My boyfriend is Seventh-Day Adventist and I am Catholic. Although we are both Christians, we want our children to be raised with one faith which will be Seventh-Day Adventist.

We want to get married in my Catholic Church and would like to have a ceremony that involves my boyfriend's pastor and my priest.

My question is: if we get married in a Catholic church, will we have to promise to raise our children Catholic? And if so, who is this promise being made too (God or the priest)?

THANKS Crista

-- Crista (cvh81@hotmail.com), April 21, 2003

Answers

If Catholicism is precious enough that you wouldn't want to give it up, why would you deprive your children of it? If Catholicism is not precious enough that you want it for your children, why would you want a Catholic wedding? You should want your children raised not just "with one faith", but with the TRUE faith. Adventism is FAR removed from traditional Christianity, the faith of the Apostles, the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the faith you claim as your own (in whatever sense you claim it). You might find a priest who is willing to participate in such a wedding (you can find a priest who will do just about anything, if you look hard enough); but there is no priest who SHOULD participate in such a wedding.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 21, 2003.

I believe leaving your faith like that is a very serious thing to do, and that is something that I pray everyday that it shouldn't happen to me. If suicide is challenging God's authority of life and his plans for us, leaving our faith like it is some kind of a ritual or a function, and raising our children away from the truth while we know it, is more serious than it could be imagined, especially for a catholic, especially if he or she knows what is being done. It hurts God more than it makes him angry, and it is not he, we ourselves are bringing the judgement upon us by these actions. If you want to do something like that so bad, please don't make the marriage in the catholic way because it is not only insulting God, but it hurts him a lot after he suffered all that pain for each and every one of us.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Oh boy, here we go again.

Crista, I am in the same situation with the same concern. I believe for a family to be closely bonded together and for a marriage to work, the couple should be under the same faith. It is possible for the marriage to work under two different faiths but if each of you disagree on something, it can cause tension on the marriage and confuse the child. I think that the important thing is that you raise your child in the faith that you both feel most comfortable in so to give your child the best Christian upbringing possible. Whether which one you decide is up to you.

As far as how you want your marriage to go, it looks like that is part of the comprimise that you two are making to try to please everyone and start your marriage off right. As far as this so called promise your supposed to make, I think it is just a promise to the church just to keep it's members. Anything else is not good enough or it's not the "true" church, blah blah blah. What's important is to keep your marriage strong and to give your children a good Christian upbringing I'm sure you can do in the Seventh-Day Adventist church as you could in a catholic church.

Good luck and God bless

-- Grant (thefowler02@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

I have asked some very specific questions on this board, and seem to be getting sermons and bias answers instead of direct answers. I was raised Catholic and NEVER questioned our beliefs. Only recently have I begun to realize that certain practises and sacraments like reconciliation,confession, and confirmation are indeed traditions and have nothing to do with the bible (yet I was raised to believe they did). To my surprise and shock, some things that the Catholic Church does is in fact considered very wrong by many Christians (ie. praying to the dead - including Mary and saints). I do not question Christianity, but rather the practises of the Catholic Church. Abraham, you make it sound as though I would be converting to a whole new religion that does not acknowledge Jesus Christ. Regardless of what I choose, I will still be a Christian and will be practising what I believe to be right.

As for getting married in the Catholic Church, it still holds some value to me as this was where my parents got married and where I attended church for 18 years. Even if I don't raise my children Catholic, I'm sure God would prefer that I got married in a church instead of no church at all.

Now back to my question that was stated in my first posting - could someone please answer it!

-- Crista (cvh81@hotmail.com), April 21, 2003.

I have asked some very specific questions on this board, and seem to be getting sermons and bias answers instead of direct answers. I was raised Catholic and NEVER questioned our beliefs. Only recently have I begun to realize that certain practises and sacraments like reconciliation,confession, and confirmation are indeed traditions and have nothing to do with the bible (yet I was raised to believe they did). To my surprise and shock, some things that the Catholic Church does is in fact considered very wrong by many Christians (ie. praying to the dead - including Mary and saints). I do not question Christianity, but rather the practises of the Catholic Church. Abraham, you make it sound as though I would be converting to a whole new religion that does not acknowledge Jesus Christ. Regardless of what I choose, I will still be a Christian and will be practising what I believe to be right.

As for getting married in the Catholic Church, it still holds some value to me as this was where my parents got married and where I attended church for 18 years. Even if I don't raise my children Catholic, I'm sure God would prefer that I got married in a church instead of no church at all.

Now back to my question that was stated in my first posting - could someone please answer it!

Crista

-- Crista (cvh81@hotmail.com), April 21, 2003.

