22 Year old...Violated

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Hi guys... As you know I am a usual to this site. Thank you for all your insites on the subjects I have talked about.....Today we had 3 special masses to honor our lady...I went to all three masses and learned quite a bit about her....After the last mass that day, I was greeted by one of the priest who has been helping me through a lot of my problems that I have been going through this past year....He has been a GREAT help...everytime I see him I am happy to see him because he is the only person I can talk to and not be pushed away or told to shut up or leave me a lone....I am 22 years old now....I know it sounds silly to want hugs, but after this past year something happend to me and because of it, it has been hard for me to touch people. I have not been able to get close to my mom or siblings or friends......Well the Priest has been helping me by telling me that everything is ok, and I always feel 100x's better after visiting him at the church or the rectory....but today I think he went a little to far....He first told me when we first met back in August that he didnt want me to think that he was trying to "take advantage" of me because he knows after what I have been through this past year that it would be difficult to get near anyone.....Well I believe fully in our faith....People have been saying that I shouldnt believe in Catholism because it is dumb...but I ignore people like that (including my family)...but today I was violated and I am beginning to think people were right..I went to the rectory today and talked to the priest...then I noticed that he got closer to me and then he put his hands on my legs (I was wearing baggie jean shorts) He then kept talking to me and then he put his hands slowly up my shorts....I didnt move...then he got close enough to were he was able to touch my pubic hair...I flinched a little, but then he stopped. He then just hugged me because I started to cry a bit....I wasn't crying because of what he was doing, it was because of my situation at home.....I usually go to mass 4 times a week, but after today, I dont know what.....After church today, I came home today and went to bed...I usually go to mass on Wednesdays but I dont think I will go tomarrow....I want to tell my mom, or someone else but her and I are not seeing eye to eye at the moment, (She is my reason for seeing the priest).....I cant talk to my siblings about this because they all including my mom have warned me from the start about Catholic Priests (In general)...I AM NOT SAYING EVERY CATHOLIC PRIESTS IS BAD, NOR AM I SAYING OUR CATHOLIC FAITH IS BAD either....Even though my family was right about the warning they gave me, I still believe in our faith 100% unlike them...I am the only one who goes to church in my family...Everyone else has stopped believing ..but anyhow, I am thinking about this Saturday day when I go to confession to tell one of the other priests about what happend to me...I am a believer in total FORGIVENESS 100% and that is why it is so hard for me to say anything about it....I forgive this priest, but I doubt very much that anyone else will forgive him based on what I have seen in the media lately...Thanks for reading you guys, and letting me get some feelings out.... I will keep you posted about how everything goes with me.

-- Jacob (flake777@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003

Answers

Jacob, there is something missing in your story. Hugging is one thing. Touching with hands is something else. I think you don't want to be specific. I understand. I used to know a priest like that. What do I suggest. Stay away. Change parish. I don't know if you confronted him. There is a lot of information missing. You can email me if you want to be specific.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 13, 2003.

Call your bishop, Jacob. Let him know all that has happened. Give the offender notice that he is being denounced. You may not be a minor, but you can still make it very public. This is not a priest who can be allowed to remain at his parish post. He is homosexually active, and should be thrown out. If YOU are a real man, don't take it quietly. Protest, and don't let anyone silence you.
You will be doing a spiritual work of mercy for your church community, exposing the evil. If you keep silent, you will have acted hypocritically in complaining here to this forum. Try to put your personal sensibility behind you; confront the evil man. Do it aggressively for the sake of your Church. God will support you; andd all of us here will pray for your vindication.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 13, 2003.

amen to eugenes comments,
if you have a hard time going to the bishop, at least tell another priest at another parish. i find that some of the older priests (50's) in my area seem to be willing to go to bat against this type of thing. DONT LET THIS PROBLEM GET AWAY. the church has a policy now that handles this, and all you have to do is report it so that the proper procedure can be followed. i wish you the best of luck and please keep us updated of your situation.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 13, 2003.

Thank you guys for believing me, I thought you all would think that I was joking like the yahoo post did...I am taking to heart what you guys said...Some said for me to talk to the bishop....Well guess what,,,As it turns out, this coming Sunday at my church, the bishop is coming so that he can give the confirmation sacrament to the newly baptized and those recieving first holy communion....I will keep you guys posted on how it turns out....

-- jacob (flake777@hotmail.com), May 14, 2003.

Jacob are you telling the truth? If so what this priest did is WRONG. He needs to be confronted and required to REPENT, and temporarily STEP DOWN from his office, remeber he has an office of PUBLIC TRUST, HE MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. This sounds almost like sexual asSault, yes you should forgive him but he must also repent least he attack/seduce someone else, if he does not sincerly repent and demonstate this by repenting, asking your forgiveness, AND inform his Bishop to be accountable for the sake of the parish and other sheep in the Catholic flock you might also do the following:
INFORM THE BISHOP of this violation and ask if he will take any action, he is obliged to if not also consider contacting the National conference of Bishop with your concern, I believe they would have a policy that Bishops may use to discipline eering Priests (and Bishops who do notdiscipline their clergy)
GO TO THE POLICE and find out if this is a CRIME, if neccessary take someone else with you for moral support. Remember these action are not for vengence but for the repentance and changing of this Priest so that his soul might be saved, also so he does not seduce someone else, it dangerously sounds close to an adult version of pedophilia.

-- Anthony Patterson (cdiscipulus@catholic.org), May 14, 2003.

excellent advice Anthony. Jacob do exactly what the man says.

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 14, 2003.

He must "temporarily" step down??? How come someone who divorces is denied the Eucharist for life, but a sexual molestor is allowed to celebrate the Mass???
Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), May 14, 2003.

A follow-up thought . . . God hates divorce, but God considers homosexuality an abomination (Le 18:22 and Le 20:13) and Jesus warned about anyone harming/offending his little children (not that Jacob is a child, but most victims are in their early teens), that it would be better for them to be drown at sea with a millstone tied around his neck. Where's the perspective here? How can the Church possibly even consider doing anything but to dismiss such a priest for life - not just temporarily - and to bring him up on charges publically in the court of law. To do anything less is inconceivable.
Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), May 14, 2003.

A second follow-up thought . . . Jacob, I can understand why you would be reluctant to become the accuser here. How will others react to you? Will they believe you? What if they don't? If I were in your shoes, I can see where I'd prefer to make a private appointment with the bishop to discuss the matter in private. But if he fails to act based on evidence or whatever, it might become your obligation to make sure that priest doesn't harm anyone else - think of the altar boys whom he may be actively molesting even now. So you have to decide how far you're willing to go. The good news is that we're no longer in the 1950's and 1960's - our collective naivte and ultra- conservative respect for authority is no longer intact. Today, people will be much more willing to believe you and act - even if the bishop doesn't do anything, if you go public, at least the parents of children in your congregation can know of potential dangers and act to protect their children. That, in and of itself, would be worth any price to me personally if I were the victim and I, as a parent, would be eternally grateful and indebted to anyone brave enough to step forward and reveal such an evil if it helped me to protect my child. You have no idea how much parents worry about such predators. Parents will believe you Jacob and be thankful, even if others don't.
God speed sir.
Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), May 14, 2003.

dave,
please dont advise us on matters of the church. the priest will most likely never lead a mass again. but he is allowed to step down temporarily because he can be FORGIVEN.
what happens in the church, friend, is that a priest who stands accused of such is brought to justice in the church. if found guilty, he will be sent to counciling and be punished by the church. keep in mind that we ascribe to a higher law than any country. if and when the priest is deemed to be ready to return to service they will work in a job of little public influence... namely, they wont work at a parish. there are plenty of jobs that this priest can switch over into to be continuing in God's work.
for a non catholic you seem to have a hard time understanding the idea of Gods love and forgiveness that comes with repentance. isnt it normally the other way around where we have to go to confession and such and YOURE the automatically forgiven? regardless, a person who gets a divorce and then gets remarried in a non valid marraige is in a state of sin. so is the priest. NIETHER ONE CAN RECIEVE COMMUNION UNTIL THEY HAVE REPENTED AND RECIEVED PENANCE.
another thing, you insinuate that this priest is molesting boys. you know, not all homosexuals are pedafiles as well, so dont throw a stone you dont know is appropriate. remember that whole dont pass judgment on others thing?
Jacob, what the priest did was definately wrong, and should be reported. you know my opinion and i support you in your choice, you should definately report this, but dont take it as a hit against the church because of the stupidity of one poor priest who has managed to somehow get into the church.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 14, 2003.

