I have been confessing the same sin of a grave matter for at least a year or two now. Going to communion after confession or going to confession at the soonest possible time at least. Every two weeks or so it is the same problem, confessing it along with any other sins. It is a problem with my brain’s gray matter. It’s a grave matter with my grey matter, rofl. I believe now that my confessions have perhaps been faulty because I know I will most likely do the same sin again even if I struggle harder or in a spiritually new manner in an attempt to extinguish it. It would be more proper for me to only confess other sins and wait until I can break the habit for good before addressing the habitual in the confessional. Meanwhile I ought not go to communion until the habit is broken for a length of time such as three months minimum. It may take another year or two until that happens. Who knows? Unfortunately the third precept of the Catholic Church is: “3. You shall humbly receive your Creator in Holy Communion at least during the Easter season.”

Since I am in constant sin concerning a grave matter and I may avoid communion for over a year as a result, would I be responsible breaking this third precept?

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 19, 2003

Answers

Habitual sin concerning grave matter.

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 19, 2003.

Dear Mike,

Obviously you need some help addressing this spiritual matter. You have repeatedly tried to address it on your own, unsucessfully. Have you been praying about this matter as constantly as you have been confessing it? If not, healing is not likely to occur. If you have been praying earnestly about it, have taken all the practical steps you can take, have made a sincere effort to avoid near occasions of this sin, and still have not had success, then you have to decide what to do next! Just doing the same thing for another year is apparently not the answer. Approach this the way you would approach a life-threatening medical problem. Because mortal sin is a life- threatening spiritual problem. If it were a medical problem, I think you might be a bit more aggressive about dealing with it. Perhaps the next step should be some spiritual counseling.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 19, 2003.

Paul

I pray every day for that healing. I go to daily and weekend masses. I pray the morning and evening office. I also talk openly about it in 12 step meetings, though not as much lately. I have talked with my priest at length many times on this. I never had a psychotherapist for it. Doing charity is probably one of the best things I could do to fight it. I didn't have the problem until I moved away from my home state. Maybe I'm lonely and depressed at the loss? I heard of a monk who took six years to overcome the same habit. I have heard of similar long drawn out efforts by people in 12 step meetings with my problem. Anyway, I think confession and going to communion is actually hindering my recovery because subconsiously it makes me think everything is alright. If I cut myself off from the community in a limited manner, than maybe I will wake up to what I need to do. I have to shock myself into doing something radical here.

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 19, 2003.

I say continue what you are doing. Preservance is important, when it comes to trying to be a better person. We are not perfect, and all of us have bad habits. No one became perfect overnight. Continue to pray, and confess this sin, every week to two weeks. Don't get discouraged.

Get in the habit of saying "Sacred Heart of Jesus, have Mercy on Me", when any serious temptation occurs, and bless yourself with Holy Water.

You receive grace from the Sacrament of Penance, and you are not allowed to hold back any sins. You have to confess all your sins. Also going a long time without communion would not be a good ideal, as you need the grace that God's gives us through this sacrament to become a better person. Don't deprive yourself of that grace.

I know people who took 20 years of constant fighting to give up bad habits! They never gave up, in the end they succeeded with God's help.

Email me, if you want to discuss things some more. God bless!

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), May 20, 2003.

Dear Mike,
Maybe a story relating to this our human condition, will console you and offer you hope.

Dame Juliana of Norwich, a nun and mystic of medieval England, was shown visions of Our Savior's wonderful loving relations with sinners. In one of these, Jesus was at the feet of his Almighty Father-- pleading for you and me.

Jesus implored God the Father: ''Father-- My brother is fallen into a deep trench by the roadside. He is face down, and can't rise from out of the mud. I want to help him come out; --Please have mercy on him!

She saw Christ as our Holy Mediator before the throne of his Father. On your behalf and mine! He implores mercy for us; Jesus Christ. In exchange for it, He gives up to the Father an infinitely holy sacrifice. His Passion and Death on Calvary-- Because He knows how badly we need Him, and how great is our weakness. If once we realise the efforts Jesus is making for us, and the love He has for us; our faith will never fail. We will persevere, no matter how many times it seems hopeless. It isn't hopeless, when Jesus Christ fights for us!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2003.

