This morning around 6:10 . It was the third of 3 dreams I had. One was about my mother. The other about President Bush.This one I don't remember quite clearly.

I saw the Pope getting in his private airplane waving goodbye. He was dressed in white like always. I heard a voice saying : The Pope is only making 2 more trips....( plus something else I don't want to say publicly).

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 22, 2003

Answers

Jmj

Elpidio, in my opinion, it is long past time for you to leave the forum.
That is one sick message, I must say.

I think that you must have been deprived of attention as a child, and you still haven't gotten over it. Even though you are not a Catholic (having fallen away), you think that you have to keep coming here and trying to attract people's attention to you with your sensationalistic stories -- which are either fraudulent, hallucinations, or given to you by the nether world. Now you are predicting the impending death of the pope after "two more trips." You simply make me sick.

John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 22, 2003.

Actually John G, I had dreams about the Pope in the past: 1991, 2000,2001,2002 (twice), and now in 2003. The Pope was one of the person in the Church I most admired since 1979 after Mother Theresa of calcuta.

I am not the only one, John. Do you think the Pope that wrote the prayer to the archangel Michael you just said in a previous post was sick for having a revelation about the future of his Church? Do you think sister Lucia was sick for having these visions in Fatima in 1917? Do you think saint Francis of Assisssi and Anthony of Padua were sick for having revelations about Jesus?

Wake up John G. ! The Bible is revelation! Not someone's philosophical treatise!

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 22, 2003.

John,

How can you begin your posts so piously with "JMJ" and be so uncharitable towards another? If you believe that Elpidio is truly "sick," perhaps pray for him and offer words of consolation or healing as Christ did, rather than being so insulting. Sorry, but I cannot see Christ in your attitude...and I've been reading your posts.

-- Joseph (josephwill@aol.com), April 22, 2003.

Oh well-- To get more constructively going, I answer the question.

No, Elpidio, I never dream of Popes. If I did, it would be of no rational importance. If you do, it is a matter for you to ponder. But voices in dreams usually mean you're snoring, or your belly is making noises. Don't eat too late or sleep on a full stomach.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 22, 2003.

But voices in dreams usually mean you're snoring, or your belly is making noises. Don't eat too late or sleep on a full stomach.

[In my best Rod Steiger voice]:

"I am not some pink seat seminarian who doesn't know the difference between the supernatural and a bad clam!"

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 22, 2003.

I don't know if this sequel will have and ending soon or a continuation , Jake.

Like Eugene said, these are things I need to ponder...

As for you, do you think the next sequel would be better?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 22, 2003.

Thanks Joseph.

That needed to be said and needs to be said over and over again.

Who knows really who posts on these boards. You would think as a Christian (Catholic or non) that the ideas of Christianity and being charitable is universal but it is not.

It is sad.

-- Melissa (b4this@concentric.net), April 22, 2003.

Thanks Melissa. I know my beliefs as a catholic were different. yet, I have never insulted anyone verbally.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 22, 2003.

Hombre, Chiquitin;
Me pareces tan amable y buenazo; Que caray! Sin embargo, me late que estas completamente loco! - -------------;)

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 22, 2003.

Oh my Gene! Just when I thought senility had caught up with you, youre back frightenly even sharpen and keener than before. Theres life in the old war dog yet folks...look out no one is safe!

The forum has ben ticking along very well, Deacon Paul is the new moderator although the trads have been running around uncontroled with just about everyone giving up on them/ignoring them. I see youve taken to rounding them up, and Jake is less than happy with the leash being applied!

Ive been getting a bit carried away winding up the republican guard as I like to think of them on the war side and Johns being his usual twatish self but beyond that everything is hunky dory!

Ps I went to the Marist Brothers seminary last week for dinner, which was hugely enjoyable and joined three other young men who are all good sorts and in their second year.

I havent asked to join but Im trying to fit in a few lectures at the theological college somehow this year around work while I work my life out.

ANyway great to see you back.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.

Hi, Golem.
I'm ashamed of ye Kiwis, burning my good President in effigy. May their Mum's bloomers catch fire. Lol--

I was nae senile I was feeling the affront the last Moderator choosing & picking whom to delete, with no right.

It was our Good John G. advised me we now benefit here by the new porter. He is a deacon; and we sorely needed an impartial man. God bless him. Bless you too, Kiwi. Stay out of trouble, Kid. The lure of the bottle has no equal, and you are too young to play Dylan Thomas on your back. Pray; ask Our Lord for grace, and pray also for your friends, here and in Nee Zooland. Ciao ////

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 23, 2003.

Jmj

Ah, well. Another day, another sad mess!

Josephwill, yours is the latest example of a certain kind of mistake that newcomers to the forum make. You assume that when one person (in this case, me) is highly critical of another (in this case, Elpidio) that it is an example of "uncharitableness." You are wrong, for two reasons:

(1) You read my message without due care. You accused me of having called Elpidio himself "sick" ["If you believe that Elpidio is truly 'sick,' perhaps pray for him ..."], but I never did that. Here is how I actually used the word "sick": "That is one sick message ... You simply make me sick." In other words, I think that that Elpidio did something bad, not that he is "sick." (2) Being new, you have no idea about Elpidio's history here at the forum. He has said and done many improper things, in my opinion, so it was an act of charity, not "uncharitableness," when I corrected him. The Bible requires this of us.

As you can see, Josephwill, you were mistaken. You have come upon the forum at a time when there are an unusual number of people doing bad things and saying wrong things (some insulting to the Church, some just factually wrong or stupid). You have seen me being forced to combat all these improprieties, and you are beginning to misjudge me. Please wait until you have had time to read a lot more of what I have written in the past, and what I will write in the future, before you judge me. Thank you. [By the way, Melissa was wrong to tell you: "Thanks Joseph. That needed to be said ...". Clearly, for her to have said that required her to have misread my message to Elpidio too.]

Elpidio, you wrote: "Thanks Melissa. I know my beliefs as a catholic were different. yet, I have never insulted anyone verbally."

First, you are not a Catholic, so you don't have "different" "beliefs as a Catholic." You don't believe that Jesus is divine. As soon as you ceased to believe that and said so publicly, you excommunicated yourself and even ceased to be a Christisn.

You may not have "insulted anyone verbally," but there are other ways in which you have done very bad things here at the forum -- e.g., masquerading as a Christian, repeatedly trying to convince people to believe the heresy that you believe, trying to beguile people with your false allegations of having received private revelations. In my opinion, all of these wrongdoings are worse than if you had "insulted anyone verbally."

Kiwi, you told Gene: "Johns being his usual twatish self ..."

Excuse me, but what is the meaning of the fifth word in that phrase?
Is it perhaps your second or third use of an obscene word at the forum?

God bless you all (including you, Gene).
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 24, 2003.

Sorry about that.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 24, 2003.

John has a good point, even a number of good points. Yes, Kiwi says some off-color things once in a while. I sincerely like him, but I also think he's loose sometimes because he's imbibing.

So, I warned him to lay off the booze; he's too young to die. Plus, he railed against Bush once to often. (That WILL tick me off.)

Elpidio is what we call ''raro'' in Spanish. He's a funny guy, and warm and fuzzy.

But his messages in past were subversive in the extreme. He has fallen away from the faith. He doesn't even apologise for that, yet continues to think he's ''just another Catholic'' who got sense.

Plenty of that, it's nonsense. He's never insulting even when he's insulted. But he's a biological threat as he now operates.

We have to take EVERYTHING Elpidio says with great caution. John just puts it very acidly. He isn't pulling any punches around here lately. We continue to pray for this good man.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 24, 2003.

Who knows really who posts on these boards. You would think as a Christian (Catholic or non) that the ideas of Christianity and being charitable is universal but it is not.

It is sad.

-- Melissa (b4this@concentric.net), April 24, 2003.

John G, you said referring to me, Elpidio Gonzalez: You may not have "insulted anyone verbally," but there are other ways in which you have done very bad things here at the forum -- e.g., masquerading as a Christian, repeatedly trying to convince people to believe the heresy that you believe, trying to beguile people with your false allegations of having received private revelations. In my opinion, all of these wrongdoings are worse than if you had "insulted anyone verbally."

I don't masquerade as a Christian. A Christian is someone who believes Jesus is the Messiah = the Christ. One who tries to folow The Way . Muslims believe in God but they don't believe Jesus is the Christ. Jews don't accept Jesus as the Christ either. Yet they believe in God.

No, Eugene, there is nothing revelutionary or radical about me believing that Jesus is not God. I am not that crazy. Just as the SPXX feels they were left behind, I feel left behind. My beliefs are Quartodeciman, not Arrian. Jesus called God father. Jesus said only the father knew the end times. Jesus said the father was greater. Also, if the disciples believed that Jesus was God himself, they wouldn't be accepted at the temple of Jerusalem and at the synagogues. Paul used to preach also in those Jewish synagogues. If he had taught Jesus was God he wouldn't have lasted a minute in there. This violates the commandment in Deuteronomy: Shema Israel, Yahweh eloheinu Yahweh ehad : Listen Israel, Yahweh our God is the only Yahweh (there is).

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 24, 2003.

Elpidio, Amigo--

Pardon my saying it; when did you refute an argument of John's? I think he refuted your words.

You can come here anytime, and I'll talk with you. It will be good for you; while my own faith will not be shaken. John would rather snip you out, as a potential danger. Not me. I want you to catch fire for the true faith once more. La Santa Fe.

If you keep coming back, the grace of God (Yave, I Am Who Am, Holy Trinity) may yet throw you off the horse, as Jesus threw Saul on the road to Damascus. With God nothing is impossible. He will show you His Divine Son through this place in the Internet. Jesus certainly loves you.

You are in danger for your immortal soul. The last thing I wish for you is getting barred from our company, having no contact with Christ on the outside. I sincerely believe you are not apt to harm the faith of our forum visitors. You wouldn't get much chance. Ciao.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 25, 2003.

I could see Eugene you are right now at the other end of the line. It has been a long day for me. Checking papers, counselor, parent conferences, internet search, game checker, forum ontruder. still, get home to preapare tests for tomorrow. See you soon, eugene.

May the grace of yahweh our God and his Son Jesus Christ be with you.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 25, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, Elipidio. In response to one of my charges against you, you wrote:
"I don't masquerade as a Christian. A Christian is someone who believes Jesus is the Messiah = the Christ."

Now I understand where you are coming from. The problem is that your belief is incorrect and deceptive.

In modern English, a "Christian" is not merely "someone who believes Jesus is the Messiah." No! A thousand times, No!
In this language, a "Christian" is a person who follows the religion that is based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

We must then look to authentic Christian doctrine -- i.e., the teachings of the Church that Jesus founded -- to know what it means to "follow the religion that is based on the life and teachings of Jesus." Here we learn that Jesus is not just man, but God. He is divine, a member of the Holy Trinity. [The fact that he is divine has been proved to you many times over at the forum, but you resist it as much as a pagan resist all belief in a deity. Apparently, you turn your back on God's graces.]

It follows logically, then, that you are not a "Christian."

May God, the Three-in-One, bless you.
John
PS: Thanks, Gene, for complimenting me and correcting Elpidio's statement that he has refuted me in the past. I understand well your desire for Elpidio to remain and learn. But consider how long he has been here both (1) rejecting all that he is taught and (2) leading some lurking young people astray. How can it be proper for him to be able to stay indefinitely? What time limit do you suggest?
PPS: Right now, I am very weary of reminding people that they need to leave the forum -- and also very weary of begging the new moderator to ban those worthy of that penalty. My cards have been laid on the table. It's time for action to be taken and for me to be silent -- at least until another group of rule-breakers come along!

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.

Oops!
I wrote, "... as much as a pagan resist all belief in a deity."
I meant to go back and revise that to read, "... as much as an atheist resists all belief in a deity."
[Pagans are not necessarily atheists.]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.

John,
I realise what you mean. I can foresee the day, though, Elpidio returns to his Church; he's a baptised Catholic. Of course it's frustrating to allow any misleading posts in here. That's why you or perhaps come back at them over & over. We let the truth shine on these errors. In many ways, this is beneficial for the lurker, it posts more than blanket statements of our faith when we accept a challenge. It's like the TRUE or FALSE type of test; the participants need both answers; then see the right one. It's impressed forever in the minds of some people, the way no other test can allow. Particularly when one is up to a challenge like Elpidio's. Because rather than being abusive, or vulgar or trite, -- Elpidio tries his best to be challenging and interesting. It's up to us to be responsive and just as interesting.

One reason why, in the first posts he sent here, I attempted his reductio ad absurdum; because it carried my reply in a provocative manner. I quickly found out he is unflappable. That's great!

It makes for provocative questions and answers. The biggest mistake we can make during an apologetics exchange is whip up a sense of --apathy! I just hope that isn't too often my mistake! But I think in this way, we give Satan himself all he can handle. Pax!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 25, 2003.

Gosh people!

It seems that we should all leave our evil ways and live our lives like the Saints. That should surely put our souls in Heaven. Or, were the Saints wrong?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.

They are just testing my Christianity, Rod(rigo). Jesus used to say that he had come seek and to call those that were lost. The day John G. gets it, then he can truly will understand the word Christian. Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (Whole Chapter: Luke 19 In context: Luke 19:9-11)(NIV).

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 25, 2003.

Elpidio- ¿Entonces sabes que yo igualmente soy maestro (de musica)?

I just can't figure out my keyboard for spanish characters and punctuations (I have to deal with at least 3 seperate computers).

BTW, I don't mean any disrespect by posting in spanish. I figure that most readers can figure out the spanish as well as latin or any language other than english. This is the 21st century and information is only as close as your fingertips and the internet.

rod

-- Rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.

Elpidio,

Wern't you the guy who said Jesus talks to you in dreams a few weeks ago?(If I rember correctly you said this to Moderator on a thread you started about deletions)

Do you eat a lot of "spicy foods"?

PS;I think if you are allowed to talk about this BULL HOCKY on a regular basis in this forum, than you other formites should be allowed to give there O.P. about your nonsense!

-- David (David@excite.com), April 25, 2003.

Is it ok for me to call David "Doubting Tom III", John? Or, is this priviledge reserved to John?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.

Elpidio- Do you eat Hunan cuisine (spicy food)?

Or, was David making some kind of reference to pico de gallo?

Many unexplained dreams occur. I now know to keep them to myself. It is best to share with those of you who are experienced and wise. I don't like being described as some "circus freak" and I don't know of anyone who will take me seriously, except for Elpidio and (yes) "Doubting John".

David-If this ever happens to you, you tell me.

r

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.

Kiwi,

"John being his usual "twatish" self.

Rember you called me a "twat" before in this forum in Sept? Don't act "stupid"! John, explained to you what a "twat" was and you said you didn't know after you were told it is a slang word "coined" by the? for a female body part.

Was this word used with the seminarians you were with?

-- David (Davbid@excite.com), April 25, 2003.

Rod,

Next thing we know he will be saying he has the Stigmatta, or thinks he does.

But hay bro, he is entiltled to give his dreams, but I'm entitled to give him my Catholic opinion.

But how real can he be? He left the only True Church, and now he's a "dreamer".

Eat another "spicey sub".

-- Dabid :-) (David@excite.com), April 25, 2003.

David-

Well, sure we have the rite....hee..hee...right to express our beliefs and doubts. I was mostly wondering about whose doubts are permitted or deserving of whimsical nicknames and whose are not.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.

Gentlemen:

I respectfully refer you to the Baltimore Catechism, that timeless treasure of Catholic teaching, which addresses the subject at hand as follows:

Q. 1155.What are dreams and why is it forbidden to believe in them? A. Dreams are the thoughts we have in sleep, when our will is unable to guide them. It is forbidden to believe in them, because they are often ridiculous, unreasonable, or wicked, and are not governed by either reason or faith.

Q. 1156. Are bad dreams sinful in themselves? A. Bad dreams are not sinful in themselves, because we cannot prevent them, but we may make them sinful:

(1) By taking pleasure in them when we awake, and

(2) By bad reading or immodest looks, thoughts, word or actions before going to sleep; for by any of these things we may make ourselves responsible for the bad dreams.

Q. 1157. Did not God frequently in the Old Law make use of dreams as a means of making known His will?

A. God did frequently in the Old Law make use of dreams as a means of making known His Will; but on such occasions He always gave proof that what He made known was not a mere dream, but rather a revelation or inspiration. He no longer makes use of such means, for He now makes known His will through the inspiration of His Church.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 26, 2003.

Ah!

Q. 1155 is the kicker. I'm supposed to ignore those dreams that give me visions of events that happen the next day? Uh....ok.