Paul,
Just to respond to a few of your comments:
"please dont advise us on matters of the church.
I wasn't advising, just question in very strong terms and as one who served 6 years as an altar boy in the Catholic Church and as a member of the community that is impacted whenever a predator is on the loose. I am questionning from a position of relevance for me. And I can tell you, that EVERY parent in that congregation would back me on this.
the priest will most likely never lead a mass again.
I'm relieved. But if he retains the title of priest, does he not still carry the authority to celebrate the Eucharist? And is that right?
but he is allowed to step down temporarily because he can be FORGIVEN.
Agreed. There can be forgiveness. But there are also consequences - more on that later.
what happens in the church, friend, is that a priest who stands accused of such is brought to justice in the church. if found guilty, he will be sent to counciling and be punished by the church. keep in mind that we ascribe to a higher law than any country. if and when the priest is deemed to be ready to return to service they will work in a job of little public influence... namely, they wont work at a parish. there are plenty of jobs that this priest can switch over into to be continuing in God's work.
That's a fine thing, but it's not what happened before as you know. And there is reason to be concerned whether or not that is consistently being applied now - I suspect it may be, but I also believe that it's up to the congregation to ensure that the priest is never allowed authority over any potential victims again.
for a non catholic you seem to have a hard time understanding the idea of Gods love and forgiveness that comes with repentance. isnt it normally the other way around where we have to go to confession and such and YOURE the automatically forgiven?
And here's the "more later" part I promised . . . but a priest is clearly held to a higher standard by God and the Church and should be. Anyone in a position of authority over God's sheep must always be a good shepherd. If one violates the sheep, that person must never be allowed to be in a position of authority over the sheep ever again.
Our civil courts are applying that principle to sexual offenders now who are released from prison into society . . . they can never hold certain jobs and even their neighbors are warned of the presence of a past predator in the area. That predator will and should always wear that label - yes, it's the scarlet letter, but it's earned and just. If, as you say, the Church holds to an even higher standard, how much more so should the justice of the Church prevent a predator from ever finding another victim. Allow forgiveness where appropriate - absolutely. But there are consequences of sin that extend beyond forgiveness.
another thing, you insinuate that this priest is molesting boys. you know, not all homosexuals are pedafiles as well, so dont throw a stone you dont know is appropriate. remember that whole dont pass judgment on others thing?
Yes, I am absolutely insinuating that altar boys are indeed in danger around this man. Many of the recent victims of priests are 11-15 year old boys. The problem that has hit the Church is not so much pedophilia, it's homosexuality. Pedophiles generally go after very young victims. Homosexuals often persue teen and pre-teens as "partners" - but as you can see from this priests actions, he didn't approach Jacob as a "partner", he was molesting him. There was no discussion about a possible relationship - as much as that in and of itself is disgusting - this priest simply used his position of authority to force himself on Jacob. That's not only a sin, it's a crime and it's the same pattern of the other predator priests who have gained so much notority of late. So again, where there's smoke, there's often fire. Make no mistake, this priest's actions indicate that altar boys in that parish are very much in danger. If I were Jacob, I'd hire and attorney and investigator to interview altar boys to see if any had been similarly accosted.
Sorry for seeming to be so intractable on this issue, but as a father of 2 young children, it's part of my nature. If anyone ever "touched" one of my boys, heaven help him if I ever caught up to him. The words "rage" and "wrath" would take on new meaning. Never mess with a lion's cubs. And you can only understand this fully if you also have young children - not saying you can't understand to some degree, but that fraternal protector nature only comes out once you hold that newborn in your arms . . . something inside you turns on and you vow to protect this little life from all dangers.
Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), May 14, 2003.

dave,
i understand your concern as a parent, and i can see your point. understand what im saying though. youre up in arms about needing to go to the police, but what will happen there is a settlement outside of court to keep the case from the news, and the same thing will happen to the priest that would happen if it was simply reported to a bishop, as is more appropriate in this case. as i said before... church law is above the common law of any country. and yes, a priest who is condemned as a molester is never allowed to say a public mass and celebrate the eucharist again. thats a new policy, so we'll see in the next few years how well it works.
dont get me wrong. the priest was wrong, and if the bishop or the council of bishops wont do anything then it would be great to go the the law, but as someone outside of the catholic church you have to understand our structure. we have our own laws (cannon) and such that we follow, separate and more important than national law.
remember, before you judge this priest, that he is a man. a man with a calling to holy orders, but still a sinner like the rest of us. God might hold him to a higher standard, but if every priest or nun who ever sinned was not capable of gaining forgiveness then half our saints would not even be sainted. and, statistically speaking, startlingly few homosexuals are actually pedofiles... thats a rumor dating back for decades.
are you a pedofile of young girls? no. so why would a gay necessarily be attracted to young boys? that doesnt make the action any less wrong, but you shouldnt assume because of one wrong act that an entirely separate and even worse act is occuring. we know and can judge that homosexuality is wrong, but passing the judgement that the priest must also be molesting altar servers is just the type of judgement the Bible warns us against.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 14, 2003.

�little paul�
You said:
�we have our own laws (cannon) and such that we follow, separate and more important than national law�
It�s simply untrue to say that Canon Laws are �more important� than the laws of the land in which we live. Criminal acts are Criminal acts, and we are subject to the Criminal Justice System. The members of the Catholic Church abides by the law of the country in which they live, we do NOT condone nor should we cover-up any kind of sexual abuse. I don�t know if any abuse took place with Jacob, I don�t know him, I don�t know the priest he�s speaking of, none of us do. However, if what he claims happened actually did happen, he is entitled to go to the Bishop and/or the police. The catechism of the Catholic Church tells us specifically that we are to submit to secular authorities.
1897. "'Human society can be neither well-ordered nor prosperous unless it has some people invested with legitimate AUTHORITY to preserve its institutions and to devote themselves as far as is necessary to work and care for the good of all.'[John XXIII, PT 46.] By 'AUTHORITY' one means the quality by virtue of which persons or institutions make laws and give orders to men and expect obedience from them." 1898. "Every human community needs an AUTHORITY to govern it.[Cf. Leo XIII, Immortale Dei; Diuturnum illud.] The foundation of such AUTHORITY lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society. " 1899. "The AUTHORITY required by the moral order derives from God: 'Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no AUTHORITY except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.'[Rom 13:1-2 ; cf. 1 Pet 2:13-17 .]"
Dave (non Catholic Christian),
Please be assured the Church does not take these things lightly. Here we have Child Protection Officers appointed in every parish. Anyone who works with children for the Church must be cleared by the Criminal Records agencies. There are strict guidelines laid down for anyone who works with children. Nobody can deny that human beings have made mistakes, and committed acts which were grossly inappropriate, and these acts can never be condoned. However, the Church here has got taken the necessary steps to try to ensure this doesn�t happen again. Cover-ups just won�t be tolerated in today�s society, and rightly so. Here the Church obeys the rules that our government has set up for anyone working with children/the disadvantaged. Nobody can say for sure that bad people will never do bad things again, either members of the Church or the secular society. However, we have taken/are taking steps to minimise the risk of it happening.
God bless

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 14, 2003.

Dave, I meant to reply to something that you said: 'The problem that has hit the Church is not so much pedophilia, it's homosexuality.
The Church condemns the ACT of homosexuality, not the homosexual person. We are to love everyone regardless of their sexual orientation. The fact that a priest is homosexual really is irrelevant, as they are supposed to be celibate, just as any heterosexual priest is supposed to be celibate. Homosexual priests and laity may participate fully in the Church...as long as they are not physically living-out their sexuality.

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 14, 2003.

