The War in it over? : LUSENET : A.M.E. Today Discussion : One Thread

Is is over...the war in Iraq? Is Saddam Hussein not only out of power, but could he have died in the conflict? After the smoke has cleared and the dust has settled, was our objective achieved? Yes, there were chemicals and suits, but did we find the weapons of destruction? I cannot wait to hear from the conservative side of the board on this...and you know who you are!

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003


Parson Ray: Now who could you possibly be referring to? Since I have been previously linked (erroneously I might add) to the mellow sounding voice of Paul Robeson let me borrw a tune from another legendary crooner Johnny Mathis,......"Yes, its over, let's call it a day". The war in Iraq or lack thereof is a reminder to all the celebrity- commentators, pseudo-Peaceniks, quasi-Quakers and Bush-bashers that America is not persona non grata. Te conspicuous and deafening silence emanates from the discredited Arab network Al Jezeera, the BBC and the French-German-Russian axis. Bush and the US military are greeted thoroughout Iraq as heroes and liberators. US victory and Iraqi liberation was a fait accompli. Were mistakes made? Yes. Is Saddam removed from power? Yes. Is evidence of Iraqi malfeasance i.e. weapons of mas destruction unfolding? Yes. Were our objectives met? Yes. Is oil the paramount objective? NO!!! Will rebuilding Iraq occur overnight? No.

I find it interesting the the "opponents to war" were long on dire and doomsday predictions about thousands of US deaths, Arab uprising and Iraqi resistance. It never materialized yet the naysayers like Democratic Presidential hopefuls, Hollywoood celebs and clergy officials have yet to admit they were wrong. I will not gloat about my prescient outlook before the war. According to the Book of Proverbs "a proud look" is one of the 7 deadly sins. I will always take the high moral ground. I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong. I remain puzzled why some do not abide by this honorable tradition. The state of denial remains over populated.

When I worked in the Pentagon as an economic consultant during the 80s & 90s I concocted a phrase which became know unofficially as "Dickens Law" - "Generals win wars, but intellectuals win revolutions" According to my calculation, one down and one more to go. QED

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003

Brother Allen,

You have asked a most profound question. I am afraid that this war has inflamed more anti-American sentiment in the Dar al Islam. I read a story on Yahoo news yesterday where a senior government official issued a warning to Syria, Iran, and North Korea about their efforts towards obtaining nuclear arms in light of the war with Iraq. Although, I agree with Mr. Bush's decision to attack Iraq, I was shocked by this government official's arrogance in making these statements to the press. My experience with my muslim middle eastern friends have taught me that these individuals are determined individuals. I have met two palestinians and they have described with great anger their life style in Israel.

Quite frankly, one has to wonder why the media has not done a better job of telling their story to the American public. One has to wonder what is so miserable about their lives that they are willing to strap a bomb onto their person and kill themselves along with killing others. The American media is morally bankrupt to not focus any attention on them. I suspect that there are many muslims in the US who sympathize with Iraq and the Palestinians and are determined to seek vengeance against us. I think that we are in line for more terrorism at home. I pray that God will give us the wisdom to pray for our safety when we travel to large cities.


-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003

My brother Bill since it was I who felt you sounded like Paul Robeson, let me add that I stand by my description. Throw in some Billy Ekstine for those of us old enought to remember and you have Bill Dickens voice. In other words if Bill wanted to go into show biz and do voice overs , James Earl Jones would be out of a job and Bill could make me enough money to do all of my mission projects and have enough left over to buy his wife a sapphire. I am being serious. Brother Bill you could make a lot of money.

Now in terms of clergy who did not want a war. I am one of those clergy persons, I spoke out against the war and marched against the war. My prayers and those of clergy I know was that this war would be short lived if there had to be one. My prayers have been with our soldiers and the civilians in Iraq. This is not over yet and the consequences are just beginning to be felt. I have seen and heard the gratitude of the people of Iraq. And I have always put Saddam in the same category as Hitler for the genocide he has practiced on his own people. Soldiers have died, children in america will not see their father or mothers, many have been wounded. Many civilians have been killed. There are thousands without food or water, I ask that we wait and see how we can help the people of Iraq before we say we have won this war. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, for it releases me from sin. But I can't use the words "we have won the war" when people have died and many are without food. Let us continue our prayers.

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003

I think Ray is speaking about me :)

The battle is over; the war continues.

I believe we will find the bigger cache weapons in a bunker or under one the of mosques. They may even be over in Syria and Iran.

I think that Saddam was not as stupid as we think (or the media has portrayed) he is. A response from him (and his followers) is coming.

