Reading of Passion Seemed Odd This Year

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How did the two men who were crucified with Jesus become "revolutionaries"? I thought they were thieves or were crucified because they were inciting riots (which you can do without being in the least interested in revolution).

Also, who was Salome? She was mentioned in the reading as well.

I put this under Bible and Sacred Tradition in the FAQ because it seems that this was some new translation or something. Thanks.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 15, 2003

Answers

Jmj
Hello, GT. Long time no chat.

I can understand why the "Passion" seemed unfamiliar to you this year. If memory serves me correctly, the "Passion" according to St. John is read each year on Good Friday. The "Passion" according to the writers of the "synoptic gospels" (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), I believe, take their turns being read on Palm Sunday, in a three-year cycle. Thus, we have not read St. Mark's "Passion" account since 2000. Besides the passage of three years making the account seem unfamiliar to you, your parish's lectionary in 2000 may have been the old one (in use since around 1970), which has now been replaced. The new lectionary contains a completely new translation of the New Testament (but not the Old Testament), so some of the words and phrasings are not yet familiar to people (who have been hearing the old ones for many years, even perhaps for all the years they have been Catholic).

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 15, 2003.


There was an organized underground movement opposing the Roman government at the time. Barabbas is identified as a member of this insurrectionist movement. Some writers are of the opinion that the two men crucified with Jesus were part of that same movement. Had Barabbas not been released, it is likely he too would have been crucified.

Salome was one of the women who was "watching from a distance" at the crucifixion of Jesus, and also one of the women who went to the tomb on Easter morning.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 15, 2003.


Oh, I forgot to refer to the specific things you mentioned, GT.

"How did the two men who were crucified with Jesus become 'revolutionaries'? I thought they were thieves or were crucified because they were inciting riots (which you can do without being in the least interested in revolution)."

The confusion is caused by the St. Mark and St. Matthew's use of a Greek word [lEstEs] that some think can be translated in more than one way -- e.g., thief/robber, revolutionary. I have always thought that the two men were probably "revolutionaries" rather than "thieves" [despite St. Dismas being called "the good thief"], because thieves would be less likely to be executed/crucified for their crime than revolutionaries. [St. Luke uses a different Greek word (kakourgos), a more general word that evildoer/malefactor/criminal.]

Compare the (bold) words chosen by the editors of what are probably the two most widely used Catholic translations of today ...

Revised Standard Version, a source of one of the three old Lectionaries:
Matthew 27:38 -- Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left.
Mark 15:27 -- And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left.
Luke 23:32/39 -- Two others also, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him. ... One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
John 19:18 -- There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them.

Revised New Testament of New American Bible, upon which the new Lectionary is based:
Matthew -- Two revolutionaries were crucified with him, one on his right and the other on his left.
----- [footnote:] "see the note on John 18:40 where the same Greek word as that found here is used for Barabbas."
----- [footnote on John 18:40:] "Barabbas: ... 'revolutionary:' a guerrilla warrior fighting for nationalistic aims, though the term can also denote a robber."
Mark -- With him they crucified two revolutionaries, one on his right and one on his left.
Luke -- Now two others, both criminals, were led away with him to be executed. ... Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us."
John -- There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, with Jesus in the middle.

Although the name "Salome" may have sounded unfamiliar to you, you have surely heard it before. It was present in the old Lectionaries. About her, the old Catholic Encyclopedia says ...
"One of the holy women present at the Crucifixion, and who visited the tomb on the morning of the Resurrection (Mark 15:40; 16:1). In Mark 15:40, we read: 'And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the Mother of James the Less and of Joseph [or Joses], and Salome.' The parallel passage of Matthew reads thus: 'Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matthew 27:56). Comparison of the two gives a well-grounded probability that the Salome of the former is identical with the mother of the sons of Zebedee in the latter, who is mentioned also in Matthew 20:20ff., in connection with the petition in favor of her sons. Beyond these references in the Gospel narrative and what may be inferred from them nothing is known of Salome, though some writers conjecture more or less plausibly that she is the sister of the Blessed Virgin mentioned in John 19:25."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 15, 2003.


