5:

21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:....

29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? 30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?.....

CHAPTER 6:

1 O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction....

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken. 18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them. 19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.....

CHAPTER 7:

26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.....

30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. 31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. 33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.

34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.....

In the Book of Jeremiah God speaks about His wrath on Jeruselum and Judea which took place at that time. If you read this Book carefully it is as if God is speaking about the Churches, pictured by Jeruselum and Judea. Also some of the contents speaks about a future event. God is giving us a picture in what He will do to the churches and congregations.

But in those days nobody wanted to listen to Jeremiah, they claimed he was a false prophet, just the way you tore me up, but I forgive you brother Eugene, but please repent and stop mocking God and teaching lies to everybody because you are about to commit mass suicides!!!!

I'll pray for you. Peace..



-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), June 19, 2003.


Dear Soldier and Scholar:
Thanks for your good wishes. Did all of the task require you dredge up seventy-seven passages from the Bible???? I've read the Bible, CS.

It does not require you to plaster us with this snowstorm of scripture, Boy. Learn to speak intelligibly. It's hard for some people, we know. But cut & pasting of yards out of your Bible? Makes you feel untouchable?

You maintain: ''Eugene You stated that the 7 churches were Catholic Churches. Have you read the language God uses? What makes you think today's churches are any better? These churches don't even exist any more because God destroyed them.''

PROVE IT, Bible scholar.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 20, 2003.


"God is commanding all true believers(the wheat) to come out of the churches being ruled by Satin (the tares)." COME OUT, and do what?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 20, 2003.


The egotist we know as Christian Soldier actually fancies himself a prophet. Quoting the OT he lets off a gasbag:

''But in those days nobody wanted to listen to Jeremiah, they claimed he was a false prophet, just the way you tore me up, (HE's equal to Jeremiah. --Yes.) --But I forgive you brother Eugene, but please repent and stop mocking God (Looks like I've mocked God, no question, Jeremiah says so.) and teaching lies (The prophet figures I'm a liar.) to everybody because you are about to commit mass suicides!!!! (Isn't that a bit round the bend; even for a galloping prophet? Guess not.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 20, 2003.


Wow!
''You know I was reading the Book of Jeremiah and God spoke to me through the scriptures.''

A soldier who makes up his mind; No matter what my fertile imagination might make out of the scripture, it has to be correct. After all, God speaks to me.--

+++++++++++++++++++++

Yeah; I suppose the Rev. Jim Jones had similar assurances when he called his flock of several hundred together, announcing his ''truth'' from the Good Book. ''Now, all of us; you believers, men women, children, and me, your preacher man,

Have your paper cups ready, I'll pour you all the Kool-Ai d --Isn't that good ? So, he poisoned them all.
Bible Christian; God spoke to him. Onward Christian soldiers.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 20, 2003.


GG

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 21, 2003.

Gail

These were the scriptures and not my words. After reading those scriptures, now we could understand this verse: 1Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" You see when we read the Bible, it is God speaking to us. When the Bible was completed, God ended the Book by saying that this is my complete prophecy, do not add to it or remove from the Bible. We are to walk by faith and not by sight. So if you want to understand God's next move, trust the Bible and read it 24 seven! Many prophecies in the Bible were sealed because they were ment to be understood towards the end as we get closer to the last day.

As God opens our eyes we begin to understand many scriptures that were too difficult. So how can we say that the church's doctrines have all the answers. If they do not dare look at these verses. How could the church leaders of the past even understand some of the end time scriptures? If God doesn't open our eyes will not see spiritual truthes from the Bible.

How do we know truths are sealed till the end? God says so! In Daniel:12:9 "And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. "

You may be a faithful catholic who obeys their rules, but the bible says in Romans:3:4 "God forbid yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; ......" God is testing everybody to see how faithful we are and if we truly love the Lord. If you found one or more teachings unbiblical to the Bible, will you continue to be part of such false teaching? Read about the 7 churches in Revelations, God is serious and if we do not tremmble before the Word of God, then the truth is not within us.

