As I continue reading the Bible the Holy Spirit continues to guide me to hidden treasures. I love the Word of God and the more I read it, the more it seems that God teaches only His chosen will be saved. His elect were chosen before the foundations of the earth. The Bible tells us in Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. "

If this is the truth of the Bible, then I can't do nothing and must wait upon the Lord. If I am mistaken, could anybody show some scriptures that say otherwise.

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 25, 2003

Answers

If your interpretation of this passage is truth, then earthly life is meaningless. If God created some to be saved and some to be damned, why didn't he just create them either in heaven or in hell? Why go througth this meaningless charade of earthly existence first, since there is no choice to be made. However, the Bible tells us that there is a choice to be made:

Who is the man who fears the Lord? He will instruct him in the way he should CHOOSE. (Psalms 25:12)

CHOOSE for yourselves today whom you will serve (Joshua 24:15)

I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE life in order that you may live, you and your descendants. (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Of course, predestinationists would claim that God gave specific individuals the grace to choose Him, and withheld that grace from others. But, even without going into the fact that such an action on God's part would violate His very nature as all-loving and all- merciful, the scriptures make it clear that God intended salvation for all men:

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3)

"For the death that He died, He died to sin once FOR ALL; but the life that He lives, He lives to God". (Romans 6:10)

"and He died FOR ALL, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf". (2 Corinthians 5:15)

"For Christ also died for sins once FOR ALL, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit (1 Peter 3:18)

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ ALL will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN to Myself." (John 12:32)

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN". (Romans 5:18)

"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of believers". (1 Timothy 4:10)

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL MEN" (Titus 2:11)

"And it shall be that EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Acts 2:21)

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 25, 2003.

Stephen

God bless brother! This is a continuation of our discussion. Isn't it true that before we come up with a conclusion that we should test our conclusion to all the scriptures that pertain that subject?

All I am trying to do is expose all the scriptures so we could analyze them together, that's all. Remember we need to do this hummbly because we need to treat God's WORD with respect and try to keep our emotions out of it. The teaching of predestination is very ugly but if this is what God tells us we must respect it and be obedient to it because it comes from the Word of God! Let's continue... It's true that the Bible is preached through out the world for all to hear, this is their calling. Since the human race are in bondage to Satin and are spiritually dead, only God's chosen will hear it when the Father begins drawing them. In Mathew:22:14" For many are called, but few are chosen." Suppose the Bible does tell us we can choose to be saved and it is up to us. This one verse totally tells us the opposite.

In Psalms:53:2 "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. "

Could we ignore this one? God tells us He looks down at the human race and sees there is not one person that seeks God! So how could we say there are acceptions? Yes the salvation call is proclaimed to everybody, but nobody wants it, or at least in God's terms, because we are all dead spiritually. I promise you I will explain that parable you asked me about. We need to get through this one first.

When the gospel call does reaches an elect, assuming it's his time at the moment, God will awaken him using His Word, and begin drawing that individual. Remember God tell's us none will perish, or He wishes they all(the elected) be saved. The chosen are the heirs of His will. Salvation was given to his chosen as a gift. They didn't earn nothing. Think about this. Suppose you are one of his elect, Why did Christ die on the cross? Well, to pay for your sins, Right? Just one sin or all? All! We have to be sinless to make it to the Kingdom of heaven. So Christ had to absorb the wrath of God equal to eternity in hell, for every single filthy sin you have committed your whole lifetime, so you can be blamelss. Imagine, God had to do this for everyone He chose that are written in the Book of life. So it does not make sense when I hear God died for the whole world and all we have to do is accept Him. Because if He paid the penalty for all my sins and I don't accept Christ how could He throw me to Hell if Christ took my sins away? It doesn't make sense!

God gives His elect a new soul and removes his stoney heart, then when the elect recieves spiritual eyes and ears, this individual begins to repent and seeks God because of his spiritual hunger. Not only that, the elect will realize there was no way in the world that he could take any credit for his transformation. So, day and night he thanks God and gives him all the Glory. As he feeds on the Word, he begins to grow like a babe on milk. Finally when he is ready for meat, the Holy Spirit continues to guide him to the understanding of the mysteries of God's will. Remember if there is any goodness to do God's will, it is only the faith of Christ who wills in us to do His good pleasures. Jesus even said if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains. A mustard seed is tiny, it is almost we have no faith of our own. Christ is the essence of faith. What happens when we take our eyes off Christ? The lust of the flesh which is still cursed continues to lust after sin. But our new souls become in conflict with the flesh because spiritually in our souls we do not want to sin. This is the thorn in the flesh that St. Paul was talking about in, Romans:7:18-24.

But if we are truely saved we cannot go back to our old self because now we hate our sins. So if it seems somebody fell away to his old self again, it only tells us they were never saved from the start. It just seemed that way. The contents in the Bible is not straight forward. We have to diligently compare scripture with scripture,rightly dividing the word. Christ spoke in parables and then explained the truths to the Appostles. If God wanted everybody to understand then HE would of had the Bible written in a simplified way so it could be easily read and understood! If we don't humble ourselves and come to God broken hearted without pride, then God will not reveal the hidden riches of His glory written in the Bible.

Many scriptures can be taken two ways. But the correct way is the path where all the scriptures harmonize because the WORD of GOD has no contradictions. We can NOT issolate one verse and ignore the other 20 verses that conflict with that one we found!

In conclusion, We have no right whatsoever to say this is wrong! We are the criminals. We are all guilty for eternity in hell! None of us deserves salvation. It would of been just as amazing if God even saved just one person. But He didn't! God saved a great multitude that no man can number. It is still a remnent compared to the unsaved. God even responds to this in this fashion:

Romans:9:14 "What shall we say then * Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid * 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy......

LISTEN WHAT HE SAYS NOW. I TREMBLE AND FEEL HIS POWER AND ANGER!!!

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God * Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 * Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to * * make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if * * God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 * Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? "

SO AM I WRONG FOR THINKING LIKE THIS? WE DO NOT HAVE AN INFINITE MIND LIKE GOD, SO WE CAN'T UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING HE DOES AND SAYS. WE MUST TREMMBLE BEFORE GOD. DO YOU FEAR MAN BEFORE GOD? SO LISTEN TO THE BIBLE.

GOD bless.....

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador3333@yahoo.con), May 25, 2003.

Paul

God bless. Thankyou for showing some scriptures that may conflict with pre election. We have to face all scriptures. If we have truth then every scripture should harmonize with our conclusion.