I believe we are in the great Tribulations, the last event before Christ's return! The following verses describe the great tribulations which sounds like what is going on in all the churches today.
In 1Peter:4:17:"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
2Thessalonians: 2:3:"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only HE who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even HIM, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 � But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
In Mathew:24:12"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!.........
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened........
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
I only gave some verses that speaks about Satin ruling in the churches. Read them again very slowly. If you do a study on ancient Isreal, you will see that Isreal is a picture of today's churches. Read the book of Jeremiah (sounds like today's newspaper) Mathew:24:29"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 � Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
May the Lord give us wisdom!

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 14, 2003.

thats great soldier, why dont you post that on a more relevant forum?
sara,
i get what you mean... but heres what im saying: a state or nation outlaws prayer, and arrests anyone who is seen praying. should we allow ourselves to be arrested? yes. should we continue to pray despite the authorities? yes. and, i forget which pope, but it has been declared by the pope that church law takes precedence over normal law. precedence though, not cancelling. i dont mean to say that lawlessness is okay, but instead that one should take the proper route to law.
besides, technically what the priest did would not be considered illegal. he made an advance on a person of legal age, and stopped when it was apparent that person did not consent. what the priest did was MORALLY wrong, but not SECULARLY illegal. if jacob goes to the police and brings up charges what will happen to the priest will be no different(the church will be the one administering justice outside of the court system), accept for a settlement charge...
but Jacob, if you feel you need the money in order heal your emotional dammage, by all means go to the police. from what you have said however, it appears you are incredibly healthy in your faith if you are still able to forgive this priest after this. although it appears to be a difficult time in your life, youre faith and devotion to Gods ways are inspiring. i pray that every christian could continue their faith like that, even in easy times.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 14, 2003.

Hey everyone ....Again, thanks for the postings and encouragement...I really need a group of refuge right now, I have been reading all of your postings all day as they came into my email box. THANXZ...Just to update you guys on the happenings of the day with me, well....I did email my Aunt and I told her about what happend and ask her not to talk to my mom about this yet and my aunt said she would call me when she gets from work to talk about everything...I also told my mom that something did happen, but I did not go into detail about this with her...She says that she thought something might be going on. She kept wondering why the Priest hugged me EVERYTIME he met up with me...and She also wondered why he let me go to the rectory with him and at times he would drive me home from mass.....I still have until Sunday until the Bishop comes to my church to preside over mass....I am a little nervous about what I MUST DO as a Catholic to stop this priest from hurting anyone else......In the morning I am going to call two elderly friends of mine who go to the church with me.......These guys have been there for me when I have cried, or when I needed someone to talk to....I need these guys as my support when I met up with the Bishop Sunday...Thanks again for all the support form this posting site.....Jacob

-- Jacob (FLAKE777@HOTMAIL.COM), May 14, 2003.

Hey Jacob I am unsure of what constitutes sexual harrasment in the United States but in NZ I know it is defined as
Sexual behaviour, language or visual material which is unwelcome or offensive and either repeated or significant enough to have a detrimental effect on the person subjected to it.
My advice is to see your family laywer before you see the Bishop. I would ask your laywer to be with you when you discuss this with the Bishop, or at the very least Jacob DO NOT see the Bishop by yourself. There may be grounds for a legal case here,there is no reason not to go to the police or see a lawyer just because this man is a priest. On the contrary it is even more of a reason he be dealt with in the correct manner . That corrrect manner is most certainly not the Bishop, (hopefully he will help and support you ...if not be sure to complain to his superior) but the church has neither the ability nor the authority to investigate criminal behaviour.
The corrrect forum for dealing with breaches of LAW is the legal system not the Church for many many reasons. If the priest broke the law he must be punished by the law.
SO FIND OUT WHETHER HE BROKE THE LAW AND IF HE DID PRESS CHARGES
rermember...
The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God.
Take care Jacob

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 15, 2003.

sorry Ive just read you will have other people with you when you see the Bishop.

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 15, 2003.

Hi: I'd like to strongly endorse everything Dave said. Whether he's Catholic or not, what he said is the plain truth, and I'm glad he said it. I hope Jacob takes legal action, and also complains to the Bishop. Good luck to him, and I wish that Judas priest a speedy departure from the Church.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 15, 2003.

Hey there again guys, I thought I would check my messages before going to bed.....Please I wish that no one would suggest that I take legal action against the priest or my church. I dont plan to, by no means is that an option.....believe it or not, I have been through A LOT more worse situations than this one....I dont believe in punishing this priest through legal action. I will just let the Bishop handle all that stuff..The priest made a mistake and I FORGIVE him 100%....He has been there for me in ruff times when other people were not....I am not defending him or anything like that, but I do owe him a lot for his guidence thoughout these last 10 months that I have been attending his church....If I was younger or if it was my child that this happend to, I would probbly want the priest to go and rot in prison, but being 22, I cant think like that..... I will NEVER forget what my church Deacon said in one of his homilies when I first started going to that church....What he said was: "People, we need to stop being smorgousborg Catholics". What he then told us was what a non smorgousborg Catholic is...He also said that as a Catholic, we can not sit there and say oh I forgive the guy who stole money from me, but I cant forgive the guy who stole my car.... both guys should be forgiven EQUALLY...We believe in forgiveness, no matter how bad our neighbor has harmed us.......I have to follow in what our faith teaches and just forgive him....All I hope for him to do on Sunday when the Bishop comes is for the priest to tell the truth about what he did to me....I was crying a little while ago because I really feel sorry for this priest... (Sounds crazy I know)...But I just dont see any reason to be angry with him....I mean yes he did violate my trust in him, but he made a mistake.....I have been sick to my stomach all day long thinking about what I have to do this Sunday, but by no means will I take legal action against him.....

-- Jacob (FLAKE777@HOTMAIL.COM), May 15, 2003.

Hi Jake,
I've emailed you.
My prayers are with you, but I forgot to add (((hugs))).
God Bless.
Pax Christi. <><

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), May 15, 2003.

Jeremiah:23:23 "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house." Romans 3:4 "God forbid *: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. "
I thought the Catholic church was the pillar and ground of truth?
God certainly is showing us the real truth. The dirt is finally coming out. God and His Word is the pillar and ground of truth.
Paul I am sorry that the truth hurts but do not let your pride blind you. I'll pray for you.

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 15, 2003.

I thought the Catholic church was the pillar and ground of truth?
if you really thought this, then why do you place your faith in secular law when we have our own laws and can ensure that the priest is healed as opposed to merely sued?
God certainly is showing us the real truth. The dirt is finally coming out.
yes, we are seeing some truths of the works of SATAN. not God. I for one think that these priests need to be rooted out and corrected by the the church.
God and His Word is the pillar and ground of truth.
no, God is not the pillar of truth. God is the FOUNDATION of truth. the church is the pillar built on this foundation, which upholds the great building that is truth.
Paul I am sorry that the truth hurts but do not let your pride blind you. I'll pray for you.
dont lecture me on the truth hurting, or pride. youve quoted me a bunch of scriptures completely unrelated to what ive said and then used it to bash the catholic church and say that it isnt the pillar of truth. pride? you insinuate that two THOUSAND years of the church has been wrong, but that you have the answer that all the saints, and over a billion Catholics are somehow missing. tell me where your church on the street corner is so all of us catholics can abandon the sacraments and miracles of our Lord and come to your neighborhood to hear the good news carried by you.
jacob, you have a healthy faith and more wisdom than i see here. may God go with you in all that you do.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 16, 2003.

Fundamentalists often lose the forest for the trees.
Don't beat people with scripture quotes, any fool with a concordance can do that.
Try staying faithful to the Church, inspite of its sinfulness, instead of being adulterers and forming other Churches.
Known as catholic from the times of the apostles, she remains. When you are wronged by people in the Church, complain. Speak up. Yell at the Church if what is wrong is serious enough. If you do not want to participate, step back. Don't contribute if she is seriously wrong. But you should be certain you are on solid ground and watch who your friends are. The company you keep often tells alot.
But when you are part of the "separated bretheren" you really are part of an adulterous group, centuries old often, who have followed their own path without heeding how they have strayed in their myopia.
You have simply divorced your spouse and remarried another. And, sorry to tell you, your real spouse still lives. The one you are with is not your spouse. I think I've heard something like that before? HMMMM. You must reconcile with your spouse, she still loves you.
Warts and all, she is the bride of Christ.
Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.

karl, what in the world does that have to do with anything?