God has written the Bible for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear (the elect). We must compare scripture with scripture to find truth. God recorded specific events to tell us future events. For example everything we read about ancient Isreal, God was prohesying the New Testament Churches. God gave the churches a big test and they failed. Let me show you what God tells us in the scriptures:

The first verse we should examine is I Timothy 3:15:"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

The important question we should be concerned with in this verse is whether the phrase "the pillar and ground of the truth" is modifying the word "church" or the word "God" Usually it is taught that it modifies the word "church." It is understood, therefore, that it is the local church that is the pillar and ground of truth. This teaching, therefore, can give the church the idea that it has great authority. Remember, in the original, Geek form, this verse would be gramatically correct to go in both ways. But here is the test God gives the Church, which way will they go?

Is the church the pillar and ground of the truth? Or is God the pillar and ground of truth? The pride in your heart will choose the Church the pillar and ground. What an insult to God! The Bible should be your authority. Unless you think the Pope and Bishops and Priests are holier than you. Perhaps this is why every denomination including the Catholics hold on to different doctrines.

God is blinding them because they give themselves authority over the Bible which is God's voice! They failed the test, just like ancient Isreal did and went after other gods. They didn't want to listen to Jeremiah, So God used the enemy to destroy them, just the way He will use Satin to destroy the churches. God's judgment has begun and will transition to judgment day. This is the great tribulations.

So how can the church be the foundation of truth. Only God can be that foundation. The Bible says it very plainly in I Corinthians 3:11:"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. " The pillar and ground of truth can not modify the word "church." These words must modify the word "God." The church of "God the pillar and ground of truth." Christ is the Word, He is the truth. His name is True.

How could we say that faulty sinful men gathering in some formal religious meeting can be the foundation of truth? 1Corin 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Our minds are tainted win sin, even when we become saved. My only goal is for everybody to read some of these scriptures and prayfully ask for understanding. I don't think I am a brilliant man, I just want to know what these scriptures mean.

God is the author of the Bible. Holy men of old spoke as the Holy Spirit moved them. God could have easily phrased this verse so that there would be no question at all concerning who or what is the pillar and ground of the truth. But the way it is written allows either possibility. The church is the pillar and ground of the truth or God is the pillar and ground of the truth.

If somebody tells you the Bible can't be your authority, that is like saying no way can God reveal truth to you, only the church can. I am not talking about the spiritual church (the elect)which is the true church and are safe and secure in God's arms. In I Peter 5. In this chapter, God gives instruction to the overseers of the congregation. He instructs them that they are to feed the flock, that is, they are to carefully teach the congregation the truths of the Bible. God further instructs in I Peter 5, verse 3:"Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

So if you are one of God's elect, and have ears to hear, yourself is the church and can fellowship with others of like mind or with Christ by reading the Bible and putting your trust in God instead of man. And our jobs are to faithfully declare the whole council of God to all and let God do the drawing. I bet I spoke about God's wrath and hell more than you have ever heard in church. If we are teaching just the love of God, then that is half of a gospel. We are teaching lies.

Is God commanding us to depart out of the church? God tells us so. Here is the command: We read in Mark 13:14 "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" OR Luke 21:21 "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto *."

Spiritually through the scriptures we can prove Jeruselum and Judea is refering to all the Churches and denominations.

Spiritually "mountains" can be referred to a kingdom, so we are to flee to Christ. In other words put your trust in Christ alone. This can be seen in these verses:

Psalms 11:1" Psalms 48:1 " May God give us wisdom....God bless all

P.S.

Psalms 111:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."

Proverbs 15:33 "The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility."

Isa 11:2 "And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;"

Eugene

All I have to say is 1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? "

Peace brother I still Love you!!!!!!!!!!! Keep reading the Bible you may be shocked to find things you never read before because we are living in a time very very near the return of Christ, and every prophecy will be coming to light if you hummble yourself.



-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 22, 2003.


Jmj
Hello, "Embasador" (calling yourself "Christian soldier").

I see that you have been trying to "hold court" here for a couple of weeks. I haven't looked at any of your posts until today. I see that I should have looked sooner, so that I could have pitched in to give you the spanking you deserved days ago. Besides what I told you on that new thread (earlier today) about the need for you to start following the forum rules, I have to tell you on this thread that you are one very ignorant fellow.

You wrote the following offensive and deeply flawed words [with my emphasis added]:
"The first verse we should examine is I Timothy 3:15: 'But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.'
"The important question we should be concerned with in this verse is whether the phrase 'the pillar and ground of the truth' is modifying the word 'church' or the word 'God.' Usually it is taught that it modifies the word 'church.' ... Remember, in the original, Geek form, this verse would be gramatically correct to go in both ways. But here is the test God gives the Church, which way will they go?"

