*sigh*

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 21, 2003

Answers

zzzzzzzzzz

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 21, 2003.

Hi Emerald. I know you are not waiting for me. Is it Eugene, John G.? or someone else?

It is amazing how we define truth. To me who sees himself more like a quartodeciman Catholic of the Pauline/ebionite type, people are too far away from 1st century Chistianity.

I wonder how people felt after the First council (at Jerusalem) around 50 AD. It didn't make the ebionites (the party of James the bother of the Lord ) happy. Neither it made Paul's no-circumcision for gentiles party happy. The split soon occurred after their death.

By the first ecumenical council at Nicea, the Arrians felt betrayed by the emperor. The Catholics won. They had the visigoths to help them spread their ideas.

The council of Ephesus and later Chalcedon broke the Church into Catholics, Nestorians and Monophosites.

The first vatican Council introduced the Dogma of Papal infallibility. The German Catholics left.

Vatican II introduced the vernacular. Latin was out. Lefebre's people left.

Everytime there is a change in the Church, there is always schism. Those that were probably right yesterday are wrong tomorow.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 21, 2003.

Took 2000 years to get it all right and just 4 to mess it all up again

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

What bishop or priest or layperson in his right mind would associate, to any degree whatever, to the invalid Novus Ordo "mess," "unsacraments," and "faith" that doesn't even accept Our Lord Jesus Christ as the Messias? What bishop or priest or layperson can have anything to do with a pope who is utterly incompetent even to stop his Novus Ordo presbyters from fornicating their way around the country and the world, with the tacit approval, or active involvement, of all the hierarchy?

The pope's own inaction in this regard is reprehensible. The documentary evidence indicates that the pope himself, at least through his direct reports at the New Vatican, was involved in the Novus Ordo "paederasty shuffle." Isn't this the kind of situation in which Our Lord said that such people should be dropped to the bottom of the sea with a millstone around their neck? Isn't this the kind of situation that caused St. John Chrysostom to say that the floor of Hell is littered with the skulls of bishops?

-- Ed Richards (loza@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Excuse me Ed

"Are you really sure that's what Jesus wants from you? You just don't seem like a very happy person? Maybe you should try a different line of work.

-- Pablo P. (pickett@senttax.com), April 21, 2003.

Er, guys? That's not what Emerald has been so valiantly fighting sleep waiting for.

Nice try, though.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 21, 2003.

The Novus Ordo is not invalid. There was a council. You may not agree with it, Ed, but it was a council. So speaking on the terms of The Roman catholic Church, the decxision is final.

Think about it, Ed. You accept all the other council decisions. What makes you not accept this one, Vatican II? It is deplorable how many priests got involved with young children. Don't forget the Church at one time had armies. Pope Pius XII kept silent about Hitler's genocide. In my case I reject many of the council decisions from Nicea to Vatican II. Some I accept. To me the use of the vernacular is not a problem. Jesus spoke Aramaic. he also read hebrew. Probably knew some Greek. Latin was not his mother tongue.

In my own personal life I got to experience the old and the new. I like both. I like the music of the old traditional chants in Latin. I felt in heaven. I also like the mundane vernacular songs.

Life is that way, Ed. It is always changing. One day Abraham worshipped the moon God. Next time he worships God as El Shaddai. Later, Moses worships God as Yahweh. He has to kill people to force the worship of Yahweh. Then people worship Baal. Then King david returns to Yahweh worship. Then back to Baal worship. Even Elijah tries to return to Yahweh worship by killing baal priests in Northern Kingdom. Then later during Zechariah and Josiah back to Yahweh in southern Kingdom. Later back to Baal. After exile back to Yahweh but without saying his name.

