I was raised a Lutheran so my understanding of Catholicism tends to be a bit biased, but I'm really curious about saints. What purpose do they serve in the Catholic church? Do you pray to them or are they just examples that are meant to inspire you?

-- a sometimey lutheran (somesaintconfusion@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003

Answers

saints are those members of the church who have led exceptionally devout lives... they died in a state of grace and they are in heaven now. in order to become a saint there are several requirements: a background check of character lasting not less than five years and two proven miracles that can be traced directly to the person. saints are respected figures in the church, not worshiped. when a catholic prays to a saint it is to ask for that saint to pray for us, much the way you would ask a friend to pray for you in a time of need, we pray to saints to pray for us in a time of need. if i havent covered anything im sure someone else will pick it up. if you have anymore questions be sure to ask

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 21, 2003.

In St Paul’s 1st letter to Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 to 6 we see him encouraging intercessions even though 2 verses later he mentions that we have only one mediator between God and men. Then what does Christ mean when He says ‘No one can go to the Father except through Him’ It is that He is the Way to the Father, He is the Door to the Father, there is no other way to the Father, no other way to salvation. Then is St Paul contradicting Christ’s teaching? In no way. He also stresses that there is only one mediator between God and man and it is Christ alone. Verse 6 clearly states the meaning that it was Christ alone who offered himself as a ransom for the forgiveness of our sins. When we pray to saints to pray for us we only ask their mediation to our only God who is one God in 3 persons, the Holy Trinity.

Following verses help understand the Catholic Church's stand on the doctrine;

1Tim 2:1-6 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

In the prayer the Lord himself taught us He himself directs our prayer directly to the Father when we pray "Our Father who art in heaven........". Here when we pray don’t we pray directly without a mediator in between.

St Paul’s letter to the Romans chapter 8:26 & 27 says "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Isn’t the Holy Spirit also then a mediator. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and so a prayer to any one of the Trinity is a prayer to the one God, the 3 persons.

In Matt 18:10 Jesus warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10). It is said in the Bible that every one of us have a guardian angel who is always in God’s presence, arent they mediating then?

So we see that asking others for mediation is not wrong but it is something which is good and acceptable in the Lord's sight (1Tim2:3)..

Then one might ask 'How will the saints hear our prayer requests or how will it reach them. One thing that certainly can be said is that those in heaven are alive to God. "Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong." (Mark 12:26-27). The saints in heaven are really more alive than we are now. In the arms of God, they are even more solicitous of us than when they were on Earth. This is proven in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us. Therefore, just as Paul asked the other disciples to pray for him (Rom. 15:30, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25), and just as he prayed for them (2 Thess. 1:11), so now we can ask Paul and the other saints in heaven to intercede for us with God. We are not cut off from our fellow Christians at death, but are brought closer. We continue in one communion--the communion of saints. Yet we know that we are to ask those on earth to intercede for us. Paul commanded Christians to pray for others (1 Tim. 2:1-4), as did Jesus (Matt. 5:44). Paul himself even requested prayer on numerous occasions (Rom. 15:30-32, Eph. 6:18-20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1). So there must be an advantage in asking others to pray for us. One benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person's based on another person's faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15-16, Mark 9:17-25, Luke 8:49-55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (James 5:16-18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God's presence, than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Something more to think about:

Even among the Catholic/orthdox christians, there are some who strongly object the idea of saints. Even though fixing this problem is most probably impossible in every way, maybe we should think why. Even some scholars and more experienced christians ridicule the idea. According to them, it is foolishness because "the Church makes the saints".

1. Who are we to question God's judgement? Are we jealous that God gives glory to those who lived in suffering, lived obeying all his commands and in pure love and holiness? The saints, as we know them now, were the poorest of all people, almost ridiculed by many in their lifetime. Isn't it such an imbalance that their perfect life be a joke? Were their lives a total waste in God's view? They humbled themselves before the whole world and for that, God raises them above all thers so that by their sufferings, many undeserving souls can be saved.

2. The church makes saints? If the proclamation of faith that we make all the time is true, we believe that God is the head of the church, controlling his representatives. If then, why say that it is not God who makes the decisions but the church? It is true that while countless people have lived as saints but only a few are known and renounced, but who are we to judge this? In the old testament we see God clearly telling us that he selects some people for special purposes, but we are not to judge his actions. Take the case of Esov and Jacob, sons of Issac. The mother betrayed Issac and the older son by cheating the blind Issac into thinking that Jacob was the older son and recieved the blessings reserved for the first born. Later we see that God does not punish them for this, for he selected Jacob for special purposes. We may think that it is not fair since they cheated, but it was God's plan. Even the older brother accepts that later. The process of making a saint is done by a lot of painsaking processes. There has been only a very few cases where the making of a saint was done quickly. St Antony - one year after his death, St Francis of Assissi - 2 years after his death (in his case, the pope decided to make him a saint soon after he died, but the cardinals objected by saying that it was way too fast). The fact that a lot of unknown saints are there, but this doesn't mean that their lives were in vain. The selected saints provide us with their intercession since they are the ones who are with God and speak to him all the time. In their lifetime they prayed for countless people, so in their glory, don't think they'll forget. After all, time and space doesn't matter to them anymore. They are with God. Also, when we remember them, we remember their lives and we learn that living a good life is nothing to be ashamed of, and that we'll be rewarded well if we live as God intends us to live.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Abraham.

The information you have provided is interesting and helpful. I wish that I could compliment you for having researched and written all it. However, I know that you did not compose an important section of it -- although many would think that you did, since you did not mention the true author's name.

Abraham, I am aware of the fact that you copied a significant part of your message from an answer by "expert" Bill Bilton on this page at the EWTN" site (or perhaps from another Internet page which had already improperly "borrowed" the answer from EWTN). I found that you had copied more than twenty lines from the Bilton answer -- the whole section from "One thing that can certainly be said" through the end of your first message.

It is not considered ethical to copy so extensively from another person's work without giving him/her credit. In fact, it is referred to as plagiarism and can be a sinful act against justice.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 22, 2003.

Thank you J.F. I used to take notes from what I read a long time ago, and wanted to share those information. I am familiar with plagiarism now. From where I came from, good people used to share what they knew and had to others. I could not specify where I got that from because I did not know. I did not even know this and the others were in a web site. A long time ago a group involving me, used to compile different data from reliable sources to prevent confusion among us. Again, sorry if I seemed like stealing credit for someone's work.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 23, 2003.

Thank you, Abraham, for this acknowledgment.
I won't trouble you about this any more. You are doing much good work here at the forum.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.