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 16, 2003.

Hi Paul, I thought it was a very good post, thanks Karl! Re read his words, perhaps Ive got it wrong but I think Karl is directing his comments at Christian soldier, in effect suporting your view.
Blessings

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.

okay, i reread the post, and i get what it means... i think he's supporting my position. sorry about my rough style, what i should have said is "karl, please explain in more detail what you meant about that fabulous text." i get a little hasty when im tired or stressed.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 17, 2003.

Dear Paul,
Kiwi is correct.
I sorry if I have misled anyone. I do realize the opening query is not what I commented about. Some time the threads go on tangents and I am as guilty as I can be for jumping on that trend.
Karl

-- Karl (PArkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.

I *am* sorry--oops
Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.

Dear Paul,
I am not sure I know what you mean by "explaining that fabulous text"? I hope with this inquiry I am not creating more confusion. But then, I may be the only one who is confused! Thanks.
Karl

-- Karl (PArkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.

THE FLEET
Near the great Lake Of Michigan's shore Forms a great wave... Esprit de corps.
Their purpose... Raise our sons to men, Take pride in being... A Catholic again.
Responsible, loyal, A disciplined crew. Vigorous priests Blessed with the view
Of the rising tide All over the land, Swamping the Faith Sinking in sand.
While shepherds, effete, Sit down to dine On floating yachts With worldly wine.
But near the great Lake Of the yachts' shallow shore, Swells a great wave, A spiritual corps,
Where Truth does not change, Alpha first, sixth is zeta. The wave? Oh, St. Joseph's... Michigan's Armada!

-- Louisa (sweetlou@central.com), May 17, 2003.

The point of my response was not to bash the Catholic church. I do not trust any church nor am I a memeber of any church. The fact is when you make a claim that the the church is the pillar and ground of truth, you are actually saying that the "physical church" of today consisting of filthy unregenerated sinners, is holier than Thou! This statement means the church has all the answers and it is perfect in doctrine and the men who write these doctrines are perfect and should be obeyed! These men are filthy sinners. And I see how these so called perfect churches have dark secrets. Yes I know we are men and are sinful, so stop saying the church is the pillar and ground because what we see today proves that this statement is in error. The Bible is our authority. we should obey the Bible. If we discover teachings and cerimonies that are contrary to the scriptures, we should stop following them and obey what the scriptures teach!
The scriptures that I gave proves that God is not a respector of persons. He will judge the Churches of today. I mean all the churches and not just the Catholic churches.
God Bless. I am not here to bash this forum, I care for God's sheep and wouldn't want to lead anybody astray.....Peace.
P.s.
Proverbs 6: 6: "Go to the ant, you sluggard! Consider her ways and be wise, 7 Which, having no captain, Overseer or ruler, 8 Provides her supplies in the summer, And gathers her food in the harvest. 9 How long will you slumber, O sluggard? When will you rise from your sleep? "

-- Christian soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 17, 2003.

christian soldier... i see where youre coming from, but im not following you down that path. we're all sinners. so what youre saying is that we should all have our own interpretations of what the scriptures say? all different ideas of what Gods truth is eh? or perhaps you mean that we should follow your truth?
the idea is this: the church IS composed of sinners. everyone sins. but the church is still perfect in doctrine. why? because God is the foundation of our truth, the light we follow.
when you say that the church cannot provide the pillar of truth what you are saying is that you think God doesnt have the power to control his church, despite the actions of sinners. perhaps your view of God is that he is too weak to be the master of a bunch of humans who purport to follow him, but i see God as being able to control the outcomes of church decisions such that they match his will. you can keep your view of God, but mine is a bit more superior and more reverent if you ask me.
the current events dont prove anything about the church being a source of untruth. what it proves is that there are sinners, even in the church, and that disobeying the ultimate truth upheld by the church is wrong. read the catholic catechism, if you legitimately find anything in there that says that priests should molest boys then i'll admit to being wrong. until such time, dont presume to know the truth presented by the holy mother church.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 17, 2003.

Dear Christian Soldier,
God created man. You say he does not respect man. Christ is both God and man. He is one with the Father and the Spirit. Therefore God does not respect Himself.
This is how myopic christians see whatever they are looking at.
You are right now being written to by a man who loathes what he sees in the Body of Christ that he loves, so I am more like you than you really know. I have been soundly castigated by some in this forum, some,in fact, whose knowledge I respect very much. I have not just walked in your shoes. I lived in your shoes. Hell, I wore a few pair of them out.
I cannot stess to you enough that to divide the Body of Christ, as schism and heresy have done in there many forms, is to contibute to, to encourage and to sustain the divorce and remarriage which God hates most. God hates divorce on all levels but stop your tirade and look at what real dialogue occurs among couples who have divorced. Much more often then not they damn near kill their own children and each other in defense of their pride for God's sake. Does this reflect the Trinity? Does this reflect the Holy Family where Joseph accepted a pregnant betrothed Mary? Get real, man. Joseph had every reason to get out of that relationship. He had every reason to feel raped. He had every reason to hate and to dump this unfaithful, fornicating promised wife. And an Angel told him to stay with her? Like you or I would believe the same thing.
Would a God who sent His Son to die for this worthless bunch of losers, who is omniscient not know how lame we are and just make a stupid move like Jesus' death to save mankind and leave a band of chosen followers behind, just to see them splinter over differences eventaully? How arrogant can we be to want this splintered Church which we are presenting to God as his Body? Read the Church Fathers as I have suggested in another thread. You will see the roots of the Catholic Church today in their writings. I did.
There will always be fights in families. Did not Christ himself once say there would always be sinners? So I guess some read into that, combined with their perfect individual knowledge of Gods exact will, that they should form their own church?
God has attempted to tell this sad bunch, the Catholic Church, how unhappy he is with it. Just as he tells all Christians. But don't yell at catholicism from outside. Come home. There are alot of seats.
Divorce is both personal and corporate. God hates it all. He does not hate those who divorce but he sure hates what they do and the effects of what they do and he hates the actions of those who support and contribute to EVERY DIVORCE, even if they are centuries removed from that divorce. Time does not exist for God. All time is within God. He sees corruption of all ages in the present. He sees, now, the wrongs that Luther, Hus, Calvin, Zwingly... saw. He still does not want a splintered church. HE HATES DIVORCE. HE LOVES MAN. HE HATES THE WRONGS MAN DO.
It is important what you say. But it is also important what you do and how you do it. Same thing hold for all men.
God will judge all as you say. But he WANTS one body. Not parts which exist separately and act on their own and blame each other for their faults. That is certainly not very constructive. There was a reason for mentioning looking for the log in your eye rather than the splinter in your brother's. That is always the best way to prepare for a debate.
One body, Soldier. I have lived where you are. Home is here in the bruised, orn, bleeding bosom of the Catholic Church, one holy(not perfect)and apostolic.
If you think this is prostletizing, please remember, I do not fully practice my catholicism, for reasons apparent elsewhere on this forum, but she will be my only "spouse". I do my best but I cannot take it upon myself to "divorce" her for another lover, as Joseph stood by his "love" who he never "knew" but whose love for her was a sacrificial love and a reflection of the love of the SON OF MARY, the SON OF GOD,in response to what he accepted but never understood until he became one with the Father, who IS LOVE.
Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.