Beleive me I don't like the idea not being able to get myself saved. It is important to listen to what the Bible tells us. we read in Ephesians 2, Romans 3, John 5:24, and the other passages that tell us we are dead in our sins and we do not have free will. God Himself and God alone saves us. Only God is to receive the glory of our salvation. God's gracious offer of salvation is available to the entire human race. If any person does turn to Him, on God's terms it is because God is saving him.

There are more scriptures similar to the ones you mentioned. When we read these verses in the light of the rest of the Bible, we know that no one of his own volition will turn to Christ because there is none that seeketh after God (Romans 3:11). Revelation 22:17 is a promise of God, it will never prompt a response in anyone unless God draws him.

Revelation 3:20 is frequently used by those who want to retain some aspect of free will. There God declares: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." If this verse is read quickly, it seems to indicate that the person who responds to Christ is doing so of his own free will. IF we read this verse very carefully, we notice that it says, "If any man hear my voice." Can a dead man hear the voice of God?

God gives us a good illustration when He raised Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus was a stinking corpse dead for 4 days. Similar to how the human race is, spiritually. Could Lazarus hear the voice of Jesus? The answer is, Of course not. He could not hear the Savior's voice; he was dead. But he did hear the voice of Christ, and he did come forth. Likewise, the spiritually dead of themselves cannot hear with understanding of the Gospel call. Those who respond do so only because God gives them spiritual ears to hear. Even as God gave the dead Lazarus physical ears to hear and the strength to respond, so God gives us spiritual ears to hear if He is drawing us to Himself. These verses does not teach free will. They simply indicates that if we have ears to hear, then we will respond, but the ears to hear must come from God. The scriptures you chose that speaks about "ALL MEN" can't be the whole world because we know there will be more people in Hell than Heaven.

It is significant that God repeatedly declares in the Book of Revelation: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation 3:6). Only those whom God is drawing, those whom God is saving, will have that kind of ear. Therefore, this verse also gives Biblical corroboration to the historical teaching of total depravity.

A Gospel program that promotes the idea that anyone has a free will to choose God is contrary to the Bible. When we are unsaved, our will is sold out to sin and to Satan. We might insist that our will is free, but in our unsaved condition, our will is always contrary to the will of God. We will never of ourselves come to God because the Bible insists, "There is none that seeketh after God" (Romans 3:11).

When Joshua commanded ancient Israel to "choose you to this day whom ye will serve" (Joshua 24:15), was Joshua suggesting that man has a free will? When we read Joshua 24:15 carefully we discover that Joshua's command to choose was not to make a choice between God and Baal, it was a choice between one false religion and another. In Joshua 24:15 we read: "And if it seem even unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

God does not give us choice of whether or not we will believe in Christ. God commands the human race to believe in Christ. We read in I John 3:23:" And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment". If any verses in the Bible imply a choice is to be made, God always commands what that choice is to be. The command is that we should turn back to God. We are to faithfully bring the Gospel, including the command of God to believe on Christ.

We must realize that only those whom God draws - those whom He has chosen for salvation - will obey the command and respond to the Gospel offer. We must also realize that we have been commissioned by God to make the Gospel offer so that God's salvation program will come to fruition in the lives of those whose will He desires to save.

It might not seem right to us in our heart because we are all part of the sin problem. By nature, we are all under the wrath of God. We are not able to understand the perfect justice of God. We must remember that no one will go to hell because God viciously wants people to go to hell. People are under the wrath of God and will go to hell because they are in rebellion against God. God did not create man to destroy him in hell; God created man in His image, to love and obey Him, and to have the highest good from Him. God warned mankind, beginning with our first parents Adam and Eve, that in the day mankind rebelled, that is, if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die. In the face of this warning, and the fact that mankind was created perfect, and the fact that God was perfectly loving toward them, they rebelled. Therefore, the perfect justice and perfect righteousness of God came into play, and God had no alternative but to send mankind to hell. By rights, the whole human race ought to end up in hell.

Now the question might then logically follow: "Well, why did God go through all this agony, of creating a world, allowing it to rebel against Him, so that He would have to go through this massive effort in order to redeem the world? The best answer that I can think of (and I know that this is very biblical) is that everything happens to God's glory. He says that "even the wrath of man shall praise God."

Now why God did this is all to His glory. The whole creation is to His glory. We read, for example, in Romans 9:22, "What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath afore prepared unto glory." Here God is saying that He is sovereign in these matters. If he wants to glorify Himself through His poured out wrath on the unsaved, that's His sovereign good pleasure, even as it's His sovereign good pleasure to save those whom He will.

We of course, as sinners in the misery of sin, can't understand this. We just can't fathom the love of God, we can't fathom the grace of God, we can't fathom the holiness of God. We only know that it exists.

God BLESS!!!!

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 25, 2003.

Christian Soldier:

As the verses Paul gave indicated, there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that God wants to save everyone. Your position seems to set up Romans 9 as the centerpiece of Christian theology and re-interpet everything else, e.g., all Paul's verses, to fit that. You need to justify that Romans 9 deserves that position. Put in context, it seems to be part of a complex multi-chapter argument whose main point is that Jews and Gentiles in the Roman church should consider themselves part of the same community.

As mentioned earlier, we do accept "predestination of the saved", while we reject "predestination of the unsaved". (Somebody correct me if this is wrong.) This makes the difference between our position and yours quite subtle, we can't just condemn your entire position out of hand. Also our position seems to involve a paradox, because if we are saved we give the credit to God, but if not, it's our own fault. I thought of a story that might make my understanding of our position a bit more clear, and of how it differs from yours.

Let's say a father has triplets, one good kid, and two bad kids. One of the bad kids is a Calvinist, let's call him Calvin and the other is Catholic, let's call him Borgia. (Of course the good kid must be Catholic :-), but let's ignore his affiliation for the story). The kids graduate from high school and have to decide what to do with their lives. They all want to go into show biz because they really fancy their singing voices. Dad though is sure that will be a disaster and tells them that he wants them to get a degree first. Good kid is unhappy, but he decides that Dad knows best and starts looking for a good University. Calvin and Borgia however ignore old Dad (they've had problems with him before) and head for the recording studios. Good old Dad is really unhappy (he loves them enough to want them to do well in life, but he knows they won't), but he loves them enough to respect their freedom and the fact that they're grown-ups now. Twenty-five years later, this is what the kids have to say:

Good Kid: Wow, life turned out so well, and you know what! I've got to give the credit entirely to Dad. If it hadn't been for his advice, I'd have ended up a bum like my brothers.

Borgia: I've messed up my life. I wish I'd listened to Dad. Good kid was smart to do so.