Then come the Way, the followers of Jesus. They divide into Ebionites ( who believe Jesus is human) and catholics ( who believe Jesus is divine). The loser always gets wiped out. A few survive like the Jacobites of Syria, the former nestorians of Iraq, the Armenians, Coppts, Waldenses, in smaller numbers. Gone are the Arrians, Gnostics, ... Only the large separations remain: the Orthox and the Protestants. Together they represent about 75% of the Roman Catholic Church. Not bad., considering that they mostly were confined to germany, Sweden, Norway, The Nederlands, finland, switzerland, and Denmark.

I expect another schism after John Paul II leaves the land of the living. People who start as conservatives end up liberals. Those liberals may turn conservative or become more liberal.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 21, 2003.

The progressives of the church really no longer have a leg to stand on. Simpily put, mixing secular humanism and Christianty hasnt worked, it have proved close to fatal to the mainline Protestant denominations, the the church in northren Europe has mass attendence rates in the single digits.

LIke Arianism, I expect the heresies of modernism to fade away after another generation.

-- John B (rftech10@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

John B, did you get to experience the Church before the changes were implemented after vatican II?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 22, 2003.

Nope, I grew up in the aftermath, and I saw its effects. What I do know is I had no clue what the Eucharist was untill I started to listen to EWTN radio, I had no clue about church teachings and traditionas, and I am the only one left standing so to speak, of my immediate familay and friends who still is a active Catholics. Evereyone else either are lasped, agnostic or Evangelicals.

-- John B (rftech10@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Evereyone else either are lasped, agnostic or Evangelicals.

Well, you're definitely not alone there. Funny thing is, when I first discovered the Traditional Catholic Faith, even my relatives & friends who had not seen the inside of a church for YEARS had opinions about what I was dong!

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 22, 2003.

You know what I don't get John B and Jake? Changes were made to attract more people to Church services during vatican II. It is the older people who grew before vatican II which I still see attending Church in aregular manner. The young generation for whom the changes were made leaves the Church or only attends on special ocassions.

I have found more knowledgable Catholics in this forum, no matter what group they are: SSPX, Charismatic, Traditional, Novus Ordo, seminarians,... than when I tried to have bible studies in Church in the 1980s. some relatives of mine are joining the Apostolic Church because it looks more traditional.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 22, 2003.

Elpedio, You think only older folks go to the latin mass? Take my word for it or not, the Church is crowded with young families, lots of crying babies, {there is a crying room for them}, ahd 6 year olds dressed in litle blue suits, genuflecting all over the place. No, it is not at all for old timers who are nostalgic. These young folks are having 4 or 5 kids per family.. How about the N.O. birth rate?

-- Ed Richards (lozt@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

I am a very happy person. Why shouldn't I be. I have the true mass, true sacraments, valid priests, and friends who live the Catholic life the way it should be lived.. If I am unhappy about anything, it is seeing, good and sincere people being duped. That's what this is all about.

-- Ed Richards (loz@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

In short, The Wanderer now defends a version of Catholicism that the pre-conciliar Popes would have regarded as nothing short of a nightmare, including papal prayer meetings with animal-sacrificing witch-doctors to "pray for peace" in the convent of Saint Francis of Assisi. It was inevitable that the logic of The Wanderer's chosen position-----to defend a moderate Menshevik form of the post- conciliar revolution-----would lead it to denounce those who have consistently opposed the revolution in any form. That is, The Wanderer's position has led it to denounce Roman Catholic traditionalists. For if traditionalists are seen to be right in their opposition to the post-conciliar "reforms" and capitulations, then The Wanderer must be seen -----and, indeed, increasingly is seen----- to be complicit in what Paul VI rightly called the "auto-demolition" of the Church.

-- Ed Richards (loza@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Hey Ed, Jake and Emerald

if youve got a bit of time spare yuo could do worse than print of this paper to read on "The Catholic Center" by Richard John Neuhaus. I thought it was very well written and Id be intrested in yours or anyone elses opinons on his approach to the divisions in the church.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0304/catholic-center.html

Blessings

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 22, 2003.