I don't believe in dreams. I don't believe in dreams. I don't...I don't....I don't......

This is gonna be tough!

rod .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 26, 2003.

This is gonna be tough!

You can do it.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 26, 2003.

Wait until God sends the dream, Christian. No other dream will be like this dream.

Otherwise, laugh over a dream of wealth & prosperity. Cry if a dream brings back a sad memory. Get up, wash your face and forget about it. Is it any wonder we never see Jesus Christ mention dreams; or ask us about dreams? In the gospels--?

We might have expected JESUS to read our dreams for us. But He stated clearly: ''Why do you sleep? Rise and pray, that you may not enter into temptation.'' (Luke 22:46) This was moments after Jesus had sweated drops of blood; moments before Judas came out of the darkness to kiss Him.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 26, 2003.

Yes, David, I am the one. You had called me a phony. Funny thing, David, I eat spicy food ( mostly very hot chiles, like chile de árbol, habanero, jalapeño..), but unlike what Eugene said, the dream that I had I had it when I ate the less. I had surgery recently. I can't have too much spice in my system. They cut me from rectum out. Now you know. I know know the Pope is going to Spain soon.

Jake, dreams are now called visions by the Church: Lourdes, Fatima, Prayer to Saint Michael (by Pope Leo),... Do you know how fast, that is, how long can a dream last? Saying there are no dreams by God is like saying as Protestants say only the Bible, Or Catholics say the Bible and tradition,or that Mohammed was the last prophet (as Muslims say it was he said in his farewell speech). We cannot control God, he controls us.

Rodrigo, no les hagas caso. No todos los sueños son de Dios. Si oyes una voz que te dice lo que va a pasar, tiene un 80% de pasar. Esto le La razón es Dios permite que las personas cambien, o acepta súplicas y oraciones de aquellos que le piden. Otros sueños vienen en forma de símbolo. Lo difícil es interpretar lo que cada cosa representa. Esto le pasó a san Pedro cuando Jesús le dijo Pedro come ( Hechos de los apóstoles, significaba que tenía que aceptar a los gentiles). En el caso de Faraón rey de Egipto José hijo de Jacob fue el único que le pudo interpretar el sueño que el tuvo sobre vacas flacas y gordas, espinas flacas y gordas,el cual representaba 7 años de sequía y hambre.

Otros sueños son peligrosos, especialmente aquellos donde uno se mete con otras personas, por ejemplo en la cama. Una compañera de trabajo tuvo un sueño de esos hace ya como 13 años. Me lo platicó. Quería que yo lo hiciera realidad. Ahora me entiendes.

Tengo 21 ños de trabajar en la escuela. Especialmente matemáticas. Tu sabes que en matemáticas 2+3 es 5. Yo solo cuento lo que veo en mi sueño, no le agrego demás.

Para español TRATA ESTO EN EL TECLADO: ALT 160 ES á,ALT 161 ES í, ALT 162 ES ó, ALT 163 ES ú, ALT 164 ES ñ, ALT 168 ES ¿, ALT 130 ES é.

EN ESTE MOMENTO VOY A UNA CARRERA. tENGO UN GRUPO DE LA ESCUELA QUE CORRE PARA EL MARATON DE LOS ANGELES: SRLA. TE VEO DESPUES.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 26, 2003.

Elpidio-

Yo se muy bien lo que me dices porque me han paso cosas real.

Ya me di cuenta que eres maestro de matematica por tus palabras.

I once had a bad dream that my living room was quickly flooding with water and I could not escape from its overwhelming feeling. In the morning, upon awakening, I heard the reports of six(?) people dying as the causway collapsed during the night after being hit by a barge. The drivers of their vehicles crashed to their deaths into the bay. Years ago I very abruptly awoke from my sleep for no apparent reason. The feeling I had was confusion and sadness. In the morning of the same night, I learned that my cousin had died during the night.

I know of a person, who I have complete faith in, who was visited by their father (two places at once) the night of the father's death. (vision)

These are only a few events in my life. So, I should just ignore them? My family just accepts them as common place. We don't capitalize on them or have group occult meetings over them. We take them as "grains of salt", but times like now, I sit back and wonder. They must be real events which warrant Church recommendtions against the

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 26, 2003.

Rod, I am back from the race. We ran at Northridge University. It was a beautiful dayy. I felt some pain. I haven't run since my surgery. It is about 11:27 am, here in Los Angeles.

In the thread, you notice I mention 3 persons: my mother, the Pope , and President Bush. I didn't mention my mother. Just like you, everytime I wake up in the middle of the noght, someone dies or something terrible happens to me or someone close to me.Last year in January I had a dream about my mother that she was close to dying. I told her the dream.I told her her life was in jeopardy before the end of May. In late April and in may my mother was so sick, lost aa lot of weight, had uncontrollable swetty days. She even called all of her brothers to say goodbye. I told her what was her decision: she said she wanted to know my son (by the way, she had a dream in january 2001 of a son I was going to have). She prayed to God to see my son. So far she is alive. I am afraid, once my son is born, she will die.

Right now, in 2003, my wife is pregnant. I am still not sure whether is going to be a boy or a girl. My brother had a dream around the time of the War with Iraq that I had a son. My wife dreamed a son with the name of Isaias in August 2002 and October 2002. She was told in a dream that a surprise awaited her on March 3, 2003. That day she found out she was pregnant.

Isaias is the same name as Jesus in Hebrew. Yesha'yahu as opposed to Yehoshua(short:yeshua) both meaning salvation of Yahu (Yahweh). I let you know later on if I had a boy or a girl.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 26, 2003.

Rod, in the case of the Pope, in 1998, he said he wanted to visit the Holy Land and other places where Abraham lived( Ur in Iraq. Saddam Hussain canceled the trip in 2000, Hebron (he did)), Moses was (Mount Sinai, Mount Nebo), where jesus and his apostles were: Jerusalem, the temple (whatever is left. He left a prayer there. I don't know its content in one of the cracks). Nazareth, Bethlehem,... then places visited by Paul: in Turkey, Greece, Malta,... Paul mentions a trip to Spain. I don't guarrantee Paul ever made that trip. Many people think he did. This includes the Pope. That is why he is going to Spain in May of this year. He was destined to die at the end of 1998. He came close at the end of the year. I had this dream in 1991. 3 months after the death of my first son. I wrote to him in 1997. I told him his trip to Cuba was going to be a success. So what do you make of this Rod?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 26, 2003.

Now Jake, Eugene, and John G, and David from Excite, haven't you have had dreams that came true? At least 20% of my students have. They are not even 18 yet. So in all probability you have.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 26, 2003.

Now Jake, I know you think God doesn't reveal himself now, in our days. But wouldn't you want to see him (or Jesus), or Mary (the mother of Jesus)....?

People like Theresa Huether, who is a charismatic I know she would agree with me. Charismatics have a tendency of seeing Jesus or Mary. They believe they are in direct contact with God when in ecstacy they speak in tongues. I used to attend their meetings. I couldn't do that, Jake. I left them. I couldn't speak in tongues.

By the way I do speak in some mother tongues: I Speak Spanish my native tongue and English, read French, Italian, Portuguese, Esperanto, Koine Greek,and a little bit of German,Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic, and Russian

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 26, 2003.

Elpidio-

Take it easy with the physical activities!

It sounds like the Cuba trip may be the start of something new for the Papacy?

I have a few books about the Pope. He served in the military. I wonder how many places he has visited in his younger days.

I'm sorry to hear of your loss of a child. I can't even begin to imagine such sadness.

rod . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 26, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, Elpidio. You are really getting more and more "far out" as time goes by. Sad to see!

You asked: "Now Jake, Eugene, and John G, and David from Excite, haven't you have had dreams that came true? At least 20% of my students have. They are not even 18 yet. So in all probability you have."

FACT: I am over the age of 50, and I have never had "dreams that came true." In fact, I have never had a dream about some supposed future event, true or false. In the unlikely event that you and your students really do have dreams about supposed future events, I'd say that their are two very ordinary explanations for them:
(1) Their really were no dreams, but you experience deja vu later. "Oh, I remember seeing this in a dream." No, you never actually saw it before.
(2) The dreams portray some logically guessed potential future event. Then when some tiny percentage of them "come true," you wrongly perceive them as mystical.

You just now stated -- as thought it had been revealed to you in a dream -- "I know know the Pope is going to Spain soon."
Wow! I am really impressed -- NOT!
This news about the pope's May trip to Spain and a subsequent trip to Croatia are posted on this Vatican page.

I'm afraid that I can't help but think that you are either fraudulent or foolish.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 27, 2003.

[I am embarrassed! Anyone can accidentally spell "there" as "their" once in a great while, but I just did it in consecutive sentences. Excuse me, please. I forgot to proofread. JFG]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 27, 2003.

John,

It could be the spicy foods this cat eats. He craves attention. Maybe we should call him the "Great Pretender"?

Oh thats right. .20 percent of his students predict the future also.

"Show me your friends and I will show you are Pretender".

Eat another spicy sub, or whatever you do.

-- David (David@excite.com), April 27, 2003.

High!

Their ease ownly won weigh two no eef he's dreems our reel:

weight two sea eef thay bee come reel.

rod . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 27, 2003.

Don't worry John G, we are only human.

David don't get to excited about The Pretender , it was a song from the early days of Rock-and-roll. I am more into disco, rap, cumbias, rancheras, ....

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 28, 2003.

Elpidio,
We must all pray; yourself as well, for a resolution of all doubt. Not for our vindication, nor a disillusion either. Just a sign from God; or that He might inspect your sleeping spirit all night every night. Pray He will give you a barometer revealing the good and evil things at work in your dreams.

I wouldn't imagine you are gullible to the point of total self- deception. Clearly you have a working intellect & sufficient education to evaluate something objectively.

Go to Yave-- with a disinterested heart, and implore the truth of Him.

Lord, am I a vessel for your mysterious workings in the world, as I'm led to believe? Or is another influence at work, taking control of my imagination in those dreams when no one else knows what I see and hear. No one else except You and me, Yave--

And pray for the light he alone shines on us. He knows us from the womb until this hour. He knows you better than you know yourself; so why not petition Him? Ask that He unseal your dreams Himself, without your opinion.

On the morning after, tell him your dream. Say-- Yave-- this is what I dreamt. Tell me, Lord; what is it I need to know from You? Not from others or from books or my own wisdom. YOU!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 29, 2003.

This is the 4th time I am trying to insert a reply, Eugene. This time I will break it into parts.

Part 1: When I was turning 17, that day I asked God for a wish: If you exist, let me know. If you and Jesus are the same, le me know, if Jesus is not God let me know. If I am in the true religion, let me know. If I am in the true faith, let me know. If what I was told is true, let me know. If what I was told is not true, let me know. If there is a Hell, let me know. If there is a heaven, let me know. If people continue to live after dying, let me know.(Házmelo saber in Spanish). I had to wait a long time. This was in 1979.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 29, 2003.

Part 2 for Eugene: In 1986 my dreams and trances began. I told one of my brothers after seeing Donnie Moore From the Angels allow a homerun to Dave Henderson from the Red Sox, he is is going to commit suicide within 3 years. He did. See < a href="http://www.diamondfans.com/profile-moored.html"> Donnie Moore's biography.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 29, 2003.

Part 2 for Eugene: In 1986 my dreams and trances began. I told one of my brothers after seeing Donnie Moore From the Angels allow a homerun to Dave Henderson from the Red Sox, he is is going to commit suicide within 3 years. He did. See < a href="http://www.diamondfans.com/profile-moored.html"> Donnie Moore's biography See his tragig moment.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 29, 2003.

Also, after the defeat of the angels, the Red Sox faced the Mets. I was told in a dream how Buckner from the Sox made an error which allowed the Mets to win. It was the Then I was told they would win the series.Here is < a href="http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/worldseries/1986.html"> The series

Since that time,there have been a number of times I heard voices telling what would happen . From game between Vasco Da gama and chivas de Guadalajara in 1987 (told Tita would tie game),game 2 won by Dodgers 1n 1988 after the heroic homerun by Kirk Gibson in game 1,the Panama invasion in 1989, The Pope's health in 1998(dream in 1991), O.J. Simpson guilty even though he was found not guilty (1995), results of Mexican elections in 1994 and 2000, Afganistan (2001), Pince (2202),Bush (2001, 2003),Bush's brother Jeband sister-in-Law(2002), The Pope again (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003), ... to name a few. I exclded many personal ones and those involving my friends and relatives.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 29, 2003.

I'm afraid to ask for such things from God. I'm not so sure that I could cope with His answers. I don't think that I would want to experience the same that Job did in the O.T. So, why rock the boat?

I've had bad things happen to me. I know that God has allowed me to pull through. I thank God for what He has done for me.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 29, 2003.

Part 4: I am not alone on this, Eugene. Have you heard about John (Don) Bosco?
< a href="http://www.webcom.com/enddays/jbosco01.html">biography


-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 29, 2003.

John (Don) Bosco not only predicted the deaths of his students but also had visions. One them deals with what the Pope did recently with Mary and the eucharist.

The difference between him and me: The Pope has not , and will not,accept me. I can live with that. You will not live long enough to see that day, Eugene. You are fortunate enough to hear my words now.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 29, 2003.

Here is more Don Bosco

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 29, 2003.

Rod, I didn't realize the scope and consequences of asking that from God. Do you remember or have you read hwhat happened to Moses: for one fault he wasn't allowed in hte promised land, Jeremiah was asked not to marry, Hoshea had to marry a prostitute, Samuel was told he had to find a new king because his sons were not good and he didn't discipline them, another was eaten by a lion, Elijah couldn't finish his ministry, others were persecuted or put in jail for telling the truth like Micaiah. This is in the old Testament. In the New, Jesus was crucified , peter was crucified, Peter stoned and beheaded, James beheaded, an so for...

A person who gets close to God pays a high price. It is until later on when he gets respect. So far Jews continue to deny Jesus. It has been almost 2000 years. He is still considered a blasphemer, a sorcerer, a heretic. Wghat can I expect?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 30, 2003.

Hi Elpidio.

It is difficult to put into words, but here goes:

God is the one in charge. I once had a good friend tell me to watch what I pray for. Tribulation seems to be a very good answer and lesson for us. We can see clearly after a terrible storm.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 30, 2003.

Rod, for Peter being stoned and beheaded I mean Paul. Peter was not beheaded.

Sometimes the storm could remain with us for a long time. Only in the beginning (early 80s I used to get depressed thinking about these things.) Every morning, on the road, at work, in the evening, at night, I ask my God Yahweh for help in the name of his Son Jesus Christ. Everyday is full of danger, temptations, and so on. God nevr promised me I would be immune to all of them. Even if I get sick, I still have to suffer, sometimes longer than other people. I am not immune to disease.

When I hear these miraculous people, I look at myself, and I say, I have to be a a great sinner. Then I look at the Pope, who has been shot, suffered greatly from alzheimer's, yet everyday works very hard, then I ask myself, is he a great sinner because he suffers, or truly a great saint, because he endures the pain? Society thinks that if you are holy is because youn are healthy. Jesus suffered and was killed. Paul suffered and was killed. Jeremiah suffered. Micaiah suffered. Peter suffered and was killed. So the holy ones also suffer.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 30, 2003.

Elpidio,
You might not know it, but here's the scoop. Pope JP II is not suffering from Alzheimer's. His mental capacity is a marvel to all who know him. He is slowed by Huntington's disease; the same as mohammad Ali, affliction. It makes talking difficult, bu mainly because of the drug treatment.

Add the operations he's been through. His colon and the gunshot, etc.,

We should be as active and responsive in our middle eighties.

I can't help noticing you repeatedly associate your own experience with that of our saints. They suffered for Christ; and all of them confessed that He was God the Eternal Son. That is why they placed their total faith in Him. He is God, and has made Himself our loving Savior.

It's the only problem with your present trajectory, Elpidio. No faith in Christ is valid if we deny He is God made Man. Might as well be a Hotentot.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 30, 2003.

Thanks, Eugene. It is not Alzheimer's, probably is me right now. Here is what I found on the Pope's condition

which may or may not be Hungtinton's.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 30, 2003.

This is what I found aboput his progress < a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-608774,00.html"> on the papaya

Do you think Eugene that more people will now eat papayas?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 30, 2003.

Let's buy papaya shares! Ha!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 30, 2003.