Actually there is nothing wrong with marriying a person with a different faith as long as we are absolutely sure nothing bad will happen. In the bible it says that if the wife is faithful and the husband is not or vice versa, the unfaithful will be saved by the merits of the faithful. In that situation, this is clearly acceptable. The main problem occurs in the issue of how the offspring should be raised - under what faith. That is where the problem comes and that's why I said it is more serious than it could be imagined. I had nothing against her or her future husband. In fact, deciding a child's future who's mother is a catholic and wants to raise him/her in a different religion is a far serious thing, and I cannot stop myself from saying that because otherwise it would be a lie. Also, it also gives an insight from the question that there is no intention for the catholic mother to raise the child as a catholic. The true faith here is in doubt, so what is said in the bible about the faithful wife's merits does not apply. I cannot just say it is okay because these things are of very serious nature that we have to answer to our Lord later, and it is always better than being too late to do anything. I say give it very serious thought. If you want to raise your child as a non catholic, that means you nolonger want to be or care about being a catholic. If you are a catholic and your faith is strong, you will be in serious trouble and I don't want something like that to happen and noone would I am sure. Please give it some more serious thought. Is it because you think the adventist's faith is the truthful one you want your child to be raised in that faith? I have never heard of a sect like that but I believe that the catholic church only allows marriage between catholics/converted to catholic and undergone teachings/orthdox christians whose teachings are almost similar to ours in all the way.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Christa, please spare a little time to read in the forum on saints

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00AlHE

and on mary

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00AlIT

and please try to clarify your doubts. Without traditions and the traditional method of passing down information, we would never even have a bible today. Please try to understand instead of trying to find faults in every way. I am sure if you read the above with a will to know the truth, you will understand. Also, if the person from whom you got the idea that confession etc. and praying to saints TO PRAY FOR US is wrong, truly wants to know the truth not debate, he or she will too. Give it a little of your time and think if anything said there seems to be wrong to you, or if it is indeed right and was even practiced from the old testament period.

-- Abraham T (Lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Dear Crista,

You say "I began to realize that certain practises and sacraments like reconciliation,confession, and confirmation are indeed traditions and have nothing to do with the bible".

A: My Goodness! What a great theological mind you must have! Just imagine! The Apostles, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, the greatest Christian minds which ever existed, consistently missed these blatant contradictions in the Christian faith for 2,000 years, accepting and believing in the sacraments as a principle channel of grace, but now YOU have finally realized the truth! How can we ever thank you!? Do you have ANY idea how ABSURD that sounds? In fact, the sacraments are clearly described in the Bible - hardly a surprise since the sacraments have been central in the life of the Christian Church since the very beginning, and the Bible came out of that SAME Church. But, even if the sacraments were not described in the Bible, your Bible DOES tell you that the Church is the foundation of truth. Your Bible DOES tell you that whoever hears the Church hears the Lord. Your Bible DOES tell you that whatsoever the church binds here on earth is also bound in heaven. Your Bible DOES reveal that the earthly head of Christ's Church, and he alone, holds the keys to the Kingdom.

You further state: "To my surprise and shock, some things that the Catholic Church does is in fact considered very wrong by many Christians"

A: You are shocked to discover that a manmade church which abandoned the Church of Christ, which the Bible identifies as the foundation of truth. has wandered from the truth of the Christian faith? Nothing to be shocked about. It is completely predictable! It is precisely because of their Protests against Christian truth that these Christians are separated from the Church Jesus founded for all men, the Church where He wants them to be. You might also note that some things each of these manmade denominations does and believes is considered very wrong by other manmade denominations. There can be innumerable versions of untruth, but only one version of the Truth. These sects are locked into a system of doctrinal conflict and confusion, instead of living in the unchanging, pure truth of the Church Jesus founded.

"Regardless of what I choose, I will still be a Christian and will be practising what I believe to be right."

A: Jesus didn't say we are to practice "what we believe to be right". He said we are to live in the TRUTH. That means living by what actually IS right, not by what some manmade sect tells us is right. The Church Jesus founded is the ONLY means He provided by which we can know with certainty what is true and what is false. And PLEASE don't say the Bible is your guide. The Bible is the supposed "guide" of every single denomination, and no two of them have the same doctrinal beliefs. So much for Sola Scriptura. Is that what Jesus meant when He told His Church "the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth"??

"I'm sure God would prefer that I got married in a church instead of no church at all"

A: Actually, God would prefer that you LIVE your whole life in the Church - the Church He personally founded for you, rather than no church at all; and Adventism is dangerously close to having no church at all.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 22, 2003.

That was a great answer Paul. You have clearly explained it all, and if now Christa still wants to hold on to her statements, I could understand that she has no interest in following the truth and the faith. It is sad if someone understands why he/she is wrong and still not satisfied and wants to go the wrong way. I don't know if that situation could be solved.

-- Abraham T (Lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

I entered this message board with a fairly open mind and with the hope to get some answers. I have quickly realized that it is dominated by highly opinionated, judgamental and defensive people. There is no need for sarcasim or rudeness. Obviously the best way for me to get an objective answer is to speak directly to a priest.

-- Crista (cvh81@hotmail.com), April 22, 2003.

