Hard time in my marriagegreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
i have been married for 6 years and currently my husband and I have been having some difficulties Ilove him and I know he loves me....if you could pray for us to help heal our marriage it would vert appreciated. I haven't felt like myslef in weeks thank you and God bless Kelly
-- kelly Morello (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 01, 2003
best wishes to you in your relationship. if i may make a suggestion about something i have witnessed in the last few months... in every situation we know what is right, and what is wrong. and though we know this, we fail to do what is right (for example, to appologize when we are wrong, take responsibility, etc). we fail in this because often times what is right is harder, or more embarassing, or the like. doing what is wrong, though it seems easier, is detrimental to any relationship, and degrades the value of relationships over time. i encourage both you and your husband to consider this and strive to take the narrow winding path to overcome pride and self rightousness so that you can take the right path together.
-- paul (email@example.com), June 01, 2003.
Hi Kelly: God bless you. I will pray for you. Pray the rosary, together with your husband if possible.
-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), June 01, 2003.
I will pray for you and your husband.
Thats great to hear the confidense you have in the love, that you and your husband have for each other.
Keep praying and you guys will be fine! You know you have that love for your husband, as you know he has that love for you, but you can't see it. Just like God, you can't see Him, but you can feel His love.
May the God that invented Love for us, grant you, and your husband peace and love, and overcome this obsticle that you will overcome with love, and God.
-- David (David@excite.com), June 01, 2003.
I've been praying for you. Based on my experiences, I would recommend that you and your husband start going to a good counselor before your problems get so bad that it's too late to do anything about them.
-- Mark (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 03, 2003.
look into Retrouvaille
-- Daniel Hawkenberry (email@example.com), June 04, 2003.
Even better than a counselor is finding and talking to a mentor couple. Choose a good Christian couple you trust who may have had similar experiences in their marriage.
Also, make sure you are following the Church's rules about marriage. Even the more 'innocent' forms of contraception can ruin a good marriage! Be careful! I will pray for you.
-- Rose (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 06, 2003.
Cynical reply, for effect, not advice.
ANNULMENT: REMARRY WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NATIONAL $149 DIVORCE & BANKRUPTCY CENTER
File For Annulment in Only 24 Hours for Just $149! You Make the Decisions - We Do the Paperwork Annulment & Divorce Specialist; When It Has To Be Done Right the 1st Time! Now In Our 10th Year ! Annulment- $149 Annulment; With or Without Children or Property;
Annulment: Spouse's Signature Not Required email@example.com
Phone: (940) 691-5383 | Fax (940) 691-5389 | 9:00 - 5:00 CST
With a divorce rate approaching 50%, (40% among Catholics according to most studies), approximately 15 million divorced Catholics (and their children), are dramatically impacted by civil divorce. For a Catholic, the impact of divorce on their day to day lives can be devastating. Divorce affects everything from the obvious considerations of remarriage and attending Mass and partaking of the sacraments to questions of where the children will go to school - parochial or public education, and where the divorced Catholic will be buried?
In response to the dilemma facing divorced Catholics, the Church, in recent years, has made sweeping changes in the Cannon Law governing Annulment and the Catholic Church. The annulment of the marriage of a Kennedy brought the issue of annulment of a marriage by the Catholic Church to the forefront. Kennedy's annulment, widely reported by the media, alerted and educated the general Catholic public to the changes in Cannon Law as it is applied to annulments.
FAQ's The Basics of Catholic Annulment:
Annulment; a working definition:
An Annulment is a declaration by the Church Tribunal under Cannon Law, that the marriage never legally existed as a sacramental union in the 'eyes' of the Church.
Annulment versus Divorce: What is the difference?
Divorce is a civil suit dissolving a marriage. Annulment is a declaration that the marriage never existed.
Civil Divorce and the Church?
The Church does not recognize the civil dissolution of a marriage. In the eyes of the Church, you are still married to your 1st spouse even after you have been granted a civil divorce by a judge. As far as the Church is concerned, just as civil authorities do not have the authority to marry a Catholic ; they do not have the authority to divorce a Catholic either - only the Church has the authority to sanctify a marriage and only the Church tribunal (court) has the power to annul a marriage.