Elpidio-

Teaching is no picnic! I think it contributed to my bad 80's. Perhaps the same has happened to your 80's. I prayed, but without faith. Then, God got the ball rolling and changed my life. It took some drastic measures that turn everything upside down. At the time, it was all BAD. Now, I'm thankful for what happened. My life has true meaning as I live for my family. I don't feel like an insect as I did back then. My calling from God is to bring my family to Him; therefore, I'm learning to be a role-model. It's just these dreams that I just can't ignore. Scriptures flow through my mind as I sleep or dream. Answers to theological problems gradually resolve themselves. (And my diet is BLAND!)

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 30, 2003.

What's the matter with me???!!

Not Huntington!
PARKINSON'S disease; what Our Holy Father's illness is. I groped and thought of Huntington Park; a brain cramp! Oh, Boy! Thanks for not embarrassing me, friends. Too much on my mind.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 01, 2003.

I taught at Compton Unified, toughest district in California 13 years. LA unified 7. It is really tough. I am worn down.

My faith keeps me going.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 01, 2003.

That's wonderful, Elpidio. Have you met the famous teacher, you know; his name slips me. Stand And Deliver. Something? Olmos played his part in a movie.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 02, 2003.

Jaime Cervantes?

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2003.

Jaime Escalante.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2003.

There you are. He's a piece of work, Hm? I think he's a Colombiano. A teaching whiz. If I don't miss my guess, Elpidio is also a marvelous teacher in class. I want for him to return here frequently. He has need of the real Catholic points of view, and a new look at the doctrines. So far Elpidio for all his charm has not learned the truth. Maybe not through his own fault, but he is miles & miles from the truth; and he'll learn some of it here. He might teach a very limited amt of his truth too; maybe.

I think he has the type of intelligence that will not reject truth, once it's apparent to him. Pray for grace to be given him. All of us on this forum. Elpidio is worth every prayer, My Friends--

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 02, 2003.

Eugene, Jaime escalante es Boliviano. He taught at Garfield High In Los Angeles Unified school District. I met him at a conference at Dominguez Hills University. 2 of his former students work with me now. They are close friends.

Escalante wasn't as good in the beginning. Later, when his students had to stand and deliver, he became famous. He was my inspiration to be a math teacher.

Am I lost, Eugene? Well, then why God chose me for this type of ministry? How many people do you know talked to God? to Jesus? I knpw you believe in other apparitions, saints, and so on. What makes you think I come from the Devil? Even Jesus was accused of the same. The Jews still don't believe he was the Messiah. That's almost 2000 years!

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 02, 2003.

No, Elpidio !

I haven't said you're lost. I said you are coming here to be recovered, before you're lost. I have gone on record. If it takes until your dying day, by the grace of God you will return to the catholic Church.

Many of our Latin people return on their deathbeds. You must know this. For those who think this is shallow, or hypocrisy, I say Absolutely not! There's no force for conversion more lightning fast, more swift and powerful, than the sound of El Huesudo coming for you.

I sometimes think that's precisely why Our Almighty Father permits death in our universe. Have you seen the passage that reads, ''How sweet to the Lord is the death of His saints''--? I don't think it's morbid. The other nice reminder is, ''No atheists in foxholes.''

You will be enlightened to God's Will, whether in your last dream or within this forum, or a combination of these. All we are hoping is, as you are gradually coming to understand the true teachings of the Catholic faith-- Which means Jesus Christ's very teachings. I am in hopes your final realization will be, ''NOw I see.''

Everything you've seen to this point was just preparation for the truth; not any real truth. Why think a revelation of the box scores is relevant here? I remind you of these words: Perhaps the same has happened etc., ''I prayed, but without faith. Then, God got the ball rolling.'' Isn't it a little apropos?

He is now giving you that ball, Elpidio. This forum is the ball rolling. Dream about our words awhile, and keep on having faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 02, 2003.

Off

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 02, 2003.

Elpidio,

"How many people do you know talked to God? To Jesus?"

Jesus is God, Elpidio! I don't think anyone believes your dreams. Will you give those dreams a break? You sound like a silly boy wanting attention all the time.

-- - (David@excite.com), May 02, 2003.

The day you meet your maker, you will know, David.

What else can I say to you? If the Pope were to die before June, you wouldn't believe either.

Jesu made a prophecy about Jerusalem and the Temple. 40 years later it became true. The Jews still don't believe after almost 2000 years.

I can say this to you, by the grace of my God, I will reach close to the the age of this man I admired, The Pope. I am only half way. I have 40 years to do what I have to do.

Every branch the father has planted will never be uprooted, provided it is watered by the Son. May yahweh my God and his Son Jesus Christ continue to show me The WAY. Act 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself: Act 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship. Act 24:12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and [toward] men.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 02, 2003.

I meant before the end of June

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 02, 2003.

I was never given the exact calendar day. Only a certain number of trips.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 02, 2003.

Elpidio, Why should you, or me, or anybody, for that matter, be given the calendar date of somebody else's death? Or let you in on how many more trips the Pope has ahead? It's only a dream. It was the 3rd of 3 dreams you said. Not important enough to even merit a one- dream night? Fine.

I will try tonight to send a dream to you. Look for it right after you drop off to sleep. You'll see the devil, a red devil; and he'll say to you-- ''Fall down & worship me, Code Word Elpidio;''

You will worship him; wait and see. He is naturally entitled, because for years now you've been eating out of his hand. Code Word Elpidio is the pen name you brought here. He gave you the name.

How do you like them bananas?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 02, 2003.

Not all monkeys eat bananas, Eugene. They are good in Potassium.

I still remember the first 3 kids I told in December 1986. Alberto Vasquez had his belly cut open. He ran with his intestines out. He made that time, in 1987. Alberto Gonzalez shot in front of the elementary school in 1988 after talking to me. Alberto Martinez (curly) shot to death next to a store in Compton about the same time. Francisco (1995), Victor (1995), Michael "Porky"(1997),Daniel (1998), Julio V. 2000, My grandmother 1985, grandfather(1987)(mom's side), my grandfather(1991)and grandmother (2002)(father's side), the aunt of my wife (2000, exactly to the day= 7 days), My wife's grandmother (1998), my wife's niece (2002) ... last 2 students: Francisco Arias "Sharkey" and Steve Martinez (Sep. 2001).

Close encounters: My mother (2002), The Pope (Dec. 1998), The grandfather of my wife (2002), Yesenia C. (1998), Victor (2001). Al had been warned about a close encounter. God gave them time.

Still alive: 3 students. 2 of them asked me for help. I prayed for one. He has a a little kid. The President's brother. The White House has probably a good file on me since 1995 about dreams. They have all the letters I wrote about Clinton (The Monica Lwinsky scandal, the palestinian- Israeli tragedy, the precursor to 9/11...), about Bush ( 9/11, Afganistan, Bind Laden, Iraq, Sudan, duration of Afganistan and Iraq wars,...the President's future)If I ever did something wrong, I wouldn't be here to talk to you, Eugene.

Even the Prophet Isaiah told the King, Hezekiah he was about to die. Hezekiah asked Yahweh for mercy and time. He got it: 15 years.

John Paul II has gotten every wish he asked for. He wanted to go to Mexico. He got it (2002). He wanted to visit his homeland one last time (he got it) 2002. He wanted to visit the Holy Land. He got it (2000-2001). He wanted to visit those places seen by Paul the Apostle. He got it. He wanted to quiet the scandal caused by father Shanley that created havoc in the United states Church, he got it.He has come to the end of his life. He ran out of most wishes. One of his last wishes was about his Church in the future. I never told him the rest of my dreams about it. This happened around the time he wanted to go to Mexico in July 2002. If he ever knew the truth. The vatican has copies of everything I written since 1997. They have enough time to refute me in public, if so they wished.

Now it makes no difference to me to ever reveal them. Let the will of Yahweh be done.

So long, Eugene, May the the Peace of our Yahweh our God and the Love of his Son Jesus Christ be with you always.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 03, 2003.

Um, Elpo ... are you familiar with the word "crackpot"?
I do not believe a single word that you have told us here. I think that you are out of your gourd (or perhaps putting on an elaborate con-job).

Since you have disgusted me by predicting the pope's death by the end of June, 2003, suppose you tell us today what you are going to do to make reparation for your outrageous comments when he lives into July?

You did me one good turn here, though, Elpo. You gave the URL to that page about the pope and his papaya extract treatment. I have watched the pope on EWTN more than a hundred times in the past decade -- including during this past Holy Week and the current trip to Spain. Without the slightest doubt, his speech and energy levels have improved tremendously over their condition of one year ago.

I will pick up some papaya tomorrow -- but no habanero peppers.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 04, 2003.

Elpidio,

I have vivid dreams almost every night. Usually very brief now, but they used to be longer because I encouraged them. Sometimes they tell me things to do, some are on moral issues, many tell me people's bad qualities, many either seem to try to encourage things like lust, greed, fear or they are saying, remember when you were like that? Not sure which. I don't fret over which either. Probably would have to ask a witch, he he.

When I start to wake up and get more aware, I sometimes start to oppose the natural suggestion of the dream theme. Meaning I don't cooperate with what the dream is trying to say or do to me and can consciously act in the dream and fight its flow. Usually, close to that point, it ends. I don't think they flow through a mainline from God by any means, because if they do than God is not a Catholic, not even close. I don't put a lot of weight on them. I used to trust in them but not any more, because they are not 100% pure. When I put full trust in them they started to flip me out. If God wants me to know something, and I don't get it one way, such as from a dream in this case, he will make sure I "get it" another way. No need to work at dream interpretation or remembering. At best I might recall one and use it as a suggestion. One odd thing though, ever since I started to oppose dream suggestions, that is, I sometimes do the opposite of what they suggest or just try to forget them, ever since I did that, I see odd suggestions in nature that seem to "be messages". I suppose you call those omens and you aren't suppose to let those rule you either.

I look at them like people you just happen to bump into. They make you think, some help, some hurt, depending on what you need at the time. Dreams can turn on you just like people, they are not so predictable. I always talk to my priest or to people here on the forum or people in a spiritual group (bible study, AA), as a final guide in life.

I am not going to pass judgement on you and your dreaming Elpidio. If you are a full time teacher and speak multiple languages etc. you are obviously much brighter than I. Given my mind, perhaps I don't make use of graces as efficiently as you. Who knows. But I would be careful about speaking much publicly about special graces. Without great humility, special graces tend to become special curses.

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 05, 2003.

Hi.

A long time ago, a bishop told us that God speaks to us in our thoughts. If this is true, God speaks to us in our dreams, too.

I don't believe that God is constanly chatting with us, but only during our trials and tribulations. God surely reveals Himself in some ways other than only dreams. Especially, His revelations are witnessed in the trials and tribulations themselves.

Elpidio as you know, prophecies are only good when they come true. How will you interpret those dreams/prophecies that do not come to pass?

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

John G, follow the drinking gourd, was an old negro Spiritual (before 1860s) in the United States. It meant freedom. That is why John, a lot of the prophecies in the old Testament don't have dates. Those prophets were not stupid. They didn't want to be left in the cold if their propphecies were not fulfilled. They knew God could change the prophecy. That is the purpose of prophecy, John. It is to call people to repentance. It is meant to change their life, or to protect them from harm. Cases when prophecies were not fulfilled: God saying he will not punish Israel again, Elijah exacting vengeance on house of Ahab( Elisha his succesor did), no Moabite entering the congregation of Israel untile th 10th generation ( King david was 4 generation Moabite), God promised a descendant of David always on hte throne (that stoped in 587 BC when the Chaldeans took Jerusalem). Though 600 years later, a descendant of David took the spiritual throne of Israel and the world: Jesus son of Joseph, son of God. King hezekiah told to get ready to die by prophet Isaiah, ....Nineveh being spared destruction after the prophecy of Jonah because they repented.

Others, the people wanted to fulfill them or were fulfilled because people refused to listen. Abraham promised his descendants would be as the stars of heaven: Gen 22:17, Joseph's symbolic dreams coming true ( Gen. 37:5, Gen . Ch 40-41).He had to suffer to fulfill them. God promised Moses he would take his people into the promised land, even though he would not enter.( Exodus 4, Deuteronomy 34.)Yahweh promised the suffering servant ( Jesus)that one day he will judge in power, at his right hand. Isaiah 42, 52-53, Psalm 110. Use this Bible for reference.

Mike, I don't think I am superior to you in any manner. Languages don't require a higher intelligence but memorization. Now dreams could be good, bad or evil. They can be direct (real), symbolic (like Pharao's dream), symbolic and real,with voices, real symbolic and with voices, in trance, in direct vision, retrohistirical( that is , you are allowed to see the past), or rarely in teletransportation. I have experienced them all. In trance you don't remember too much. Voice dreams have a 95% + chance of being true. You hear voices of men. Once of Jesus. Twice of God himself.The words come out naturally out of your mouth without much tought.Cases of teletransportation: Jesus walking on water, Saint Martin de Porres in Africa while he was in Peru.(He was made a saint on the year of my birth. First Black African saint since Augustine.)

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

Rod, a prophecy becomes famous when it becomes true. But that is not the purpose of prophecy. A prophecy calls people to repentance, to change one's ways. What if the Jews of Jeremiah's time had listened to him? He told them to surrender to the Chaldeans. They didn't . The city of Jerusalem was and the nation were destroyed in 587 B.C. When hezekiah asked God for time, he didn't died as Iasaiah the prophet said. Unfortunately, he asked God for time to prepare his son, but his son, as soon as he died, abandoned God. This was the opposite of the Ninevites who repented around the year 660 BC when Jonah came to prach to them. God spared the city then. But in 612 BC, Nineveh was destroyed by the Chaldeans and Medes. They went back to their old ways. Jeusalem didn't listen to Jesus prophecues. It was destroyed in AD 70. It wasn't until; 1948 that Jews returned to the land and founded the State of Israel again.

God told Jesus about his death when he went up the mountain, in getsamane also. Yet Jesus said, your will be done. So did Paul when he was told not to go to Jerusalem. He still went. He was arrested. He was sent to Caesar, where he was executed.

Most of the so called visions of those visionaries before me were mostly dreams. Some were muzzled ( not to reveal vision, like Fatima's third secret given 1n 1917, revealed to the world in 2000, changed to fit received doctrine, like Bosco's dreams ( vision of Hell),...

John , Eugene, David and Mike think I search for fame. My purpose for life was entirely different. I wanted to enter politics in my country of Mexico. I was prevented from fulfilling those dreams. This happenend in the middle of 1985. I never imagined what was coming. The dreams began in 1986. In 2000 I talked to God and Jesus. You can see there was a long period before I talked to the main Person. The dream-vision had a command and a prophecy.

There were more in July and August 2002 about the future of the Church. I have never revealed them. I realized once I had them, that I had failed in my mission. I could not changed the mind of the Pope. I admired that man a lot. He broke my heart when he made Juan Diego, instead of marcos the painter of the image of la Virgen de Guadalupe a saint. He Made the wrong man a saint. But I understand. How can you erase the legend of Juan Diego since the 1630s. Fray Bernardino de Sahagun wrote the true story about the image. Here is his < a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13325a.htm'> biography

Here also you see a page dealing with La Virgen de Guadalupe

Busca sus libros acerca de la historia de las cosas de Nueva españa. Son como 13 o 14 libros. No recuerdo si es el libro 11 donde esta escrito esto. Todo lo que sabemos sobre el Mexico antiguo lo sabemos por Fray bartolomé. A este hombre le pasó lo que a Guillermo Schulembur. Cuidó de la imagen 30 años. Al jubilarse dijo que Juan Diego no existió. Sahagún antes de morir escribió sobre la imáge. No estaba tan menso tampoco. La obra se publicó alrededor de su muerte. Si eso dice los que sabe...que dirán los que están llenos de fe. Yo fui uno de ellos. Yo representé a Juan Diego en varias obras teatrales que yo mismo escribí. Así que he estado en ambos lados de la moneda. Se lo que significa ser aplaudido y ser maldecido.

Sometimes you have to live with prophecies that are not fulfilled because God allowed certain people to live. Unfortunately, people think you are a fake. So far, those dealing with the White House so far have been true. There is only one which needs to be fulfilled.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

Fray Bernardino de Sahagun wrote the true story about the image. Here is his < a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13325a.htm"> biography

I hope it works this time.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

There's not a shred of truth in your claims about Guadalupe, Elpidio. It's precisely when you risk these disingenuous attacks on the Catholic faith in Mexico that you expose your own true colors. A demagogue with the usual Mexican Marxist tendency. It's a pathetic way to come into this forum, Amigo. You ought to have more class.

How do you rebuild what little credibility you'd charmed up here? The filling fell out of your torta, Baby. Happy Cinco de Mayo--

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 05, 2003.

