Is there still a disagreement between the Jesuits and the Vatican?

Why?

God Bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), May 08, 2003

Answers

Jmj
Hi, John.

The Society of Jesus is on good terms with the pope, officially speaking and at the highest level.

However, from my personal observations, I'd conclude that a high percentage of Jesuits are now dissenters from various points of Catholic doctrine -- some even having gotten involved in Marxism (e.g., in Latin America). Many of the Jesuit priests around the world dislike the pope and his curia, thinking them too authoritarian. It's pretty sad, since they were founded to be of special service to the pope. The Society has shrunk greatly in numbers -- not surprising, since so many members were unfaithful to God.

I went to a Jesuit university that has now gone to the dogs. Dissent in the faculty is rampant. Contraception is openly recommended in the student newspaper. Condoms are recommended against AIDS in the Student Union. The dorms are "co-ed." They don't get a penny from me. This kind of thing is true in the vast majority of Jesuit universities in the U.S., worst of all at Georgetown in Washington, D.C.. I've heard some good things about Gonzaga University and University of Scranton.

But there are some notably fantastic Jesuits in the U.S., doing their best to turn things around. Some of these, in recent decades, have been Fr. Mitchell Pacwa, Fr. Kenneth Baker, Fr. John Hardon [R.I.P.], Fr. Virgil Blum, Fr. Robert Spitzer, and Fr. Joseph Fessio.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 08, 2003.

It is very unfortunate indeed. My uncle and his wife, who were devout catholics became protestants because when my uncle was in a serious condition, fearing that he might die, he asked one of the priests to pray for him and the priest asked for money. They have completely changed and blame the catholic church for everything. Their little child is raised as a protestant as well. The poor priest does not know what big trouble he is in. It is all unfortunate. It is good that there are people, including priests and other good people who work hard to keep the church steady, and smile at all the worldly nonsense and who have the insight to see the world as one, instead of different divided countries and races.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), May 09, 2003.

Some Jesuits are still strong supporters of the Vatican such as the theologian Cardinal Dulles, and the Cardinal archibishop of Buenos Aries, but the Jesuits have lost the positions of power and influence they once held in the Vatican and church in general. They still are the largest religous order, they still run the most universities, so they still have some influence on the local level in many areas, but Opus Dei and Legion of Christ are starting to take up the roles that the Jesuits once had.

-- John B (rftech10@yahoo.com), May 09, 2003.

1. Hello, Abraham. Welcome back!

2. I agree with you, John B.

3. I think that I have to withdraw any support for University of Scranton. A few minutes ago, I read that their commencement speech will be given by a pro-abort Democrat commentator, Chris Matthews. The bishop of Scranton (Timlin) does not approve, but is not exerting the full weight of his powers.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.

Speaking of Jesuits is always a tough one. I was educated at Georgetown University, my primary choice because it was a Jesuit university of good reputation. Of course, I still got a great education, but the University itself was not Catholic by any means. I was continually disappointed with university officials as they flouted Church doctrine--particularly over the issue of abortion. While I was there, the administration even gave official recognition (and student funds) to an anti-abort group. The situation has gotten even worse now that Georgetown has appointed a non-clergy as its president. Let's face it, Georgetown is no more a Catholic University, and it hasn't been since it was reincorporated, essentially removing the Jesuits as the controlling body of the university.

However, with that said, I came in contact, and became friends with some truly amazing Jesuits. One of these, despite a previous posting, was Fr. Robert Spitzer. It was this man that began my reconciliation with the Church, and taught me a strict adherence to Church doctrine. The reason Gonzaga remains an excellent Catholic University is because Fr. Spitzer is now at its helm.

-- Shaun Haley (SPH_91199@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.

Hi, Shaun.
You wrote [with my emphasis added]: "One of these [truly amazing Jesuits], despite a previous posting, was Fr. Robert Spitzer."

"Despite"?
Please note that I was commending, not criticizing Fr. Spitzer, earlier. (Scroll up.)
Thanks. JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.

I do have to apologize, I realized that you were commending Fr. Spitzer after I had written my response. I will certainly not try to jump the gun before re-reading points. My sincerest apologies. By the way, two other great Jesuits at Georgetown, Fr. Jim Schall, and Fr. Alvero Riberio.

-- Shaun Haley (SPH_91199@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.

Thanks John,

I did not know Frs. Pacwa and Baker are Jesuits.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.

I heard from a deminaria in London that Jesuits have to take a fourth vow of obedience to the Pope, since they have becom so disobedient.