Hi John,

I have been keeping up with the forum, but when I saw the latest round of not-so-nice posting, I figured not to add to the bandwith. I am glad that you are back!

Thank you for the clarification. When I think of Salome, I admit I first thought of the opera and "the seven veils". Wrong one, lol.

I know that the readings are rotated, but I'd never seen "revolutionaries" in connection with it, which was why I was wondering if someone had been trying to make it more PC or something, especially with the addition of more women.

It was a little bit trying to listen to the reading this year--the narrator apparently had not gone through and checked pronunciations. "Buffets" was pronounced "boo-fays".

When will there be a "proper and correct" translation of the Bible, or will there always be revisions?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 15, 2003.


John G - You are what is termed a revistionist. For two full milleniums both were termed and known as the repentant thief and the other not.

Stop leading people here astray with you holier then thou and no-it- all attitude. Your becming dangerous on the forum. Your false.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), April 15, 2003.



Jmj

Hi, GT. Thanks for welcoming me back. Most days, I am very happy to be spending time here! You really cracked me up with this one:
"It was a little bit trying to listen to the reading this year -- the narrator apparently had not gone through and checked pronunciations. 'Buffets' was pronounced 'boo-fays.'"
Seems that the recent trend in dining out [all-you-can-eat "buffets"] overwhelmed the readers' better judgment. Nobody ever talks about "buffeting" another person any more!


Jean, you poor pathetic soul! You don't even realize it when you are defeating your own purposes.

You stated:
"You are what is termed a revistionist."
That's hilarious! The pot calling the kettle black! Your four years at the forum, Jean, have been dedicated to "revising" Catholicism to fit your heterodox theology and immoral life practices. Yet you have the nerve to call me a "revisionist" when I merely support the use of an alternate meaning of one Greek word!

Here is the logic behind the editors' use of the term "revolutionaries" in the new translation of Mark -- in case you can muster the courage to follow it, Jean ...

First, according to the RSV, St. Mark 15:7 says this (not about the men crucified, but about Barabbas):
"And among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection, there was a man called Barabbas."
[Here we see that Barabbas was definitely a "revolutionary."]

Second, St. Luke 23:18-19 says this:
"'... release to us Barabbas' -- a man who had been thrown into prison for an insurrection started in the city, and for murder."
[This confirms that Barabbas was a "revolutionary."]

Third, St. John 18:40 says this (and I will insert the Greek word used, instead of the English):
"They cried out again, 'Not this man, but Barabbas!' Now Barabbas was a LESTES."
[So, Barabbas was a "lestes." Although this Greek word is most commonly translated as "thief," we know from Sts. Mark and Luke that Barabbas was not a thief, but a revolutionary. So we learn that "lestes" has the alternate meaning of "revolutionary/insurrectionist."]

Fourth and finally, St. Mark 15:27 says this (again with Greek inserted):
"Mark 15:27 -- And with him they crucified two LESTES, one on his right and one on his left."

Based on what we learned from Matthew, Luke, and John (above), we realize that, in this verse of Mark, "lestes" COULD be translated as "revolutionaries." It does not HAVE to be translated as thiefs/robbers, though it could be (and has been). The editors of the new NAB translation chose to use the word "revolutionaries."

Jean, you wrote: "For two full milleniums both were termed and known as the repentant thief and the other not."

Well, Jean, you were not around for those "two full millennia," so you don't know if, always and everywhere, they were called "thieves." Even so, I never said that it was wrong to say that the men were thieves, but only that it seemed more likely to me that they were not. If you want to believe that they were thieves, feel free to do so!

Jean, you continued: "Stop leading people here astray with you holier then thou and no-it-all attitude. Your becming dangerous on the forum. Your false."

Jean, were you drinking quite a bit before posting the above message? I don't recall your spelling ever being quite this atrocious before. In the two quoted sentences, you misspelled five out of twenty-one words. Visitors from non-English-speaking nations usually spell English words better than that. So I can't help but think that it was the "Ripple" in you talking to me here.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 17, 2003.


I never got around to asking them what their offences were, all I knew is that one of them mocked me, the other showed compassion. Now he is here with me in the hereafter, the other is not.

-- Jesus (I Am@the_almighty.com), April 19, 2003.

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