Embasador, what in the world do you mean by the word "Remember"? One can't "remember" what one never knew before. We cannot have known (and thus "remembered") that "this verse would be grammatically correct to go both ways" ... BECAUSE IT CANNOT "go both ways"!!!
I just explained this to "another" person on a different forum thread a month or two ago. I believe that it was an Italian guy -- possibly YOU, Mr. "Embasador" (Christian Soldier). Did you come back to post the same damnable error today under a different name?

You continued: "Is the church the pillar and ground of the truth? Or is God the pillar and ground of truth? The pride in your heart will choose the Church the pillar and ground. What an insult to God! The Bible should be your authority."

No, pal. No insult at all. We don't "choose" anything. We simply inform you about what the Greek cases of the nouns make clear to anyone who has the courage to face the truth: the phrase "pillar and ground of truth" is linked with "the Church," not with "God." [Do you need for me to spell out the Greek words again, to prove this?]

It's not the Bible that is our "authority" on this, but a Greek grammar. Moreover, no book -- not even the Bible -- can be an "authority," but only specially designated human beings (the successors of Peter and the apostles -- the pope and bishops) can and must be our "authority," regardless of how "holy" or sinful they may be. Why? Because only leaders who have been commissioned by God himself can authentically interpret and hand down the meaning of God's written and oral Word, his revelation.

You went on: "Perhaps this is why every denomination including the Catholics hold on to different doctrines."

The Catholic Church is not a "denomination." It is the only Church that Jesus himself founded -- which is why it teaches the fullness of the truth without the slightest bit of error mixed in. But it is your protestantism that is shredded into tens of thousands of denominations, each with a different mixture of falsehood and truth.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 22, 2003.


Good post, John,
To CS, let me reply; when you begin so: ''All I have to say is 1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God,'' and so on, we all know you lie.

Just because your errors and dumb biblical distortions are denounced here, doesn't make you the victim of hatred. I'm perfectly justified telling you you serve the devil. It doesn't mean I hate you. I feel concern for you, I wish you'd wake up, and start worrying about the falsehoods you've embraced. Because you HAVE; the silly applications of holy scripture you pass around here are dangerous. You work contrary to God's Word, and debase the truth.

This has always been apparent to us. In response we've confronted the sick things you preached. Not from hatred, from love of the truth.

You can be sure I have no complaint for myself. If you accuse me falsely of hatred, I don't grow angry; I just let it slide. Your opinion of me is irrelevant. Your evil opinions of the Catholic faith are obnoxious to me. But I wouldn't wish you damned for them. Just the reverse; I pray you'll be given God's light. Then His forgiveness. I love Him; and I love my neighbor; so I hope to see him delivered from the power of the devil. That's YOU.

If you remained in his power, and I really felt hatred for you, wouldn't I be glad? To see you damned??? But I love my neighbor, and hope to see you free of the devil's influence, so then you've misjudged me. But that's not relevant to the discussions in this thread.

In this thread we're happy just to neutralise the evil you bring here. The snares of Satan you lay, and the unholy things you've said about Jesus Christ's Church. All I and the others do is fight evil. If you bring it in our door, we have no other choice but to reject it. To kick you out along with your false doctrine. It's too bad, CS; what did you want, a license to destroy the faith of the apostles?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 23, 2003.


off

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 23, 2003.

John

Are you a Priest?

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 24, 2003.


Embasador, I will answer your question truthfully, if you will (truthfully) explain why you are asking it!
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 24, 2003.

If you are a priest I was wondering if you knew how super serious it is to hold that position. Malachi:2:7 "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should SEEK THE LAW at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. "

And anybody who believes they were called for a position like that better approach the Bible with fear and trembling! I would think and pray very earnestly to God to make sure this is a task God intended for me to do. You know a position like that, if one mistakenly teaches incorrectly, they will be causing massive suicides.

Matter of fact the Bible delares that if such person ends up in hell they will recieve more stripes of punishment. Thier tornment will be horrific. Luke 12:47"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

God examines every teacher very carefully and is very strict with the priests, pasters, decons etc. I believe history will repeat itself, that is why God gave us so many examples of historical events. Hosea:4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

I was just curious to know, that's all. How well do you know your Greek?