Calvin: I've messed up my life, but it's really Dad's fault. I couldn't have done it on my own. It was partly my genes, which came from him, and partly my upbringing which is again all his fault. And he let me go ahead when I didn't listen to his advice. Of course Dad wanted this to happen. He wanted me to screw up so that everybody would know how smart he is. And he gave Good Kid all the breaks all the time.

[Note: I know I'm ignoring Mom, but you get the picture. :)]

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 26, 2003.

Slight (but important) correction to what Borgia said:

Borgia: I've messed up my life. I wish I'd listened to Dad. He really saved Good Kid.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 26, 2003.

Stephen

If you truely believe in your heart that's the way the salvation of the Bible is then it is your choice to believe so but you are violating many verses I have given which you continue to ignore. My statement was based on all the scriptures I have stated. I didn't force scripture to sound like what I want it to be. If we take all the verses and try to harmonize them then there could only be one conclusion. Pre election just makes me more in need of God where I have to put my pride asside and go to Him with a broken and contrite heart! And no man will do that especially if they are in bondage to Satin and sin because they are blind. Man because of their blindness always want to take just a little bit of credit. "Only if I do this or take this, I will be right with God!" But God tells us No way, no one come to the father unless He draws you! We we proclaim the gospel, we are speaking to dead bodies. We are like dry bones. (Spiritually speaking)

We can be as spiritual as we like but that don't me anything especially if we are going contrary to God. I'm always terrified if I am teaching in error. And God will look at every Teacher, Priest, Paster, Deacon, etc very carefully because if they aren't teaching faithfully and trembling before the Word of God, then they aren't Spirit lead and will receive many stripes in Hell. Their torture will be worst. They will receive more double because they are causing mass suicide leading God's children to spiritual fornication! Boy I would never want to be in that position. Look at the pharasies, they thought they were following the law perfectly. we read in

Mathew 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."...."25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? "

If I am coming to God all broken and begging for salvation, it is only because God is drawing me. Would you addmit that you deserve to go to hell? Would you tell God and mean it? When we know we are committing a sin, that is a deliberate act towards God. Even if we are not chosen, we can still choose if we should do the right thing or the wrong thing. We love our sins. No kidding, I never wanted to even look at the Bible or even care to know what was written in it. So how does this intense hunger and constantly thinking about my Lord come from. No way I take the credit. I am in awe because God is making me understand so many difficult scriptures that many theologions won't touch.

Let me ask you a question? Do you believe the WORD of God in its original autographs is perfect with no contradictions? And every single word was what God intended it to be? If you said yes, then how can you make statements that contradict the verses I give you. Please do not get upset, I enjoy learning from others and I do listen what they have to say, but why is it that so many people pick and choose verses they like. Am I studing the Bible in the wrong way?

May God give us wisdom! God Bless.

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 26, 2003.

Please, Mr. Soldier: If you insist on this vanity: ''How can you make statements that contradict the verses I give you?'' who would ever think you have the truth? The verses WHO gives us? This is self absorption; and pride. You aren't in any position of authority to demand that others follow your interpretation.

The Catholic Church is. You have been saying the Holy Spirit guides you. But He would never guide any Christian away from the Church's holy doctrines. That FACT by itself shows you lack the light of the Holy Spirit. You're guided completely by sola scriptura and pride in human wisdom.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 26, 2003.

Dear Soldier,

Other than thanking me for the dozen or so passages which clearly demonstrate the fallacy of your position (I could have offered a dozen more), you have failed to address them at all. Rather, you have simply ignored the Word of God as presented to you, and stubbornly forged ahead with your personal point of view.

So please - what is your interpretation of the words of Jesus ... "I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN to Myself." (John 12:32) What, other than "ALL MEN" can "ALL MEN" possibly mean?

Please explain how ""For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL MEN" (Titus 2:11) actually means that salvation is given only to a predestined few??

Your Bible says "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3) YOU say the Word of God is false, and God does NOT desire the salvation of ALL MEN. Who am I to believe? the inspired writings of Paul, or the writings of Christian Soldier?

YOU tell me that only selected individuals have any hope of salvation, but the Word of God tells me that "EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Acts 2:21) Shall I accept your word over God's Word??

YOU insist that Jesus is the Savior only of the "elect", but the Holy Bible says that he is "the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of believers". (1 Timothy 4:10) How can I possibly take you seriously when everything you say directly contradicts what God has said??

You say "Pre election just makes me more in need of God where I have to put my pride aside and go to Him with a broken and contrite heart!" I say WHY BOTHER?? If you are already predestined, going to Him with a contrite heart should have exactly the same effect as slapping Him in the face - NONE. NOTHING we do can make a difference, isn't that right?? Therefore, what does it matter what we do? If we are predestined, then obviously "eat, drink, and be merry" is the only logical rule of life.

You say that "no one come to the father unless He draws you", yet you call Him a liar when He tells you that He draws ALL MEN to Himself.

You say "I'm always terrified if I am teaching in error". And yet you reject the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, as defined by the very Bible you claim to follow (1 Tim 3:15), thereby making yourself the supreme authority. Oh I know you claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, but so do the thousands of Protestant sects and preachers whose teaching flatly contradicts yours. So much for that system. The Holy Spirit obviously is not at work here, for He cannot contradict Himself.

You ask"If I am coming to God all broken and begging for salvation, it is only because God is drawing me". The answer to that question is YES! But that doesn't mean God isn't also drawing all the children He loves. Especially considering that He has plainly said He is doing so! Predestination flies in the face of the principle image of Himself which God has given us - that of Father. Who can picture a Father seeing his chldren walking toward a fiery pit, and calling some of them away, but not giving the others a chance to escape destruction, when He could easily do so? Of course, some of the children may not hear the Father's voice, or may ignore it, and thereby be destroyed. But that would be their decision, not the father's. Anyway, why would you go to God begging for what has already been eternally decided?? Does begging, or even going to God help in a predestination-based belief system?

You claim that "Even if we are not chosen, we can still choose if we should do the right thing or the wrong thing". WHY BOTHER? If any choice I make is essentially meaningless, why not just do whatever I feel like doing?

You claim "I am in awe because God is making me understand so many difficult scriptures that many theologions won't touch". In fact, I am not in awe at all over the absurd, untenable conclusions you are assigning to the Word of God, because I have seen so many others, having taken a similar unguided, wandering path of personal interpretation, reaching equally heretical conclusions. I am not awed by your errors because they are fully predictable, indeed inevitable. You cannot find truth other than through the pillar and foundation of truth.

