While searching the archived messages for the cruise postings by Kim and David, I came across Jims original Welcome and noticed that it all began April 1,2001. Then I looked at the interesting mix of postings that now reside in the archives. Everyone here should go back and look at was in the archives and see what made BTS work.

I can only speak for myself as to why I have greatly reduced my postings here, but I will. When I was invited here, I explained to Jim that I was a political consevative with a slight libertarian slant and didn't feel that I would fit in. Jim however, pointed out that I did quite a bit of research in agronomics and environmental reclaimation and there would be an opportunity of discussion here with a more in depth discussion than the other boards. The fact that I was a registered Republican didn't matter. :>)

When I began participating actively here, I brought my experimental discussions here because of the lack of politics on site. Now politics and left extremist postings prevail. Perhaps a way to draw a base of posters here would be to go into the archives here and choose postings that had a good thread of participation in civil manner and use that topic to post a thread at homesteading today and see who posts in similar manner. By posting a test group of threads there, we can use it as a control group to select potentials for BTS who can participate in civilized form here. Since Homesteadingtoday now has over 3000 active posters, we should be able to bring 2 or 3 new posters here a month. Reining in of the politics will assist with the growth also.

I greatly reduced my participation after four postings of mine that were discussions of experiments I was doing, recieved no response due to more interest in politics. Another poster whom I brought here also chose to not participate due to the heavy political discussion here and she was from MN. :>)

It is possible to reactivate this board, but as John touched on in the other thread, you will have to select from a wider perspective of overall views.

Happy belated birtday BTS, 2004 will have a better party.

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

Answers

Apparently BTS decided to celebrate it's birthday by taking the day off. I tried to get into the site several times yesterday with no luck. I did remember though that it was our birthday. :)

I do have some ideas/comments on the rest of your post, but they're going to have to wait until I get home tonight. Silly boss actually expects me to work at my job today. :)

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

Glad it wasn't just me, Sherri! I couldn't get here at all yesterday either. But I didn't remember til late last night the this forum began on April Fool's Day :-)! Happy B'day, BTS!!!!

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

Happy Birthday to us!!

I remember when we went password protected, the naysayers felt the forum would die from lack of participation. I, for one, am not quite ready to pat dirt in the old girl's face yet - after all, where else could I get by with my atrocious grammer?!

Jay, I very much enjoyed reading your postings about your experiments - the worms, the "instant" raised bed gardens, and the Commador 64 experiment - I wanted to send you my old Commador for that one! I often read, but don't always post an answer - bad manners, I guess. It's too bad that Lusenet doesn't have the feature that shows how many people have read a post, like some of the boards I go to - then at least you know if anyone is interested! Maybe we just need to post a "lurk" response to let folks know that we're still alive and still interested in what they have to say.

I, too, go back to the archives to look up a particular post - and get lost reading; smiling and laughing. I've probably gone through a ream of paper printing out just certain OTF chats. Was that really us? Is the past few months really us? Is the war really affecting us so much that it is the only thing that we can talk about? The only thing that is going on in our lives that we can verbalize? I'm not as brave(?) as you Jay; when I see which way the wind is blowing, I can't bring myself to step out and piss in it anyway.

I would like to see some old blood come back - Jim, Sharon and Nick, Kim and Dave, Ali, Jumpoff Joe, - and yes, our missing MN-ie too (how's she doing, BTW?) Or some folks that are here, but not often (Julie, where are you!) But, I guess if we can't get them; then maybe we could import some new blood. What sort of topics did you have in mind, Jay? Could you be kind enough to point us to the catagory and thread (catagory, title and date) so that we could maybe see what worked back then? I'm all for the idea of posting the topics elsewhere to see what kind of response we get - after all, we don't have to use the results if it doesn't work out - such is the nature of experimentism! I've not read much at HT; can't handle the animosity!; so I don't know what all kind of folks are over there. Probably some nice folks getting shouted down, who would fit in well here. My vote is to go ahead and give it a shot - anyone else?

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

I have not been able to post either...couldn't get on! I thought perhaps that the server was too busy precisely because everyone was writing in to say "Happy Anniversary, BTS!"... 8-)

I don't have any time to cruise other bulletin boards, so I don't know if there's a lot of BTS-ers participating anywhere else.

I will say that political discussions are already everywhere in the world, it seems. I imagine that some of the more vocal folks that participate here are busy right now, taking their message to the streets, as it were, and not necessarily posting a lot of internet messages.

For our household, we're busy with Mr. S's recovery, and I'm back at work full-time. We have our political discussions with our elected representatives (and certainly others).

For folks who feel that this war is (gee pick a descriptor!) wrong, idiotic, immoral, suicidal, and however else it can be described, the internet is one place where there is a modicum of support for protest. Seems like most of the regular media, population, etc., is supporting this war, and lately, it seems almost scary to voice anything in opposition in the "real" world. I guess it's nice to be able to talk to people who have similar feelings without being challenged. I know that's always a risk...keeping yourself surrounded by folks who only agree with you; nevertheless...

I went to see "The Pianist" this weekend. Between teevee spots, and that movie, I've seen enough war stuff for a while. I'm gearing up to work on election campaigns and gardening to work off some of my angst.

I'm rambling and need coffee and need to get to the office. Thanks for your post.

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

Polly,

All we do is look through the posts where we had good participation, then maybe take the topic idea to HT or the other forums that we frequent and post it, then see the type of responses that occur and sort through them for potential candidates here. Same way it was done 2 years ago.

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

Happy Birthday Beyond the Sidewalks. Couldn't get on either but forgot it was it's birthday anyway.

I think you are right. We do need new blood. I guess I get scared that someone not nice will come and disrupt stuff but I should respect someone's elses opinion on a new person.