I am so sad that this has ended this way. If you had the patience to listen to what the links said, your confusions and your misunderstandings would have gone away as you said you have a strong faith. If you have, you would have given a small time even just to see if that clearly explains why you thought some of the teachings of the church are wrong. It seems like you don't care and it is just about how and where the marriage takes place that you are interested in. I have nothing more to say and I will not say any more. God bless you and your family.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Hi Paul. Please reply to jamro4@hotmail.com It is really shocking to see your reply. It is so far from the truth. I think you use the words "Christian" and "Catholic” interchangeable. You really need to do some research, really, especially. Read what the bible talks about death, the after life, resurrection (that’s why we have Easter), baptism, etc. If one decides to go by the bible and forget denominations, then what you have is the practice of the SDA. The word catholic means literally spreading the word of God (which is a good thing). If you visit a SDA church you would have an experience of a life time. When I first visited a Catholic church I was in shocked of how they prayed to the Virgin Mary. According to the bible, this is wrong. You are not supposed to pray to anyone except God (the holy trinity) the bible might call this blasphemy. The bible speaks about no communication with the dead. Since Mary is dead, there is no use in praying to her, this is in vain. This is not my word; it is what the bible says. I have to understand one important this and that is you have to separate what the bible says from culture, for example, the Priest is forbidden from being marrying, no female priest, etc. These are not from the bible; it is traditions started a few hundreds years ago. As a SDA, I do play card and read non-religious books, as a matter of fact I am currently seeking a degree at a university. I cant imagine that there is print information that says this nonsense. By the way the modern "Catholics" did not start the Bible. IF you had done your research correctly you would have seen that the bible began in what would be present day "Iraq". As a matter of fact the birth place of Abraham is in a city called Er, in southern Iraq. The scriptures say "by the rivers of Babylon, where we remember Zion..." is when The Jews started to make recording of the bible. I suggest that you take a university course on the contents of the bible. By the way (The Great Controversy, 338) is not the Bible. Like my mother used to say: "you don’t have to take my word for it, read the Bible". Read what the 4th commandment says....yes I know what you will say about the 10 commandments that Jesus cam and change it, but Jesus said "I did not come to change the commandments, I cam to fulfill them" But really man, don’t take my word, read the bible. As a matter of fact don take anyone's word, read it for yourself. I find it that many people who criticize the bible, has not even read a complete book of the bible. Until someone has read the entire bible, I don’t feel they have a right to criticize it. Your priest can offer some insight into this. Ask him questions. Don’t go on these ridiculous propaganda materials on the internet or written by authors who are out to make a buck. SDA, participate in "bible study" where on several days people get together and read and "study what the bible says". Like I said what could be very helpful is taking a university course on the history and contents of the bible. You might just be as surprised as I was. Rohan

-- rohan (jamro4@hotmail.com), April 22, 2003.

Hi The bible speaks of no communication of the dead? In fact he said that he is the God of the living, not the dead. The dead are indeed living the true life, which we will live too. Jesus spoke to Moses during transformation. Also, when you say "dead" you are mistaking it with calling the dead, other witch and evil practices related to necromancy. You are clearly mistaken. Again, the dead are infact living with full glory by our God's side. Praying to the saints - It is not worship or praying to them to help us. We are praying to them like this - "St whoever, please pray to God for us". These saints during their lifetime prayed for many people. Do you think they will forget or discard our request to pray for us in their full glory? You are in a lot of confusion. Please visit this thread.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00AlHE

That will clear your mind and doubts, but please do read it with a mind to know the truth, not to oppose it even if you find it that you are wrong.

These are all things what the bible says and what our common sense can understand. These are not propaganda or made up theories. I am sure Paul will help you clear your doubts. God bless and please avoid the misunderstanding and the confusion that you have, and also, when you understand the truth please share the knowledge with others who need it.

You should also understand whether attending a university or searching a website, if you look hard enough you could find anything against the universal church and if you look more hard, you could find things against the bible and if you look a little more hard, you could find things against God and so on. Actually it is very easy because of the power of satan. If there is a will NOT to debate or to oppose whatever and to understand the truth and the truth alone, all the confusions would be gone.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Hi Also, the word catholic means universal. The bible was not available in the current form because printing came after a very long time. The mesapottomian civilization and babylon (as you stated about iraq) are indeed very old, but you have to know before we divided ourselves as countries and states and divided ourseles in the "modern" state, things were different. Since you mentioned the bible, in fact, it is specified in the bible that it is after the fall of babylon due to the pride of the people, people were scattered around the planet and different languages were given as a curse to divide them.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Abraham You really need to read the bible. the saints are dead and you are nto supposed to communicate wiht the dead, which was my point. YOu can pray for anyone as you please but you must pray to GOD only. If you pray to saints it is blasphmy. If you read the bible it tells you this. Once again if you really knew that the catholic church's customs have NOTHING to do wiht the bible, then you would understnad. Ask your preist, these customs were started by men hundreads of yeras ago, not by GOD. I really suggest that you do some reasearch and maybe take a course on teh contents of the bible. Almost all of teh customs are nto acknowledged by the bible, but you wont know that until you read it. Please dont take my word for it, jsut read it and your questions my be answered. A little bit of knowledge is very dangerous, especially when it comes to your fate of your soul.

-- Rohan (Jamro4@hotmail.com), April 22, 2003.

Once again,I provided a link to the main forum which shows BIBLE VERSES to prove that you are in the middle of some confusion, but you didn't have the patience to look. Perhaps you will check those verses and see if your bible has them. Please, if you think I am totally wrong, why not just spare a little time? Just make sure you do that not to debate, as that could be done by anyone.