Hey everyone, Well I have a big day in the morning as most of you already know, from reading my first posting.....Yep, church mass for Sunday...As I have told you in my first post, The bishop will be coming to preside over mass....I am really nervous about what I "MUST" do in morning, but I must do it.....I have BIG Butterflies in my stomach....The closer we got to Sunday all this week, the more the butterflies fluttered....I tried to get my mind off of everything by taking my nephews to the ZOO today, well that did work, (for a while at least), but now I have my butterflies again....I have been told by some people that I should make sure that I am "SURE" of what happend to me, well I am sure of it, but now after reading some posts, I am having second thoughts about saying anything (For now at least)....Hopefully I can get a confession time in with Bishop if he isnt to busy and at that point I can tell him what happend....But like I said in previous postings, "I AM NOT GOING TO SEEK LEGAL ACTION AGAINST THIS PRIEST"....If the bishop thinks that I am lying or that I am making a mistake in what I "thought" the priest did to me, then I am just going to leave it at that.....I can always switch churches like some of you said, but I doubt very much that I can live with myself if I dont do what I am suppose to do....If I am such a coward that I can speak up, then I am just NEVER EVER EVER EVER again going to go to the Lord's Table during Communion.....I am planning on not reciving Holy Communion in the morning, I don't feel that I deserve it if or if not I get the "Balls" to go to the Bishop....I have asked A LOT of people if they think that I am living in sin since I have not told anyone of high clergy about all this, but all I can say is, I have not had a chance to go to clergy, nor have I been to daily mass this entire week!! I missed Wed,Thrus, and Sat mass, My conscience has been eating away at me this entire week, please pray for me so that I will make the right choice....Thankyou again for all your postings of encouragement...Peace be with you always....Jacob

-- jacob (flake777@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.

jacob,
youre most certainly not living in sin because of this. by all means take communion, it will give you the strength to do what you must. get the bishop to listen. just tell him that you need a moment to speak to him in private about a very serious matter.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 18, 2003.

Paul & Karl
I appreciate your input. I need to ask some questions? According to the Catholic faith, is every member of the Church including the Priests, automatically get into the kingdom of God?
In other words, because they are part of the Church, are they true regenerated children of God who received salvation? And do they make it to heaven?

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 18, 2003.

Dear Christian,
Absolutely not! No-one is saved "automatically". Salvation, for a Catholic or anyone else, means accepting Christ, and living as if you accepted Him, until the moment of your last breath. This 2,000 year old teaching of the Christian Church has been largely rejected by many Protestant sects, who claim that only the first step is necessary - accepting Christ. They claim that nothing a person does after that initial act of acceptance is essential. However, the Catholic Church still teaches the fullness of Christian truth, which includes the Biblical teachings that (1) genuine acceptance of Christ is a way of life, not just an isolated act (James 2:20; Matt 25:44- 46), and (2) those who endure to the end shall be saved - not simply those who made an act of acceptance at some point in their lives (Matt 10:22; 24:13).
The Church provides the fullness of what is necessary for spiritual regeneration and ultimate salvation. But simply being a member of the Church does not produce that regeneration "automatically". A person must make use of those means to spiritual growth and regeneration which the Church provide.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 18, 2003.

Hey there again everyone,
Well, today is the BIG day....I go infront of the Bishop to tell him what happend to me at my church last Tuesday.....I have butterflies in my stomach worse than ever.....Please pray for me this morning so that I have a little more strength in telling the higher clergy about my the abuse I suffered from that priest....Thanks again to everyone who backed me up this entire week....Jacob

-- Jacob (FLAKE777@HOTMAIL.COM), May 18, 2003.

Paul O.K., but isn't it true that as long as we remain unsaved, we are still in bondage to Satin? And that we are spiritually dead and the Spirit is not within us?

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 18, 2003.

soldier, this is paul with a little p again, although other paul did a great job answering your first question.
yes, one must have a recognition of Christ as the Lord. we just dont beleive that our growth in the faith stops there, it must continue on in the way we live our lives (contrary to popular beleifs catholics dont believe we are saved JUST by our works... we are saved by our faith which is fulfilled by our works)

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 18, 2003.

Dear Jacob,
Good luck and God bless you. I know you will stay in truth.
Karl
Dear Christian Soldier,
My understanding is that each day I work towards salvation(which is the realm of Christ alone who ramsomed(s) my soul with his precious blood(always in the present tense though since time exists in God).
Through my works, which witness to the existance of my faith(boy ain't that a struggle in itself each day to hold on to that free gift from God which I choose to claim daily, as a gift can be chosen or rejected) I stive, with hope, toward that goal of salvation having been(again in the present tense too) justified in and by Jesus (through his sacrifice for me and for all).
Soldier, if the theology is poor, forgive me. I am a work in progress. Not much of a work, if you look at the state of my life, but that is the cool part. Even I have hope to reach heaven. Not because of who I am or what I do but because HE wants me with HIM and gives me the right to choose(which sometimes I seriously have problems with the wisdom of but I guess that's why I am not God)to have faith that HE can pull it all off or to not choose and not be saved.
But I wish it were easier. Everyday I face despair and lack of hope and sometime barely hold on because it is the only thing that seems to make sense. My holding on also, in a small way, I hope, helps my kids to have some hope, I think, but I am not sure. It is just what I try to do. Sin is all around and so easy to join with. It always call to you. It is part of the choice. Each day. Each day I sin. Some worse than before. Daily it is work. The hardest part is suffering at the hands of those you love or should love but you can't tell anymore through the pain where suffering ends and love begins or if they are different at all. It gets really complicated when whether you do wrong or do right the pain stays and you see the suffering of your children and sometimes they are not even aware they are suffering and you see those that should love then causing them to suffer, for their own selfish desires which they justify to be what God wants and the Church tells them they are right. The despair overwhelms you and consumes you.
But is drives deeper when you beg the Church for help and it mocks you and sends dual meanings and its priests and clergy ignore the injustice they inflict daily.
Still, Soldier, God wants unity. You hold on, daily. I often wounder why anyone would want it. I have many reasons, mostly they are my children, one is their mother, some are my parents, family and friends but mostly, the Cross is the only hope. It is Hope. That Body on that Cross is the hope.
That is why it is CENTRAL TO CATHOLICISM. Unity with Christ in his timeless, eternal, everpresent sacrifice. HE is always there, in BODY AND BLOOD, during MASS, in person and in the SPIRIT especially through the Apostolic succession from Peter and the Apostles. And sin is ALWAYS there, in whatever takes us from HIS will, however trivial that distraction may seem if it takes us FROM his it takes us TOWARD SATAN the author of sin.
That is what I found in the Church fathers. The roots of all this stuff. That brought me intellectually back to Catholicism. The sense of it all keeps me there, even as a renegade. The other choices lead me down different paths, some closer than others to Christ but none flesh and blood tied to the CROSS. There are still other paths which lead only away. Each day I struggle with the choices of so many paths. I hope I stay on the one I chose when I sought the fathers. I hope.
Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 18, 2003.

Well,
Just to fill everyone in, I went to mass today and like promised to the congragation, Bishop Cordileone came to preside over our mass.....Well I thought I'd gotten there early enough for mass, but nope, even being 30 minutes early didnt help out, the church was packed!!! Even more than Easter Sunday.... I had to sit in the very back in the last section of 3 pews.....I couldnt hear a thing., I have no idea about what the gospel or the two readings were about....There were people there who were getting the confirmation sacrament and even with that, I couldnt even hear their names being called....So many people were talking around me............There was even a two guys behind me who kept talking about what they were suppose to do next, "Do we sit?" There were A LOT of people who were sitting during the prayer even though they were suppose to be kneeling....I say this because when I was kneeling, the person in front of me kept moving his back and bumping me while I was in prayer...During communion, I went up and recieved, from the very priest who violated me...He asked me if I was ok today and I said yes, (I lied to him)....He hugged me and I told him I would see him at either Monday, or Wednesday mass....I felt like dirt... As you guys know, I was violated last week, I tried to get a chance to get near Bishop Cordileone so that I could talk to him, but he was gone and it was too late,and during the last song when the clergy members went out, I had to stand there,(I was surrounded in my pew by other members of the church)....I couldnt go up to the bishop and say a word to him....by the time I got to the front of the church after dismissel, The bishop had already left out....He was outside taking pictures with some people...He was only there for a few minutes and took a few pictures and he finally left out... I didnt even have the chance to give him my note that I wrote up about how I was treated last Tuesday... When mass ended, and people had gone out, I went back into the church and went to the St.Anthony statue, Picture of Our Lady and Jesus and said prayer....I started to cry and I looked over at Jesus, and his mother and said how sorry I was for not saying anything. I then laid on the floor in the church and just cried my eyes out......I am sorry to all of you in our faith family...I messed up big time, I didnt do my duty as a fellow catholic....I could have done more to get the attention of the Bishop, but I didnt....I just stood there as he went out...Please forgive me....It looks as though I am going to have to mail him the letter that I wrote for him.....I will keep you guys posted throughout the week about how everything goes with me...Thanks again for all the suppor and God Bless.....Jacob

-- JACOB (FLAKE777@HOTMAIL.COM), May 18, 2003.