Part of the problem with this war is that (and I said this before) it is a blend of politics and religion. Buddhists have gone as far as to set themselves on fire to protest injustice. Political heroes (such as Bobby Sands <--i think) have gone on hunger strikes to protest. For a Muslim, to die in a Holy War (an oxymoron) is the quickest way to Paradise.

So to say someone's life is miserable because they are willing to die for a cause they believe in is being short-sighted. Was Christ's life miserable? He died for our sins. Was Stephen's life miserable?

Just a thought

Rev. John Harper Newly-appointed Director of Internet Communication, Los Angeles District, Southern California Conference <---shameless plug

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003


-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003

Pulling from my R&B old school days, I still hear the Temps singing “War. What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing.” And quoting one of my favorites, the ever dynamic Nina Simone, “Please Don’t Let Me Be Misunderstood.”

In reference to Brother QED’s statement of Peacenik, I just made a Peacenik emblem and attached it to my favorite sweater because it refers to Matthew 5:9. It reads as such: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” As far as I am concerned you cannot get any better than that. And because Jesus tells me that I must love my enemies, I have to learn to do that also. It is not easy, but it separates His folk from the rest because you know what happens if salt loses its flavor. (Believe me when I tell you I know how hard it can be to love one’s enemy. Two years ago my 16 year-old daughter was savagely beaten to the point that I did not recognize my one and only child. This is my child whom I dedicated to God, the child whom I loved before she left my womb. I wanted to extract revenge on the perpetrators of the crime in the worst way. I remember people telling me they would handle the situation quietly, but would leave a very loud message. In the midst of all this, God’s peace entered in. He told me to do nothing, but look to Him. He handled everything in the past, and He would do so then. I listened to Him, and indeed He did just what He said He would do. He stepped in and peace ensued. It was not easy, but our enemies were turned away, without anyone lifting a hand, nor saying a word. I know God and I know He is real. Leave your enemies in His hand. )

Because I am a Christian, I believe exactly what Jesus, the Christ said. Read Matthew 5: 43 through 48. No where in the Bible will you find JESUS instructing His followers to war or revenge. In Revelation, it describes Him as extracting revenge, and that is fine with me.

To be honest, I am glad Iraqis are waving flags at the American soldiers. I rather have that then the population shooting at them. But with all the hoopla, I believe caution and a wait and see attitude is still key. If history is an indicator, remember what happened with the Americans in Saigon, Israel in Lebanon, and and the Soviets in Afganistan. If that does not jog your memory, than remember our Holy season. It reminds us of the fickleness of people. Remember Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem on a donkey, while the crowds waved olive branches and shouted, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!” Before you know it Jesus is betrayed by one of His own, arrested, condemned by the hypocritical religious leaders, disowned by His closest friends, tried by an occupying government and mocked by its army. To make matters worse, the people who once lauded Him, now said “Crucify Him.” In a short time they changed from Hosanna to Crucify by listening to the wrong folk.

I do not condone the war, but if America waged war on Iraq it has no excuse for losing it. The weapons the US hold far outweigh what Iraq has (even if sand can bring down million dollar equipment). So that is not the point. The point is can you win the peace? And then there are the endless questions: Is there a connection between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorists? Does Iraq really have the weapons of mass destruction? What was the real motive for war? What kind of government will be set up? Our initial case was to make a preemptive strike? Now, what will nations do if they feel threatened by another? Suppose North Korea says it feels threatened by the US. They then have the right to go to war against the US, according to our actions. How about Pakistan?

As far as I am concerned, war is not revolutionary enough. It just makes folk want to get bigger and better weapons and destroy more. Love is revolutionary. It makes you think about more ways to do good to people, to make sure everyone has enough and it changes attitudes. The Love of Jesus changed the world by bringing down the Roman empire. Just think what it could do now. And peace is not for wimps. It takes a strong person, a warrior really, to bring peace because you cannot fear the outcome. It causes you to pray, and think, and be creative. You have no gun to rely on, only God.

Peace Out!!!!

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003

Pardon the interruption Mary you have the right 60s "fight" song but the wrong artist. Edwin Starr, who incidentally died last week, is the Motown artist who performed and sang the song 'War'. I admire your testimony about your beloved daughter. I am a father of a 9 year old daughter. I know if Nia was subjected to similar heinous acts my reaction and instincts would be strikingly similar to Maya Angelou's uncles described in her moving autobiography, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.

I believe I have a moral duty to protect (by force if necessary) my loved ones from all evil. In fact, despite differences we have about politics and war, if I am in Philly and you happen to be in my immediate company and I sensed your life was threatened I would extend the same protective services to you as I would my wife, mother- in-law or two sisters-in-laws. I read Dr. King's moving testimonial, 'Strength to Love' several years ago and believe that Love is the supreme act of human dignity. I ackowledge I am an imperfect soul. I simply abhor evil. The gospel songwriter said it best, 'Please be patient with me. God is not thru with me yet.'