Gordon,

Thank you for your encouragement. I was looking at radios in Wal- Mart today and turned on the one I liked and a favorite radio speaker, Chip Ingram of Living On The Edge came on, (he’s Christian, not Catholic, that’s all the radio I get here). He gives a sermon- like presentation daily at 10 AM, he was just beginning his talk when I just happened to click it on. I stood in the Wal-Mart electronics isle and listened to the whole thing as shoppers whisked by the ends of the isle. No one came down my isle. I was left to listen for ten or fifteen minutes. It was a talk about how God loves us regardless of our failures. No matter how we behave, he constantly allows or does things in our lives that will draw us toward him. He doesn’t love me more because I do this or that good or bad thing. And that doesn’t mean I can do whatever I want. But it means his love for me as a person doesn’t depend on my holiness even though he wants me to live holy like his Son is holy. I became less discouraged for my failures, but they were still failures.

Maybe I should just keep on as I have been.

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 20, 2003.

eugene,

I like Juliana of Norwich. What I remember of her, which isn’t a ton.

My trouble with this sin situation must be my lack of patience. Jesus will see me through as you say. It’s the most frustrating thing I’ve ever dealt with before. I thought maybe I just deserved a harsh penance like they used to give in the early church for apostasy, perjury and adultery. Maybe I should have to kneel on the front steps of the church with my arms outstretched like a crucified person while people file in for mass and then have to sit in the foyer away from the people for every mass, and for five years. Maybe that will cure me like the popping of a pill does for a headache.

Seems like I could just have brain surgery or something...

It's situations like this that compels people to leave the faith too, I'm aware of that. But if I left Catholicism I would probably just be tested similarly in whatever Christian faith I went to, so that is not going to help. The line would just be drawn in a slightly different location and I'd have to do battle there. God has his ways.

It's situations like these that get people to try exotic cures. When we have cancer we'll try experimental medicine. When loved ones die we might be tempted to try Spiritism and seances. I know I ought to be faithful and Catholic because I really have no respect for this sinful habit and would like to see it go away. I was free of it for a year and loved it that way, but it came back with a vengence. So I know that it is better to be free of the enslavement to it and wonder if God just took away the habit for a while to let me see how I ought to be living and feeling.

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 20, 2003.

Hey Mike,

Stop beating yourself up....I talked to my priest once about a sin that I kept doing even though I wanted to stop and knew that it was a sin I was doing....In the confessional I was honest and said to the priest that I know I might do this same sin again, and I am sorry for it...but he said, that as long as I am truely sorry, and repent right away its all ok, that is why we have that sacrament of confession, you are to be forgiven if confessed with a sincere heart,,,,And guess what, it has been over 4 confessions now and I have not had to confess the same sin, nor do I think I will again for a long while...My secret??? Abstince....I took up that fast of NO eating or drinking cows milk or anything with cows milk in it....You dont have to go that extreme, but it is working for me....I think to myself,"Oh what can I eat today? Oh can't have that it has cows milk, and because if I do eat or drink this I will sin again...I have put that in my mind and it is working...Try a difficult fast, and you will see how much it will work for you....One last note: I was a glutton for CHOCOLATE before the Lenten season, but gave it up for my fast and guess what? Now I can't stand chocolate, it makes me sick to my stomach!!....Just try a fast and see what happens....God Bless, and Good Luck!!!

-- JACOB (FLAKE777@HOTMAIL.COM), May 21, 2003.

Have you tried the rosary? I found that just reciting it daily helped me surprisingly well in a similar situation. St. Louis de Montfort's book too has stories (some of them real yarns) about people cured of bad habits by the daily rosary. Daily 15 decades that is, he thinks the 5-decade version is for kids :-).

By the way, thought I'd share this article on the rosary by Pope John Paul I.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 21, 2003.

JACOB and Stephen

You guys are probably right. Prayer and fasting have always worked for the saints. It is what Jesus used to cast out the worst demons. I used to do more of it but sometimes felt I was going overboard with it. It requires moderation too. One time I think I hurt myself fasting, like I got malnutrition. And I think the devil would like me to overdo that stuff, to get me discouraged. However, I could probably do a bit more of it than I am currently. I used to do a whole lot more of it than I do now. And it backfired. I just don't have a lot of hope in it right now today. I think i can start by fasting more from certain foods but not going hungry. And maybe pray my office in front of the blessed sacrament more often. I hate that I am discouraged about this. I think because the first time I did this I overdid it and felt tricked. I was a spiritual glutton or something. I'll try a little more at a time, not too much at once. Thanks

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 21, 2003.