Excommunication and Divorce?
Contrary to what most Catholics and non-Catholics believe, there is no longer a Church "penalty" for getting divorced. Catholics are not automatically excommunicated for getting a divorce.
Remarriage resulting in automatic excommunication from the Church was a "rule" created and imposed only by the Bishops of the United States in 1844.
In May 1977, the Catholic bishops in the United States removed the automatic penalty of excommunication from those Catholics that divorce and remarry. Since the "rule" was of their own making, the bishops were well within their discretion to remove the "rule" they created 133 years earlier.
Divorced Catholics are permitted to attend Mass and participate in Church life. As long as a divorced Catholic does not remarry, he or she may participate in the sacraments and in a full Church life just as if the divorce had never taken place; since in the eyes of the Church, the divorce did not take place - they are still married.
Remarriage Without Annulment?
Despite the changes in Church doctrine, some things remain unchanged. A divorced Catholic may not remarry within the Church without first obtaining an annulment from the Church tribunal. A marriage outside the Church is considered to be an adulterous relationship and the remarried Catholic cannot receive the sacraments.
Divorce In the Catholic Church; A Sin?
NO. Divorce is not a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church. It is not divorce that causes the problem for Catholics. It is remarriage, and (80% of divorced Catholics will remarry at some point), without first obtaining a Church annulment of the first marriage that the Church considers "wrong". The Church neither considers divorce to be right or wrong. In fact, the Church recognizes the need for a civil divorce in many instances to address the civil issues of property division and the care, custody and support of minor children.
Remarriage to a "convert"?
From the Church's view point, all first marriages, (Catholic and non- Catholic) ,must be annulled by the Church tribunal before a second marriage can take place. If a Catholic marries a convert to Catholicism that has been married before; that convert's first marriage must be annulled by the Church before the marriage between the Catholic and the Catholic Convert can take place within the Church.
Remarriage and the sacraments?
Although the bishops removed the sanction of automatic excommunication as a penalty for remarriage in 1977, allowing remarried Catholics to attend Mass, that did not change the prohibition against receiving the sacraments for those Catholics that divorced and remarried without benefit of a Church tribunal annulment. For many Catholics, not being able to receive the sacraments amounts to excommunication .
The Church's "invitation" to return to full Eucharistic communion?
Quoting Bishop Cletus O'Donnel, Fr. Young, in his book, Ministering to the Divorced Catholic, wrote:
Those who have remarried and may have incurred the Church penalty of excommunication should see in this decision to remove the penalty [against remarriage] a genuine invitation from the Church community. It is up to them to take teh next step by approaching parish priests and dioceasn Tribunals to see whether their return to full Eucharistic communion is possible.
Fr. Doherty quotes a Tribunal official as saying:
There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid.
The prevailing attitude among Tribunal members seems to be that almost anyone who is divorced is likely to be judged as having sufficient grounds to successfully petition for an annulment.
Marriage: a sacrament instituted by God????
The Church holds that marriage is a sacrament instituted by God not to be put asunder by man. The Church has come to the conclusion that not all marriages are true sacramental marriages. The theory is that if the marriage had been a sacramental marriage, it would not have broken down. Therefore, if a marriage is found to be irretrievably broken by a civil court, it was not a sacramental marriage to begin with.
Sacramental marriage ??
The Church's position on 'grounds' for annulment goes something like this. If a marriage is found to be "broken" and a divorce is granted in a civil court, then in the Church's view, the marriage was never a true sacrament or it would not have "broken down". This being the case, the logic continues, the seeds of the breakdown must have been present from the beginning , even before the marriage, and it is only when those seeds produce the inevitable breakdown of the marriage that the marriage's true invalidity becomes apparent. Obviously, there was never a chance for a true sacramental union and therefore there must be probable grounds for granting an annulment. The Church's logic in a nut shell is: if there is a divorce then there never was a true sacramental marriage and therefore the marriage is subject to annulment.
What if I 'caused' the divorce??
Tribunals are not interested in determining blame or punishing the "guilty".