Have you read the books from Fray Bernardinod de Saghagún, Eugene?

When you have, send me an e-mail. You know where to find me.

It took me 3 weeks to read them all. It's about 14 of them. Everything there is to know about our mexican ancestors is there. Then you will understand why the Aztecs became catholics overnight.

As to credibility, I started at 0 %. There is no credibility when you go against what is generally believed as true. I have been on both sides. I was praised before, I a am put down now. Yet, the truth will in the end prevail.

Have you wonder Eugene, that as soon as the councils of Nicea, Ephesus, and Chalcedon defined the dogmas of Jesus Godhead and Mary being the mother of God, 4 churches sprung up: the Arrians in the Barbarians who took over France and Spain. Modern day Jehova's Witnesses. The Jacobites, modern day Syrians. The Nestorians, modern day Assyrians. And the Muhammedans, modern day Muslim: Sunnis, Shiah's,... together they number more than even the Roman Catholic Church. Go figure that out. God isn't a fool, Eugene. Myuhammad admits having revelations in a cave. It is unfortunate that the man couldn't read. His knowledge of scripture was flawed.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

Rod, I never started to discuss dreams in this forum. Eugene got them out of me.

I entered this forum in 2001. Dreams only became an issue at the end of 2002 in a thread deleted by the moderator because he thought Eugene was out of control. Not that Eugene were out of control, but that's his style.

I have been sending my dreams to the White House since 1995 and to the vatican since 1997. If I wanted attention, I could have tried a long time ago, by going public. This is the first year I go totally public.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

Elpidio,
Who is the father of lies? Our Lord knew who; and we know, because he told us who. The apple falls right under the tree. If your father is a liar, what are you? You may believe all our Catholic priests hunted, mutilated and killed during 1920's Mexico were preaching a lie about Guadalupe and the holy Catholic Church. What sense would it make to go to your death for something false? Only because it was all true would they let themselves be martyred.

El; liars tend to become very popular. It's the ones who love the truth who pay for their honesty. You'll need no honesty to sway lots of people with your public appearances. You will be followed around by the gullible. Like Miz Cleo.

Our Holy Father is a great man, Elpidio. His role model is Jesus Christ, who exposed the father of lies. If Juan Diego is a saint in his eyes, it's simply because our Holy Father can tell the truth from a lie. He isn't a fool & neither were your Indian ancestors (I'm full Spanish by descent, although if I were Mexican it would be something to be proud of.) The Virgin of Guadalupe appealed to your ancestors not by lying to them, but with an eternal Truth. The truth of Christ.

The holy image of Our Lady is obviously painted; and the Church knew this. It is nevertheless miraculous. As her true apparitions were. How was the image painted on the Indian tilma?

I believe it was in heaven; by a saint or an angel. No one knows. It could not be otherwise; and anyone who studies it will fail to answer how. But it's met all the requirements of full investigations by the Vatican. It is no obstacle against the cause for canonization of --Juan Diego. You must know the Church appoints a strict opponent to any cause for catholic sainthood, the Devil's Advocate.

He was forced to concede the truth of Juan Diego's cause, SOhe's a saint forever. Not a painter on the sly, Elpidio, UN SANTO.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 05, 2003.

John Paul II, Eugene, like I said is one of the Popes I admire the most. Others were John XXIII, Pope Pius (the one who defied Napoleon), Pope Gregory ( the one who gave us the calendar), Leo I ( for facig Attila), Damasus ( for caring about he scriptures).

Eugene, God chose the family of Aaron as High Priests. Yet, the High Priest couldn't see who Jesus was. God turned his back on them. Their temple is history. There have been no sacrifices since AD 70. So any saying that God cannot turn his back on the Church is baloney. Our Church is in danger of being destroyed just as the Revelation of the third secret of Fatima , approved by the Pope, tells: a man dressed in white walks through a city (half destroyed),...he goes up a mountain. The religious priests,..., a voice says penance, penance, and in the end the Pope, gets shot.

Notice Eugene, that wasn't my dream or vision. This happened in 1917. Also 2 Popes also had visions: the one that created the prayer to Saint Michael around 1884, and Pius in 1908.

These words are not mine, but of Michael Martin This prayer was composed by Pope Leo XIII after he experienced a horrifying vision. On October 13, 1884, while consulting with his cardinals after Mass, Pope Leo XIII paused at the foot of the altar and lapsed into what looked like a coma. After a little while the Pope recovered himself and related the terrifying vision he had of the battle between the Church and Satan. Afterwards, Pope Leo went to his office and composed this now famous prayer to St. Michael the Archangel and assigned it to be recited after Low Mass, a position it occupied until Vatican II. It was recently recommended by Pope John Paul II in a speech to a crowd of pilgrims gathered in St. Peter's Square on Sunday April 24, 1994 as a prayer for the Church. (See L' Osservatore Romano, April 27, 1994).

SANCTE Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperet illi Deus, supplices deprecamur: tuque, Princeps militiae coelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo, divina virtute, in infernum detrude. Amen. ST. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

I cared for my church, Eugene.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

Hi Elpidio y Eugene.

I better say this, now. John hit it right on the nail when he characterized me as a "Doubting Tom". I hope this can keep me far from being called "gullible". My greatest flaw is that of being skeptical.

Elpidio- Prophets are never accepted in their own land.

Eugene- I keep thinking that you are a priest. I wonder how many priest post here.

Is there anyway of convincing you, Elpidio, of Jesus not being an exalted human (7th Day Adventist belief), but that Jesus is God?

Hey, the school years is almost over!

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

"...school years..."???

I meant school year, but the school years is almost true as well.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

Rod, Eugene is a happily married man!

Elpidio, you said, "I wanted to enter politics in my country of Mexico."

Ah, now I understand why you are such a "b.s. artist"!

Last time, I said that I thought that "you are out of your gourd (or perhaps putting on an elaborate con-job)."

Surely you know that "out of your gourd" means that you have "flipped your wig" and have "bats in the belfry" -- i.e., that you are at least a bit nutty?
Why then did you go off on a tangent like this?:
"[F]ollow the drinking gourd, was an old negro Spiritual (before 1860s) in the United States."
Wait a minute? Why am I asking you this? To go off on a tangent is in keeping with being out of your gourd.

But seriously, Elpo ... Please spare us your long recitations of trivia. Remember that you are not in the classroom razzle-dazzling your students when you come to this forum. You are talking to intelligent adults whom you cannot "con."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Hi John.

You wrote:

"Rod, Eugene is a happily married man!"

Yes, but to the Church or a woman? he.he.he.h...

I don't mean to pry. It's just that when some of you all write, you all sound like priests. A good thing.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

John G., I do not know where in this world you live. I don't think is California. I saw the message saying 4:05 a.m. My first impression was, this man had a revelation. When I saw the message, I said, this man went down the Mississipppi. He didn't follow the Drinking Gourd.

I would admit you are one one the most intellectual men I have met in the forum, John G. You are up there with Chris B ( who tries his best to avoid me), Paul (great Deacon), Emerald, Eugene ( Great common Sense -old wisdom, coming from New Mexico, the land of the refranes).

Name calling is not an intellectual gift of yours. You are in the same league as those early Christian apologetics of the first centuries. They tend to anathemize everyone who doesn't agree with them. That is your only shortcoming. It takes more than calling me a con man.... an so on to get at my weak point. Adulation, pride, kissing a...,superiority,...are not among my strengths or weaknesses.

See you in the next thread about he origin of the Gospel opf John. Let's see if your intellectual mind is up to the test this time.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

Elpidio;
The Church is going through a cycle again. But she has ALWAYS been in danger, we need no great revelation with dream-like warnings to her faithful. Our Lord almost casually prophesied these cycles of scandal and great hardships. He knew from the start our Church was the world's lightning rod, set in opposition to the world. He told us we must be watchful and pray, not fall into heresies and sectarian strife. But men don't watch, and hardly pray for grace and wisdom. They follow some guru who cleans the slate for them; men like yourself.

They think they're better off with this than having faith in God's promises. Christ is God; Who declares unconditionally, I am with you all days even to the end of the world. He is with us in the Church.

His priesthood is obvious; Saint Paul writes, ''Wherefore it was right He should in all things be made like unto His brethren (Man) that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest before God to expiate the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered and has been tempted, He is able to help (understand) those who are tempted. (Hebrews 2 :17-18)

Christ is priest according to the priesthood of Melchisedec; and may have actually come to earth as Melchisedec in the Old Testament. He is Eternal, God the Son. You can't understand that, because you haven't accepted His Word (Logos)--

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

off i /

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

Rod--
You flatter me. I'm not a priest; it was not my calling. I was called to a holy vocation, but not as a priest or brother or deacon. My vocation until the end of the 1970's was to suffer silently. (Nothing to feel sorry about.) From an early age I was a faithful Catholic but, like most of us, went through many bad stages of lukewarmness and sins. But also suffering. I have a syndrome of sorts which made me very despondent and shy. I had no real social life, and spent hours reading. I am self-educated, because high school was too traumatic for me to even graduate.

No I'm not the Elephant Man. Lol! I simply had a hormonal imbalance. Now I have reached maturity and medical attention; and I owe everything to the woman I love. My wife came to me

Absolutely and certainly from Jesus Christ Himself. I can see no other possibility. My happiness only started when we met, and we are both immensely grateful to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I am living proof He hears our prayers.

During my years as a bachelor, I learned everything I could by reading & listening to music. My studies were most profound in the categories of art, music, religion and literature. I speak two languages fluently, and understand two others enough to read them. But God is still my first love. Hard for this forum to believe but I love all human beings; they really thrill me. My vocation is to love all of you, and everybody around me. Even when I confront somebody HERE, I can detach myself and love that person.

You might think ''He's a saint.'' Some folks do-- among my relatives. But no way. I'm spiritual, but quite human. I fall and rise again, like any sinner in our Catholic Church. I need everybody's prayers.

Enough about ME-- Thanks for inquiring.

.+.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

Eugene,

Awesome

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 06, 2003.

Well, I feel very fortunate to have stumbled upon this forum. And, I certainly feel blessed to have met you and the many others who have exhibited their genuine faith and love in Christ.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

That was really inspiring, Eugene. My stepfather, he's dead now, was another self-educated man. I am glad you never stopped. I knew there was a soft side to you. That is why I never tried to insult you Eugene verbally, even when I felt you were throwing rocks at me.

As to the last post you wrote: I accepted everything you wrote, as you wrote it. Here is where the theological divide exists. I can swallow you say God the Son ( a priest after Melchizedec), but not that Jesus is God himself. To say God the Son implies Jesus has some of the attributes of God: power over nature, curing people,... To say Jesus is God implies that Jesus was praying to the wrong man or God: Father, who are in heaven, holy be your name, your Kingdom come, on Earth as it is in heaven. ( The our before Father was added later to make it a collective prayer.)

May Yavé continue to bless you in your personal life, Eugene.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

Elpidio, your last statement sounded something like the argument for Arianism or a sort of a gnostic orientation. Is that your viewpoint? Just curious.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), May 06, 2003.

I hope he answers you, Mr. Furst. I'll await his answer and follow after that.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202) Adversus haereses (inter A.D. 180/199) Book I Chapter 26

Doctrines of Cerinthus, the Ebionites, and Nicolaitanes

1. Cerinthus, again, a man who was educated in the wisdom of the Egyptians, taught that the world was not made by the primary God, but by a certain Power far separated from him, and at a distance from that Principality who is supreme over the universe, and ignorant of him who is above all. He represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation, while he nevertheless was more righteous, prudent, and wise than other men. Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler, and that then he proclaimed the unknown Father, and performed miracles. But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassible, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being.

2. Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

Translated by the Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson. Here is the thread [ a href=http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103126.htm"] on Ireneus[/a]

I took this passage to show you that the Ebionites ( the followers of James, the bishop of Jerusalem) believed like Cerinthus that Jesus was the son of Joseph. Since James was a physical relative of Jesus, he knew Jesus real origin. 1 Corinthians 9:5 :: New International Version (NIV) 1 Corinthians 9 5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas[1] ?

Galatians 1 19 I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.

1 Corinthians 15

Was James important in the Church, you bet!

The Resurrection of Christ

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[1] : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[2] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James

Main job? see for yourself. Acts 15 12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, < b>James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[1] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: 16" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'[2] 18that have been known for ages.[3] 19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

When Emperor Constantine forced everyone to have one belief, these Ebionites had only 2 choices: convert or leave the empire.

You can see, then, my ideas are not Arrian. I agree more with the Ebionites about Jesus persona. I don't follow their Judaism based on the Law: circumcision,....I follow Paul on that respect.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

That was for you Jim F.

As you can see, I don't consider myself an Arrian. May sound Arrian, but not an Arrian. That title belongs to the Jehovah's Winesses.

I consider myself sort of a Pauline when it comes to God's grace, an Ebionite when it comes to doing good works ( that is good actions, not works of the law like circumcision), and a Quartodeciman . Figure that out.

To put it in modern words for you: A Christian Catholic Yahwist. That is: I believe Jesus is the Christ. He paid the penalty for us. I believe in a universal Catholic communion of believers because we are called to salvation. I accept the Pope. I believe in the uniqueness of God: Deuteronomy says: Shema...yahweh eloheinu Yahweh ehad ( Listen , Yavé our God is the only Yavé (there is).

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

Thanks Elpidio, understood.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), May 06, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Elpidio.

Your statement has to be one of the weakest arguments for following a heresy that I have ever seen in my life. You wrote:
"I took this passage to show you that the Ebionites (the followers of James, the bishop of Jerusalem) believed, like Cerinthus, that Jesus was the son of Joseph. Since James was a physical relative of Jesus, he knew Jesus real origin."

What? You would follow the conjecture of a bunch of nobodies, the Ebionites, rather than the New Testament and the Church that wrote it, the Church that Jesus founded, which tells you that St. Joseph was NOT the natural father of Jesus?

You have nothing written by St. James himself telling you to believe the heresy that you cling to. You have only (I assume) some Ebionite allegation that St. James told them such a thing.
Why did it not ever occur to you that, even if St. James did think such a thing [though I'm sure he didn't], his mere belief wouldn't make it true, but would only make it a very natural assumption that was shared within the extended-family circle.

Why, instead of relying on a few quickly-vanished Ebionites, did you not rely on the testimony of the best possible source of information -- the eyewitness named Mary (Jesus's mother), who told all the evangelists the fact that Jesus's Father was almighty God himself -- and NOT St. Joseph???

Elpidio, God gave you at least normal intelligence, possibly much more. But you have to exercise it, instead of letting it lie dormant, hibernating. Come on, man. You have no excuse at all for failing to return to Catholicism.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

he.he.he.h....

I like Jim Furst's reply as he yells, "taxi....!" and gets the hay out of the way.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

Are you sure John G there is nothing from James? Acts 21 Paul's Arrival at Jerusalem

17When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

If Paul had said Jesus was God, why isn't that part of the accusations against him? See Acts 24:The Trial Before Felix

1Five days later the high priest Ananias went down to Caesarea with some of the elders and a lawyer named Tertullus, and they brought their charges against Paul before the governor. 2When Paul was called in, Tertullus presented his case before Felix: "We have enjoyed a long period of peace under you, and your foresight has brought about reforms in this nation. 3Everywhere and in every way, most excellent Felix, we acknowledge this with profound gratitude. 4But in order not to weary you further, I would request that you be kind enough to hear us briefly. 5"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect 6and even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him. 8By[1] examining him yourself you will be able to learn the truth about all these charges we are bringing against him." 9The Jews joined in the accusation, asserting that these things were true.

Paul's desecration was that he brought gentiles into the Temple, not that he claimed Jesus to be God.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

Don't you think John G that if James believed that Jesus was God the Jews would accept him in the Temple?

do you see an scripture from James saying Jesus is God?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

Who knows you better John G? Your mom, your wife (if you have any) or Eugene Chavez?

Why didn't Jesus relatives think he was crazy?

Jesus' Mother and Brothers Mark 3 31Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." 33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. 34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

Now the real Elpidio reveals himself; a cross between heretical Hebrew and a false prophet within the Christian fold. A hybrid with delusions of grandeur!

''Paul's desecration was that he brought gentiles into the Temple, not that he claimed Jesus to be God.'' Really?

But Paul meant it for you, saying,''. . . the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, For it is written, I will catch the wise in their craftiness.''