Mike:

First off, I have to confess that I'm backsliding both in saying the rosary and in my bad habit, probably there's a connection. Hopefully I'll get back on track. Please pray for me.

It's easier and more fun to motivate yourself with carrots rather than sticks. Also there's no commandment against it? (depending on the carrot:-) You could try rewarding yourself every day you stay away from the habit. I quote from David Burns "Feeling Good", page 213: [hope this is not a copyright violation]

"I found that the most difficult time to control my eating was in the evening when I was studying or watching TV. I'd have an urge to eat ice cream. So I told myself that if I controlled this urge, I could reward myself with a big, fresh, glazed doughnut in the morning and a box of Mason Dots in the evening. Then I'd concentrate on how good they'd taste, and this helped me forget the ice cream. Incidentally, I also had the rule that if I _did_ goof up and eat the ice cream, I could _still_ have the Dots and the doughtnut as a reward for trying or as a commiseration for slipping back. Either way it helped me, and I lost over fifty pounds this way."

I think the Rosary is particularly helpful because it's habit forming itself. Good habits often drive out bad ones. (Of course its main benefit is Our Mother's powerful intercession.)

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 21, 2003.

Mike and others,

You are struggling with something I think about a lot. Even though I am sorry that others are struggling too, I am also glad to see you all communicating about this problem. I needed some encouragement today, so I entered "habitual sin" at google.com, and I found you!

I too am trying to fully understand how a Catholic can continue to struggle as I have done with two different deadly sins without either despairing or giving up. The good news is that one of my struggles is largely over.

During the time I was overwhelmed by it, priests told me that the Church now understands there is a lessening of moral responsibility when there is a strong bond of habit. And that I didn't have to go to confession every time I fell. At first I thought they were just expressing the general loosening of morals that happened after Vatican II, but my experience seems to back those theories up.

It took many years before the first sin loosened its hold on me. Now if I ever fall into it, which I do only on rare occasion, I always go to confession before going to communion.

But I didn't always confess before communion, when that sin was something that dominated my life all day every day. The Catechism says that one of the marks of a mortal sin is full consent. If you sin in spite of yourself, are you fully consenting? I think not.

Someone mentioned Jesus pleading before His Father for His brother, one of us humans, who is in a ditch of sin. God knows we want to stop, and how much pain we feel when we fall. I think the pain of struggling against sin and failing is part of our penance. We have to humbly accept the struggle and the shame and the sense of failure and keep turning to God. He alone can sanctify us. We should attribute that to Him, and hand the whole problem to Him.

Don't stay away from communion. The devil would love to drive a wedge between you and your loving Saviour.

The thing that we don't get taught much is that a sin isn't just an isolated act. It is a disobedience that opens us to be taken over by evil. Even if we don't know how harmful something is when we start doing it, we still suffer its effects, just as if we didn't know that arsenic could make us sick and eventually kill us if we started taking small portions of it--against everyone's warnings. It may take years to get the effect of the poison out of our systems, or we may never fully regain the health we had before we first took it. But there is nothing that will stop the mercy of God if we keep turning back to Him as the source of our strength and healing.

Most Catholics seem to think that stopping sin is always a question of will. If I make up my mind, aren't I supposed to be able to stop doing something I know is wrong?

My failings in these areas have made me want to reach out to young people and warn them: avoid all venial and mortal sins like the plague, because they can take hold in your heart and take years to overcome, sometimes even a lifetime. Some people think they can sin for a time and repent later, not realizing that they may be bound by chains it can take years and many tears and struggles to break.

In my searching, I found clues that I am not alone. If you ever read the autobiographical account by James Joyce in his Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, you will find that for a long time he wanted to avoid sexual sins, which he had gotten involved in early in his life. He tried all the Ignatian spiritual exercises to no avail. After long struggles, he finally gave up because it was just "too hard." He left the Church and was a libertine and an athiest for the rest of his life.

Don't follow James Joyce. Don't give up the fight.