You are quite correct in citing one of the beloved passages from The Beatitudes in St. Matthew. I truly desire to be a peacemaker. I have no fondess for endless hostilities. Ironically, Jesus actually complicates the Peacenik paradigm by espousing an interesting anti- peace message in the same book 5 chapters ahead of the Beatitudes. It would be interesting to read and listen to the "exegesis" of St. Matthew 10:34-36. Oh, thanks for the Nina Simone quote. My sentiments exactly :-) QED

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003

Congratulations of being appointed as the new director for internet communications for the fifth district (Los Angeles) I am very proud of my fifth district brother. And will keep you in prayer. Hopefully I will see you at the Bishop's planning meeting. I don't want to brag but the fifth district is awesome. I love my fifth district family. Again congratualations on your new appointment!!! And thanks for sharing some good news. It is great to hear what our moderator is doing.

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2003

Clarification: The above message is for Rev. John Harper, our moderator.

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2003

Sister Brooks,

You have said it all and said it well. I hardly dare to touch your thought. So I will simply add the words to an aria from Act II, #38 of Handel's Sacred Oratorio, "Judas Maccabaeus" The oratorio was written in 1747 and the librettist was Thomas Morell. How well it still applies today.

How vain is man, who boasts in fight The valour of gigantic might! And dreams not that a hand unseen Directs and guides this weak machine.

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2003

uks today

Actually about the Motown Song WAR , you are both right . The Temptations did record it , but it didn't do well. So Edwin Starr was brought into the studio and he did it and made a hit out of it. Probably because of his firm anti war beliefs. And he had another protest song called STOP THE WAR .

For more info visit

Well we may have to go through that all again if they want start another war with someone else. What do we do ? Well an English group called The Peddlers had a song called TELL THE WORLD WE'RE NOT IN !

Goes something like this , or so,

I don't want to hear the shallow words the world is saying , I Don't want to see the complicated games they're playing, So why stay to join in, When the people come knocking, Tell the world we're not in ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- bill dickens (, April 11, 2003.

Pardon the interruption Mary you have the right 60s "fight" song but the wrong artist. Edwin Starr, who incidentally died last week, is the Motown artist who performed and sang the song 'War'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Mary Brooks (, April 11, 2003.

Pulling from my R&B old school days, I still hear the Temps singing “War. What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing.” And quoting one of my favorites, the ever dynamic Nina Simone, “Please Don’t Let Me Be Misunderstood.”


-- Anonymous, April 19, 2003

This is how I interpret these verses in Matt 10.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- 36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5] 37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

I believe Jesus warns us about the cost of discipleship. The cost of evanglizing. Jesus never tried to paint a pretty picture, but is straight forward about the consequences of one saying they love him.

Let's say there is a happy family, and all of a sudden one of them gives their life to Christ. The light of Christ in their life will bring division in the family. There will be some form of separation.

In some ways what Jesus says sounds exagerrated, but it was true even before he was crucified. Some may have thought he came to bring peace, but his presence brought division. So much division he was put to death. His presence made an abrupt halt to what was considered normal. And this is exactly what was needed. A change. Jesus, today probably would have been called a revolutionist. He radically changed the normalities of religious practices and beliefs.

Sometimes we can be at "peace" because we don't know what true peace can be. If that is the case, the truth of Jesus will make us free. In that freedom, your "peace" may have to be disrupted.


-- Anonymous, April 21, 2003

Ms. Buchanan: I did read your note and was prepared to respond but I simply got side-tracked with something else. Jesus uses an intersting metaphor to explain decision-making and decisiveness, a sword. This is a modest but lethal weapon of mass destruction. If Christ had utter comtempt for war I don't think He would have chosen such a controversial concept. I have always understood the passage to underscore the importance about making choices. One's "enemies" may very well be immediate family members who are non-committal about the Cross. While this passage does not endorse Leo Tolstoy's classic, 'War & Peace' it does shed interesting insight on the importance of conflict. QED

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2003

Thank you Mr. Dickens for your response.

And when you stand firm on your beliefs, sometimes conflict is a given.

I do believe Christ HAS contempt for war, and uses such a concepts because unfortunately that is what people understood then and now understand.

His disciples wanted him (As the Messiah) to come with a sword to deliver them, but then, was not the time. But if we believe the Word of God, we understand A final conflict must take place. Christ will lead this war.

All other wars (in my opinion) are because of man's greed. James 4:1-2 James 4 1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

Whichever side one happens to be on, you can believe, some form of greed is the originator all wars.


-- Anonymous, April 24, 2003

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