Using the prevailing logic above, the fact that one of the spouses is 'guilty' of some act that destroyed the marriage may actually support an annulment. For example, if one of the spouses commits adultery, then the adultery is simply the logical fruit ion of the seeds of destruction that kept the marriage from being a sacrament in the first place.
Will an annulment declare my children to be illegitimate?
NO! Under Cannon Law (Church Law), children of a putative marriage - that is a marriage that at least one of the spouses believed to be a sacrament are legitimate even if the marriage is later declared null by an annulment. Church law does not even attempt to address the issues of legitimacy, inheritance, support, etc. or any other matter handled in the civil divorce process.
Dispensation from the Pope???
The vast majority of annulments are granted by the local Tribunal. Only the very very very rare annulment requires a dispensation by the Pope in Rome.
The process and costs of an annulment?
It takes 6 months to 1 year to complete the annulment process.
An advocate is assigned to represent you free of charge by the Tribunal. You are not required to hire a Cannon Lawyer or anyone else to handle the annulment process for you.
You do not attend the hearing or appear in court.
You will not be 'cross-examined' or even see your ex-spouse.
The cost of an annulment varies depending on the filing party's income and ability to pay. Most Archdiocese have plans for payment of the fees in monthly installments.
For example, the following total costs are being reported:
NY, the cost ranged from $25 to a maximum of $225, Madison, WI the cost averaged $190, Chicago the a fee of $250 is requested, but waived in part or in whole if the filing party is unable to pay Lafayette LA, $225 The Tribunal has a hearing process reviewing your paperwork (you don't attend the hearing)
The Tribunal makes the decision to grant (or deny) your annulment and mails you a certificate of annulment.
The hardest part of the process is the waiting. Once you file the paperwork- you wait, and wait, and wait until the tribunal gets to your case, grants your annulment and sends you the certificate of annulment.
Grounds" for Annulment??
80% of all Catholic annulment granted in the United States are based on the "new" psychological grounds.
The "New Code" formally accepts psychological grounds for annulment. Cannon #1095 declares the following are incapable of contracting marriage:
those who lack sufficient use of reason ; those who lack judgmental discretion concerning the matrimonial rights and duties to me mutually handed over and accepted; those who, due to a serious psychic anomaly, cannot assume the essential obligations of matrimony. Codifying the "lack of due discretion and lack of due competence" ushered in a new era in Cannon Law and gave the Tribunal the basis necessary to grant an annulment of almost any marriage that is dissolved by a civil divorce decree.
Most importantly, the Church's position on annulment is rooted in its new understanding of what constitutes a sacramental marriage. It is no longer assumed that a person who can intellectually understand the concept of marriage can necessarily give the valid consent necessary to create a sacramental marriage. The ability to both grasp and assume the real obligations of a mature lifelong commitment are now considered a prerequisite to valid matrimonial consent leading to a sacramental marriage.
Psychological grounds for annulment?
The following real world example will help to better illustrate the revolutionary import of the psychological grounds as the basis for annulment.
Example. A 17 year old boy is 'encouraged' by his parents to 'do the right thing' and marry his pregnant girlfriend. Applying the psychological grounds for annulment (and common sense) it is not hard to make the case that the boy was immature, felt pressured by his family (and the girl's family) to do the right thing, and likely could not have fully appreciated the obligations of marriage and therefore lacked the necessary due discretion required at the time of the marriage to form a sacramental marriage.
A spouse's extramarital affair(s), trouble holding a job, financial irresponsibility, refusal to care for the home and/or children, dependence on parents, reliance on peer approval, alcohol or drug use, run ins with the law, etc. serve to demonstrate that the spouse exhibits an antisocial personality which would prevent him/her from fully understanding or carrying out the obligations of a lifelong relationship and therefore evidence that the spouse lacked the due competence required to form a sacramental marriage.
Nullity of a marriage contains the following passage:
"Many people believe that virtually any failed marriage can be annulled on the basis of incapacity and immaturity. It is not all that difficult to prove that someone was immature at the time of the marriage or did not fully understand all the obligations and developments involved in a lifelong marriage."
In his article in Catholic Mind, Fr. Green gives the following 6 elements that must all be present to form a sacramental marriage:
a permanent and faithful commitment to the marriage partner; openness to children and the marriage partner'; stability; emotional maturity; financial responsibility; an ability to cope with the ordinary stresses and strains of marriage. The Nature of Evidence?