In Col 1, ''For it has pleased God the Father that in Him (Jesus) all His fullness should dwell.'' God's entire Essence dwells in the Son. You ignore the words of Paul who states that Jesus didn't regard His being equal to God our Father as something to be grasped, but ''emptied Himself'' metanoia / and took the form of a man, and even a slave; dying for us on the cross. We know he clearly taught and understood Our Lord was truly God; and he preached it fearlessly to the Jews. Then when rejected by them, he became the apostle to the Gentiles. Don't pretend to spin the holy Scripture. If you reject this truth, Elpidio, that's your sin. Don't push the error on this forum of believers. You have no respect.

Nevertheless, it comes as a relief to have you drop your pretense of good intent in this forum. You're an enemy of the faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 07, 2003.

Jmj

Elpidio, please reply to Eugene before replying to me. His message is important.

Now, in my last message, I stated these things to you, because I wanted you to focus on proving your outrageous (to Catholics) claim that St. Joseph was Jesus's biological father:

"You would follow the conjecture of a bunch of nobodies, the Ebionites, rather than the New Testament and the Church that wrote it, the Church that Jesus founded, which tells you that St. Joseph was NOT the natural father of Jesus? You have nothing written by St. James himself telling you to believe the heresy that you cling to [i.e., that St. Joseph was the father]. ... Why, instead of relying on a few quickly-vanished Ebionites, did you not rely on the testimony of the best possible source of information -- the eyewitness named Mary (Jesus's mother), who told all the evangelists the fact that Jesus's Father was almighty God himself -- and NOT St. Joseph?"

Now take a look at how you replied to me ...
You (1) failed to provide a shred of the evidence that is required and you (2) failed to explain why you ignore the testimony of the Mother.
Instead, apparently giving in to a devilish temptation to deflect my attention and lead me astray, you brought in a few irrelevant passages (from Acts 21, Acts 24, and Mark 3). Instead of doing your duty and proving your disgusting allegation about St. Joseph, you try to force me to show where Jesus is called God. Well, guess what? You cannot manipulate me, sir.

I repeat my closing comment to you: "Elpidio, God gave you at least normal intelligence, possibly much more. But you have to exercise it, instead of letting it lie dormant, hibernating. Come on, man. You have no excuse at all for failing to return to Catholicism."

At the very least, take the gallant steps of saying (1) that you have no evidence that St. Joseph was the biological father of Jesus and (2) that God may have been the father of Jesus, as Mary testified to St. Luke and others.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Los pasajes anteriores era para demostrar la conexion entre los ebionita y Santiago

Para Eugene and John Gecik ( matar dos pájaros de un sólo tiro) Question 1: If Jesus is God himself, why then God asks him to sit at his right hand? Salmos 110 1 JEHOVA dijo á mi Señor: Siéntate á mi diestra, En tanto que pongo tus enemigos por estrado de tus pies. 2 La vara de tu fortaleza enviará Jehová desde Sión: Domina en medio de tus enemigos. 3 Tu pueblo serálo de buena voluntad en el día de tu poder, En la hermosura de la santidad: desde el seno de la aurora, Tienes tú el rocío de tu juventud. 4 Juró Jehová, y no se arrepentirá: Tú eres sacerdote para siempre Según el orden de Melchîsedech. Question 2: If Jesus is God himself, then why calls him my servant?

Isaías 61

13 He aquí que mi siervo será prosperado, será engrandecido y ensalzado, y será muy sublimado. 14 Como se pasmaron de ti muchos, en tanta manera fué desfigurado de los hombres su parecer; y su hermosura más que la de los hijos de los hombres. 15 Empero él rociará muchas gentes: los reyes cerrarán sobre él sus bocas; porque verán lo que nunca les fué contado, y entenderán lo que jamás habían oído

Isaías 53 :: Reina-Valera Antigua (RVA) Isaías 53 1 ¿QUIÉN ha creído á nuestro anuncio? ¿y sobre quién se ha manifestado el brazo de Jehová? 2 Y subirá cual renuevo delante de él, y como raíz de tierra seca: no hay parecer en él, ni hermosura: verlo hemos, mas sin atractivo para que le deseemos. 3 Despreciado y desechado entre los hombres, varón de dolores, experimentado en quebranto: y como que escondimos de él el rostro, fué menospreciado, y no lo estimamos. 4 Ciertamente llevó él nuestras enfermedades, y sufrió nuestros dolores; y nosotros le tuvimos por azotado, por herido de Dios y abatido. 5 Mas él herido fué por nuestras rebeliones, molido por nuestros pecados: el castigo de nuestra paz sobre él; y por su llaga fuimos nosotros curados. 6 Todos nosotros nos descarriamos como ovejas, cada cual se apartó por su camino: mas Jehová cargó en él el pecado de todos nosotros. 7 Angustiado él, y afligido, no abrió su boca: como cordero fué llevado al matadero; y como oveja delante de sus trasquiladores, enmudeció, y no abrió su boca. 8 De la cárcel y del juicio fué quitado; y su generación ¿quién la contará? Porque cortado fué de la tierra de los vivientes; por la rebelión de mi pueblo fué herido. 9 Y dipúsose con los impíos su sepultura, mas con los ricos fué en su muerte; porque nunca hizo él maldad, ni hubo engaño en su boca. 10 Con todo eso Jehová quiso quebrantarlo, sujetándole á padecimiento. Cuando hubiere puesto su vida en expiación por el pecado, verá linaje, vivirá por largos días, y la voluntad de Jehová será en su mano prosperada. 11 Del trabajo de su alma verá y será saciado; con su conocimiento justificará mi siervo justo á muchos, y él llevará las iniquidades de ellos. 12 Por tanto yo le daré parte con los grandes, y con los fuertes repartirá despojos; por cuanto derramó su vida hasta la muerte, y fué contado con los perversos, habiendo él llevado el pecado de muchos y orado por los transgresores.

Question 3: Jesus is king. To be so,, he needs to be descended from King David. Zacarias 9 9 Alégrate mucho, hija de Sión; da voces de júbilo, hija de Jerusalem: he aquí, tu rey vendrá á ti, justo y salvador, humilde, y cabalgando sobre un asno, así sobre un pollino hijo de asna.

Zacarías 12: 10 Y derramaré sobre la casa de David, y sobre los moradores de Jerusalem, espíritu de gracia y de oración; y mirarán á mí, á quien traspasaron, y harán llanto sobre él, como llanto sobre unigénito, afligiéndose sobre él como quien se aflige sobre primogénito. 11 En aquel día habrá gran llanto en Jerusalem, como el llanto de Adadrimón en el valle de Megiddo.

Question 4: Who will be the king over the whole Earth one day, Jesus or Yahweh? Zacarías 14 1 HE aquí, el día de Jehová viene, y tus despojos serán repartidos en medio de ti. 2 Porque yo reuniré todas las gentes en batalla contra Jerusalem; y la ciudad será tomada, y saqueadas serán las casas, y forzadas las mujeres: y la mitad de la ciudad irá en cautiverio, mas el resto del pueblo no será talado de la ciudad. 3 Después saldrá Jehová, y peleará con aquellas gentes, como peleó el día de la batalla. 4 Y afirmaránse sus pies en aquel día sobre el monte de las Olivas, que está en frente de Jerusalem á la parte de oriente: y el monte de las Olivas, se partirá por medio de sí hacia el oriente y hacia el occidente haciendo un muy grande valle; y la mitad del monte se apartará hacia el norte, y la otra mitad hacia el mediodía. 5 Y huiréis al valle de los montes; porque el valle de los montes llegará hasta Hasal; y huiréis de la manera que huisteis por causa del terremoto en los días de Uzzías, rey de Judá: y vendrá Jehová mi Dios, y con él todos los santos. 6 Y acontecerá que en ese día no habrá luz clara, ni oscura. 7 Y será un día, el cual es conocido de Jehová, que ni será día ni noche; mas acontecerá que al tiempo de la tarde habrá luz. 8 Acontecerá también en aquel día, que saldrán de Jerusalem aguas vivas; la mitad de ellas hacia la mar oriental, y la otra mitad hacia la mar occidental, en verano y en invierno. 9 Y Jehová será rey sobre toda la tierra. En aquel día Jehová será uno, y uno su nombre. 10 Y toda la tierra se tornará como llanura desde Gabaa hasta Rimmón al mediodía de Jerusalem: y ésta será enaltecida, y habitarse ha en su lugar desde la puerta de Benjamín hasta el lugar de la puerta primera, hasta la puerta de los rincones; y desde la torre de Hananeel hasta los lagares del rey. 11 Y morarán en ella, y nunca más será anatema: sino que será Jerusalem habitada confiadamente. 12 Y esta será la plaga con que herirá Jehová á todos los pueblos que pelearon contra Jerusalem: la carne de ellos se disolverá estando ellos sobre sus pies, y se consumirán sus ojos en sus cuencas, y su lengua se les deshará en su boca. 13 Y acontecerá en aquel día que habrá en ellos gran quebrantamiento de Jehová; porque trabará cada uno de la mano de su compañero, y su mano echará contra la mano de su compañero. 14 Y Judá también peleará en Jerusalem. Y serán reunidas las riquezas de todas las gentes de alrededor: oro, y plata, y ropas de vestir, en grande abundancia. 15 Y tal como esto será la plaga de los caballos, de los mulos, de los camellos, de los asnos, y de todas las bestias que estuvieren en aquellos campamentos. 16 Y todos los que quedaren de las gentes que vinieron contra Jerusalem subirán de año en año á adorar al Rey, Jehová de los ejércitos, y á celebrar la fiesta de las Cabañas. 17 Y acontecerá, que los de las familias de la tierra que no subieren á Jerusalem á adorar al Rey, Jehová de los ejércitos, no vendrá sobre ellos lluvia. 18 Y si la familia de Egipto no subiere, y no vinere, sobre ellos no habrá lluvia; vendrá la plaga con que Jehová herirá las gentes que no subieren á celebrar la fiesta de las Cabañas. 19 Esta será la pena del pecado de Egipto, y del pecado de todas las gentes que no subieran á celebrar la fiesta de las Cabañas. 20 En aquel tiempo estará sobre las campanillas de los caballos: SANTIDAD A JEHOVA; y las ollas en la casa de Jehová serán como los tazones delante del altar. 21 Y será toda olla en Jerusalem y en Judá santidad á Jehová de los ejércitos: y todos los que sacrificaren, vendrán y tomarán de ellas, y cocerán en ellas: y no habrá más Cananeo alguno en la casa de Jehová de los ejércitos en aquel tiempo.

Al buen entendedor, pocas palabras bastan.

Copyright 1995-2003 Gospel Communications International Box 455, Muskegon, MI 49443 1-231-773-3361 Contact and feedback : Bible Gateway feedback

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 07, 2003.

From Luke we see Mary is related to Elizabeth, the wife of . A priest of Abijah. Taken from Luke 1 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest, by name Zacharias, of the course of Abijah, and his wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elisabeth;

36 and lo, Elisabeth, thy kinswoman, she also hath conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month to her who was called barren; 37 because nothing shall be impossible with God.'

Notice Joseph is from the tribe Judah, the tribe of David. We are not told Mary's tribe.

26 And in the sixth month was the messenger Gabriel sent by God, to a city of Galilee, the name of which [is] Nazareth, 27 to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name [is] Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin [is] Mary.

Notice that in Levitcus, the wives of the priests tended to be from their kin (same tribe). That was a commandment from Moses( See Numbers 36).So in most likelihood Elizabeth was from the tribe of Levi. Mary was probably too.

In order for Jesus to descend from David, he had to come from Joseph. Leviticus 21 13 `And he taketh a wife in her virginity; 14 widow, or cast out, or polluted one -- a harlot -- these he doth not take, but a virgin of his own people he doth take [for] a wife, 15 and he doth not pollute his seed among his people; for I [am] Jehovah, sanctifying him.'

This concludes my presentation on why Jesus was the son of Joseph in the flesh. This doesn't negate his connection to God.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 07, 2003.

Elpidio,

You're wrong about the bloodline of Joseph and Mary: Mary is herself a direct descendent in the line of David. Joseph is not related by blood to Jesus at all; he never fathered a family by any wife. You won't find any word in the scripture pointing to his own sons or daughters. Nothing you've placed here is a revelation. More importantly:

You have no notion of what is the hypostatic union in the Person of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man. You allow the OT verses on the suffering servant, and the royal line of David, etc., to conjure up the image of a man's nature along our own lines, human, no matter how holy or elevated from the norm. That's a mistake, in the case of the son of God, Who is unique in human history.

Christ is of TWO natures in His Incarnation. The Divine united and incarnated into the Human. But ONE Person, not distinct persons in one flesh. He is no ''split personality''.

The passages relating to Jesus' Messianic identity and the walking, talking Son of Man are in context with His visible, day-to-day earthly existence. (Man side of the hypostatic union--) We easily realise by His words, however, and the wonders He publicly works in the new Testament narratives; as well as His resurrection & ascension to the right hand of His Father; --That He is much more than a Son of Man. His humanity is one with his divinity; (Our God hypostaticly in union with Man,) not added on to it, but ONE person, Jesus Christ. God the Son, descended from above to take on flesh for the salvation of the world. .

You seem to have dismissed my advice to see what Saint Paul really taught about this. The whole epistle to the Hebrews is replete with his faith and teachings in Christ's equality and oneness with God. I'm disappointed in you; your total unwillingness to discover the truth. Go back and read these teachings. Enough of pasting large tapizes of text; all misunderstood in your private interpretation. A faulty interpretation never assisted by grace.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 07, 2003.

It took councils, synods, and general (ecumenical) councils to define the person known as Jesus. ( By the way, the word persona was taken from Tertullian, who after being a fervent Catholic, left the church and joined sort of a charismatic movement known as the Montanists).

What else can I say, Eugene. QED.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srlas.org), May 07, 2003.

That's the sneaky way of side-stepping Saint Paul's epistles. You show your cobre, 'Mano.

Did a leftover son from Mary's brood turn up in your cool studies of Tertullian? Saint Joseph is praised at the finale of the Catholic Litany of the saints like: Blessed be Saint Joseph, her most chaste spouse.'' Her being the Immaculate Virgin Mary. I'll stick with the true account. No need to ask anybody in Los Angeles.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 07, 2003.

Jmj

I'm still waiting, Elpidio, for something I know that you cannot do ...
1. Prove your blunt allegation that St. Joseph was -- you didn't say "could have been" -- was the biological father of Jesus
2. Explain why you disbelieve the Blessed Virgin Mary, who told the evangelists that GOD is the Father of Jesus, NOT St. Joseph. Why did she, why would she, lie?

You make feeble tries at #1, but cannot "prove" anything.
You don't even bother to make a try at #2.
All this adds up to make your comments 100% unworthy of respect.

As Catholics, Gene and I and others have a duty to tell you, right off the bat, that we KNOW that St. Joseph was not Jesus's biological father ... because the infallible Church founded by Jesus has a living, 2000-year-old memory of this fact and teaches it to us. All other arguments are distant secondary ones. We know the truth by faith and reason. You prove that you know nothing via either of those two routes.

Elpo, you were raised a Catholic, so you had an absolute duty to cling to that faith until the day you died. But you did not merely slip into schism. You did not merely slip into heresy. You slipped all the way into apostasy, leaving the Christian religion entirely. How very sad. Give up the nonsense and come back, please.

Well, you won't take the Church's word for the truth, so let's turn to something secondary. Since (though you are neither Jewish, Christian, nor Moslem) you claim to take the Bible seriously, let's look at what you said the Bible says about the Holy Family ...

----- "From Luke we see Mary is related to Elizabeth, the wife of a priest of Abijah. ..."

The ancestry of St. Elizabeth proves nothing. As you later said, "We are not told Mary's tribe." Mary may or may not have been descended from Levi (priestly class) through both parents -- or perhaps only through one, with the other parent being descended from Judah. (Either way, though, it doesn't matter, as we'll see in a moment.)

----- "Notice Joseph is from the tribe Judah, the tribe of David."

This proves nothing about St. Joseph having any children, in particular Jesus. I know that your point is that Jesus was prophesied to rise from the tribe of Judah, so this makes you assume that he is a biological son of St. Joseph. But you have no proof to support that assumption. You see, St. Joseph, in marrying the virgin Mary, adopted Jesus, the Son of God. This adoption, according to Jewish law, made Jesus a child of the tribe of Judah, thus fulfilling the prophecy. Again, I say, you have no proof.

I reiterate the fact that Mary told at least the evangelists, and possibly all the first-century Christians, the truth: that St. Joseph was only Jesus's "foster-father," since she had conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit of God.