-- Abraham T (Lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Also remember that if not for the catholic church for preserving the knowledge passed by the apostles and the early chirstians, we would have no bible today. If you want to completely disacard the traditions, you are forgetting how people communicated and told each other and passed on what God said for generations.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Dear Rohan,

I answered, by email, the letter you sent me by email. However, I see you also posted that letter here, so I will post my response here as well:

Yes. I do use "Catholic" and "Christian" interchangeably when speaking of the early Church, for it is a historical fact that there was no Christian chuch but the Holy Catholic Church for over 1,000 years after Christ. I do not use the terms interchangeably when speaking of the situation today, as I realize there are thousands of manmade sects which have separated themselves from Christ's Church, yet who are still sincerely trying to follow Him, and I therefore do not deny them the title Christian, even though their form of Christianity is incomplete and imperfect. The word "catholic" means "universal". The early Church adopted that name before the end of the first century because Jesus had made it clear that there was to be ONE Church, teaching ONE set of doctrinal truths, and that ALL men were to belong to that ONE Church. (John 17:21; Eph 4:5) This is necessary because truth cannot exist except in unity, and truth is what sets men free.(John 8:32)

The Bible does not say we are to pray to God alone. This is your personal interpretation. The Bible forbids personal interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), and when we look at the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism it is apparent why God has forbidden it. The Bible does say that we are to WORSHIP and SERVE God alone (Matt 4:10; Luke 4:8), and the Catholic Church teaches exactly the same thing. Catholics do not worship or serve anyone but the One True God who founded our Church. Prayer and worship are not synonyms. "Pray" simply means to ask. The Bible does not say that we cannot ask other Christians to pray for us. In fact, it says that we should do so. Mary and the other saints are fellow Christians who are now living in a better place, a place where they are in an even better position to pray than they were on earth. If we can ask other earthly sinners to pray for us while they are still here on earth, then surely we can ask them to continue praying for us after they reach their eternal reward, just as we will continue to pray for our friends and family, once we are there. You say that Mary is dead, but the Bible says she is alive. (John 11:26). The Bible also does not forbid "communication with the dead", meaning of course the physically dead who are spiritually alive. The Bible does forbid necromancy and ancestor-worship, which I assume are the passages you are misinterpreting here - and so does the Church. But such practices have nothing in common with the Christian practice of asking the living saints to intercede for us before the throne of God. The Bible says they do so. (Rev 5:8)

Catholics follow the Bible, because it is our book. The Catholic Church alone compiled the Bible, deciding once and for all time which writings would be part of the Bible and which would not. This happened at Carthage in North Africa, at the end of the 4th century. Again, this is historical fact. I realize that the Jewish people wrote and preserved the Hebrew scriptures. However, it was the decision of the Catholic Church to allow those Old Testament scriptures into the Christian Bible, and also to allow each New Testament writing. Hundreds of writings from New Testament times were examined before making those selections, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, the only way you have of knowing what constitutes the canon of scripture is by the infallible decision of the Catholic Church. Since the Catholic Church compiled the Bible, it is impossible that anything in the Bible can conflict with Catholic teaching. The Church obviously would not have included conflicting writings in its book. So you see, any apparent conflicts you see are between Catholic teaching and your interpretation of the Bible. However, there are thousands of conflicting Protestant interpretations of scripture, and none of them has any real authority behind them, which is precisely why they all conflict.

You are right that the unmarried priesthood is a rule made by the Church for its own priests. Why is that a problem? Surely the Church has the right to make rules governing its own priesthood? On the other hand, the male priesthood is not a Church rule. It is a teaching of Christ, who clearly demonstrated by His example in selecting 12 out of 12 men as His first priests, that it was His divine will that only men be ordained. You keep saying that this teaching or that teaching is not in the Bible. Where did you get this tradition of trying to find everything in the Bible? It seems to me if God wanted us to do that, it would be plainly stated in the Bible. Yet the Bible says no such thing. It makes no claim to be the sole source of Christian truth. So, I must conclude that you are basing your whole approach to faith on a recent, unbiblical tradition of men.

I assure you I have already taken a course on the history and contents of the Bible - many of them, in fact. I hold a masters degree in pastoral theology, and am an ordained minister of the Church Jesus founded. A number of courses in scripture and ecclesial history were required enroute to ordination. I have also read the entire Bible more than fifteen times. Thirty years ago I started a program of reading which enables me to read through the Bible every two years at a fairly leisurely pace.

Peace! Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 22, 2003.

My understanding is that only you (as the Catholic party to the marriage) will have to promise to do everything in your power to see that the children are raised Catholic. The promise is from you to God, not just to the priest. Your boyfriend will not have to promise to raise the children Catholic, but he will be asked if he understands the seriousness of the promise that you are making. And if you were to go ahead and make this promise without really meaning it, your marriage would be invalid according to canon law.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

So Mark,

Are you saying that if she does get married in the catholic church, has a happy marriage and has kids and brings them up in any other church other than the catholic church that her marriage will be considered invalid?