I'm still storming heaven for help with the second serious sin. But I can rejoice remembering that the Lord has given me the grace to turn away from the first one.

What do you think of all this? Make any sense?

Affectionately from your sister in Christ.

Roseanne

-- Roseanne Sullivan (roseannesullivan@sbcglobal.net), June 11, 2003.

keep fighting the fight, roseanne. BUT if you are in a state of mortal sin (not my call), you do more harm than good by receiving Holy Communion.

i hope that God will bless you.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), June 11, 2003.

"What do you think of all this? Make any sense?"

Roseanne,

Yes -it makes perfect sense to me...

I strongly believe my Wife may be in the type of situation you describe and reading your posting regarding your own personal struggle has given me much to consider...

I would say that initially she could and did probably stop doing something she knew was wrong; however, now she does not AND almost seems to not care anymore?

Like you assert, once evil takes hold it expands both in depth breadth... She has 'support' in her wrong doing and does not and will not listen to those who disagree... To quote our Parish Priest: "she only talks with those who tell her what she wants to hear or agree with her"...

My fear is that the longer she lives the lie, the harder it will be for her to see the truth in what she is doing.

Based upon your own experience, do you have any specific advice on what I might do to help her or what could possibly 'shock' one out of something like this?

Thank You.

Sincerely in Christ,

Daniel

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), June 11, 2003.

Roseanne,

Right On. I couldn't have said it better. (and I didn't) I am still confessing my habit on Saturdays, our standard day for confession, that is if it rears its head during the week. And I have been told by more than one priest, whom I have spoken with individually, that I am to go to Holy Communion during the week anyway as long as I repent in my heart, pray an act of contrition (or a perfect act of contrition depending on who is reading this) and then not worry, go to daily communion, as long as I go to confession on the upcoming Saturday. This is only for the habitual sin while it is active. A sin of grave matter that is habitual like cigarette smoking is habitual. As long as I fight it this way than communion is fine. If I don't fight it at all in any way than no communion either. The fact is, if I didn't fight it in any way I'd likely soon leave the Church as the James Joyce you mentioned. Thanks for the tidbit on him turning atheist over his sex sin. Good dose of medicine there. God Bless You dear.

Ian,

Roseanne's post was very clear and your warning her or us again about mortal sins and receiving communion is not instructive. Given her clear statement preceeding your post, that "BUT" you mention invites paranoia. Not helpful to anyone stuck in such a habit. Perhaps you have never been there?

Sincerely,

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), June 11, 2003.

Regarding James Joyce mentioned above and his sins...

I read that Joyce had deeper reasons for leaving the Catholic Church than just a habitual sex sin which he couldn't overcome right away. Perhaps it began as a common habit of relative lesser importance when looking at all possible sex sins, I am not sure. Ultimately however, his leaving was rooted in his upbringing by his father who regularly bad mouthed the clergy and early on expressed itself in Joyce's willfully frequenting brothels. It seems he soon acted out of choice not habit nor special mental condition.

If he really loved the Church and God yet had an adolescent sex habit, he might have simply not let it blossom into anything worse and not beat himself up for it either. Time and grace would eradicate it. But he quickly went way beyond that point.

I found the below quote about James Joyce from a research paper.

QUOTE

The rigorous Jesuit training he received appears to have been a turn off to the young Joyce and surely added to his growing contempt of the Catholic church. This anticlericalism was also fueled by his father, who constantly complained about the church and the clergy. This was a sharp contrast to Irish society at the time which was, for the most part, very devout. It is also interesting to note that John Joyce's frequency of appearance in his son's books is only second to the appearance of James himself...

...That summer was a very important one in Joyce's life. For some time he had been having "impure" thoughts and feelings and decided finally to throw off the hypocrisy of the church. He began visiting brothels in Dublin, experimenting with his awakening sexuality. This was the real point in which he turned away from the Catholic church. In A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, Joyce makes this statement, roughly equating to this point in his life:

"I will not serve that in which I no longer believe whether it call itself home, my fatherland or my church: and I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use, silence, exile, and cunning."

from

http://www.users.muohio.edu/shermalw/honors_2001_fall/honors_papers_20 00/smith.html

UNQUOTE

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), June 13, 2003.

dear Mike H

nice post.

you should know that i did not mean to create any ill-feeling by my earlier post. i am an addict but only a nicotine addict. i am able to function by and large as non-addicts do. but i do have some sense of how easy it is to get the addiction; and how desparately difficult it is to beat the addiction. my sympathies go out to all addicts.

you should also know that on Sunday i abstaned from Holy Eucharist because i need to make a confession. i did not enjoy that one little bit, but i did it anyway.

so yes, i do have some little experience of the other side of the issue.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), June 16, 2003.