I pray for them that they will reconcile themselves to the church.

-- Andrew Swampillai (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.

I agree with you, Shaun, about Fr. Schall at Georgetown. (Imagine the "white martyrdom" that he must be undergoing.)

Andrew, I think that your friend in London did not get the story straight. The Jesuits do not "have to take a fourth vow of obedience to the Pope, since they have become so disobedient." Rather, they have always, since the time of their founder (St. Ignatius Loyola) taken a fourth vow -- but for a different reason. If you go to any of the several Jesuit Internet sites, you will find (accurate) statements like this one:

"The Pope [in the 1500s] entrusted various missions to [the] care [of Ignatius and companions], and soon they were traveling all over Europe, for the defense and propagation of the Faith. Eventually, they decided that it was for God's greater glory that they unite themselves into a formally constituted organization by the vow of religious obedience to a superior. They drew up a document outlining the characteristics of the religious order they had in mind. The Compaņia de Jesus (Companions of Jesus [or Society of Jesus -- S.J.]) would be primarily apostolic, not hidden away in some monastery, but out in the world. Besides the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, they would make a separate fourth vow to go anywhere the Pope would send them."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 11, 2003.

> " will be given by a pro-abort Democrat commentator, Chris Matthews"

John, the same guy who is the host of Hardball? I really enjoyed that show, but quite a few months back they moved to MSNBC from CNBC, and I don't get that station, so I can't see the show anymore. I always thought his views, questions, and comments were excellent. If that is the same person, who I think has said is a Catholic, is also pro-abortion? I have never heard him say anything in support of abortion. Quite sad if true, and I guess I'm not missing much for not being able to see that show anymore.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), May 11, 2003.

hello, as a jesuit, raised by jesuits, i can tell you that it is certainly not MANY jesuits who have fallen away from church doctrine, the vatican, or the curia. in fact, most of us are quite conservative in our beliefs. it is unfortunate that some of the more visible jesuits have only been visible because of the waves they were creating, but i hope you all understand that they are a slim minority of the jesuits.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 11, 2003.

I wasn't going to post anymore, but I must do this.

Paul, you are a Jesuit?

Allow me to express my highest regards and respect for the Jesuits.

I have always admired your purpose and your order.

Last time I mentioned the Jesuits, I got body slammed pretty good. But, I don't care.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 11, 2003.

yes rod,

i was raised in a jesuit family, and it pains us whenever some liberal makes a scene of themselves and then tries to pass it off as jesuit ideals. blegh.

i hope you will continue to post though, i have enjoyed reading your works. although we do not always agree here, you have my utmost respect.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 11, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Gordon and "little paul."

Gordon, this whole, short article goes into Matthews's gutless "personally opposed but" position. However, it says that he was invited to address Holy Cross. I just determined that was invited to address BOTH Holy Cross and Scranton!

Excuse me, "little paul," but can you explain what you mean when you say, "i was raised in a jesuit family"?
I think what Rod was asking (and I'll join him in asking) is whether or not you are an actual member of the Society of Jesus -- i.e., that you are a priest or brother or scholastic, entitled to use "S.J." after your name?
Or is it rather that you are a layman who was educated by Jesuits and/or who had/has Jesuits staffing your parish?
Thanks.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 11, 2003.

Jmj

I wanted to add the following to a thread that I started at some point in the last two years, but I can't find it. It was a thread intended to warn forum regulars and visitors that only a limited number (10?) of the more than 200 "Catholic" colleges and universities in the U.S. are really, truly Catholic. If anyone can find that thread, I will re-post the following there ...

From the great "Cardinal Newman Society," here is a list of institutions and the people who will be giving commencement addresses in the Spring of 2003. A good speaker does not necessarily guarantee that the school is fully trustworthy, but a bad speaker does guarantee that the scholl probably has other problems (very likely major ones, such as the teaching of theological dissent).

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 11, 2003.

John, sorry for the confusion, i am a layperson

but as with the legionaires, i wasnt aware that one had to be a member of the clergy to be a member of the jesuits...

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 12, 2003.

http://www.wf-f.org/AMDG-not.html

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 12, 2003.

stephan,

being a jesuit layperson, i take extreme offense at the document you provided.

have there been bad priests in the jesuits? yes, certainly, but there have been bad priests throughout the history of the church in all orders. that is the part of the devil attacking the church. that is no reason to condemn the jesuit order in the aggressive comentary that you offer.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 12, 2003.