Besides this we have the following facts:
----- that Jesus is NEVER recorded as having spoken of "my father, Joseph."
----- that Jesus, at age 12, told St. Joseph that he (Jesus) had to be in "my Father's house" (or "about my Father's business"). [He knew that his father was God, not St. Joseph.]
----- that Jesus publicly referred to God, not St. Joseph, as his Father -- at least scores, perhaps hundreds or thousands, of times.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Elpidio

I didn't mean to bring a storm of controversy upon you. As Rod observed it did look like I yelled Taxi! and "got the hay out of the way." My intent was only to understand your perspective. I'm in no position to judge and have a long way to go. I read a book a year or so back that you might find interesting. "James the Brother of Jesus" by Robert Eisenman. His conclusions are largely discounted by most theologians, but its still a fascinating read. Should be read with the understanding that it is in not Catholic in any way. Its an attempt at historical reconstruction. THe documentaion is massive, however much is based on scriptures and writings that were rejected by the early church fathers. Its documentation is based on the works of Josephus, pseudo-Clementine writings, Hegessipus, Origin, apocryphal works, inconsistansies in the new testement etc. Eisenman suggests that there is much more solidly documented information about James than about Jesus. He sees James as the primary force after Christ in early Jewish Christianity, (more so than Peter) and an important scorce of information about the origins of our faith. He feels that James was for the most part written out of the cannonical gospels because his Jewish slant just didn't fit with the Church's ongoing revelation. Notes and documentaion for his arguments will keep you busy for ages. This post in no way is meant to recommend or condone Eisenman's viewpoint, just an interesting well researched book that may be up your alley. It may seem anti-catholic to some, but I read it simply as a scholarly work. I try to understand this type of material as being separate from issues of Faith. (an area in which I need much work.)

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), May 07, 2003.

Jim, that is true, a lot is known about James, the brother of the lord. I have read Josephus works. Also several of the Church fathers about James. They have tried to make him a relative as opposed to a brother. James was not one of the twelve. Since in the beginning Jesuus family thought he was going crazy, it makes sense why he was accepted into the Church, as Paul in I Corinthias 15 states that Jesus appeared to James. Also, since he was family, he had a lot of weight in the first council at Jerusalem in AD 49. Peter may have received the keys of the Kingdom by Jesus, but he was no physical relation. That is why the pronouncement of James was accepted.

John G, as far as I remember, adoption was when a brother died, the other brother raised children on his brother's behalf by taking on his dead brother's wife. Since that wasn't the case with Joseph, then Jesus had to be his real son.

You can call me anything you like. That doesn't deny the fact for me that Jesus is the Christ.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 07, 2003.

This comes under the heading of perverse, Elpidio. We ought to resolve the matter by saying, ''If that's what makes you happy, get lost. We have nothing else to discuss.''

I'm serious. You are in the wrong forum. It was nice knowing you.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 08, 2003.

Elpidio, you wrote [with my emphasis added]:
"... as far as I remember, adoption was when a brother died, the other brother raised children on his brother's behalf by taking on his dead brother's wife. Since that wasn't the case with Joseph, then Jesus had to be his real son."

You "remember" wrongly.
You are describing the levirate law, which is not related to "adoption" but to inheritance. Adoption (for the purpose of our discussion) refers to a man's accepting into his household the child of a different father.
Joseph adopted Jesus, making him legally a member of the tribe of Judah -- if he was not already one through his mother Mary.

Adios. JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 08, 2003.

Jesus is in fact descended in blood through His mother from David the King.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 08, 2003.

I think that was a theory made by Africanus, Eugene.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 08, 2003.

I have a genealogical table that shows Mary's descent from David. Luke's line reads: David, Nathan, Levi, Mathat, Joachim Heli, MARY, Jesus the Messiah. The same table shows Joseph's line.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 08, 2003.

Post it. I want to see where you got it from.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonalez@srla.org), May 08, 2003.

Dear El,
My scanner is on the blink. I'll just tell you.

It's in the last page of Life Of the Virgin Mary, a TAN edition of Mary's life as seen in the visions of one Anne Catherine Emmerich. You may be indirectly aware of this stigmatized German nun who lived around the time of the American Civil War.

I read the book many years ago, and recommend it highly.

It goes without saying Emmerich supported the ''theory'' you speak of, however, the whole account of the Virgin's life, including her family tree, was reported to an amenuensis during ecstacies and her copy of Luke's gospel wasn't available to her during the visions. Maybe she'd memorized the geneaology? Hardly--

What's more, her visions took place in very strange circumstances. She was in a moribund state, intensely ill, in the presence of witnesses all the time. They expected her to die on the spot, and she almost never did; until one day many years later, she died. It doesn't matter.

The early Church Fathers all knew she was herself of the line of David, as well as Joseph. It is Tradition, and no one disputes it. If I could right now, I would go back over many other books in which Mary was given a Davidic ancestral history.

In fairness to you, Luke calls his genealogy of Christ Joseph's Davidic bloodline. The Emmerich tree shows Mary's own father Saint Joachim, a son of Joachim-Heli; and it's a little confusing for me to distinguish this person from Joseph's own father, Heli (Eli?) who is the son of Matthat.--

Please understand, Jesus' only biological parent is Mary, and the family she sprang from had to be David's line; even though the legal kinship through Joseph (as John G. points out) would still suffice. Yet, I hardly think God patched Jesus into a Son of David relation. God is more powerful than that.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 08, 2003.

I was looking over the book I mention here; and the footnote (not her own words) say something very revealing.

The genealogical line in Luke 3 :23 makes for tricky reading; as it seems to say Joseph, the foster- father of Jesus was a son of Heli, & the line goes from Heli on upwards to Nathan, son of David.

But the reality is, Joseph is not Heli's son. Heli is Mary's father, Joachim. He is descended from David, & Mary has to be, ; though she isn't mentioned in the text of Christ's ancestors (Luke 3) --instead, Our Lord's grandfather is, Joachim-Heli.

Heli was his name from birth; and later became Joachim; much like Abram became Abraham, Jacob- Israel, etc., --An explanation is given in the footnote:

the ''--basic principle of Jewish genealogists: the father's race is called a race, the mother's race is not; (Talmud, Baba Bathra, f. 110). The father of Mary, according to this rule was the first of Our Lord's forebears in the flesh that could be used in the lineage. The family tree Luke cites is Mary's without using her name! (Luke 3).

The proper punctuation of Luke's passage in the Greek was supposed to say, ''Jesus, being the son (as it was supposed of Joseph) . . . of Heli (Mary's father.)

It would pay you to obtain this book. Particularly you, since you are a believer in dream messages and revelations.

Here you have a nun of the Augustinian order,-- bearing the stigmata, of impeccable reputation for her holiness, who saw the lives of saints, bishops, holy events throughout the world whatever related to Jesus Christ & His Church; Old Testament and New Testament- - all in dreams and visions. Not apparitions, as in Fatima, etc., but in visions-- during which she was unconscious or asleep.

You are supposed to understand those things. It ought to fascinate you.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 08, 2003.

Thanks, Eugene for the info. There is always something new for me to know.

It is news to me that Heli= Joachim. Joachim is the man mentioned in the banned protoevangelium of James and of the the Book of Mary.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 08, 2003.

The Book of Mary is known as The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary This rejected book says that mary descends from David.

CHAPTER 1

The blessed and glorious ever-virgin Mary, sprung from the royal stock and family of David, born in the city of Nazareth, was brought up at Jerusalem in the temple of the Lord. Her father was named Joachim, and her mother Anna. Her father's house was from Galilee and the city of Nazareth, but her mother's family from Bethlehem. Their life was guileless and right before the Lord, and irreproachable and pious before men. For they divided all their substance into three parts. One part they spent upon the temple and the temple servants; another they distributed to strangers and the poor; the third they reserved, for themselves and the necessities of their family. Thus, dear to God, kind to men, for about twenty years they lived in their own house, a chaste married life, without having any children. Nevertheless they vowed that, should the Lord happen to give them offspring, they would deliver it to the service of the Lord; on which account also they used to visit the temple of the Lord at each of the feasts during the year.

I read it at age 19 for the first time.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 08, 2003.

Hi Elpidio.

Your previous entry sounds a lot like:

The Lost Books of the Bible.

The Gospel of the Birth Of Mary.

Chapter I.

1"The blesses and ever glorious Virgin Mary, sprung from the royal race and family of David, was born in the city of Nazareth, and educated at Jerusalem, in the temple of the Lord.

2 Her father's name was Joachim, and her mother's Anna. Galilee and the city of Nazareth. The family of her mother was of Bethlemhem.

3 Their lives were plain and right in the sight of the Lord, pious and faultless before men. For they divided all their substance into three parts:

4 One of which they devoted to the temple and officers of the temple; another they distributed among strangers, and persons in poor circumstances; and the third they reserved for themselves and the uses of their own family."

(and so on...)

These scriptures were rejected. I don't know why.

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2003.

Ok...I know why, now.

Careful, Elpidio. If I'm right about where you are headed with this, let me advise you that the idea of Mary being deity is walking on very thin ice or, rather, a high wire act suspended over a den of .....well, you know.

The Immaculate Conception of Mary? Yikes!

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Gene and Elpidio.

Elpidio, you wrote:
"Joachim is the man mentioned in the banned protoevangelium of James and of the the Book of Mary."

This is not an accurate statement. The "Protoevangelium of James" is not a "banned" book. Instead, it is a very early Christian book that was judged by the Church not to be divinely inspired (and thus not placed in the Bible). Far from being "banned," it is the Church's source of the names of the parents of Mary, Joachim and Ann, the names by which they are honored on a day of memorial on the Church's liturgical calendar. "Banned" indeed! {_8^D

In my last two messages, I wrote, trying to stick to the facts that we know:
"Mary may or may not have been descended from Levi (priestly class) through both parents -- or perhaps only through one, with the other parent being descended from Judah. (Either way, though, it doesn't matter ...) ... Joseph adopted Jesus, making him legally a member of the tribe of Judah -- if he was not already one through his mother Mary."

Gene, immediately after these last words, you shocked me by writing [with my emphasis added]:
"Jesus is in fact descended in blood through His mother from David the King."

Gene, I do respect your devotion to Ven. Emmerich, and I have nothing bad to say about her or her writings. However, since they are private revelations, I don't believe that we are permitted, in the context of apologetics, to propose her statements with the phrase, "in fact." They are not established "facts."

I have read the Catholic Encyclopedia articles about Sts. Joachim and Anne. Neither of them states that we have a teaching from Scripture or Apostolic Tradition that either of these two saints was descended from Judah. Thus, for the purposes of apologetics, we have to say, "in fact," that Mary's ancestry is unknown.

Luke 3 says: "Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, ... the son of Perez, the son of Judah ..."
Ven. Emmerich is not the only Catholic in history to suggest that Mary was descended from Judah. One of the encyclopedia articles mentions the fact that someone proposed a theory that St. Luke was giving a genealogy from Mary backward to Adam, not a genealogy from Joseph backward to Adam -- despite the seemingly clear wording I quoted from Luke 3 above. Here is how the creative idea was justified:

1. Heli, the direct descendant of Judah, is allegedly the same person as Joachim (father of Mary). This is based on "Heli" allegedly being short for "(H)eliachim," which is supposedly an alternate form of "Joachim." Well, we see the "achim" within both names, but what about "(H)eli" and "Jo"? I think that the equating of these seemingly different names comes from taking the particle "El" (God) as a substitute for the particle "Jo" (from "Yah", part of God's sacred name).

2. Heli/Joachim, father of Mary, allegedly can be called the "father" of Joseph, because he was the latter's "father(-in-law)."

I was not surprised to read the Encyclopedia's evaluation of this old theory as "very doubtful."

In summary, I would express two opinions:
(a) that it is possible, but not likely, that Mary was directly descended from Judah, and
(b) that there is no shame or "second-class" status involved in Jesus becoming a descendant of Judah through his adoption by St. Joseph.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 08, 2003.

To put a cap on this, let me say:

You arrived ahead of me, John (my wife was on the computer) and I was late to inform Elpidio about his error, RE: a banned book.

Once or twice before this I indicated the fact (FACT) that many books --before the Council's Canon was finalized for our New Testament-- were considered holy and/or trustworthy in the ancient Church. Possibly not inspired purely by the Holy Spirit, but part of our Church's early tradition anyway.

In being judged inferior to the truly essential and inspired writings of the New Testament , they were not simply discredited, Much less banned. --Many great truths may be gleaned from within these ancient texts; except that for varying reasons, they've been found wanting in positively certain inspiration. As well as many spurious accounts which contained clearly absurd myths.

We can surmise that contained in some are true revelations that fall very short of critical to Christ's Holy Gospel, but nevertheless contain information of value. This of no interest at all to unbelievers; to Catholics, it may well be.

Whatever the case; Emmerich was not reading these accounts. She purportedly witnessed them.

I'm not so naive as to post the word of Emmerich here with some imprimatur of my own. I just happen to believe she told the truth.

We certainly concede beforehand what decisions may come from the Catholic Church regarding Emmerich's credibility eventually. It happens TODAY that in the question of Mary's descent from David this sheds some light not clear in the gospels. Let's face it. There are a great many controversial matters not resolved by the Holy Bible. This is only one.

I take it personally because of the subject: Mary as the mother of Our Redeemer. I react strongly when she is demeaned. --She is not fair game whenever the unfaithful enter our forum. Whatever challenges her challenges me. I think I speak for every faithful Catholic.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 09, 2003.

I take it personally because of the subject: Mary as the mother of Our Redeemer. I react strongly when she is demeaned. -- She is not fair game whenever the unfaithful enter our forum. Whatever challenges her challenges me. I think I speak for every faithful Catholic. [E.C.C]

You surely speak for me.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.

Thanks Rod. That's the Book I read. Some people don't realize why these books were omitted. I knew about some of these things from my grandmother. I was raised by her. She had this book with many prayers. Very old one. I think was 1931. My sister has it now. She made me pray for over 30 minutes the long vesion of the rosary. Her only explanation was that was the only way for God to hear our prayers. I confronted grandma on the fact that this information she had did not come from accepted books. Her reply: that's what I was told.

At least we agreed on two things John G: 1) We cannot with precision say to which tribe(s) Mary belonged 2) The Protoevangelium was not an accepted book. A complete list of books accepted and not accepted is < a href="http://www.tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm"> here

As to you Eugene, I know what bothers you about Mary. Even John says Joseph is his father. As understood by those who knew Jesus. John 6: 42 and they said, `Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we have known?

This bothers me, thre were those that Jesus a bastard. This made Mary a....( John 8: 41 ye do the works of your father.' They said, therefore, to him, `We of whoredom have not been born; one Father we have -- God;'). That is why for me, Jesu is truly the son of Joseph in the flesh. As understood my Jews in the 1st century regarding the Christ: John 7 41 others said, `This is the Christ;' and others said, `Why, out of Galilee doth the Christ come? 42 Did not the Writing say, that out of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem -- the village where David was -- the Christ doth come?'

So you see Eugene, I cannot call Jesus a bastard.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 09, 2003.

What a convoluted and unnecessary post, Elpidio.

You ought to be ashamed.

You present absolutely no scriptural evidence; these verses have no bearing on the Messianic descent of Our lord, nor the marital status of Joseph and Mary. You have avoided seeing Paul's clear-cut expositions of the Godhead in which Christ abides eternally. Why? Because you won't give up your foolishness. If we ever see you posting here again, and juxtaposing the words bastard and whore with those of Our Lord and His holy mother, it is cause for your expulsion from the forum. You stepped way over the line!

Hubris is your maiden name. Elpidio should be Impio--

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 09, 2003.