Ian,

What I was trying to say is that a sin committed without full consent of the will is not a mortal sin, so a person can still receive communion. That doesn't mean that the sin is not wrong, but that the person does not have full control of his/her actions. At first when I heard that from a priest, I just thought it was wishy washy liberalism, but I believe it now.

Mike, You are probably right about the bad influence on James Joyce of the father who railed against the Church. I have seen that do a lot of harm. It is sad to see men like Joyce's father turn against the true faith and take their children and others with them--to their grave harm. My theory about why Joyce left the Church was developed as I was reading between the lines of _Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_. If the novel is truly autobiographical, the sin of frequenting prostitutes did not immediately lead to Joyce's leaving the Church, as you and the author you quoted believe. Stephen Daedalus tried to give up sex and he struggled for a long time to break the habit. He even tried the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises and was thinking of being a priest, but the sensuality had gotten such a hold on him that he finally gave up. The quote is in the novel somewhere. He found the struggle just "too hard."

Along with that was the same kind of intellectual pride I saw in myself when I was that age. He was able to challenge the priests with questions that they weren't nimble enough to answer to his satisfaction.

I wish there was more help for people who struggle and fail. The devil uses the sense of failure and despair to drive people away from the faith.

I don't agree with the author you quoted. I don't think he has the whole story. But it's interesting to share ideas with you.

I don't remember the name of the person who wrote about his wife hardening her heart about a certain sin. That kind of thing baffles me.

It breaks my heart to see friends and family decide they can still be good Catholics and still commit: . For example, I have a friend who married outside the Church to a divorced man and didn't accept that it was wrong. When that marriage ended she connected with a married man and married him when he divorced his wife. He died suddenly about 15 years ago, and she to this day thinks they were a good Catholic couple. She goes to Mass almost every day, and the whole family believes she is a good Catholic woman. Her son lives in the house with her and brings through a string of sleepover girlfriends. A daughter also lives there with her husband. They didn't marry in the Church, and their Church attendance is spotty, but they still think they are good Catholics.

The man who led my Renew group had been married twice outside the Church and was still welcomed as a leader in the Catholic Churches he attended. I met him after his second divorce. The next time he married, he decided he would have to marry a Catholic. He would hold the Renew meetings in his home, and his indifferently Catholic fiancee would come down from the upstairs and tell the group about how they woke up in the morning together and shared their dreams.

Something terrible is happening to people's morals. I am very upset about it, actually.

Enough about that.

God is giving me more strength to resist the second sin I mentioned. All I know is that His love for us is perfect.

-- Roseanne Sullivan (roseannesullivan@sbcglobal.net), July 01, 2003.

Wow, these are great posts. I am glad I wandered into this thread. Here is some sage advice from the Imitation of Christ on not foregoing Holy Communion easily. The full chapter is at this site

The enemy, knowing the great good and the healing power of Holy Communion, tries as much as he can by every manner and means to hinder and keep away the faithful and the devout. Indeed, there are some who suffer the worst assaults of Satan when disposing themselves to prepare for Holy Communion. As it is written in Job, this wicked spirit comes among the sons of God to trouble them by his wonted malice, to make them unduly fearful and perplexed, that thus he may lessen their devotion or attack their faith to such an extent that they perhaps either forego Communion altogether or receive with little fervor.
No attention, however, must be paid to his cunning wiles, no matter how base and horrible -- all his suggestions must be cast back upon his head. The wretch is to be despised and scorned. Holy Communion must not be passed by because of any assaults from him or because of the commotion he may arouse.
Oftentimes, also, too great solicitude for devotion and anxiety about confession hinder a person. Do as wise men do. Cast off anxiety and scruple, for it impedes the grace of God and destroys devotion of the mind.
Do not remain away from Holy Communion because of a small trouble or vexation but go at once to confession and willingly forgive all others their offenses. If you have offended anyone, humbly seek pardon and God will readily forgive you.
What good is it to delay confession for a long time or to put off Holy Communion? Cleanse yourself at once, spit out the poison quickly. Make haste to apply the remedy and you will find it better than if you had waited a long time. If you put it off today because of one thing, perhaps tomorrow a greater will occur to you, and thus you will stay away from Communion for a long time and become even more unfit.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 03, 2003.