You ask "Do you believe the WORD of God in its original autographs is perfect with no contradictions"? YES! I do! And that is why it is so painfully obvious that the thousands of contradiction-riddled interpretations that have come out of your manmade tradition are NOT anything close to the Word of God, but only the ramblings of unguided human minds - or worse, human minds guided by the wrong spiritual influences.

You ask: "Am I studing the Bible in the wrong way"? I THOUGHT YOU WOULD NEVER ASK!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!! A THOUSAND TIMES YESSSSSSSSSSSS! That is EXACTLY the reason for your problem! God gave the Bible to the CHURCH, and with it, the authority and guidance to interpret it. In trying to force the Bible to do for you what God has ordained that the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church would do, you are rejecting His holy will for you, and are trapped in a downward spiral of misinterpretation and untruth which is taking you farther and farther from the true meaning of God's Holy Word. Put aside your Bible - you can't find truth in it on your own anyway - and ask God to guide you into the fullness of truth. He hears prayers, and will gradually bring you home. But not as long as you allow the screaming voice of self-righteous personal interpretation to drown Him out of your life.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 26, 2003.

Here is some spiritual food!

First of all we can't imply that "all men" is the entire human race. So what does God mean when He says, "will have all men to be saved" ? Remember God speakes in parables and scripture may not be straight forward. so let's check out other verses.

We must understand the Biblical use of this word and let the Bible be its own dictionary. For example, in Luke 2:1 God declares: "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." We could conclude that "all the world" included the North American Indians and the people in Africa, etc., but the context shows us that the "all the world" that was to be taxed was that part of the world that was subject to taxation, namely, the Roman Empire. In other words, the word "all" was conditioned by the context in which it was found. We read in Acts 2:17, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." We know from the Bible that God did not pour out the Holy Spirit on every individual in the world so that they became prophets or that they would prophesy; He poured out His Spirit on those who would believe. The "all" here is conditioned by the rest of the Bible, which declares that only those who are elect will believe, so the word "all" is much less than all-inclusive.

We read in I Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die." From the rest of the Bible we know that this "all " is an all-inclusive "all" and includes every individual in the human race this is why we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

The next phrase in I Corinthians 15:22 tells us: "Even so in Christ shall all be made alive." If this "all" included every individual, the verse would teach universal atonement, and we know that is not possible. Hell will be heavily populated by people who have not been made alive. They are spiritually dead. Therefore, we must read the second phrase, "even so in Christ shall all [who are to be made alive] be made alive." God is teaching that all the individuals who are elected, according to His plan, are saved by Christ's work.

Other passages of the Bible show us that the people He plans to save are those whom He has predestinated. Likewise, when God uses the language, "Who gave himself a ransom for all" (I Timothy 2:6), "God, who is the Saviour of all men" (I Timothy 4:10), or "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4), we know that the "all" in these verses is conditioned by God's elective program. He is the Savior of only those whom He has predestinated, elected, and ransomed; and God has only these people in view when he uses the word "all." He gave His life a ransom for all of His elect. He wishes that all His elect will come to him.

You see you are twisting scripture and then you use your humanly thinking by saying how could God do this? God is a righteous judge. He demands a penalty for our sins. Every criminal who has to go to jail will say he is innocent! Or he doesn't belong in jail for killing somebody or robbing someone's house. The whole human race is guilty! We all belong in hell. We became slaves of Satin. None of us want God in His terms! Who are we to say God is not righteous for doing this. The way God does show His love is by even saving some so He can be glorifyed. Of course God loved His creation. But you know what, God tested mankinds' faithfulness towards Him. And he warned us that if we disobeyed we had to pay!

Please don't deceive the people with a grace plus works gospel! The moment we take just a little bit of credit for salvation, we are in rebellion towards God.

I am not trying to be difficult. I tremble before God Almighty. One last comment, you explained predestination by saying that God knew who would turn to him and who will turn away from Him. Then how do you explain these verses.

In psalms:53:2 "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. "

God answers this and says He looks but finds no one who seeks Him. We are all spiritually dead! God knows who will be saved because He chose some for himself. This verse contradicts your conclusion. Believe me I don't like the sound of predestination, but who am I to complain. If we truely feared God, we would be careful in what we teach.

Paul please meditate on these questions, why did Christ die on the Cross? To pay for some of your sins or all of your sins, so you can be blameless? If you are not sure ask your church they have all the answers.

Wow, if Christ died on the cross to pay for all of our sins, and you say he died for the whole world, GEE then why are so many people going to Hell????? Keep making Christ look like a liar. At least I will admit to God I deserve to go to hell and any bit of goodness I have is never good enough for my Lord. Even every ounce of faith I have is the Lord's faith and not of my own.

I Love you Paul, I will pray for you.

-- Christian soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), May 26, 2003.

eugene

The Church is not God! Who do you think the Church is made up of? Men with sin tainted minds! They are not perfect, so test their teachings. I think you are making the Church equal with God. Can I ask you a question, I have tried a handful of different churches, including the Catholic Church, Does your church ever teach about the wrath of God? And Hell and damnation? Every church I have gone to never talks about the subject. So if we teach half of a gospel, doesn't that make us false prophets? People need to know what they are being saved from. One more question, Are the church leaders holier than the church members? In other words do they have more "Holy Spirit" in them than a church member?

I Love you too brother. God Bless...

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), May 26, 2003.

Cant help but pop on to reply to CS's questions for Eugene

>I have tried a handful of different churches, including the Catholic Church, Does your church ever teach about the wrath of God? And Hell and damnation?

Cs I have great trouble believing your claim to have "tried" the Catholic Church. Please go to the Catholic encylopedia at www.newadvent.org and type "hell" into the search engine... you should get a mere 997 document matches on hell to wade your way through. However I think it is fair to say that there has been over the past 50 years a shift in emphasis in sermons etc away from hell fire and brimstone although I am sure Eugene can tell you more about why the church has moved away from fear as a major motivating factor for attending mass.

>In todays Church In other words do they have more "Holy Spirit" in them than a church member?

CS I am sure others will correct me if I am wrong but off the top of my head my answer is NO. The clergy do not have any more of the Holy Spirit in them than anyone else although the Holy Spirit prevents the Pope from error when teaching on faith and morals, ex cathedra. Our Pope insists that every Christian is ‘another Christ’ and every bishop a Vicar of Christ. Most importantly he says ‘On reflection christianus has greater significance than episcopus, even if the subject is the Bishop of Rome’.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 27, 2003.