Ruth Ch. 4 13 And Boaz taketh Ruth, and she becometh his wife, and he goeth in unto her, and Jehovah giveth to her conception, and she beareth a son. 14 And the women say unto Naomi, `Blessed [is] Jehovah who hath not let a redeemer cease to thee to-day, and his name is proclaimed in Israel, 15 and he hath been to thee for a restorer of life, and for a nourisher of thine old age, for thy daughter-in-law who hath loved thee -- who is better to thee than seven sons -- hath borne him.' 16 And Naomi taketh the lad, and layeth him in her bosom, and is to him for a nurse; 17 and the neighbouring women give to him a name, saying, `There hath been a son born to Naomi,' and they call his name Obed; he [is] father of Jesse, father of David. 18 And these are genealogies of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron, 19 and Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminidab, 20 and Amminidab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon, 21 and Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed, 22 and Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

Isaiah 11 :: Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Isaiah 11 1 And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful. 2 Rested on him hath the Spirit of Jehovah, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and might, The spirit of knowledge and fear of Jehovah. 3 To refresh him in the fear of Jehovah, And by the sight of his eyes he judgeth not, Nor by the hearing of his ears decideth. 4 And he hath judged in righteousness the poor, And decided in uprightness for the humble of earth, And hath smitten earth with the rod of his mouth, And with the breath of his lips he putteth the wicked to death. 5 And righteousness hath been the girdle of his loins, And faithfulness -- the girdle of his reins. ......... 9 Evil they do not, nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For full hath been the earth with the knowledge of Jehovah, As the waters are covering the sea. 10 And there hath been, in that day, A root of Jesse that is standing for an ensign of peoples, Unto him do nations seek, And his rest hath been -- honour! 11 And it hath come to pass, in that day, The Lord addeth a second time his power, To get the remnant of His people that is left, From Asshur, and from Egypt, And from Pathros, and from Cush, And from Elam, and from Shinar, And from Hamath, and from isles of the sea, 12 And He hath lifted up an ensign to nations, And gathereth the driven away of Israel, And the scattered of Judah He assembleth, From the four wings of the earth. 13 And turned aside hath the envy of Ephraim, And the adversaries of Judah are cut off, Ephraim doth not envy Judah, And Judah doth not distress Ephraim. 14 And they have flown on the shoulder of the Philistines westward, Together they spoil the sons of the east, Edom and Moab sending forth their hand, And sons of Ammon obeying them.

In 1948 the Nation of Israel was born. Jews have been coming from the Soviet Union, the Arab lands, Iran, Europe, and so for. Jews today can't tell their tribe anymore. So that means Judah and Ephraim( the northern kingdom of Israel) no longer can't fight.Moab and Ammon are mostly today's Jordanians. The Edomites are the so called Palestinians.

The root of Jesse is Jesus.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 15, 2003.

Dear Forum,

It is funny, I think in a very cynical way ,that the marriage of Mary and Joseph since it was not consummated could be annulled by the Church, if both of them were still alive today and wanted to remarry.

Then, Jesus would still be legitimate but his parents would never have had a sacramental marriage.

No blasphemy or sacrilage intended, just a though.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 15, 2003.

*thought* oops.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 15, 2003.

Elpidio, David is son of Jesse. He is the ancestor of Jesus Christ according to the flesh.

The Most Blessed Virgin Mary descends from David. The Messiah is descendant of David. That alone is proof to the faithful Mary is a flower from the same root. So is Joseph; but Joseph isn't, never was the biological father of Christ. It's too bad you haven't accepted the virgin birth of Jesus, and your loss. (The truth is wasted on you.) We have it on the infallible words of the apostles; and no other authority is allowed to Christ's faithful. Mary is a virgin and mother. Joseph is her chaste spouse. Jesus has only God for His Father Almighty.

From the Father and the Son (eternally) proceeds the third Person; the Holy Spirit.

We are taught by His Church and the Holy Spirit; who can neither deceive nor be deceived. You can and do deceive, and you have BEEN deceived.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 15, 2003.

Forthe Sheperd, John 21: 15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." 18 Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!" 20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?" 22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 19, 2003.

May 18, 2003 was the Pope's 83rd birthday. This is what he said: "Yesterday afternoon I finished my 83rd year of life and started my 84th," John Paul told the crowd in a traditional address given a day after canonizations. "I am increasingly aware that the day is drawing near when I will have to present myself to God and make an accounting of my whole life."

John Paul mentioned his youth in Wadowice, Poland, his service as a bishop in Krakow and his 25-year papacy in Rome. The ailing pope has spoken more often recently about his own mortality, but has brushed aside any suggestion he should step down.

This I obtained from Yahoo news on the Pope.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 19, 2003.

Elpidio; You let four days pass and then came back with a pair of non sequiturs. You have changed the subject. I'm glad. Yes; my good wife and I observed the birthday of our Holy Father. We had some champagne and toasted his health. We remembered him at Sundays' Mass. Viva Polonia! Eviva il Papa!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 19, 2003.

Gene, you are right to say that Elp'o left for four days and came back with non sequiturs. However, you were mistaken in saying that he "changed the subject."

The whole purpose of this thread is the self-aggrandizement of Elpidio "the Prophet" Gonzalez. He is continuing the original idea, which is his prediction that the pope will die before July 1, 2003. Here is what Elpidio "Karnak" Gonzalez said earlier in this thread:

"The Pope is only making 2 more trips....( plus something else I don't want to say publicly). ... What else can I say to you? If the Pope were to die before June, you wouldn't believe either. ... I meant before the end of June ... I was never given the exact calendar day. Only a certain number of trips."
[Since then, the pope has traveled to Spain, and he plans to travel to Croatia early in June.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 20, 2003.

Yes, all of us remember. It's at the opening of the thread here, where we can't help seeing it. I'm always happy to hear the prognosis from so-called seers. Why Elpicdio should ''hear a voice'' saying ''Just two more trips,'' makes no sense to me. If it's a voice, why have dreams? If it's a dream, whose voice did he hear? It ought to be a person saying it; not only ''a voice''.

I wonder if the seer ever hears one and thinks: ''That's the devil'' --?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2003.

I understand your confusion, Eugene.

I myself got confused, too. I misinterpreted my dream. I only mentioned part of the dream.

Here is the full dream, without omissions. When I see the pope climbing the steps that lead into the airplane, I see see him turn towards the people and say goodbye. Then he gets into the airplane. Between the time he says goodbye and gets into the airplane I hear(in English): " and the Pope will make two more trips. (then in Spanish)" de cuatro." I hear people saying, el Papa va a ir a Mexico. Then I ask, (in Spanish): ¿Qué pasó con Ur? The plane with the Pope seems to go Mexico. I try to follow him to Mexico , then I lose him. After I lose him, that is when the dream about President Bush starts.

I had understood 2 more trips ( of 4)to refer to Spain and Croatia. He had already plans for Bosnia and Mongolia. ( he had one for the Phillippines last year which was cancelled).

I was praying for him when he went into Croatia and Bosnia. I even lighted a candle. Several people were arrested accused of threatening the Pope.

If instead 2 more trips of 4 is understod, then the Pope may live past October, since no trips are planned after the one in Mongolia right now.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), June 25, 2003.

I can picture the Lord saying to him, Why did you change my words in Ecclesia De Eucharistia? What can the pope say," It seemed like a good Idea at the time".

Hey I got my own bundle of dirty wash, and may not make the cut, but that won't be one of my sins.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), June 25, 2003.

Our Holy Father can change anything. As long as the Holy Spirit makes him. He didn't change the Consecration in any way. It was made plain. But our Pope forgot to consult St. Ed. That's the sin Ed never forgets. Gee, I hope the Holy Father was absolved for it. Did you hear his confession, Infallible Ed?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 25, 2003.

Jmj

Time to give up, Elpidio.
You never really fooled anyone -- except perhaps yourself.
You are either totally deluded or a huge phony. But you have been exposed. The pope has not died as you predicted. Revelatory dreams? HAH!!! Your too-spicy foods acting up on you, in truth.

Have you no self-respect at all? Coming back here, hemming and hawing and trying to fool people into believing your new line of bull (about 2 or 4 trips or some other undecipherable concoction that you tried to spell out). It's hilarious! In the distant past, I called you a Jehovah's Witless because of your Arianism. Now we see just how big a JW you really are! Beginning with their 19th-century founder, the JWs have been predicting (and then repeatedly "adjusting" their faulty predictions) of the end of the world, for more than 100 years. Now you try to pull the same stunt with respect to the pope's death. You expose yourself as the basest of all characters to post at this forum, in my opinion.

God bless you anyway -- and may he help you out of the satanic swamp, so that you can become Catholic again.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 25, 2003.

Describing the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, wherein Our Lord and Savior becomes truly present to us in the Eucharist as a "Protestantized counterfeit service" is not only sacriligeous in its own right, but is also indicative of the credibility of this entire post. Pure hogwash.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 26, 2003.

The De Angelos who trespass in our forum are lurking wolves. The sheep's covering assumed by Carlos is meant to say ''Catholic Faith'', to the unwary.

Only, wolve's breath is unmistakable, and he's panting in our faces. Panting awfully hard, and salivating all over us.

You can tell by the way he castigates the Pope. A sure sign of the devil's presence. When anti- Catholics get aggressive, they taunt us with the Virgin Mary. They hate her.

When wolves in sheep's clothing threaten the unity of the Church, they belittle or defame the Pope. This has happened many times in past ages. And the devil has even tried to have our Holy Father John Paul II assassinated in public! A sign of Satan's horrific designs for our faith. Kill the Shepherd, scatter the flock!

Carlos is just one in a long line of Pope Quitters. Pray for him, and the so-called traditionist wing of the Church. Hothouse flowers who can't stand going out into the world. It's always too cold outside, or too hot. This is their faith: ''It's cozy inside. The faith will spread just fine without going out to the nations.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 26, 2003.

Elpidio Gonzalez

The pope is still alive!

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), September 29, 2003.

Not for long, Mike.

2 trips more of 4 as the dream goes=6. Trips since April 2003: 1) Spain, 2)croatia, 3)slovenia, 4)Bosnia, 5? Mongolia (cancelled), 6) Slovakia (5 if Mongolia doesn't count). In my dream he was trying to go to Mexico. That's when I lost track of him in my dream. Only date I can think of is December 12, 2003, the celebration of La Virgen de Guadalupe.

The Pope may probably not see 2004. In a dream in July 2003 I heard the words: "Habemus Papa." This means a new Pope. Most likely Angelo Sodano.

My mother's dream is already half fulfilled. It is her second time close to death.

The President is already going trhrough bad times (Third dream).

These three dreams were somehow connected.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), October 03, 2003.

Sorry, Mike.

I made the wrong count of trips 1) Spain, 2) Croatia, 3) Bosnia, 4) Mongolia? Cancelled 5(or 4) Slovakia, 6( or 5) Pompei on October 7, and 6(or that's it) Poland ? or Mexico? before 2004.

I my dream he was trying to go to Mexico.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), October 03, 2003.

Hi Elpidio.

Any flames?

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 03, 2003.

In my dream Mike I asked the voice, what happened to Ur.

see Pope JPII

5. It is in this spirit, God willing, that I intend on the occasion of the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000 to follow the traces of the history of salvation in the land in which it took place.

The starting-point will be certain key places of the Old Testament. In this way I wish to express the Church's awareness of her irrevocable links with the ancient people of the Covenant. For us too Abraham is our “father in faith” par excellence (cf. Rom 4; Gal 3:6- 9; Heb 11:8-19). In the Gospel of John we read the words which one day Christ said of him: “Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad” (8:56).

The first stage of the journey which I hope to make is linked to Abraham. In fact, if it be God's will, I would like to go to Ur of the Chaldees, the present-day Tell el-Muqayyar in southern Iraq, the city where, according to the biblical account, Abraham heard the word of the Lord which took him away from his own land, from his people, from himself in a sense, to make him the instrument of a plan of salvation which embraced the future people of the Covenant and indeed all the peoples of the world: “The Lord said to Abram, 'Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. ... By you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves'” (Gn 12:1- 3). With these words, the great journey of the People of God began. It is not only those who boast physical descent from him who look to Abraham, but also all those, and they are countless, who regard themselves as his “spiritual” offspring, because they share his faith and unreserved abandonment to the saving initiative of the Almighty.

May Yahweh have Mercy on his spirit.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), October 03, 2003.

See yiour e-mail Rod.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), October 03, 2003.

Please Elpidio: How can you ''express the Church's awareness'' of anything? You abandoned the Church. You can make sixty trips to anyplace; but nothing you say or do can express the Holy Catholic Church.

As for your dream: the world wasn't waiting for that dream. It means little or nothing. It's your self-absorption, a delusion.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 03, 2003.

Amen, Gene.

The poor dreamer was totally discredited and (appropriately) left the forum. I just wish that Mike H hadn't tempted him to come back.

Elpo's second blunder is in the opening post of this thread, and there's no trick he can use to undo it. He wrote (in April):
"The Pope is only making 2 more trips." [The pope has made several trips since then.]
Elpo's first blunder was in another thread, where he predicted that the pope would die before the end of June, 2003.
Let us pray for Elpo's reversion to Catholicism, returning from Arianism.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), October 04, 2003.

This response goes to the two man who are a little much of there rocker. They think that dream of the Pope is crarzy. Well if I would dream of the pope I be in heaven because look at his age and he is still traveling to take the word of God and spread his blessing to the people I think when God made he made the most wonderfull man in the world. If you are against cathlolic because of our belives than belive in what you want because as a catholic all life I would not change it for any thing. I belive in God and Jesus and the pope is a person who is here as a intermator of the word of God. Who was guild by God to show us to love one another. I like to end by saying you need no religion but One thing you do need that GOD Remenber his is the way to Heaven Becky Cisneros

-- Becky Cisneros (suziebuzie@aol.com), December 11, 2003.

Let Us Pray... John, What you mean "us", paleface?

-- Geta Life (inapigs@eye.com), December 13, 2003.

He must mean Catholics, Eugene.

-- Mimimimi (Have@Life.com), December 14, 2003.

just like to answerto the person who is to say it was wrong to make Juan Diego a saint well you must not belive in God either. They made him a saint because of the message he gave to the artbishop of the mother of Jesus and how did those rose grow in the winter aand in place where they could grow. well really if you belive in a tree your pray you pray will be answer. Another thing is there is ONLY ONE GOD for all relgion oh before I forget what you say that virgin picture was paint well maybe but remenber it also appeared in the tilma just the way she want it. Oh ans smarty pants how do you know what God look like. In the bible they disscribe how he looks. I been a catholic all my life and will not change it for anyone I belive in God and that all need. Becky Cisneros

-- Becky Cisneros (suziebuzie@aol.com), December 27, 2003.

just like to answer to the person who is to say it was wrong to make Juan Diego a saint well you must not belive in God either. They made him a saint because of the message he gave to the artbishop of the mother of Jesus and how did those rose grow in the winter and in place where they could grow. well really if you belive in a tree your pray you pray will be answer. Another thing is there is ONLY ONE GOD for all relgion oh before I forget what you say that virgin picture was paint well maybe but remenber it also appeared in the tilma just the way she want it. Oh ans smarty pants how do you know what God look like. In the bible they disscribe how he looks. I been a catholic all my life and will not change it for anyone I belive in God and that all need. Becky Cisneros

-- Becky Cisneros (suziebuzie@aol.com), December 27, 2003.

well I think that the person who made this web site is not a catholic due to he dumb question he ask.If he really had a dream about the pope he would have gone to the priest and the people. Who only talk as crazy as him who asks. Well please get a griped on your self.Why on earth would you dream of Bush? He already shown his colors He runs. He also belive in war not peace. Well dream about mother is a little silly. Go buy a dream book and find out what it means to have this and many other dreams.Two more trip for the pope yeah right. He live and make as many trip as God want him to. Go back to dream land and have a dream of prosberity you have in your life. This is what I reconmend to you and all those other people who are like you. I am a catholic all my 81 years of life and will died a catholic. For those who don't belive in saint or in God. Pleasestart asking for forgiveness. Remenber there is only Ony God for all. Mary Lou

-- Mary Lou Lopez (malo1654@msn.com), January 14, 2004.

To Becky Cisneros

Believing in Juan Diego is not the same as believing in God.

There are two things that go against him being canonized:

(This coming from someone who portrayed Juan Diego in his younger years during December 12. By the way my great-grandfather was a Nahuatl speaking Caxcan Indian from Zacatecas).

First: Around 1527 a baptized Indian by the name of Marcos was accused of cuncubinage (having 2 or more women).

Marcos is mentioned by father Fray Bernardino de Sahagun as the painter of the image in one of his 13 of his history of New Spain around 1555 . He says the image was placed in El Cerro del Tepeyac where the Aztex indians worshipped their godess Tonantzin.

Second: Most of the evidence on Juan Diego appears until 1663 when the Nican Mopohua (in Nahuatl starts circulating). It is believed Don Antonio Valeriano wrote it. He was related to Montezuma.

Third: It was not until the late 19th and 20th centuries that information about Juan Diego existing began to appear.

Thus, the earliest evidence shows he did not exist.

Your brother in Christ The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), January 14, 2004.

To Mary Lou Lopez

In 81 years, Mary, didn't you have dreams about people of about yourself which became true?

I know you had them.

Did you believe those dreams came from God or the devil?

Unless they were sexual in nature or kind of related dreams, you believed your dreams came from God.

I believe most of the dreams I am allowed to remember come from God usually when I hear a voice.

This began to happen at age 24.

Twice I was almost excomunicated by the priest in my parish.

I wasn't allowed to be married.

The only one I wrote about them was the Pope.