Hello Mike, Just adding that if a grave sin has become a habit then it is not a mortaL sin because you are not consenting to it fully. For a sin to be mortal you have to really will to turn away from God and His Church. Devout Christians who are struggling to live a God-centered life, attending Mass each Sunday, praying regularly and going to confession do not commit mortal sins. You cannot alternate devout practice of the faith each Sunday with weekdays of being cut off completly from God's grace.

Keep receiving Holy Communion, this is a great remedy for sin and forgives your sins in itself. Also, keep looking at God. When St. Peter was walking on the water he was fine when he kept his eyes on Christ. If you take the water as a symbol of sin, disease, depression or evil he was fine until he looked down! Don't look at your sin, look at God!

Most people have some kind of habitual sin that keeps hold of them. You are not alone in this. God will free you when the time is right. At least habitual sin keeps us humble and, most importantly stops the sin of pride which is far more serious.

Please feel free to email me if you would like to discuss this further.

God bless you. Remember Christ was never horrorfied by sinners, nor wished to keep away from them.

Adrian

-- Adrian Lowe (adrianmlowe@yahoo.com), July 06, 2003.

Dear Adrian,
Please explain this seeming paradoxical statement:

Hello Mike, Just adding that if a grave sin has become a habit then it is not a mortaL sin because you are not consenting to it fully. For a sin to be mortal you have to really will to turn away from God and His Church.

A grave sin (your word) is mortal no matter how. If you were attempting to say a compulsion mitigates against the gravity of a sin, you're closer to the truth. Some actions are out of control because our free will has vanished.

You might consider the underlying cause of repeated sins, Adrian. When it's first committed, it's an act of free will. It's a mortal sin. If by God's grace, the sinner truly repents, he's absolved and goes on to sin no more. This is repentence. Then, unfortunately the sinner returns, backslides. He confesses once more. And once more, on and on; until a habit is formed.

This is not repentence, it is only compulsive at the end because the repentence wasn't perfect. Repent means to turn; go away from sin. This is the strict condition for our absolution. Many Catholics never repent; they only confess!

We must realise that forgiveness depends on STOPPING with the sin. Turning around, repenting. Nothing can become an ingrained habit if we truly repent. Thn, if we realise these things, we have to face ourselves and be completely honest. IT IS A SIN, a mortal sin, to repeatedly come back to what God forbids. We are not free of mortal sin just because we rationalize the habitual source. All temptation returns. It's habitual too! Our Divine Lord says plainly: ''If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off! Better to enter the kingdom of heaven maimed; than be cast into hell having both your hands.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 06, 2003.

Roseanne,

Don't know if you read my post above -so, just bumping this up to see if you can offer any insight/response to the question etc I posted earlier/above:

"Based upon your own experience, do you have any specific advice on what I might do to help her or what could possibly 'shock' one out of something like this?"

Thank you.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 07, 2003.

Dear Eugene and others,

Thank you for your response. Actually, 'grave' is not my word but rather the Church's as found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Grave does not mean mortal. Here is an extract from the Catechism (sections 1857 and 1862):

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: ‘Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.’ [RP 17 # 12]

The usual conditions are thus:

Grave matter Full knowledge Deliberate consent

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

A better word for grave might be serious, but as we can see if full knowledge and consent are not present then the sin is venial even if it contains grave matter. Therefore, you are quite wrong when you suggest that a grave sin 'is mortal no matter how'! The usual example that the Church uses is theft, which is a grave sin in itself, but is not considered to be mortal if committed with the purpose of providing food for one's starving family.

It is also debatable how much free will is involved the first time that a habitual grave sin is committed. We are all victims of our upbringing and the many influences that society throws at us. Perhaps none of us has free will. A priest once said to me that no- one has free will and so no-one ever commits a mortal sin! He is probably correct.