-- Grant (thefowler02@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

No, the validity of a marriage depends only on factors present or absent at the time of the marriage. It does not depend on future behavior. For example:

A) Tim marries Amy, intending to be faithful to her forever, but slips and has an affair when the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Supermodel Bus stops and asks him for directions.

B) Sam marries Judy, but weeks before the wedding joins marriedbutcheating.com with a five year membership, and has a date set up the day he gets back from his honeymoon. However, due to an unfortunate smelting accident on the way to his tryst, he can never have sex again, and stays faithful to Judy for the next 20 years.

C) Roger and Suzy believe in open marriage, and even though they "promise" to be faithful to each other, they both know they don't mean it, and have already sent out orgy invitations for the weekend after their wedding.

By Church law, marriage A is valid, but marriages B and C are invalid due to partial simulation of the vow of fidelity. Simulation is when you say/promise one thing but mean/intend another, i.e. verbal agreement but mental disagreement. Marriage C points out that this makes a marriage invalid even when your future spouse knows that you are lying and is okay with it.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Grant.

You wrote: "Oh boy, here we go again. ... I think that the important thing is that you raise your child in the faith that you both feel most comfortable in so to give your child the best Christian upbringing possible. Whether which one you decide is up to you. As far as this so called promise your supposed to make, I think it is just a promise to the church just to keep it's members. Anything else is not good enough or it's not the 'true' church, blah blah blah. "

Your message shocked me in three ways, Grant:
(1) This is a Catholic forum. You are not a Catholic. You are not qualified to answer this query from a Catholic woman, Crista.
(2) You pretended to be qualified and did not identify yourself as a non-Catholic.
(3) Even though you were previously well-chastised on another thread that you started (a few weeks ago), you did not learn your lesson, but intruded on this thread and bashed the Catholic Church again.

As Mark explained, Grant, you were wrong to snidely say that Crista's promises will be "to the church just to keep its members." Her promises (which will also include a promise not to abandon her Catholic faith) are made to God through the Church. After all the Church is the Body of Christ, so a promise made in the presence of a representative of the Church is made to Christ himself.

In closing, Grant, I must ask you to choose between (1) leaving this forum, (2) lurking silently here, or (3) posting respectfully and identifying yourself as non-Catholic. If you refuse and insist on continued misbehavior, then I ask the moderator to delete your future messages.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.

John

Your message made me chuckle in three ways, John:

1)Your right, this is a catholic forum and I'm not catholic, however, she did ask a question to whoever felt compelled to answer. She did not specify who should respond to this thread.

2)In what way did I pretend to be anything. Whether I'm catholic or not isn't relevant for the answer of her question. I just gave her the best advice I could for her to have a happy marriage and children who are brought up before Christ. Besides, I have been through this before and I knew she was going to get critisized and wouldn't get a decent answer on how to go about this fairly between her and her fiance.

3)Well chastised, I would say. Crista, fellow catholics on this website told me that my soul was in danger as well as my girlfriends and that I was told to break off our relationship because of our differences. Even though I didn't learn the "lesson" that you so "thoughfully" tried to teach, the lesson that I learned was that some catholics, like yourself John, have the wool pulled so tightly over there eyes that it seems like you believe that only the catholic church will save you. It must bother you that there are some sensible catholics, like Crista, that actually analize what there doing rather than just going through the motions. John, it seems like you've been more so pulled away from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and have been more focused on critisizing people who aren't, plain and simple, catholic. Maybe you should get your priorities straight.

In Mark's first statement, he tried to analize Crista's question and gave her an answer of a situation. I felt he didn't answer question thourougly enough (which by the way one of my questions that never got answered on my thread) so I asked him to further explain in which he did. Thank you Mark. I personally think this catholic law is stupid. Lets say there is a couple wanting to get married and they truely believe that everything will last forever. So they get married and as soon as they leave the church, the church says it's valid and everyone is happy. Two years down the road, they want to get divorced but according to the church, they can't. So they make up a story, maybe like the ones above so they can get out of the marriage. Then the church accepts the excuse and they say "OK, it must not be "valid" then". Then they are granted an anullment saying that the marriage technically wasn't a marriage. To me, this sounds just like a little loop hole to get around church law and the church accepts it. It just seems very hypocritical.

In closing, John, I must ask you to choose between (1)leaving this forum until you pull the wool from your eyes and have an open mind so you can give relavant and good advice, (2) lurk here silently because your advice usually sucks, or (3) post respectfully and peacefully so you don't make so many enemies. Whether I'm catholic or not isn't relevant. Many people come here asking for advise and deserve a variety of answers so they can pick one of them and see what works. By deleting my (or anyone elses) answers, you deprive the person asking of an answer that they deserve to here. If you don't like the answer, you should probably shut up and keep it to yourself because you have no right to interfere with some elses opionon. An opionon is an opionon, let the person asking decide for themselves what to believe, don't tell them.

Sorry about all the cluttered up mess Crista, I went through the same question before. Good luck in your marriage and may God guide you down the right path.

Grant

-- Grant (thefowler02@yahoo.com), April 23, 2003.

oh, one thing I forgot

I didn't bash the church just like you said I was doing again. I am just stating my opinion of what the catholic church looks like from a non-catholic point of view. Aren't you proud of how pushy the church looks?