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), June 26, 2003.



I held off reply, expecting John to give you a prompt answer. It's now after midnight.

''--And anybody who believes they were called for a position like that better approach the Bible with fear and trembling.'' A priest.

Who came first, Chris the Soldier? A Bible or Christ's holy priesthood? Is a priest ordained by the Church of Jesus Christ supposed to offer you deference on account of your adoration for the Bible?

Are you higher than the Church? Why do you promote the Bible? --Please explain this superiority.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 27, 2003.


Bad i!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 27, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Christian Soldier -- or I should say, "Paolo" (the same person who caused so much consternation on this thread).
I will respond to some of the things you have stated.

If you are a priest I was wondering if you knew how super serious it is to hold that position.

I don't understand what you are implying by this comment. I don't "hold [a] position." I simply relate the grammatical facts, which reveal the true meaning of the verse. You can take 'em (if you are smart) or leave 'em (if you are "super-seriously" foolish).

And anybody who believes they were called for a position like that [the priesthood] better approach the Bible with fear and trembling!

I think that "awe" or "reverence" would be a better way to describe it. As long as a priest is faithful to Catholic truth -- interpreting Bible verses within the parameters of the Catechism's teachings -- he won't go wrong, and he needn't be in "fear and trembling." He receives special sacramental graces through his ordination.

I would think and pray very earnestly to God to make sure this is a task God intended for me to do. You know a position like that, if one mistakenly teaches incorrectly, they will be causing massive suicides.

Actually, you should read your own words and live by them, Paolo. I know for a fact that you are doing "a task God intended [NOT] for [you] to do." He never intended anyone to preach protestant errors at a Catholic discussion forum. Although you aren't going to "be causing massive suicides" by the bad things you are doing here, Soldier Boy, you may draw one lurker into your serious spiritual error, and that would be an even worse fate for you and for her than physical suicide.

God examines every teacher very carefully and is very strict with the priests, pastors, deacons etc..

And will he be "very strict" with you, Soldier, giving you "many stripes" for telling an untruth here about the meaning of 1 Tim 3:15?

I was just curious to know, that's all. How well do you know your Greek? I am not fluent in Greek, but I studied it at a Jesuit university, and I know enough to be certain that what I have told you about 1 Tim 3:15 is correct. Since you force me to prove this again, I will do so. After I sign off on this message, I will duplicate what I wrote to you in April about this verse, on the other thread. Please read it carefully this time, so that you don't make the same mistake for a third time.

God bless you.
John
PS: I am a layman, not a priest.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 27, 2003.


[This is my message of April 16, 2003, as posted on the other thread (except for one additional bracketed note, in italics]. Notice how your quoted words that I have just placed in "bold type," below, were exactly the same on the other thread (as "Paolo") as they are above (as "Christian Soldier").]

Jmj
Hello, Paolo. [vze3ffrz@verizon.net]

You wrote to us:
"Now if 'the church is the pillar and ground of truth,' [that] contradicts ... all the verses I gave you, [so] let's see where [you] went wrong. The first verse we should examine is I Timothy 3:15, which declares: 'But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God - the pillar and ground of the truth.' Is the church the pillar and ground of the truth? Or is God the pillar and ground of truth?"
In a later message, you added, "The pillar and ground of truth cannot modify the word 'church.' These words must modify the word 'God.'"

Paolo, in your opening message on this thread, you said that the Bible was the pillar and ground of the truth. Later, you decided to argue that God is the pillar and ground of the truth. You were wrong both times.

An examination of the Greek written by St. Paul shows that, as Catholics here have explained to you, it is the CHURCH that is the pillar and ground of the truth. Please look at the following (the Greek and your translation):

"... estin ekklEsia Theou zOntos, stulos kai edraiOma tEs alEtheias."
"... is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."
[stulos = pillar, column, prop, support]
[edraiOma = stay, prop, support, ground]

Notice that the Greek words that are in italics (Theou zOntos) are genitive (meaning, "of the living God"), while the words that are in bold type (ekklEsia ... stulos ... edraiOma) are nominative.
Thus "stulos" and "edraiOma" are "appositives" of "ekklEsia" -- all being nominative. [If St. Paul had intended "pillar and ground" to refer to "God," he would have written them in the genitive case too, not in the nominative.]
This proves, beyond any doubt, that the words "pillar and and ground" refer to Church, not to "the living God."