Elpido time for more generalistions from me but I dont agree with you about todays young Catholics.I think we are far more orthodox than the baby boomer generation and reject the abuses of Vatican II that have occured. In the document above Neuhas echos my own thoughts exactly when he says...

"The Grandchildren of the Revolution It is no secret that the initiative today is with the center. For younger clergy and seminarians, the so–called bad old days are the olden days that their grandparents talked about. They are inspired by John Paul II, the only pope they have ever known, as are the many renewal movements that feed into and draw from the millions of young people gathered by, for instance, the World Youth Days. Chancel dancers in leotards and Clown Masses are increasingly a thing of the past. The silly season is almost over, although elements of the discontinuant right find it useful to generate outrage by pretending that it is still in full swing. For its annual trips down the memory lane of radicalisms past, Call to Action will soon be convening in Florida. True, what passes for theology in many nominally Catholic colleges is a tiresome deconstruction of orthodoxy, but that, I expect, leads many students to want to explore an orthodoxy that they never learned and is deemed worthy of such intense attack. In Washington, D.C., in New York, in Boston, and elsewhere, there are growing and vibrant networks of young professionals excited about being Catholic. Many are discerning a vocation to the priesthood or religious life. In the marvelous phrase of Archbishop Timothy Dolan of Milwaukee, young people will give their lives for a mystery but not for a question mark. By way of sharpest contrast, the discontinuant left is dying because there is no successor generation. It cannot replicate the bad old days, which to protest is its only reason for being."

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 22, 2003.

I am surprised to find that many young people in your congregation, Ed Richards. A question: Who is The Wanderer ?

Here in Los angeles Kiwi i have seen young people join the charismatic movement since the late 1980s. I usually have a hard time with charismatics. I joined them at one time.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 22, 2003.

Id be intrested in yours or anyone elses opinons on his approach to the divisions in the church.

Thanks for the url, Kiwi. I read the article, and I can appreciate some of the author's points, but I think while he attempts to deliniate what divides Catholics, he stops short of offering a remedy.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 22, 2003.

Elpidio, The Wanderer is a "so called" conservative Catholic newspaper.

-- Ed Richards (loz@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Thanks, Ed. I was thinking it referred to someone else.

-- elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 22, 2003.

Thanks for taking the time Jake, it helped me understand things anyway. It is good to see the old warhorse back eh hes firing on all cylinders.

oh and.. Be not Afraid ! ;-)

see ya

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.

It is good to see the old warhorse back eh hes firing on all cylinders.

Thanks.

Kiwi, would you be happy if me, Regina, Ed, Emerald, & Isabel left the forum, voluntarily or otherwise? I ask you because you're probably the furthest from us on the issues (not to mention just plain ol' distance). I'm interested in what you have to say about it. Feel free to email if you don't want to say anything "out loud." Just don't forget to remove the "REMOVE."

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 23, 2003.

It would be one way to end my waiting period, huh?

And I thought the California gun purchasing laws were too strict. Wow.

Arguments don't defeat errors; people do...

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 24, 2003.

Still waiting for someone to explain the basis for true assent to the ordinary and supreme magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.

There is a true assent, based on true principles of Faith and doctrine.

What I want someone to do is to explain to me the basis for this true assent to the magisterium, especially the ordinary magisterium.

Also, we all agree that the Holy Spirit guides His Church. I would like, however, for someone to explain exactly how this guidance manifests itself, and the principles upon which it is based.

Still waiting.

For starters, ordinary does not mean normal or standard; it has to do with the holy orders.

If we address this question, then we have the key to understanding the modern Catholic mindset vs. the traditionalist mindset debate.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 24, 2003.

I got it now, Emerald. Ask Paul (not Paul the deacon or little paul) the apostle. See what happened at the council of Jerusalem (book of Galatians). Someone should had told Paul to not reprove Saint Peter, the Prince of the apostles, the one with the keys to the kingdom,the one that cannot do anything wrong.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@sral.org), April 24, 2003.