Christian Soldier:

Don't take attacks on your position personally.

I agree with Paul that your failure to accept any authority except your own is almost certain to lead to errors. The Bible is not easy to read. St. Augustine advises that before one attempts to interpret scripture, one should learn both Hebrew and Greek, and should consult several original manuscripts at the same time. (I of course fail miserably to satisfy any of these rules, but then I'm just relying on the authority of people who do).

I am pretty sure that I have not made any point that contradicts scripture. Please point out to me where I have done so.

On the other hand, Paul has authoritatively shown you how scripture directly contradicts your position, unless you interpret it in some strange non-literal ways. Apart from these texts, there are verses that clearly show that free will exists and that God is not the author of evil. Unfortunately, the text I'm familiar with (Sirach 15:11-20) is not in a Protestant bible, but St. James quotes it in James 1:13-15.

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia's article on predestination. to give you a more detailed and authoritative view of our position.

Here is a well-known sceptical article by Thomas Paine on Romans 9. Of course I do not agree with the article or its interpretation of the text (which happens to be the same as your interpretation). But it is entertaining reading and indicates some serious logical problems with your explanation of this text.

To briefly answer your questions, yes I follow my Church in believing that the Bible is inerrant in matters of faith and morals, though I also follow my Church in rejecting sola scriptura. As for whether I deserve to go to Hell, I will let God decide.

May I suggest that you examine your attitude to all "churches" in the light of the parable of the lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). By abandoning the flock because everybody else in it is a sheep, you may be abandoning the shepherd too and making yourself an easier target for the prowling wolf.

I regret that I must take a break from this interesting thread for a while owing to work pressures. Maybe I will rejoin it later if I get a chance and it's still alive. God bless.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 27, 2003.

Soldier,
Of all people to be offering ''spiritual food'' here! Let's see that: ''The Church is not God! Who do you think the Church is made up of? Men with sin tainted minds! They are not perfect, so test their teachings.''

WRONG. The Church speaks for God in the world. You have it in scripture. ''If he will not hear the Church, let him be as the publican and the heathen.'' Words of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit was promised to our Church: John 16:12 --''When He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will teach you (THE CHURCH) all the truth.'' The Church, for practical purposes is God in the world. Men are members, but can never corrupt the Holy Spirit speaking through her.

You are outside her, so you have a corrupted faith and/or doctrine. Both, I suspect.

If you were a child of the Catholic Church, your interpretation of the Bible would not be fraudulent. You are, unfortunately, a fraud, and the Church is the True Faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 27, 2003.

Sirach 15: 11-20

Do not say 'The LORD was responsible for my sinning,' for he does not do what he hates.

Do not say 'It was he who led me astray', for he has no use for a sinner.

The Lord hates all that is foul, and no one who fears him will love it either.

He himself made human beings in the beginning, and then left them free to make their own decisions.

If you choose, you will keep the commandments and so be faithful to his will.

He has set fire and water before you; put out your hand to whichever you prefer.

A human being has life and death before him, whichever he prefers will be given him.

For vast is the wisdom of the Lord, he is almighty and all-seeing.

His eyes are on those who fear him, he notes every human action.

He never commanded anyone to be godless, he has given no one permission to sin.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 27, 2003.

Bravo, Stephen--

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 27, 2003.

Folks – just an offer to cool the rhetoric - from a “Pro Testari (Affirming) Christian”. I suggest that a better way of understanding predestination is not in its metaphysical mechanics – the direction of this conversation – but in its purpose. Predestination asks the question, “Who is, at the last word, in control of salvation: the person being saved or the creator of the salvation?” Those of us who affirm Augustine and Calvin regarding this conversation come down on the side of the creator rather than the creation. To give any veto of God’s grace, either through rejection by the individual or a restriction by the church, would logically place humanity in ultimate control of salvation. However, predestination is really driven by pastoral concern. The purpose of raising the issue is to give the assurance of salvation that is promised to us through our ultimate trust in the Gospel of Christ. Without that assurance, we have to live with the ongoing threat that we are imperfect beings and experience the constant doubt as to our ability to hold on to the salvation that has been given to us. The very imperfection (sin) that grace is supposed to overcome, threatens to take that grace away. If the burden of getting and holding onto salvation (preservation of the saints) is lifted and we are simply asked to trust that God has the ability (grace) and desire (mercy) to save us and calling us to the elect, then we are set free from the bondage of sin, and our free will is liberated to respond to God with unending gratitude. Our gratitude – even in the midst of human limitation - is translated into worship (glorifying God) and loving action towards all people (good works).

-- Bob Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurch.org), May 27, 2003.

Sorry folks for the typo on my email address

-- Bob Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), May 27, 2003.

Christian Soldier, I can tell the Bible is your sword.

Taking the same quote you gave: Ephesians 1:4-5, the only predestined was Jesus Christ.

The rest of us, we make a choice.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 27, 2003.

Bob:

I cautiously think we agree at least with the broad gist of what you say (somebody correct me if I am wrong) though it is still possible to ask "Master, what must I do to be saved?" and to get a clear answer (Mark 10:17ff.) We don't dispute that God alone is our savior. Predestination of the elect is not an issue.

The issue is what happens if we change the word "salvation" to "damnation" in your question. "Who is, at the last word, in control of damnation: the person being damned or the creator?" In this case, our answer is not the same as Calvin's, for good reasons which the preceding posts and the Catholic Encyclopedia article cover in some detail. As an affirming Christian, you may feel that no pastoral purpose is served by talking about this unpleasant side of predestination. But then you may be preaching only half the Gospel, as Christian Soldier would doubtless point out.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 28, 2003.

Stephen; Your point is well taken. Yes, the Catholic Encyclopedia did a good job of defining the issues surrounding predestination. However – again, from this side of the tracks – the original state of humanity was in the presence of God (The 2nd Creation Story) until the fall of humanity in disobedience (or slothfulness – “She said it was OK to eat it.”) This alienated us from the presence of God. Therefore, in that state of sin – not knowing God’s love - we are all on our way to damnation.

Predestination views salvation as a rescue mission rather than an entry examination. As to who is rescued and who continues in their state of sin – that is not our area of expertise; it is God’s alone. However, from observation in world history, there are those who live in gratitude for God’s grace and mercy, and those who do not. Again, the answer of predestination is really directed toward the person who seeks the assurance that nothing will separate him/her from the love of God through Jesus Christ

Thanks for a thoughtful response.

Peace.

-- Bob Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), May 28, 2003.

God Bless All!