Paolo, everything that Paul and Mike H, and Michael (pickandpen) have told you here is correct. [Mike H was even right to tell you not to write such long messages!]
You wrote: "The Holy Spirit guides me into truth and understanding. I take not one bit of credit." Actually, Paolo, the Holy Spirit is trying to lead you into the truth by bringing you to this forum, exposing you to what we are telling you -- i.e., the fullness of the truth. It is heartbreaking that an Italian gentleman like you could have slipped into errors, falling from the Catholic Church of your ancestors. You are now believing only part of the truth, with some truths missing and some error mixed in.
May the Lord lead you to (or back to) the true Church, the one Jesus founded, the Catholic Church.

God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.



-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 27, 2003.


Wow, "Christian Soldier" = "Paolo" ?! Mama mia, an Italian Protestant ?! What a disgrace.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), June 28, 2003.

Interestingly, "embasador" seems to be a Ladino word. The Spanish word is embajador. (Not that I'm a great linguist, I simply got this from online dictionaries.) Of course it could simply be a weird spelling of the valid (but strange) English word "Embassador". Il Soldato seems to like weird spellings.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), June 28, 2003.

Stephen, you said that embasador "could simply be a weird spelling of the valid (but strange) English word 'Embassador.'"
Did you mean, "... English word, 'Ambassador'"?

While "embasador" may be OK in Ladino, I came across it on the Internet on pages written in Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, and even Indonesian.

Gene is right to say that the Spanish is "embajador."
The Italian is "ambasciatore."
The Portuguese is "embaixador."
It seems likely that "Paolo" (who may not even be Italian) just misspelled the word. (He has a hard time getting religion right too!)

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 28, 2003.


You have it right, john. Paolo is just another poor speller.

We've met atrocious spellers here who had a good grasp of true catholic doctrine. Christian Soldier had immediately shown his immature and frankly quite naive side in the first posts. And a decided calvinist hangup; though he denies having read the false doctrines.

His use of queer terminology struck me too. ''Does Jesus' blood ''cover'' all the sins, etc., or only ''cover'' etc., and his insistence on ''two churches'',

''I like to listen to others teach, but because God (the Word, the Bible) is my only authority, I test every man's teaching with the scriptures, prayfully. The Bible is God speaking to us.''

He seems like a 16 year-old!

Paolo was almost as naive. Just as addicted to false doctrine. As found by him in sola scriptura, in a Bible he ought to just throw away. It's harming his soul.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 28, 2003.


John:

No, I actually mean the English word "Embassador" with an E! King James English that is, of course. :-)

Ephesians 6:20 in the soldier's favorite bible translation reads "For which I am an embassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak." [emphasis mine] I suspect that soldier's nick refers to this verse.(hmm, could s/he be in jail? or maybe boot camp? :-) Also note Proverbs 13:17: "A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful embassador [is] health."

The word is still to be found in fairly recent dictionaries. I found it yesterday in an online Webster dictionary dated 1913 (I can't find it again today alas, but it's out there somewhere).

Eugene is right of course. "Paolo" is just a bad speller. Also, if he was really brought up Catholic, his Catechism teacher was terrible. Definitely not a faithful embassador. :)

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), June 29, 2003.


Sorry, I need to post a correction to my previous post. The original version of the King James Bible spells the word "Ambassador". The version with "Embassador" is the Noah Webster bible of around 1833. Webster was incidentally also the publisher of the Webster dictionary.

And of course, when I said "Eugene is correct .." I realize that he was endorsing what John said earlier.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), June 29, 2003.


John God Bless brother. I am not sure if you will be returning to this tread, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I do what I always do and that is continue to study and investigate to find truth. I said to myself could I be possibly wrong about the Greek grammar? So I prayed on this. Then I realized a good friend of my sister, was born in Greece who is very fluent in the language who owns a greek Bible with the old Greek translation.

So I gave her that same scripture and asked her if the Greek language is similar to the greek when it come to grammar? After she read the vers a few times she totally agreed and validated that that verse can be considered both ways! How wise is our heavenly Father?

Can't you see brother God is giving the churches the biggest test ever. Which way will they go! I don't lie bro!!!!