Here are a few comforting words from Saint Philip Neri:

'Many, feeling within themselves carnal temptations or the like, doubt sometimes whether they have consented or no; but if the person tempted feel in himself still a love toward that virtue against which he was tempted, and a hatred against that vice; it is a sign he hath not consented.' (Memorable Sayings, No. 66)

Regarding your comments on repentence; surely a penitant's presence in the confessional shows a strong desire to stop sinning? Forgiveness does not depend on 'stopping with the sin' as you claim. How many times did our Lord tell St. Peter to forgive others? Surely that number of sins must contain a few repitions and bad habits but our Lord tells us we must forgive each time. He does not set a standard for us that He does not adhere to Himself. It would also be a rather strange human being who confesses being a rampant adulterer, only to return the following week to confess murder, then theft the next week etc. Most people have a particular area of the lives that is troublesome. God forgives them each time they express sorrow and strengthens them against sin in the future. Let us remember the prodigal son who was forgiven by his father, although his motives for returning were hunger rather than genuine sorrow and repentance. Once we turn and glance towards God He runs to us and snatches us into His loving embrace.

Your last paragraph is rather alarming! If, please God, I am permitted into God's Kingdom I hope not find too many people who have mutated themselves to stop sinning, taking our Lord - the Master of metaphor and parable - at His word!

With my good wishes.

Yours in Christ, Adrian Lowe, a sinner

-- Adrian Lowe (adrianmlowe@yahoo.com), July 11, 2003.

Dear Adrian,
All of us are sinners. All of us are repeat sinners. I wasn't saying our sins are not forgiven; I said NOT forgiven without repentence. You understood: ''Forgiveness does not depend on 'stopping with the sin' as you claim. How many times did our Lord tell St. Peter to forgive others? Surely that number of sins must contain a few repetitions and bad habits but our Lord tells us we must forgive,''

You looked at it incorrectly-- I said repentence depends on stopping the sin. Forgiveness is what we ask when we truly repent. It is freely given us by God each time we actually repent.

But a mortal (same thing as grave) sin is not forgiven without true repentence. Christ said, ''If you do not do penance (repent) you will die in your sin.''

Repentence is strictly demanded by God of the sinner. Only if he stops sinning can he be called repentant. The ''habitual'' sin is unmistakably imperfect contrition. Only when we turn away; repent perfectly, are we sure of forgiveness.

Yes; God is merciful and will forgive us again and again. If our contrition is perfect. I'm only talking about imperfect repentence; and habitual sin is a sign of imperfect contrition; unwillingness to repent. This is the most serious matter a Christian will ever face. It's not to be taken lightly, or reasoned away by semantics.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 11, 2003.

Here's a real cause for alarm. Your words, ''Perhaps none of us has free will. A priest once said to me that no- one has free will and so no-one ever commits a mortal sin! He is probably correct.--''

Nothing could be farther from the truth. You have to dismiss even the word of a priest if he truly teaches something so contrary to the Word of God. He is denying the sins for which Christ sacrificed His life on the cross! Absolutely false. The only offender who has no free will is one who is mad or has lost his reason.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 11, 2003.

If we do not have free will, then earthly life is a meaningless charade. If we do not have free will, then God, if He is good, must intend that all people will be saved, and spend eternity with Him in heaven. Or, if He is a hateful ogre, He must intend that all people will eventually be thrown into the pit of hell for all eternity. Either way, why the meaningless delay called earthly life? If all men will spend eternity in heaven, why didn't God simply create them already in heaven? Why make them suffer for 50 or 80 years first? If all men will spend eternity in hell, why didn't He just create them there? Why tease them with meaningless pleasures for a few years first? The only meaningful purpose of earthly existence is CHOICE. Our short time here gives us the opportunity to choose where we will spend eternity. Nothing we do on this earth will ultimately matter at all, except to the extent that it relates to that one ultimate personal choice, and to the extent that it helps or hinders others in choosing their eternal destiny.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 11, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, Adrian.
I have to tell you that I agree with almost everything Eugene has written. (You can generally trust him. He has loads of experience with sin. We can even bear eyewitness to that. Just kidding!)