-- Grant (thefowler02@yahoo.com), April 23, 2003.

Hi Grant,

Out of all the responses I got, yours was the only one that wasn't judgemental, pushy, and critical. I appreciated that. Although some of the critical responses got me thinking about why I would want to get married in the Catholic Church if I don't plan to raise my children Catholic, it still hasn't changed my mind about not raising my children Catholic (mainly b/c there will be 2 people in the marriage, of which one who is not Catholic and doesn't agree with Catholicism). If anything, the responses I've gotten have made me question if it makes any sense to get married in the Catholic church and now I am leaning away from the idea. Anyways, I talked to my parish priest and he didn't give a straight answer regarding whether or not he'd marry us and we're being to consider other possibilities.

-- Crista (h@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.

Crista,

In all sincerity, let me ask you this..... You wrote:

Hi Grant, Out of all the responses I got, yours was the only one that wasn't judgemental, pushy, and critical. I appreciated that.

Or was it because his was the only answer you wanted to hear? Think about it. When we ask someone's advice or opinion, alot of times, we are looking for a certain answer, and if that is not the answer we receive, we automatically become defensive. I am the first to admit that I do this at times. (I used to be really bad about it, but I have learned to really try and take into consideration the advice that I am given.) If you can't do this, then maybe it is best not to ask. Those answers you do not like, are not in the least judgemental or critical, they are simply Church teachings. And when you ask a question, you always have to be ready to hear what you may least want to hear.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), April 23, 2003.

Isabel,

I knew my response to Grant would result in a response like yours. I expected to hear what I heard, my priest said the same thing - why get married in a Catholic church if you don't plan to raise your children Catholic. But I didn't expect to be judged and criticized nor did I expect the sarcasim. Obviously everyone has strong beliefs (which is great), but sometimes we need to question the practises of the church. Why do they exist and are they right? Are we sure that Catholicism is 'the true religion, the one faith'? Obviously we need faith, but it shouldn't be blind about it. As I've mentioned early, I've recently learned some things about the chuch that I'm not so sure about anymore. Anyways, I'm not looking for a response to this b/c it'll just start a heated debate!

-- Crista (h@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.

Well, I can tell you that the answer is at the tips of you fingers. Practically anything you want to know (including much you don't) can be found on the web. If you have questions, search Google. The establishment of the Church can be traced back to the apostles. If you are not willing to have your questions answered here, then by all means, research, study, learn for yourself. There is so much out there, so much to learn....... "Many are called, but few are chosen." It is up to you to cooperate with the grace of God.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), April 23, 2003.

Grant, you are not qualified to answer questions such as these, and you must not pretend to be Catholic. You have misled people and have planted doubts in Catholics like Crista. You will pay dearly on Judgment Day, if not sooner, for this. I can silently take all the worthless insults you care to pile on me, but I cannot silently stand by while you lead the innocent into perdition.
Thank you, Isabel, for your good advice to Crista.
Moderator, please delete Grant's posts. Thanks.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 24, 2003.

How can a mere human make statements about Judgement Day?

Who knows really who posts on these boards. You would think as a Christian (Catholic or non) that the ideas of Christianity and being charitable is universal but it is not.

It is sad.

-- Melissa (b4this@concentric.net), April 25, 2003.

John, just a couple of comments and questions: 1)What makes a person "qualified" to contribute an answer on a public forum, how am I not "qualified" and what would make you "qualified"? As far as I'm concerned, I am qualified to answer this question. She asked a question which was open to the public and seeing I am in a simular situation, that makes me very qualified to answer such a question. I answered her based off of the unbiased opinions I have gotten and want her and her fiance to have a happy, life long relationship which would be God pleasing. You and some of your catholic friends advice would more than likely only drive her relationship straight to a divorce. 2)How in the first place did I ever pretend to be catholic? I did not come out and say I was catholic so I don't understand how you say I pretended to be a catholic. I did however say that I was in a simular situation identifying one person to be a catholic and one not. But the question wasn't about indivduals, it was about how to go about this situation so the both of them could live a long happy life together. 3)So I'm going to be the one to pay dearly on Judgement Day, and I suppose your God and you make the decisions. Get real John. You don't know anything about me or my faith to God. You are in no position to claim such an awful thing. Melissa is certainly right. 4)As far as the insults, the door has swung both ways here buddy. 5)Yeah, that's exactly what my mission is John, lead everyone's soul to hell. You're so full of yourself John it's sick. All your trying to do is push everyone back to the catholic church. Let me tell you one thing, the catholic church (just like any other Earthly church) is by no means anywhere near perfect. However, I'm only trying to push everyone to the one perfect thing in this world, and that's to God himself. Maybe you should try it John, it might help. 6)If by some reason the moderator does pull my postings, I would ask him to do the same to all of John's postings. That would be the only be fair option seeing as John is the instigator in many of the other postings on this site. Thanks

-- Grant (thefowler02@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.