Peace

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 30, 2003.


It's easy, Paolo.
She's wrong. Grammar doesn't lie. (And I think you know it, but it is soooo hard for you to admit it.)
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 30, 2003.

C.S. are you Paolo?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 30, 2003.

John

She is wrong? You speak Greek? So somebody who speaks Greek all their lives and reads a Greek Bible is wrong? OK! I tried!

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 02, 2003.


CS:

Languages tend to change. Here's the same verse in English from the Wyclif bible which is only a few centuries old:

but if Y tarie, that thou wite, hou it bihoueth thee to lyue in the hous of God, that is the chirche of lyuynge God, a pilere and sadnesse of treuthe.

Make any sense? And don't forget the Bible's Greek is a lot older than this English.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 03, 2003.


Stephen The point is the Word of God was inspired by God Himself. Holy Men wrote as the Spirit moved them. That is why we need to also test every translation to what was actually written in the Holy Cannon! These are the words of God and He has infinite wisdom. He puposely designed this verse in this manner. You can deny it but God is always testing His true believers. Even Jesus Christ was tested. And now the churches are being tested but according to the Bible, they will fail the test because the Bible tells us that all the churches will be under the rule of Satan during the Great Tribulations period which is today!

Do an intense study on ancient Isreal. God extensively gave us so much information on how and why He destroyed them. Well Isreal is a picture of the New testament churches during the Great tribulations. Read Jeremiah, or the Book of Daniel. Listen to the language, and there are clues in those Books that reveal that God is also referring to the end times!

READ THE BIBLE! GOD'S ONLY WAY OF COMMUNICATING TO US. YES HE ALSO USES FAITHFUL TEACHERS WHOM HE RAISES ETC, BUT WE MUST TEST EVERYTHING WITH THE BIBLE, GOD'S VOICE TO US. AND THIS MEANS TEST WHAT I SAY TOO.

P.S. Romans 3:4 "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

God tells us only God is true. So the church is capable of teaching lies. Maybe not with intent, but the moment we teach wrong doctrine, or teach half of a Gospel, then that makes us a liar.

Peace be with you....

-- C.SOLDIER (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 03, 2003.


Stephen,

Aye, yon bibehl ist clarier thien thy skie obuve. Whaht wuld kaus ehnywhyne tu beilyve uthyrwhyz?

I gehs Yu didnuht get yur edjimikashun ihn hour fyhn publik skools.

Frankspeare

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 03, 2003.


This soldier doesn't know anything. Just silly pretensions and presumption. Let's pray for him.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 03, 2003.

Jmj

Soldier Paolo,
There are three possible explanations about why your sister's friend is wrong:
1. She doesn't understand Greek grammar well enough. [Did you ever notice how many native English speakers make horrible grammar errors?]
2. She too is anti-Catholic and couldn't bear to admit that the Church is the "pillar and ground of truth."
3. She could tell which answer you wanted, so she decided to please you.
One thing is certain, though. She was wrong.

Let me try to illustrate with an explanation that uses English.
Suppose I say this: "If you read a book about public speaking, it will help you to make a presentation to the head of the town council, powerful and authoritative."
We cannot tell if "powerful and authoritative" refers to "the head" or to "the town council." But we can distinguish between the two if we insert the words "who is" or "which is:
"... to the head of the town council, who is powerful and authoritative."
"... to the head of the town council, which is powerful and authoritative."

Now when we look at the English translation of the Bible verse, we can be fooled into thinking that "pillar and ground" pertains to "God" or that it is ambiguous. But, just as the words "who is" and "which is" are the sure key to make the situation clear in my example above, so the Greek grammatical "case" is the sure key that makes the situation clear in the Bible verse. The case of "pillar and ground" (nominative) is linked with "the Church" (which is also nominative). But the case of "pillar and ground" cannot be linked with "the living God" (which is not in the nominative case).

Paolo, I think that you have not worked with an "inflected" language (like Latin and Greek) that has nouns and verbs with endings that change, so you are struggling with this, and you need to trust me. I realize that you will have to "eat humble pie" and admit that (perhaps for years?) you have been telling yourself and others the wrong thing about this Bible verse. (And maybe it will be very tough for you to have to admit that the person or book that taught you this error is undependable.)

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003.


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