Gene is right to say that, regrettably, you were very badly advised by (or you misunderstood) that priest. God gives everyone free will, and most sins are probably committed through a genuine exercise of free will. (Some sinful acts are committed in inorance or under duress or after addiction -- and for these the guilt may be less or none at all.)

Gene is right to say that "grave sin" and "mortal sin" are synonymous. In fact, there are two additional synonyms: "deadly sin" and "serious sin." Don't let dissenting theologians fool you into thinking that there are more than two kinds of sin: venial and mortal. [In some places, people wrongly think that there is something in between these two -- usually labeled "serious sin." The pope says, "No way, Jose."]

Adrian, I think that one thing that has caused confusion is that there are two separate terms: "grave matter" and "grave sin." If the improper action performed can be termed "grave (or serious) matter" -- e.g., using contraception -- then it is possible for "grave/mortal/serious/deadly sin" to be committed. [The other two conditions must also be present.]
Does that help you see the distinction?

You wrote: "We are all victims of our upbringing and the many influences that society throws at us. Perhaps none of us has free will."

Well, I don't consider myself a "victim" at all. I have to take responsibility for what I do! The words you used are a "mantra" normally used only by liberal politicians and defense attorneys, to excuse criminals completely. It is true that the bad influences of life can adversely affect our freedom to a degree, but (as Gene said) almost all of us have enough free will to say "no" to most sins and to avoid their "near occasions."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 11, 2003.

Hello all,

Thank you for some intersting responses here. I am quite amazed at the replies: I was only trying to offer a little encouragement and compassion to a fellow sufferer; suddenly, a debate on the quality of one's contrition and how God forgives us has ensued.

Reading back, Roseanne seems to have said much the same thing as me. I will not add to the querrelous litany but will say that we are judged by the standard that we judge others. If I make excuses for people it is partly because I hope that one day Someone will make excuses for me. 'Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.'

I do not accept for one minute that habitual sins always repeat themselves because of a lack of repentence or imperfect contrition; it has more to do with our human weakness than badness or evil.

Wishing you all well on our journey towards Christ.

Yours in the Risen Lord, Adrian

-- Adrian Lowe (adrianmlowe@yahoo.com), July 15, 2003.

Adrian,
It wasn't my idea, but if you say so; Yes. I will indeed be judged by the standard I've just elaborated on.

But don't try to say you've been ''judged''. We aren't here to judge our neighbor. Everything I said to you is accurate. It may vary from one sinner to the next. But in principle, this is what our Church teaches us. Imperfect contrition will not gain forgiveness.

God isn't interested in the way you judged others. He won't need that ''clause'' in order to judge you & me on the last day. He is the Giver of the commandments, and we are the receivers. If we keep the commandments, or, if we repent of all our sins, He will be a Just Judge and love us for all eternity. If we break the commandments, and never truly change our works on earth, we'll be damned. --Our confessions of sin will gain us His forgiveness because we resolve to stop sinning. Not just because we're ''blessed by the confessor''.

This isn't as hard-nosed as it may seem. It is our OBLIGATION to Our Lord to reject sin. Not just to call it an unfortunate ''habit''. Habits can be broken, Adrian //

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 15, 2003.

Hi Eugene:

To paraphrase some of the issues in the original question,

1. If one is stuck in a sinful habit, should one wait until one is sure that the habit is conquered before going to confession? Otherwise, one can't be sure that one's contrition is perfect.
2. If the answer to the previous question is YES, should one stay away from Communion until the habit is conquered and the sin is confessed and forgiven?
3. What happens if one cannot conquer the habit for more than a year? Should one stay away from Communion at Easter and add sin to sin?

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 20, 2003.

One's contrition does not have to be perfect in order to receive absolution, and equally important to receive sacramental graces which strengthen us against further temptation. To suggest that we should shun the principle source of healing grace because we are in great need of healing grace would be ridiculous. Worse than ridiculous, it would be the kind of senseless thought that Satan Himself would plant, in an effort to errect a barrier between ourselves and the healing we need. The enemy would like nothing better than to see us struggling with a spiritual problem by our own efforts, while rejecting the principle source of grace God is offering us.

One should not receive Communion while in a state of unconfessed mortal sin. Again, all the more reason to go to Confession frequently, especially if we are dealing with a serious habit of a sinful nature.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 20, 2003.