i have been watching with great interest the various threads that touching upon V2 and in particluar the "modernisation" of the Church. now, the question that strikes me immediately is -- what if the Pope had spoken infallibly upon the various topics that are in contention? eg what if it had been infallibly declared that there is salvation outside the Church?

that is the background to the question posed: what motivates an infallible statement from or Pope?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 02, 2003

Answers

the Holy Spirit

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 02, 2003.

and so, if the Holy Spirit has declined to intervene, what does that mean for the Church.

-- Ian (ib@vertigfo.com), April 02, 2003.

Jesus promised the Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to all truth. (John 16:13) Jesus, who is the truth, cannot lie. Jesus, who is God, cannot be mistaken. Therefore we must accept as an article of faith that the Holy Spirit guides the Church to all truth. If it were not so, then no-one on earth would have any way of knowing the truth with certainty.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 02, 2003.

Paul

the threads i have in mind suggest that current "non-infallible" teaching is contradicting certain previous "infallible" teachings of our Church; and they also argue that such previous "infallible" teaching may have been infallibly declared to be irrevocable.

where does the truth lie?

Why is there such uncertainty?

-- Ian (ib@vertigfo.com), April 02, 2003.

I feel no uncertainty. But then, I see my position in the church as follower of the Magisterium, not its self-appointed critic, judge, and censor. I dare say if I set myself up in that role, I would experience a great deal of uncertainty, since I would be so drastically unqualified to attempt such a thing. Some however seem to consider themselves quite well qualified for such a task. No wonder they are floundering in uncertainty and confusion! The official doctrinal teaching of the Church today CANNOT conflict with the doctrines of former times. God said so. If something appears, to insignificant, pitifully unqualified ME, as a probable conflict in doctrine, I immediately KNOW that I lack the necessary depth of understanding. And why wouldn't I? My understanding of doctrine, compared to that of the Magisterium, is like my understanding of space flight, compared to that of the director of NASA. Yet I see people with no more expertise or authority than myself, ready to stand up and boldly declare "I see a conflict here, so the Magisterium must be wrong"! This is absurd! Did Jesus lie when He said the Holy Spirit would lead the Church to ALL TRUTH? Was He joking when He said that whatsoever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven?

There may well be some non-binding statements, some fallible declarations being made by some people which do conflict with genuine Catholic doctrine, past and present. However, if the Magisterium, under the ongoing inspiration of the Holy Spirit, doesn't see such a conflict, I will not humiliate myself by pretending that I know better than they do. If I did, many as ignorant as I would think me astute; but great theological minds would regard me as a fool, and an exceedingly proud fool at that. So I keep my mouth shut and my mind open, study, learn, and grow, so that when my former foolishness is finally revealed, it will be revealed only to myself, instead of being broadcast to any who will listen.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 02, 2003.

There are some people who will object that since the popes possess the charism of Infallibility, they cannot fall from the faith. But there is no real difficulty here. These people merely confuse Papal Infallibility with Indefectibility. Indefectibility is divine protection from falling away from the faith. But this charism is not given to any Individual, not even to popes, but only to the Church in general (as opposed to particular or local churches). Individuals possess free will and are therefore entirely capable of falling away. Even St Paul the Apostle refused to claim personal indefectibility, when the Apostles were vehicles of Divine Revelation. To claim or to attribute personal indefectibility to any man is to err into heresy.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 02, 2003.

I'm certainly no expert, but it was my understanding that a statement of infallibility is a very rare occurrance. The last instance of an infallible statement from the Pope was was back in the 1940's I believe. I was under the understanding that it was a statement of the Church's position as it pertained to Mary.

The Pope declared that Mary was conceived without the tendecy to sin. Her conception was the Immaculate Conception. (Immaculate Conception is often misunderstood as the conception of Jesus)

He also declared that Mary was Assummed, Body and Soul into Heaven. This is now known as the Assumption. (As opposed to the Assention, which refers to Jesus' "Assention" into Heaven)

-- Phillip (crst@borno.com), April 21, 2003.