The "new" Code has been paired with a new interpretation of the relevant evidence in annulment cases. The most difficult problem in annulment cases has always been 'proving' that circumstances existed at the time of the marriage that made the marriage incapable of being a sacramental marriage and therefore null.
Following the changes in 1970, diocesan Tribunals began to accept proof of psychological problems after the marriage as proof that nullifying conditions existed at the time of the marriage warranting an annulment.
The process of annulment begins with the filing of the initial paperwork - the petition.
About The National Divorce & Bankruptcy Center
The National Divorce & Bankruptcy Center is a division of Pro Se Publications, Self-Help Center, which began in May of 1994 and provides the public with easy and inexpensive access to the courts and the legal system without the expense of hiring a lawyer. We help you better inform yourself about laws and legal procedures so that you can make your own informed decisions - about the legal actions that affect your life. We provide services at low cost because we are not lawyers and do not give legal advice. Instead, our service is limited to providing you with self-help information and providing quality legal document preparation.
IN SHORT - We Help Our Customers Solve Their Own Legal Problems Without The Expense of Hiring A Lawyer.
The Paperwork: The process of annulment begins with the filing of the initial paperwork. We have put together an annulment package that contains sample and blank forms covering all of the various formats currently in use by the Tribunals across the United States and the procedural information to guide you through the process of filing and processing an annulment, from filing the initial paperwork through to the final decision including all of the following documents:
General Information Sheets Petition For Annulment including witness list and detailed specific questions regarding the marriage [question and answer format] Petition For Annulment including interviewing priest's assessments of merits and story of the marriage [narrative format] Preliminary Petition including the interviewing priest's recommendation to the Tribunal and the story of the marriage [narrative format] Request for Investigation of Marriage with the story of the marriage [narrative format] Order Form Online Annulment Form"Instant" Ordering ; or Point - Click - Print! (or save) for ordering off line. The document package will be return emailed to you in its original word perfect or the standard (*.rtf) format for use in any word processing program or in hard copy. Simply load the file into your favorite word processing program and complete the forms in the privacy of your own home. Once completed, print and file the completed forms using the included guidelines for procedural information to walk you through the process.
Alternate form "snail mail"e-mail your mailing address and we will "snail mail" you an order form via U.S. Postal Every Citizen's right to know and use the law - without hiring a lawyer - is fundamental to American Democracy. The law, like any other information, can be broken down and organized into small, easily understandable sections and bits. The 'bits' can then be put together to complete a larger task.
Making the Divorce & Annulment process easier is our commitment to the public.
The information available at this site and its hypertext links, is the result of a 4 1/2 year prospective Phd dissertation research project on divorce and is excerpted from the books and other divorce information published by Pro Se Publications (unless otherwise noted) and is provided for general information and educational purposes, and last, but most important, is not to be considered legal advice. For additional information, see the copyright & disclaimer
firstname.lastname@example.org Phone: (940) 691-5383 | Fax (940) 691-5389 | 9:00 - 5:00 CST Pro Se Publications 2010 Turtle Creek Road Wichita Falls, Texas 76309-2610
-- kjw (Info@juno.com), June 07, 2003.
I just saw your message for the first time tonight. You are at the top of my prayer list. It was a beautiful and courageous thing for you to come and ask for help so that your marriage may be healed. You have a good start in knowing that you love one another.
Please ignore the incredibly uncouth and inappropriate message left by "kjw," a recent and unwelcome addition to this forum. He/she has left nothing worthwhile here and seems not to understand the purpose of this forum. Say a prayer for his/her reform or disappearance.
God bless you.
-- J. F. Gecik (email@example.com), June 08, 2003.
So what was so bad about kjw's post? It told it like it is, I guess.
He didn't call anybody names or put any guilt trips on them.
-- rod (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 16, 2003.
I see your point, John. I was having a "flash back" when I read that post and how I wished that information were available to me back then. I wouldn't be in the situation that I have now.
Kelly, my prayers go out for you and your husband. Do what you can and remember that God is with us.
-- rod (email@example.com), August 16, 2003.