As Christ's children we need to discuss these issues and look out for one another. We should not argue, but learn from each other. I might sound repetitious but we should examine all the scriptures. I did some more homework, just hear me out and let's listen carefully to the scriptures. Remember we need to see mankind's position. We as a whole are all guilty before God. If God Did not create a salvation program, then the human race would be going to hell. None of us deserve salvation. We are all spiritually blind! We read in:

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away. 7 And there is NO ONE WHO CALLS on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us, And have consumed us because of our iniquities" This plainly tells us the human race will not call on Christ!

We read : "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

God indicates that He was completely sovereign in this. In Romans 9:15 He declares, "I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." "I will" is emphasized because God makes the decision. In Romans 9:16 God says, "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." This verse pointedly and plainly excludes man's will.

Another verse that gives further reinforcement, is Romans 9:18, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." When we read the Book of Romans, we might be reminded of the lyrics to an old hymn, which say, "Thou art the potter; I am the clay; mold me and make me, after THY will." This plea is based on the teaching of

Romans 9:20-23:"Nay but, O man, who are thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast though made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory."

In these verses God emphasizes that He is supreme; He has the power and the right to save those whom He wishes to save. God is under no obligation to save even one person in the whole human race . We all deserve to go to hell. We all deserve to spend eternity in damnation, under His wrath. The fact that He saves some according to His divine choosing, His elective program, is God's business altogether.

John 1:12 introduces the truth: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." If we were to stop right here, it would appear as if the choice is man's - those who receive Him are saved. But notice that qualifying statement in the next verse: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). God insists that He does the electing.

It is His will that decides who is to be saved. Those who believe in Christ do not do so of their own will because their will is altogether under sin. The doctrine that salvation comes only to those who are elect of God is also taught in Acts 13:48, where we read: "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." That says it all again, does it not? Not everybody believed, but only those who were ordained by God to believe.

God commands men everywhere to repent of their sins (Acts 17:30). It is easy to assume, therefore, that even though salvation is by grace, at least the fact that I have repented and turned away from my sins is a result of my independent will. I might conclude that because I have turned away from my sins, God will save me. Somehow I want to believe that repentance has something to do with my will and that it is apart from God's action. But even the thought of independence apart from God's action will not be tolerated by the Bible.

In Acts 5:31 we read: "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for TO GIVE repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." God plainly declares that even our repentance is given to us of God. God does not require that conditions be met before we can be saved. He takes an unworthy, rebellious, and wicked sinner and gives him repentance, as a result of God's salvation program in that person's life. Small wonder then that Ephesians 2:8-10 declares:" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The good work of repenting of our sins is also a gift of God. In Galatians 2:16 we read: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

God declares that it is "(by) [Greek dia = through] the faith of Jesus Christ," and "we might be justified (by) [Greek ek - out of] the faith of Christ." In other words, the basis of our salvation is not our faith - the basis of our salvation is Christ's faith. Because He was perfectly faithful in carrying out God's salvation plan, we are saved. No wonder Christ is called "Faithful and True" in Revelation 19:11. Moreover, we see that in Galatians 2:16 that God declares that we are not justified (by) [Greek ek - out of] the works of the law.

In John 6:28 the Jews asked Jesus, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus answered in the next verse: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." In this declaration, the Lord Jesus teaches that our faith whereby we believe on Christ as Savior is a work. Galatians 2:16 indicates that we cannot be justified by works of the law; therefore, we know that we can be justified only by Christ's work and not our own.

Our knowledge of the grand truth of Galatians 2:16 is further strengthened by Galatians 2:20, where we read: "the life which I now live in the flesh I live (by) [Greek en - in] the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." See also Romans 3:22 and Philippians 3:9. Returning to Romans, in Chapter 4, verse 5, God declares: "But him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted (for) [Greek eis - into] righteousness." "His faith" can refer only to God's faith, that is, God's faithfulness, which brings the believer into righteousness. This explains the meaning of the phrase in Romans 1:17, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed (from) [Greek ek - out of] faith (to) [Greek eis - into] faith." God teaches in this and the previous verse that the salvation of both Jews and Greeks is out of faith (Christ's faith), and into faith (our faith), which is a reflection or result of Christ's faith. We can understand Ephesians 2:8, where God declares: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." The faith through which we are saved is Christ's faith. He is the very essence of faith so that we could paraphrase this verse to say "For by grace are ye saved through Christ and not of yourselves. Christ and His salvation is a gift of God."

In every aspect of our salvation, we merit nothing. To God goes all the honor and the glory. By virtue of Christ's faithfulness we are counted righteous. Christ's faith is given to us as a gift so that we can trust in Christ as Savior.

One last verse, In John 6:37 we read: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." In this verse Christ insists that those whom the Father has given Him will come to Him. There is no implication that the whole human race has been given to Him, but if they had, then the whole human race would come to Him. God has chosen out of the human race those whom He will save.

Therefore, the logical questions follow: "If God has decided by His sovereign will to save some and leave the others to face the judgment throne, and be sentenced to hell and eternal damnation because of their sins, then did Christ go to the cross on behalf of every human being? Or, did Christ pay for the sins of only those who would believe on Him, that is, those who were chosen to be His, which is a limited number?"

Born-again believers or God's elected people are eternal members of the body of Christ; they belong to Him, and their sins are covered by Christ's blood. They are eternal members of the church that Christ came to build. Born-from-above believers are found in the congregations of one denomination or another. Even though all those within the congregation profess Christ, they are not all necessarily believers. This is shown in the verses we are studying; the false prophets of II Peter 2 were members of a congregation of believers, but they were not saved.

An example of a congregation that had many unbelievers within it is ancient national Israel. There was a remnant chosen by grace within that congregation, but the major part remained in unbelief. They were under damnation even though as a whole body they were the corporate representation of the Kingdom of God on earth during the 2,000 years that preceded the birth of Christ. Likewise, in the New Testament, God was represented organizationally or corporately in the world by the churches and denominations that began to spring up after Pentecost. Each of these denominations is officially identified with Christ and yet each is composed of both believers and unbelievers.

We see this clearly in the first three chapters of Revelations, where God talks about the seven churches of Asia Minor. Each church is represented in Heaven by a candlestick because each one represents Christ's church. Yet God warns that in one church there is a Jezebel, and in another church they follow the Nicolaitans, who are heretics of some kind. This mixture of believers and unbelievers can be expected in every congregation even though corporately the congregations identify with Christ.