Dear Jacob:
Settle down; all is well. Try to remember Jesus is working, we follow as He leads us.
I advise you; DON'T write letters to the bishop.. A letter is usually intercepted by some goody-goody secretary, or a clerk in the offices who may even be a homosexual himself.
Make an appointment, Jacob. Set a time at the bishop's convenience; even if it's two months from now. Etiquette is always strict, dealing with the prelature. It's unfortunate, but we are servants at their feet sometimes; nothing wrong with that. Accept it; and be patient.
If you land an appointment, with this courteous condition: ''I will not take up too much of your excellency's valuable time, but I need a moment in private with you, Please.''
Rehearse what you intend to say to him and DROP IT ON HIM, when the moment comes. He will likely dismiss you with a frown. OK-- but he'll have the information. The ball will be in his court. Thank God for this grace; that you'll help the Church in the long run. But, don't waste any emotions expecting a lot of sympathy.
If I were you, Jacob, the one letter I would write would be to the offender. Nothing deep, nothing confrontational. Just inform him he is going to be denounced. Put that bee in his bonnet. He has it coming. Let him fear the wrath of God. It will be good for him.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2003.

right on the money eugene...
jacob, take it up a notch, definately call his office. i dont think he'll dismiss you as long as you try to remain calm and polite. just call and ask for the first appointment possible.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 19, 2003.

I see nothing wrong with mailing the letter, Jacob. Take it to the post office, and mail it "Registered, with Return Receipt Requested." It will cost a little more, but the person who accepts the mail must sign for the letter! That signature will be delivered back to you from the post office. Keep that receipt! You must keep very accurate records on this, as it will take quite a bit of time to have this issue addressed by the bishop, but it must be addressed.
Stay away from that priest!
Why do you suppose he asked you if you were okay? It's because he knows that HE HARMED YOU. He did it deliberately, with full intent. He is in a state of mortal sin. He has not apologized; just want's to make sure that you're okay with it all.
After you have mailed out your letter to the bishop, drop a line or two in the mail to the priest. Tell him that you are definitely NOT ok with what he did, that there will be no further personal contact, hugging, etc., between the two of you, and that you are praying dilligently for his soul, and taking the necessary action to get him the help he needs.
Just because he is an ordained priest does not mean that he is a holy man with holy intentions. He has committed a grave sin, and has a dangerous appetite for grave sin. His lust for you is sinful and must not be satisfied. The least contact keeps it going.
I've been praying many rosaries for you, little brother. This is not your sin, and it was no sin to stand during the bishop's procession out of Mass. You did the right thing.
Any allegations of this kind must be put in writing. It may take a follow up phone call or visit to the bishop, but then you can take someone with you! You will need to take notes, and keep records. It is very important to do so, as people will try to twist your words, and make promises that they won't keep. If you have a written record, you know what each said, and can hold them to it. (I'm not saying that the bishop will lie, but he'll pass this on to a committee or some advisor, and that person may not see it as being as important as you see it. They may put it on the "back burner," to deal with it later, while this priest is violating young men to this day!
Finally, don't stay away from the Eucharist! It is this heavenly food which gives us the courage and strength to do what is right! Jesus is with you and in you! How can you fail?!
Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), May 19, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Jacob.
If you would like to talk on the phone to some 100% trustworthy Catholic lay people in your diocese -- for advice or for help in getting to speak to the bishop -- please use this contact info:
Karl, James, Jason, or Rosalind at (619) 387-7200 Monday�Friday, 9 AM�5 PM, Pacific Time
[I know roughly where you are, because you mentioned your auxiliary bishop's name.]
May the Lord be with you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 19, 2003.

Karl Thanks for taking the time to explain your views. Some statements sort of clashed with the scriptures.
O.k. let's take Jacob's terrible situation. We have this Church leader who, on the outside looks and teaches in a holy fashion, but yet he is a wolf in sheep's clothes. And Satin is the Father of deceptions and he will do anything to deceive one of God's chosen. In this situation the problem came out in the open, but how many are there that we do not know about. Don't you think we are learning from or praising the devil. Or better yet how can God even allow something like this to happen especially if we are worshiping in "Thee Church", "the pillar and ground" Apparently God has allowed this to happen for a reason. The scriptures predicted this will happen. They tell us this is the begining of judgement and then it will transition into the last day which is judgement day.
This is where you may have been in error. Reading the Bible, we'll find many verses that teaches pre-destination. Maybe you can explain to me if I am wrong. You responded to me and I quote:
"Through my works, which witness to the existance of my faith(boy ain't that a struggle in itself each day to hold on to that free gift from God which I CHOOSE to claim daily, as a gift CAN be CHOSEN or rejected) I strive, with hope, toward that goal of salvation having been(again in the present tense too) justified in and by Jesus (through his sacrifice for me and for all). "
But the scriptures tells us different. In Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
In John 6:37 we read: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
In this verse Christ insists that those whom the Father has given Him will come to Him. There is no implication that the whole human race has been given to Him, but if they had, then the whole human race would come to Him. God has chosen out of the human race those whom He will save.
In John 6:28 the Jews asked Jesus, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus answered in the next verse:
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." In this declaration, the Lord Jesus teaches that our faith whereby we believe on Christ as Savior is a work. Galatians 2:16 indicates that we cannot be justified by works of the law; therefore, we know that we can be justified only by Christ's work and not our own.
I know none of us like the idea of not being able to become saved of our own will just the predestined ones. But God even responds like this:
Romans:9:11"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 9:14 What shall we say then * Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid *. 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for * * this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God * Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 * Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to * * make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if * * God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 * Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. "
Sorry for writing so much, but the last scriptures I quoted tells us flat out, who are we to say this is wrong!
Help me understand these scriptures. God Bless

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 19, 2003.

soldier, i repeat my previous post with emphasis on the part about saved by faith which is justified by works... i can address predestination later, if you wish, but id rather not go through that again.
soldier, this is paul with a little p again, although other paul did a great job answering your first question. yes, one must have a recognition of Christ as the Lord. we just dont beleive that our growth in the faith stops there, it must continue on in the way we live our lives (contrary to popular beleifs catholics dont believe we are saved JUST by our works... we are saved by our faith which is fulfilled by our works)
-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 18, 2003.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 20, 2003.

Christian Soldier:
How about: 2 Pet.3:9 "The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 20, 2003.

Ill leave the scripture experts to help poor "Christian" soldier but amongst the 30,000 odd protestant groups there are many many absurd and mindless man made doctrines. Few, if any however are more repulsive and more ill thought out than "christian" soldiers nightmare fairy tale that is "pre destination".
We can forgive him though his poor empty starving soul brings him to us in search of truth, love peace and salvation. Welcome Christian soldier!
The idea that every human being is pre destined to hell or heaven regardless of their actions or deeds is absurd. Gid gave us free will for a reason. Sin alone is the determinate for going to hell, and only God will decide that.The whole idea goes against both our reason as well as our moral sentiments.
It is crazy for a Christian to speak of the human will "co- operating" as Calvin says,with God's grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things.
Peace be with you

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 20, 2003.