Jmj

Grant, I will not be responding to you (other than these few words), because I consider you are nothing but a mischief-maker, intruding here illegitimately. I don't need to respond to you further, because your comments have reached the point of being self-condemnatory. You do yourself in.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 27, 2003.

You know John, you not wanting to talk to me is the best advice I've heard from you yet!

-- Grant (aefg@adf.adf), April 29, 2003.

Crista:

Do you know much about the Seventh Day Adventists? They seem to be a cult. They were started by a "prophet" called Miller who predicted that Christ would come again in 1844. They treat their prophetess Ellen White's (crazy)writings as divinely inspired. Among other things, she usually refers to the Catholic Church as "Babylon the great, the mother of harlots". Their key practice of celebrating their services on Saturdays instead of Sundays is directly inspired by hatred of Catholicism. White preached that Sunday worship is "the mark of the Beast" (the Beast here being the Pope). David Koresh's Branch Davidians are an offshoot.

I have to say that I got this stuff from the Catholic Answers webpage at: http://www.catholic.com/library/Seventh_Day_Adventism.asp, so it's not exactly unbiased, but no doubt you can get the Adventist point of view too or read their books and tracts. But I hope that you can get married without changing your religion (unless of course you are deeply convinced by Ms. White's writings).

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), May 13, 2003.

Grant, youre an idiot.

you most certainly arent catholic, but you say, "my fellow catholics." if you arent catholic, dont claim us to be your fellow catholics.

you also claim you are qualified to answer a dogmatic question about CATHOLIC marraige... youre not. the question was not open ended. it was a question about the catholic way of life (ie, not YOUR way and hence not your question to answer)

you ascribe to a false idea. that is, that people need to find the 'right' religion for them. thats a horrible statement to make grant. you see, the idea of religion is that it changes you such that you act in accordance with Gods law. instead you would have people finding a religion which suits their needs and not the needs of God.

As well, you are openly condemning the practice of the sacraments in the Catholic Church, and claiming that catholicism is not the original church. please tell me how that isnt bashing on our church... BTW, when you talk about early churches, keep in mind that its really early church, one catholic church before the reformations. and even if the bible was first written in what is now iraq, it is irrelevant, its the same church in iraq as it is everywhere in the world today.

so grant, stop faking to be a catholic if you have no clue what youre talking about. christa, i will pray for you and your faith that you might find your way back to the sacraments which God has prescribed for you and the rest of the world.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 13, 2003.

paul, you're the real idiot!

I would like to invite to and anyone else to look at this thread and please find me any place where I used the words "my fellow catholics". There's a real easy way to do this, click on the edit tab in the tool bar, then click on the find button. This will bring a pop-up box in which you can write the words as paul has idiotically stated "my fellow catholics". Then click find next. See how many finds it comes up with..............not surprisingly you'll find just one (besides the one's I wrote in this post useing for examples), the one that paul states in his foolish post.

As for my answers, yes it is an open ended question. The question isn't about the catholic way of life, but a question of life between two close, but differing religions and how to live with each other. Most answers left by people here will cut their life long journey together short resulting in divorce. People complain about divorce rates, you guys don't help.

What I said about finding the right religion, you took way to the extreme of what I meant out of it. Since all Christians follow the word of God, than you should find a church that you believe follows God the best so that allows you to do the best at following Him. In my opinon, that's not the catholic church. (but that is my opinon and anyone who does follow the catholic church is fine by me). I would suggest taking a history class that runs from the begining of people through that time of reformation. Maybe you'll see how the world came about and how it has changed. Personally, I found out how political the catholic church became and how corrupted it was.(just think of what everyone thinks of politicians) In a nutshell, that's basically how the reformation came about along with other factors.

So paul, in no way shape or form have I ever faked being a catholic. In fact, I wouldn't want to become a catholic in the first place. So I invite you to put your money where your mouth is!

-- Grant (thefowler02@yahoo.com), May 13, 2003.

Crita entered a Catholic forum for a straight answer, and getting that, she complains about the judgmental, opinionated, sarcastic help she received.

She should have asked a Seventh Day Adventist forum instead. But she's not a Seventh Day Adventist; she merey wants her children to be; to keep the fiance.

This is called respect for the world. It is selling out the revealed truth to please a mortal, in this case an Adventist. Judas sold Jesus to His enemies, he chose between truth and falsehood. Crista sees nothing wrong about this; she is still going to ''remain a Christian''.

NOT. She will become a Seventh Day Adventist, a false sect; and drive her own children away from the True faith of the Holy Apostles.

She ought to ask her boyfiend this question; or they can both look for it in their Bibles.

Who founded the Adventists' church in the world? Which of the Apostles obeyed Christ and went out to start a 7th Day Adventist Church?

She betrays the Church that came to her by way of the Apostles, to join a false sect. She will exchange Gold for Lead. Plain & simple.

Having characters like Rohan, Grant, etc., sneak in here to offer a Catholic advice reminds us of the lawyers who angered Our Lord, in Luke 11 :52-- ''Woe to you lawyers, because you have taken away the key of knowledge; you have not entered yourselves (Rohan & Grant) and those who are entering you have hindered.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 13, 2003.