This was the first dream I ever made public.

Yes, I believe in one God, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. His name is Yahweh. It appears around 7000 times in the Hebrew scriptures.

Unfortunately, his name is translated as Lord . So is also the word Adonay which is also Lord in Hebrew. Once is translated aas I am.

Your brother in Christ

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), January 14, 2004.

Well Mr. Elpidio Gozalez, I am glad am not you who proable don't belive in saints. I belive in Juan Deigo due to I saw a peice of the tilma when the bought to my home town. Have you ever readed the story of the virgin to understand it mean. I hope that one day you read it. Remenber you can belive even in a tree and wish can come true. Becky Cisneros

-- Becky Cisneros (suziebuzie@aol.com), January 15, 2004.

Have no worry, Becky, --y no te preocupas, Marilu;
Nuestro amiguito Elpidio es Catolico; mas le falta aquel momento en cuanto huele el aliento del demonio, llegando la muerte. Elpidio como tantos mejicanos libre-pensadores mandara llamar al sacerdote; para hacer una larga confesion antes de colgar los tenis. Todo esto corriente que se tira es nomas babosada. ES CATOLICO !--!---!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 15, 2004.

Mary L.

Elpido is starved for attention! All one has to do is read his posts to see this. Its' proven that his "made up" dreams are are false. Scroll up and read how his dreams didn't work out. This Elpido doesn't believe that Jesus is God.

The Catholic Church doesn't cannonize people that never existed. This is infalliable, UNLIKE Elpido's dreams.

Maybe its time for Mr. Gonzalez to cut back on the spices in his food?

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), January 15, 2004.

Well, this has gotten off track, but I did have a dream about the Pope about 10 or so days ago. He was dressed in purple vestments, holding up the host. Instead of something from the Eucharist prayer he said,

"I believe in you, my Lord Jesus Christ."

That was it.

-- Marcia Dietrich (marciadietrich@yahoo.com), January 17, 2004.

Elpidio wants to become a modern day mystic but he won't qualify. The Catholic Church has a rich lineage of mystics throughout the milleniums, e.g., St. John of the Cross, St. Bonaventure, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Francis de Sales, St. Bernard, St. Bridget, St. Faustina, St. Gregory the Great, St. Pio, etc. The major difference between Elpidio and all these great Catholic mystics is that they all humbly submitted themselves to all the true teachings of the Catholic Church whereas Elpidio has NOT.

-- ecstacy (visions@trance.rapture), January 17, 2004.

Hi, Mr. Gonzalez

When you started this thread sir, on April 22/2002, when speaking of your dream, you said:." The Pope is only making 2 more trips..(plus something else I don't want to reveal..")

Well Mr. Gonzalez, it is now Jan. 2004, and the Pope has made more trips than I can keep track of on both hands sir. How would you explain this?

Would it be possible that you never had such "dreams"? Could it be possible that satan put these dreams(that where proven false by your own words, and dates) in your head? And made you to believe that Jesus Christ is not the God of the Universe?

Please pray to Jesus for stronger faith, Mr. Gonzalez. Life isn't easy for anyone sir, but keep your eyes fixed on the crucifix.

-- - (David@excite.com), January 18, 2004.

Just like to ask when you mr. Elpidio Gonzalez had a dream of the pope How do I know it true. I think that you want lots of attention from people around you. Hope that one day you get the attention you need. May I ask God to forgive you for making up a story like that.May you find peace with in you. May the light of the lord guild in the right direction. For in case you don't understand me Shut up. Jenny Martinez Flores

-- Jenny Martinez Flores (helen1899@aol.com), January 22, 2004.

Ecstacy, you can submit your beliefs to the Church, but cannot submit the message.

Joseph told his brothers and father that he saw the sun, moon, and stars doing obeissance to him (Greek worship, same word used in the New Testament for those who ask Jesus for miracles).

They got mad and thought he was a lunatic. They sold him. He suffered for 13 years. At the end of this period, he became the prime minister of Egypt. They did obeissance to him.See Genesis.

Eli the priest did not correct the evil his son were doing. Another young man he was raising , Samuel, had a dream where God tells him what will happen to his family. Eli didn't like it. 60 years later it came true. Most of his descendants were killed by Saul's men. A;lso, Abiathar, his descendant lost the priesthood.

Nathan was told to correct David for taking the wife of another. He told David the infant son would die and he was going to suffer. It happened.

Isaiah told King Hezekiah he was going to die. Hezekiah asked for more time. Hezekiah lived 15 more years.

Miquaih told King Ahab he was going to die. Ahab put him in prison. Ahab was killed.

Jeremiah told the king and the rest of the Jews to sumbmit to the Babylonians or lose their life. They put him in a dungeon. They were killed. They went into exile.

Agabus told Paul not to go to Jerusalem. He was going to be arrested. Paul did not listened. He was arrested and later executed.

By these example, exstacy you can see most people ignore the warnings. Until things then happen then are these people thought of as prophets from God.

I don't believe as David does that the Devil put this dream in my head back in April 2002. 2 trips de cuatro(4 in Spanish) as I had already explained before, How would you interpret that, David? I wasn't given the exact day. Somehow what happens to him it is related to what happens to the President , and what happens to my mom.

I can't believe David that you believe me so callous as to wish for my mother's death , too.

Thanks for the blessing, Jenny. May God continue to shine his light on me.

Yet, Jenny, I did not make up this story. I will not have included my mother's death with that of the Pope and the assassination attempt on the President. I love my mother so much to see her die.

Your brother in Christ The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), January 22, 2004.

Elpido,

"..I can't believe David that you believe me so callous as to wish for my Mothers death, too"

WHAT??? I never mentioned your Mom, Elpido! Scroll up and read whatI posted again! Your even sicker than I orginally thought.

I comented on your assine "made up dream" about the Pope. And how you told us that he was,"only making two more trips(and something you don't want to say publicly)"

This is a open Catholic forum, and if you want to talk about "your dreams" and can't handle it when you were proven wrong by your "own words and dates" than don't talk about them! You should keep all of your dreams private like you did with the last part of your dream when you said, "(.and something I don't want to talk about publicly.)

".Thanks for the blessing, Jenny, May God continue to shine his light on me.."

Elpido, I don't believe that God "is shining HIS light on you" You left the Catholic Church, and you don't believe that Jesus is God! You need to repent for leaving the Church that God started over 2000 years ago, friend! You need to come home, and than you might stop having these dreams (about the Pope) that are proving to be FALSE! Do you think God is putting false dreams in your head?

Relegions like your[s] are a dime a dozen.

"..Your brother in Christ"

You are not my brother in Christ until you accept Jesus Christ as your God. You were a Catholic and are a "learned" man that is a school teacher for over 20 years. You need to pray for stonger faith because there is NO excuse for you to walk away from the Catholic Church and make the "assine" statement that Jesus is not God.

May Jesus shine His light on you.

-- - (David@excite.com), January 22, 2004.

David at Excite,Did Jesus tell you personally he is God, or you believe it because others have told you so?

If Jesus told you so, I am in real trouble with regard to my salvation, but If Jesus has not told you so, how can you accuse me, then of not being a Christian?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), January 23, 2004.

Others and the Holy Spirit, Elpidio; an unbeatable combination. Why don't you relax and listen to David? He means you no harm.

God has revealed to the world the Word made flesh, His Son. He is with the Father from before all ages, and is God. Go to Paul's epistles and see for yourself. You're a well-organised information gatherer; --Or do we have to show you chapter and verse all over again?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 23, 2004.

Mr. Elipidio Gonzales,

Just like to enter you do seen like a person who would wish his mother to be died. I do pray to god for you and may he one day bring you to realize the truth about his way. I hope he lead you to the right path of his ways. I do hope that in the darkness that you are in you find light. I don't want you to be in darkness for ever. Try to look for God and ask him to show you the way. May God come to you and may he show right from wrong. I think you need to dream of god. Try to chiered your mother. While you still have her. Just like to let you know when don't have one you really know what you miss out of bless is he who has one .God bless you all. Jenny Martinez Flores

-- Jenny Martinez Flores (helen1899@aol.com), January 29, 2004.

Jenny,

I have never wished for anyone to die, not even my mother. She is my connection to the past.

My mother was the first to dream about Jesus in 1985. She was told to make a special prayer. If she did, none of us would die as long as he lived.

Everytime my mother is in danger of dying I let her know, so she can be prepared.

I know the time of year when she will be sick because just like her, I also have dreams. I inherited the dream stuff from my mother. She is as good as me.

I already dreamed Jeannie about Jesus and God Yahweh on July 23 2000. This was 15 years after my mother dreamed him.

I visit her at least once a week. I actually pray for her.

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), January 30, 2004.

Hi everyone, Just like to ask a simple question who is the person who created this site? I readed all the post some are good some are bad. I guess some people need to get in touch with God and read the bible to really know everything. Please try to find God before you ask or answer anything. When people do this they know the true about everything. God bless you all. Love your friend in God Susie Castro

-- Susie castro (littlelulu16@aol.com), February 10, 2004.

Susie, I am the one you were talking about.

Should I get in touch with God? I have.

Does it really matter to my old friends in the Catholic Church? No.

The Pope is planning another trip, this time to Austria.

in June 2004.

Wi he be able to accomplish it? Depends... If the dream I had about 2 more than 4 (planned) comes true, then 1)Spain, 2) Croatia , 3)Bosnia 4) Mongolia(cancelled) 5)Slovakia 6) Pompeii.

or if Mongolia doesn't count and if some say since Pompeii is in Italy, it may not count. Yet, the Vatican page counts it.

Pope's travels

Nice picture of John Paul climbing a mountain.

The mountain has the years of his pontificate. It reminds me of the vision of Fatima about the Pope climbing a mountain with a cross at the top.

Maybe he has reached the top of the mountain. Someone is close to meeting his maker.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), March 05, 2004.

Here is Fatimah's Third Secret.

VATICAN CITY, JUN 26, 2000 (VIS) - Given below is the complete translation of the original Portuguese text of the third part of the secret of Fatima, revealed to the three shepherd children at Cova da Iria-Fatima on July 13, 1917, and committed to paper by Sr. Lucia on January 3, 1944:

"I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."

The Pope claims Fatima's apparition had to do with being saved by an assassins bullet in 1981. Pope and Fatima

The Christian Yahwist The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), March 05, 2004.

And your point is?

-- Hugh (Hugh@inspired.com), March 05, 2004.

One point Hugh is that the Pope and his people believe in certain prophecies: Like those Fatima. He believes he is the one.

Also, he believes about those of Don (John) Bosco about the Eucharist.

He also believes about those 2of his predecesors had a bout the Church. One was Pius X, the other, the one who wrote the prayer to St. Michael.

The second point you must deduce it yourself.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egozalez@srla.org), March 05, 2004.

Elpidio,

Until you get out of Arianism, it's really hard to take you seriously. Right now, you sound like a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

-- (Get_out_of_@rian.ism), March 05, 2004.

I like to know who has seen God? Who all sent him to his death? Well if you think you know. Just don't blame anyone but your self. For it was all of us. Remenber he died for us to save us. I think we don't apperated him at all for look at all we do wrong each day. We always say we will do better tommorrow that to day but we don't.may the light of God shine upon us. God please lead us in the right path. love in God Tommy Wommy

-- Tommy Whommy (thm.123@msn.com), March 24, 2004.

Tommy, if you mean Jesus, the son, I have , once I saw, twice I heard him.(2000,2002). If you mean God the Father, twice (in 2000).

But don't take my word for it. I am not a Roman Catholic.

I am a Christian Yahwist

The Man of yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

Dear Friend, If you need to belive in something than may I ask you to belive in hise gives you royal himmaest 666 he is the way to live give you power and more. remeber 666. a friend 666

-- pasty whimmey (pasty666@aol.com), April 01, 2004.

It's official.

Pope John Paul II has ben invited to go to Mexico.

Popeto Mexico in 2004

Excerp from site:World - AP Latin America Mexico Invites Pope to October Meeting Wed Apr 21,10:44 AM ET

MEXICO CITY - The government has formally invited Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II to make a sixth visit to Mexico to attend the World Eucharistic Congress in October. Interior Secretary Santiago Creel announced the invitation during a meeting Tuesday with Mexican bishops at a retreat outside of Mexico City. He also said that the country plans to review laws on religious freedom as part of a broader move to strengthen human rights.

The World Eucharistic Congress, held every four years, is a massive gathering in which Catholics celebrate their faith and unity. The most recent one was held in Rome.

Creel said that Mexico would receive the pope "with great happiness, as a government, if the Holy Father makes the decision to come to our country." Creel's office distributed a text of his remarks late Tuesday.

Papal Nuncio Giuseppe Bertellosaod last year that the pope might attend the Congress in the north-central city of Guadalajara, to be held Oct. 10-17, despite health problems including Parkinson's disease (news - web sites) that have forced the pontiff to trim his agenda. My dream ended when the Pope was plannig to go to Mexico. It's was almost a year ago.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 21, 2004.

so elpidio, if the pope survives past this trip, will you finally forego your idea that you are a prophet? or are you going to say that two and four makes twelve and continue this dream?

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 22, 2004.

Good question Paul H.

I would look so stupid.

What helps the Pope a lot, Paul H, is that he is a man of great faith. His strong faith allows him to endure all of his pain and suffering right now.

That is why he has been able to go on since 1998, the first time his life was in jeopardy.

Also in 2002.

But what if were true?

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 22, 2004.

if it were true? i would be interested by the occurance. the fact that you had to change your prediction would keep it from being a definitive proof, but it would still be interesting.

now, question: does your prediction (i won't call it prophecy, sorry) state that you think the pope will die before or after this trip? this is an important detail.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 23, 2004.

Well, Paul H.

if 2 more than 4(planned) is 6 this leaves 4 possibilities.

A) 4-Spain, Croatia, Slovenia, Mongolia (anceled) and 2-Slovakia and Pompei

B) 4- Spain, Croatia, Slovenia, (drop Mongolia since it was cancelled) Slovakia and 2) Pompei and Austria in June 2004

C) 4-Spain, Croatia, Slovenia,(drop Mongolia) Slovakia and 2-(Drop Pompei since it is in Italy) Austria in June 2004 and Luordes in 2004.

D) 4-Spain , Croatia, Slovenia, (Drop Mongolia), Slovakia and 2-(Drop Pompeii)Austria June 2004 (Drop Lourdes for being only a city in France) and Mexico October 2004.

I go with A, B, Or C, leaving us something before November 2004.

D stretches it, but is not impossible. So this could happen before 2004 is over.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 23, 2004.

Paul H.

The Pope plans to visit Lourdes around August 15, 2004

Visit to Lourdes

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 23, 2004.

Just like to ask if any saw what happen to the pope just now with his sickness I think the people up there are stupid by make him work so much with his age he should rest take it easy he need to retired at let some one eles at that job. I love him dearly and care a lot about him for all he is done for us and showed us how great the love of God is to all of us. May God help him live more year to come. May God always be with him.

Cynthia Diaz

-- cynthia diaz (cin999@yahoo mail.com), February 13, 2005.

The decision is his. No-one is forcing him to remain in office.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 13, 2005.

It is called Tradition, Paul M.

But traditions can be changed. He just doesn't want to do it.

For me, Popes should retire at age 80 if still healthy or before that if their physical condtion does not allow them to continue in their normal functions.

The Christian Yahwist

PS: Cynthia Diaz, let's hope the next one is more open to reform the Church. Make celibacy in the priesthood optional, replace young boys from the altar with married men,....

He will survive this month. Even maybe next month....but his time is up. My mother could die in either May or June. She was somehow connected to him and President Bush from my dreams of April 23, 2003 and July 4, 2004.

May Yahweh have mercy on his Spirit.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 14, 2005.

Please spare us your dreams. You apparently have free rein to post them on the Ask Jesus forum, but they have nothing to do with the subject matter of this forum.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 14, 2005.

HA HA! Elpidio wasn' kidding. he gets flashes in a dream every time his mother scolds him. ''Just for that, YOU DIE, Mama!''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 14, 2005.

Elpidio,

You've been saying that the Pope was going to die, based on your dream, since spring of 2003 (2 YEARS AGO!!!). At first he wasn't supposed to make it past July, 2003. Then definitely by the end of the year. Oops, a new interpretation of your own dream seemed to extend it, but definitely NOT past the end of 2004 . . . and here we are in Feb, 2005.

So the $64,000 question is . . . when will you finally admit that your "dream" was wrong?

Or should we continue in our collective assumption that you are either mentally ill or lying? What other choice do we have?

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 14, 2005.