Stephen
I am spiritually hungry! I am seeking for answers. This is what I find in the Bible. Now God also tells us our condition before He saves us, In Psalms:53:2:" God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God"
Romans:3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Dosen't it sound like God is telling us there are no exceptions? God doesn't tell us only some are good and they will seek me.
The Bible tells us in Ephesians 1:4 that He chose us in Christ from before the foundation of the world. In other words, God had already chosen whom He would save before man was created and therefore of course before man fell into sin. In Revelation 17:8 God speaks of those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. He speaks here of the wicked, those who are slaves of the Beast and of the kingdom of Satan. The fact that their names were not written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world implies that the names of the believers of Christ, who are not slaves of Satan, were written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, which accords with Ephesians 1:4, where we are told that "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." Therefore, the Bible shows us that God's election did take place before time and before God had begun His creation.
I researched that verse you gave me and if you examine it with the rest of the Bible we can uderstand it. It's similar to this verse, we read in John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." This verse refers to the elect, who were chosen by God before the foundation of the earth and whose names He wrote in the Lamb's Book of Life.
If God simply looked for and saved those who came to Him of their own free will, then He could not speak of them as being chosen. It would be incorrect because God would not have done the choosing; it would be man's choosing. Man would elect or choose to come to God, and God would simply recognize those who are saved. God could speak of them as being recipients of the grace of God only and not of electing those who are saved.
We read in John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." We are the elect of God if we have begun to believe in Christ as our Savior and Lord. God has opens the spiritual eyes and ears of every individual who becomes saved. God has qualified that individual so that he responds to the Gospel. God Bless!

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 20, 2003.

Christian Soldier:
I find it difficult to see the link between the verse you mention in John and the text I cited earlier. However, the interpretation you have of the texts you cite in your latest post is endorsed by Catholic teaching. We accept the idea that the saved are chosen by God. What we reject is the parallel idea that God deliberately creates some people to consign them to eternal torment. Here is a link that may explain the Catholic interpretation better, with appropriate scripture citations:
Catholic article on predestination

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 20, 2003.

Stephen
I read your link, I wish it were true but certain things just don't fit with some of the scriptures. I think you are not seeing the whole picture. We need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that man was created to worship and serve God. The Bible also teaches that men of their own volition have rebelled against God and will never wish to come to Him. Therefore, because it is God's desire to have a people for Himself, God sovereignly chooses the individuals whom He planned to save.
Once Adam and Eve disobeyed God, Mankind was sentenced to death, physical death and spiritual death. Spiritual death is eternal separation from God; that is, for his disobedience, man will eternally suffer God's wrath in hell.
Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
You see the whole human race became spiritually dead. We are all in bondage to Satin. We are slaves of Satin. Rightfully all of us should have been headed for eternal hell to pay for our sins. We read in Romans 3:11, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Nobody will turn to God the way God commands us to. We design our own salvation plan because we don't like God's salvation plan. Instead of sending everybody to hell because we all deserve it, including myself, God wants to be worshiped and glorified. So He decides to choose some filthy sinners (Bible don't tell us how he chose them) and cleans them up and gives them a new resurrected soul.
The Bible declares in John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." No man is able to come because every man is spiritually dead. Then when God begins to draw his elect and wakes them up, they are the ones who call out to him and repent and it is the Lord's faith and not of their own. Then these individuals get this ongoing intense desire to do God's will. These are they whom God says-- He wish none will perish. And or everyone who calls Christ and repents will be saved! As a matter of fact, Christ did die only for those who were elected of God, for only the elect will obey God's command to believe in Christ: This includes Old Testament believers and everyone who will come to believe right up to the end of time.
Why would God say this: in Romans:9:13 "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 9:14 What shall we say then * Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid * 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...... 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God * Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 * Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to * * make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if * * God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 * Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? "
God tells us, who are we to say this is wrong? You see God didn't predestinate people to go to hell. The whole human race was headed for hell. He decided to take some out of the garbage and cleaned them up. "9:21 * Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? "
Read the language very carefully. Boy I tell you, I don't like this at all but if this is what God tells me, I will faithfully and obediently accept it and beg for his mercy. Tell me what these verses in Romans teach us. If this is truth, then the next question is are you going to listen to God or a false doctrine. God Bless

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@yahoo.com), May 21, 2003.

Christian Soldier:
St. Augustine made the same argument as you starting from the same verses in Rom. 9. However, he then backed up and said that it had to be wrong. The reason is that it contradicts 1 Tim 2:3-4: ".. God our savior.. wants everyone to be saved". (also 2 Pet. 3:9)
The Catholic position is quite consistent with all your Rom. 9 verses and also with 1 Tim. 2:3-4.
To support your "predestination to Hell", you can cite Prov. 16:4 :
"Yahweh made everything for its own purpose, yes, even the wicked for the day of disaster."
In Rom. 9:22 St. Paul is quoting this verse.
This verse does not contradict the Catholic teaching that---God knows that the wicked will choose disaster, but lets them choose what they want anyway. In his broad plan of creation, he has a place for their disobedience. That does not in any way mean that he wants them to go to Hell.
Apart from directly contradicting scripture, the idea that God wants most people to go to Hell is inconsistent with the Christian concept of God as a loving Father. It implies that God is both evil and/or a loser. Loser because his creation (humanity) turned out bad and had to be dumped. Evil because he deliberately creates some people in order to torture them endlessly. The Bible clearly tells us that God is not a loser and not an evil spirit. Therefore we cannot accept the idea of "predestination to Hell".

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 22, 2003.

Stephen Thanks for your input. My goal is to find truth so please bare with me. I am not trying to win a contest. We read in 1 Tim 2:3- 4:"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
First of all we can't imply that "all men" is the entire human race. So what does God mean when He says, "will have all men to be saved" ? Remember God speakes in parables and scripture may not be straight forward. so let's check out other verses.
We must understand the Biblical use of this word and let the Bible be its own dictionary. For example, in Luke 2:1 God declares: "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." We could conclude that "all the world" included the North American Indians and the people in Africa, etc., but the context shows us that the "all the world" that was to be taxed was that part of the world that was subject to taxation, namely, the Roman Empire. In other words, the word "all" was conditioned by the context in which it was found. We read in Acts 2:17, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." We know from the Bible that God did not pour out the Holy Spirit on every individual in the world so that they became prophets or that they would prophesy; He poured out His Spirit on those who would believe. The "all" here is conditioned by the rest of the Bible, which declares that only those who are elect will believe, so the word "all" is much less than all-inclusive. We read in I Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die." From the rest of the Bible we know that this "all " is an all-inclusive "all" and includes every individual in the human race. Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." The next phrase in I Corinthians 15:22 tells us: "Even so in Christ shall all be made alive." If this "all" included every individual, the verse would teach universal atonement, and we know that is not possible. Hell will be heavily populated by people who have not been made alive. They are spiritually dead. Therefore, we must read the second phrase, "even so in Christ shall all [who are to be made alive] be made alive." God is teaching that all the individuals who are elected, according to His plan, are saved by Christ's work.
Other passages of the Bible show us that the people He plans to save are those whom He has predestinated. Likewise, when God uses the language, "Who gave himself a ransom for all" (I Timothy 2:6), "God, who is the Saviour of all men" (I Timothy 4:10), or "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4), we know that the "all" in these verses is conditioned by God's elective program. He is the Savior of only those whom He has predestinated, elected, and ransomed; and God has only these people in view when he uses the word "all." He gave His life a ransom for all of His elect. He wishes that all His elect will come to him.
You see you are twisting scripture and then you use your humanly thinking by saying how could God do this? You see God is also a righteous judge. He demands a penalty for our sins. Every criminal who has to go to jail will say he is innocent! Or he doesn't belong in jail for killing somebody or robbing someone's house. The whole human race is guilty! We all belong in hell. We became slaves of Satin. None of us want God in His terms! Who are we to say God is not righteous for doing this. The way God does show His love is by even saving some so He can be glorifyed. Of course God loved His creation. But you know what, God tested mankinds' faithfulness towards Him. And he warned us that if we disobeyed we had to pay! Please don't deceive the people with a grace plus works gospel! The moment we take just a little bit of credit for salvation, we are in rebellion towards God.
I am not trying to be difficult. I tremble before God Almighty. One last comment, you explained predestination by saying that God knew who would turn to him and who will turn away from Him. Then how do you explain these verses.
In psalms:53:2 "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. "
God answers this and says He looks but finds no one who seeks Him. We are all spiritually dead! God knows who will be saved because He chose some for himself. This verse contradicts your conclusion. Believe me I don't like the sound of predestination, but who am I to complain. If we truely feared God, we would be careful in what we teach. If I am wrong, please show me how these verses fit into your teaching. Thanks for your time ...God bless!