Crista, you stated that your future children will be raised with one faith which will be Seventh Day Adventist. Which tells me you will be attending a SDA church. So, why would you even want to get married in a Catholic church if that is to be the case? To answer your question, no. You don't have to promise to raise your children as Catholic. But you already have made up your mind that they won't be anyways so, it's kind of a moot point, isn't it? The part where you actually promise to raise your children as Catholics will be during their Baptism. That is the Godparents role (certainly the parents, too, but this is what the Godparents promise). To see to it that they receive the Catholic religion education and experience.

On a personal note, if you plan on remaining true to your faith, you are going to have a tough road ahead of you, Crista. My father was raised SDA and I can tell you unequivocally 99% of the SDA's you'll meet hate Catholics. I don't mean dislike or disagree with. I mean hate. Visit some of the other religious boards on the Net (like Beliefnet.com) and you'll see what I mean. In my father's own words~SDA's feel towards Catholics as whites did towards blacks in the fifties. Pretty harsh, wouldn't you say? And that's my own father, Crista. I wish you luck on your journey and hope God guides you.

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), May 13, 2003.

Grant grunts:
"paul, you're the real idiot! I would like to invite to and anyone else to look at this thread and please find me any place where I used the words 'my fellow catholics.' There's a real easy way to do this [etc.] ... not surprisingly you'll find just one (besides the one's I wrote in this post useing for examples), the one that paul states in his foolish post."

Technically, it is correct that Grant didn't grunt the three words, "my fellow Catholics." However, the spirit of what "little paul" said was valid, so he is no "idiot." What he had in mind was the following earlier grunt from Grant:

"Crista, fellow catholics on this website told me that my soul was in danger as well as my girlfriends and that I was told to break off our relationship because of our differences. ..."

Grant may not have meant it, but these words could be taken to mean that he was calling himself a catholic (with "fellow catholics" around him). What is particularly misleading is the use of the lower-case "c". A few protestants (including Lutherans) try to say that they are "catholics." I'm trying to remember if Grant said that he was a Lutheran.

God bless you, "little paul."
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.

thank you John, im glad i didnt have to clarify that. hard dealing with non catholics who think they are qualified to answer dogmatic decisions isnt it?

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 13, 2003.

Hi Crista,

I was raised SDA, but I've come to an age now where I can no longer ignore my discomfort with Ellen G. White and the way that the SDA church holds her up as a "prophet".

Anyway, your boyfriend may not know this but an Adventist pastor will not marry an Adventist to a Non-Adventist. He can lose his license doing that.

So... either your boyfriend will have to cease being an Adventist, or you'll have to become one. Since it doesn't seem that either of you plan on changing that, then you might have to look outside of using either a Catholic Priest or an Adventist Pastor.

Hope this helps.

P.S. I know this because I'm getting married in September and was told this by an Adventist Pastor. I'm no longer SDA.

-- Mr. Anderson (neo@thematrix.com), May 21, 2003.

First, I'm not catholic. Second, if this "thread" is just for Catholic’s it should be under login.

With that said, I am going to add my two-cents.

Please open your bibles and refer it to 1 Corinthians 13:4-6

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

I think somewhere in this thread you have forgotten about this. What happened to "not easily angered"? What happen to "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."?

Please, the whole idea is help each other and give sound and reasonable answers to people.

I think if Crista is a bible believing Christian, then our answers should be coming from the bible and only the bible. Not our doctrine or opinions.

Criticizing seems to be a simple thing to do in this thread and I know that we all are strong on our beliefs. But, I fail to see from the Christian’s here the love of Christ as many as you have spoken of.

This is my first time in a catholic thread and I only came here while doing a search on google and found parts of comments. Needless to say I am surprised at most of the comments here.

I think what we all need to do is take time away from the computer and spend an hour and prayer that the Holy Spirit will guide Crista into what God and only God will have her do.

As such Crista, I am going to keep you in my prayers and I will do the same for the rest of the thread group.

May the love of our Father in heaven and the soon coming of our Lord Jesus Christ give you peace in your hearts and a love for all man.

God-Bless,

Steven

P.s. I applaud the mediator for keeping all discussions on this thread.

-- Steven Cleff (kantarsmovies@hotmail.com), July 25, 2003.

Dear Steven,

You suggest: "I think if Crista is a bible believing Christian, then our answers should be coming from the bible and only the bible. Not our doctrine or opinions."

A: The problem is, trying to provide answers from the Bible and only the Bible is what caused Crista's problem in the first place. If someone hadn't abandoned the truth of Christ's Church and tried to find all their answers in the Bible alone, Crista wouldn't be an SDA. There wouldn't be any SDA church; nor would there be thousands of conflicting Protestant denominations, all claiming to have found their beliefs in the Bible alone, yet no two having the same beliefs. Why would we subject Crista to opinions generated by a system that has caused nothing but division, dissent, and doctrinal chaos for 450 years? We find our truth where Christ said we would find it, where the Bible says we will find it, in the Church of the Living God, the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Crista asked a question seeking a truthful answer, not soemone's personal guesses about what scripture might mean. And that is why we responded from doctrinal truth, not from scriptural guesswork.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 25, 2003.