Therefore the real true church are the true believers or God's elect which are scattered throughout the world. It can't be any physical church or the Catholic Church because we know there are wolves in sheep clothes(Priests) who are proclaming the Word within the churches and also sexually abusing boys. Only the spiritual church is perfect because they are cleansed by the Blood of Christ. This church is the Bride of Christ which are God's Elect!

God Bless...

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), May 28, 2003.

CS-- Stop this intrusion on our Catholic forum.

Take your foolishness elsewhere; nobody here appreciates your self-promotion and posturing. Anybody can post a wallpapered series of Bible verse. Go where this is appreciated. Don't pick on a Catholic gathering where all your nonsense is merely a nuisance. That's exactly what you are, a nuisance!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 29, 2003.

Christian Soldier:

Thanks for sharing your research. Some further reading for you.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 29, 2003.

Thanks for that link Stephen that is one of the best summaries Ive read. I hope poor ol CS reads it with an open heart and good mind. I dont know about "thanking" him for his "research" but nevertheless what I can I say; youre a very tolerant man! Welcome to the forum, are you in the SOuthern Hemisphere as I see you posting at similar times to me?

God bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 29, 2003.

Hi Kiwi: Thanks. I'm in Hong Kong. Probably not very far from your timezone.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 29, 2003.

Dear Stephen; That was a good summary of the Roman Catholic position on Predestination. If you are interested, this links you to the Reformed Church in America'a web page regarding the issue from our point of view - www.rca.org/aboutus/beliefs/.

Don't worry Gene, I'm not looking for converts, just a respectful conversation. And, C.S. - take a hint from a long time preacher - KISS - Keep It Short Sweetheart. Even my eyes began to glaze over.

For our RC friends, my guess it that CS is a Presbyterian. They like to write alot. The friendly joke goes about our Reformed Cousins is that they offer a prayer at the beginning of each general synod meeting for the trees who gave up their lives for all the written reports the delegates are about to receive. Peace!

-- Bob Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), May 29, 2003.

C Soldier presents
the usual warped interpretation of the Bible here, regarding the Apocalypse:

''Each church is represented in Heaven by a candlestick because each one represents Christ's Church.(WRONG.)--

Yet God warns that in one church-- (One bishopric, CS; --Tt wasn't an autonomous church because ONE Church is all Christ ever founded.) --there is a Jezebel, and in another church they follow the Nicolaitans, who are heretics of some kind. This mixture of believers and unbelievers can be expected in every congregation; even though corporately the congregations identify with Christ.'' WRONG, you skirt the problem saying ''corporately''. This isn't a corporation. It's a faith--! The faith of the apostles; one which determines all orthodox doctrine. The Catholic doctrine, Chris Soldier. Your ''discernment'' of the book of Revelations has this great flaw.

These seven churches in Asia were mission churches, under different bishops (angels), each of whose candlestick represents a See, the bishopric of one particular angel.

The Church was ONE Church; the Catholic Church. They (the seven) were not autonomous, or different churches, but obedient to Peter, as they remained for centuries. There is one Church founded on Peter, the Rock by Christ. He didn't found mini-churches. These warnings to the seven churches written for Jesus by John, accused some of straying from the authority of the Church under Peter. The true doctrine and perseverance in the One faith. >By allowing a flawed reading of Revelations (once more) to lead you away from the truth, you disregard the ONE Church. She was where all the seven churches of Asia received the Gospel. But they were under the Pope even in the days of Saint John the evangelist. The Church was already The Catholic Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 29, 2003.

Eugene

I would love from your professional opinion exactly how some body becomes a child of God? Please I want to learn I am very open. But you must promise that if you are giving me truth, back it up with scripture.

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 29, 2003.

You're already a child of God. You just aren't yet a True Believer. By this I mean, you've assimilated false doctrine. Your apparent sincerity here may mean grace from Our Lord is granted you to open your heart to his Holy Gospel as the apostles received it from Christ. Not as men have doctored it for protestant belief. There's a definite difference.

By saying you are already a child of God, I'm assuming you are baptised or expecting to be baptised. He loves you just as much as He loves Catholics; but you have to correspond to Him with unfailing faith. Until you do so, you let yourself down. He doesn't let you down, you have to blame yourself.

Once He has revealed His Gospel to you truly, and you believe, His grace will help you learn His divine Will for you in this life. Until He has, you will not be open to conversion, because the flesh is weak. You must pray.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 29, 2003.

Eugene

I am sorry, let me re phrase my question. How does somebody get to heaven? How does some recieve salvation and could they lose it?

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 29, 2003.

To all I know some will stop reading my messages becuse I writ too much, but perhaps I do so because I care. I did more homework that may clear things up. Please don't give up on me yet! Eugene I will have a different discussion with you.

Man by nature does not like this point of view because it underscores his spiritual deadness and robs him of his self-pride. It reminds him that he is not the master of his fate nor the captain of his soul, but this is the point of view that the Bible clearly teaches.

We have already learned that man is dead in his sins. He will not seek after God; he loves his sin, we are under a CURSE! We are prisoners of Satin. Man will never come to God. Therefore, if Christ had gone no further than offering salvation to the world, there would be no believers.

God's gracious and loving offer of salvation could be proclaimed to mankind for a thousand years, but no one individual in the whole human race would respond of himself. Man's nature is to be altogether in rebellion against God; no one seeks after God. If God did not act in the heart, no one would become saved.

Because God knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), He knew that man, whom He would create perfect and without sin, would of his own will rebel against God and be plunged into sin. Therefore, our Heavenly Father made provision for this dreadful fall by giving those whom He planned to save to the Lord Jesus Christ.

We read in John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." This verse refers to the elect, who were chosen by God before the foundation of the earth and whose names He wrote in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Three Greek words, ekloge, eklektos, and eklego, are translated as either election, elect, or chosen and used some fifty times in the New Testament. Some examples include: Romans 11:5, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election [ekloge] of grace." II Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election [ekloge] sure." Also, Colossians 3:12, "Put on therefore, as the elect [eklektos] of God, holy and beloved…." Titus 1:1, "According to the faith of God's elect [eklektos]." Matthew 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen [eklektos]." I Peter 2:9, "But ye are a chosen [eklektos] generation." Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen [eklego] us in him before the foundation of the world."

Predestination, like the word election, is an uncomfortable word for many people, who might hope that it is just a theological word that is not in the Bible. The fact is the Greek work proorizo, from which predestination comes, is found six times in the New Testament. We find it in Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son," and Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." We read in Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," and Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

The word predestinate is found in two other places in the New Testament. In Acts 4:28 it is translated to "determined before," and speaks about the will of God that Christ would suffer for our sins and that it was part of His divine plan that Herod and Pontius Pilate and others were against Him. In this context God says in verse 28, "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before [predestinated] to be done." So we see that God's counsel had predestinated beforehand what was to be done.