-- Christian Soldier (embasador333@Yahoo.com), May 22, 2003.

Christian Soldier:
Your discussion of different situations where the word "all" is used is interesting. I would disagree with many of your interpretations of these verses, but let's stick with 1 Tim 2:3-4. Look at the context. Paul is advising Timothy to pray for "everyone, for kings and others in authority ... " (1 Tim 2:1-2). By your logic, kings and others in authority, including for example Herod's heir and the then Roman emperor (Nero?) all must be part of the saved!
Psalm 53 (or Psalm 14 which is basically the same) follows a pattern common to many psalms which is to have a long lamentation suddenly followed by a punchline which is a triumphant praise of God. Read the whole psalm. The punchline is always the real point of the psalm. The Christian interpretation might be something like this : "_Although_ God's [old] covenant did not save anybody, since all disobey it, etc., in his grace and power he plans to save his people anyway [with an everlasting new covenant]. Hallelujah!".
God bless.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 23, 2003.

Just a note that Psalm 53 in my previous post is Psalm 52 Vulgate or Douay.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 23, 2003.

Stephen I enjoy exploring the Bible. I definitely don't know everything. This is why I like to share what I discover in the Bible. It is like treasure hunting. I give you certain scriptures to make you think. My point is we have to be careful not to isolate one or two verses and come up with conclusions. We have to look at the whole Bible and see how God uses certain words or phrases and we need to compare them all and try to harmonize them.
Now to attempt to answer your question with 1Tim:2:1-2, In these verses, God uses 4 of the seven New Testament terms for prayer. #4 if it has any spiritual implications, it usually means "world wide" or "universilitity". For example , the four corners of the earth- North, South, West, East. Or the Four winds, etc. Getting back to the verses, Each of these aspects of prayer should be included in the prayer of the true believers. Just by looking at someone, we can't determine who God's elects are. But God wants us to pray and interceed for everybody in the world, "for all men". Now that I looked over these verses, you are correct. In this particular phrase, "for all men", the first object of prayer, refers to everybody, unbelievers and believers. Such as kings and all who are in authority. The idea of praying for kings has a twofold emphasis. First, it is a specific way to pray for all men, because the actions of a king affect society as a whole, second, it reminds believers that God is the ultimate Sovereign. He is in control, and our prayers affect decisions at the highest level. Like praying for our president to do the right thing when it comes to protecting our country.
In 2:4:"who desires all men to be saved" does not mean that God has willed that the whole world should come to salvation because the Bible clearly tells us hell will be heavily populated. Instead, "all men", in this passage God guarantees that every single person who He predestinated will be saved. For example: John 6:37-39 we read: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." In these verses, God teaches us that, first, the Father has given certain people to the Lord Jesus; and second, those people shall come to Him. Nothing can frustrate God's plan; His will shall be done. There is no suggestion that those who were given to Christ can avoid being saved.
As a matter of fact the way these verses are written, is similar to what we read in I Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die." From the rest of the Bible we know that this "all " is an all- inclusive "all" and includes every individual in the human race. The next phrase in I Corinthians 15:22 tells us: "Even so in Christ shall all be made alive." If this "all" included every individual, the verse would teach universal atonement, and we know that is not possible.
If you keep examining all the scriptures, you will see that pre- election is being taught in the scriptures and they will harmonize. I have read responses in this forum indicating that if we are not part of the Catholic church we will not receive salvation. So how come the man on the cross next to Jesus received salvation right before his death? Every elect has his or her own time table in when God will save them. That criminal on the cross was not part of a church, nor received any of the sacraments. He was an elect and God gave him a new heart, that's why he was going to heaven.
I am not trying to persuade you. God has to open your eyes. Just keep researching before you stand firm. Unless you can show me something I missed. If I am wrong I would definitely want to know.
The psalm scriptures you gave just re - enforces what I said about the human race that they are spiritually dead and no body seeks God. So if Jesus stands at the door knocking, how will a dead person hear and open the door. You see! It is when God draws an elected filthy sinner, then he will hear the door knocking because God has given him a new resurrected soul. This is when a person repents and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ. First God saves them and then they repent. This is an incredible miracle that God does and we give Him all the glory for doing all the work. If you are receiving all the sacraments and going to church faithfully, does not guarantee anything. Because now we say, as long as I keep doing this I will make it to heaven. This is working your way to heaven and the Bible teaches the opposite.
The scriptures are not easy to understand because God purposely wrote that way. it is the Holy Spirit that guides you to the understanding of the scriptures. God speaks in parables, If He gives us eyes to see and ears to hear, then we will say ahhhh, I couldn't of seeked God if it wasn't for Him. I was enjoying my sins too much to do that. Could this be why I am so hungry for the Word of God?
God bless!

-- Christian Soldier (emasador333@yahoo.com), May 23, 2003.

anyone concerned that Jacob the originator of the thread hasn't been back since 5/19?
maybe because christian soldier and those debating him have taken over?
maybe because instead of emailing him privately, John told the whole world approximately where Jacob lives? what a way to scare him off.
i think we ought to pray for him.

-- someone (anon@dontknow.com), May 23, 2003.

someone:
I think I saw a recent posting by him on another thread. But good point anyway. Christian Soldier, why don't you start a new thread?

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 23, 2003.

Christian Soldier:
As suggested before, perhaps you may want to start a new thread to continue this discussion. But to briefly respond to your previous points:
Your explanation of "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 forces an interpretation on the verse that is divorced from its context, simply in order to make it fit the assumption that double predestination (double = to heaven and hell) is true. This may be enough to satisfy a convinced Calvinist, but certainly not me. In fact it is much more reasonable to accept 1 Tim 2:4 as literally true and read Rom 9:22 with that assumption.
1 Tim 2:4 "he wants everyone to be saved and reach full knowledge of the truth".
Rom 9:22 "But suppose that God ... has with great patience gone on putting up with those who are the instruments of his retribution and designed to be destroyed ..."
Notice that the verse from Timothy is a bald assertion of fact. We are told that this is what God wants, for sure! Rom 9:22 on the other hand is not a statement of fact. It is a speculation. It does not say "this is God's will", it says "SUPPOSE this is God's will".
The Catholic position is also strongly backed up by the authority of Our Lord himself. Read the parable of the sower (Mark 4:1-20). Only some of the seed which the divine sower cast ended up bearing fruit. But the sower cast the seed anyway, on stony ground, or in thorns, or on the edge of the path, even though being divine, he knew that seed would be lost. Why? Because he wanted all to be saved. (2 Pet 3:9)

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 24, 2003.

Well everyone, Someone said to me in one of these postings to go to another church and tell a priest there about what happend to me the other week...Well today I go to confession and I will be going to another church in my area to do the confession....In the confessional I will tell the Priest at that church what the priest at my church did to me...I am going to tell him this in confession because at least in there I will be able to get answers to what I should do next...Hopefully I can get in touch with the Bishop since our meeting last week was put to a stop...Wish me luck....God Bless

-- Jacob D. (Flake777@hotmail.com), May 24, 2003.

Sorry everybody for taking over Jacob's post, Jacob may the Lord give you wisdom!!! Peace...

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), May 25, 2003.

I was just wondering if anyone knows what happened to Jacob. Did everything get taken care of? Is he all right now. Maybe some Catholic counseling would benefit him. God bless him.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), March 18, 2004.

Sonya, there are four other subsequent threads concerning this one. They all have the characters "22 year old" in their title. You can find them in the "uncategorized" threads section which is found at the bottom of the main forum page entitled "Catholic". You can go there by clicking on the link at the top of this page entitled "Catholic".

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), March 18, 2004.

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