The word proorizo (predestinate) is translated to "ordained" in I Corinthians 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained [predestinated] before the world unto our glory." God speaks here of the whole Gospel plan that was predestinated by God.

In these verses God teaches that He had predetermined every aspect of the salvation program before the foundation of the world, including who would be saved. He did not predestinate those whom He saw would of themselves come to Him; that is an impossibility because every human being is dead in his sins - "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" (Romans 3:11). God looked down the corridors of time and saw the miserable human race after the fall of Adam, and He chose some of these wretched and rebellious sinners and elected them to salvation; the Bible teaches that He predestinated them to be saved.

If God simply looked for and saved those who came to Him of their own free will, then He could not speak of them as being chosen. It would be incorrect because God would not have done the choosing; it would be man's choosing. Man would elect or choose to come to God, and God would simply recognize those who are saved. God could speak of them as being recipients of the grace of God only and not of electing those who are saved. We read in John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." We are the elect of God if we have begun to believe in Christ as our Savior and Lord.

The Bible does not teach that Christ came to save those who were good: the Bible teaches that Christ came to save sinners. God declares in James 2:5,"Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them and love him?" We are rich in faith, of course, because God gives us faith; it is a gift. We read in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you ye saved through faith; and that not of your selves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Sorry for writing so much....God Bless

-- C.S (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 29, 2003.

CS:

You seem to be carrying on a conversation with yourself. Your posts will have better impact if you discipline yourself and focus either on responding directly to points people have raised earlier, or on raising a specific issue to which you would like a specific response.

By the way, the question you raised for Eugene was already answered by Paul on the other thread, in response to the same question posed by you? Scroll back and take a look.

Bob, (and CS):

A provocative question if I may. Your Arminian brothers in the Reformation stand on the same sola scriptura principle, so how come they end up with such a different story? Isn't this a problem with sola scriptura?

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 29, 2003.

Dear Stephen;

It’s not too provocative. Half of my family got to the United States through the Amish and Mennonite migration to Pennsylvania, and the other half includes the first Baptist minister to enter Pennsylvania.

While I am not an expert in this area (from the Baptist point of view) there are four prime areas of separation between the Anabaptist traditions and the Reformed Churches. 1. Revelation: Both Reformed and Anabaptist Churches accept that the primary form of revelation from God is from Scripture through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. However, the Reformed Church affirms that this revelation has to be consistent with the council of the Church. (Acts 15:28, “It seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit….”) That is why theological opinions and Reformed doctrine need to be affirmed by Synods. The Baptist traditions hold that private or individual conscience in interpretation has priority. 2. Authority: Reformed Churches (with the exception of Congregational/Puritan) recognize oversight by the council of regional churches (formed from representative ministers and elders of local congregations). These regional councils (classis, presbytery, diocese, etc.) have the authority of ministerial discipline in the areas of faith and practice, ordination of ministers of word and sacrament, and congregational oversight – discipline, creating or closing congregations, and judicatory review. Baptist traditions see the primary religious experience and authority stands with the local congregation. Councils are advisory only. 3. Tradition: (surprise!) While the Reformed Churches always defer tradition to scriptural revelation – the traditions of the Apostolic Church (Creeds, theological writings, worship, order, ethics, etc.) do guide the Reformed Churches. Only when tradition conflicts with scripture, the Reformed Church sides with scripture (“Reformed and always reforming”) [Note to RC friends: I know you hold that scripture and tradition do not conflict.] However, the Baptist Churches (as per my observation) appear to replace tradition with personal piety. This is why worship in many Baptist congregations tends not to follow a liturgical outline (approach, Word, response) but a formalized expression of personal prayer. 4. Baptism: The Reformed Churches receive infants and children in Baptism if their parents are believers, because the children are part of the covenantal promises of God to his elect. Baptists contend that only someone at the age of consent can choose to receive baptism. While there is disagreement about the age, it seems that the idea of one’s choosing to accept Christ through baptism (being born again) or good works seems (from this Reformed POV) to place the Baptists and Roman Catholics on the same side of the predestination conversation.

It seems that the difference is that the Reformed tradition holds that the primary expression of faith is when faithful individuals gather together as a community of faith (worship in Word and Sacraments, fellowship, and benevolence), whereas the Baptist tradition is a community of faith that is best expressed individually (piety and personal revelation through scripture).

If I misrepresented any Baptists following along, feel free to add the corrections.

This is a lot longer post than I like to make, but one more point (or rather 4).

In 1520, Martin Luther did not simply say, “Sola Scriptura.” It was a four-point explanation. Sola Gratia – God’s grace alone is the source of our salvation. Sola Fides – Only our trust in God salvation through Christ can bring us to live in the state of God’s Grace. Sola Scriptura – Only scripture is the boundary and final arbiter in maters of faith and practice. Sola Christi – Christ brings us God’s grace in person and is the object of our faith. Christ is the living Word of God and all Scriptures point to him.

He concluded the summary, “Soli Deo Gloria,” To God alone be the Glory.

Peace

-- Bob Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), June 04, 2003.

Thanks Bob, for the info on these sectarian communities. I'd like to recommend an old book to you. A number of things written in it are revealing about its author.

He was James Michener, recently deceased. The title is IBERIA, a 60's publication. Though he writes many fine travel anecdotes and insights into Spain & her history, (the Iberian peninsula), it's his wonderful thoughts on Catholicism that I enjoyed most. Michener was born and raised in Pennsylvania (I recall) adopted into a Quaker family. He remained a Quaker all his life.

But he identified with many Catholics in Spanish history; and was completely impartial. He considered himself a son of Saint james, the great apostle and cousin of Our lord. One of the highpoints of his book is his visit to Santiago Compostela; the shrine of the apostle. A Quaker who went along peacefully among the Spanish sympathizing all the while with her Moslem and jewish ancestry; he was a good man.

You'll find it in most libraries. In the book are valuable treatments on the Spanish Inquisition, the conquest of the New World, and even the Holy Roman Empire. Good luck!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

Dear Gene; James Michener lived a few miles from where I grew up. Yes, he is a favorite son and I like his writing. It has been too many years since I read Iberia - Alaska and Covenant were my last two. He was a character, as I recall, attempting to run for a local political position on the Liberty Party - libertarian. I'm not sure if he identified James as Jesus' cousin or brother. I don't know what the Quaker position is on that issue.

-- Bob Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), June 04, 2003.