I've been writing about my farm but don't often get the nice long, rambling responses that we used to get. You know the ones, kind of like the kid's game telephone where you start out by saying a had baby goats and the last post is talking about a new septic tank.

I do miss it.

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

I miss the "thread drift", too Dee! Maybe some new faces will give this place some "OOMPH"!! I really miss reading about stuff folks here were doing around their homesteads. Yeah, I respond to some political posts, but...not being very good at debating or arguing (for lack of a better word!)...I try to steer clear of that subject!! I have my own opinions and would not want to impose them on anyone else here. BUT...I still want to hear about your goats, Jay's worms, Julie's horses and Polly's "adventures"!! Not to mention what's going on in everyone else's daily lives. I think that when a group becomes so small, as we have, ordinary happenings in our lives become mundane so we don't post them. Maybe if there were more people posting here (with their mundane lives) we "regulars" would have more to respond to!?? Does that make sense?? I still want this place to remain private, 'cause I do tend to "reveal" more here that I do anywhere else :-)!! Anyways...that's my 2 cents worth!!

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

Right now my worms are taking a back seat to romance. But thats a whole different bin of worms :>)

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2003

I like the idea Jay. It could give us a real sample of where others are coming from, how they conduct themselves, and an opportunity for others here to watch the discussion in "real time" so to speak.

The only reservation I'd have is if it was one of my posts that got elected as a sample I'd like the opportunity to give the go/no-go signal as this has been the board where I've revealed more of my "personal" stuff. Despite the departures of so many others everyone has been honorable about keeping the password a private one.

In a way, I'd kinda hate to see political and religious discussion banned from this site tho because they do stimulate the grey matter but on the other hand Diane and Cindy have both left due to religious discussions.

On HT-GC several conservatives have correctly pointed out IMO that some "liberals", who would say they are for diversity, get really huffy when they encounter another pov that is diametrically opposed to their own and the same is true for some "conservatives".

As I recall, when this board was founded by Jim it was for the purpose of free exchange of ideas and thoughts. Many here are more or less liberal and some are more conservative. I remember the pounding we used to get at the old CS site so this became a safe haven.

While I generally tend to be more left leaning I do sympathize with some conservative issues, but the only reason I do is because I try to listen to opposing points of view with as open a mind as I can muster. At the end I may still not agree but maybe I've learned something. Thats he point of forums IMO and when we remain respectful and fair minded without becoming wishy washy conversation flows.

Sometimes it causes me to wonder tho why discuss anything if we're not actually willing to keep an open mind. Are we so intent on convincing others of the "rightness" of our own views or are we searching for the elusive truth about any given subject?

We are a nation divided and IMO we, collectively have bigger fish to fry than promoting one political POV or another. As a divided nation we are more manipulable, thus more subject to the puppetmasters and thats not a good thing. And thats the way its gonna stay until each of us exercise the will to listen to the other guy and try to hear what truth they have to share.

I'm rambling here. I guess what I wanna say, as far as I'm concerned, anything should be fair game as far as topics are concerned but as Chuck at HT might say, as long as we play nice. Discuss---- passionately, heatedly but always respectfully and we should get along fine.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2003

I couldn't get in here on the first. Don't know about anyone else, but it seems like a lot longer than 2 years to me!

I did a little digging around back in the archives and came up with this thread: http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=004wGw

You have to scroll down a bit to get to the pertinent bit, so I copied it and pasted below. This is a copy of our original invitation, from Jim Morris, to this forum:

Hi xxxxxx,

I recently created a new forum as an alternative to the Countryside forum and I would like to formally invite you to stop by and maybe make it a place that you'll visit frequently.

I've noticed lately that the Countryside forum is becoming more and more a haven for far-right fundamentalist Christians. It seems that moderate christians, pagans, liberals, gays and lesbians, environmentalists and others with differing viewpoints from the fundamentalists haven't been posting quite as much lately. Some of this is perhaps because of harassing emails and even computer viruses that were sent to some forum members possibly as a form of intimidation. I'm concerned that if these sorts of things continue much longer the fundamentalists will win by default and those of us who differ with them will end up giving up the CS forum and scattering to other areas of the Net.

I'd hate to see that happen. So, I created the Beyond the Sidewalks (BTS) forum as an alternative for us "free thinkers". Now don't get the idea that I'm giving up on the Countryside forum, but instead think of this new forum as a lifeboat for a worst-case scenario. It's also my thinking that if all of us with strong opinions can find our own forums to vent at, the Countryside forum will maybe move back to a place of stability for ALL of us to discuss specific homesteading questions.

It is my hope that the BTS forum will become a place (a sanctuary perhaps) for weary individuals to come to when they're fed up with the ultra right-wing antics on the CS forum. As I state in the "welcome" message on the BTS forum, I won't put up with spam, porn, proselytizing or witnessing and I won't hesitate to delete the troublemaker's posts after an initial warning and I WILL contact the troublemaker's ISP if necessary. Hopefully that will prevent problems in the first place.

***********************

Of course, we can go in different directions if we want. Just wanted to post the origins since the subject is coming up here.

Reading the archives makes me sad . . . so many people who just disappeared. :(

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2003

Thats what we're trying to rectify Joy. Time for a ressurection. Easters just around the corner!

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2003

Like Jay, I think the biggest reason I stopped posting much is because I began to notice almost no feedback to things I did post. I had heard that at least one person was weary of my "bragging" about my kids. I recieved almost no response to my posts about Lotus's career, which is terribly exciting to me; at first it confused me, later I decided what I was doing just wasn't all that interesting to others anymore, maybe never was! But my kids are really the only thing I feel I've done really well in my life, and if people are bored or put off with my talking about them, then I have no real place here. Like the above excerpt shows, this forum was a community of folks who met on a homesteading forum, but wanted a place where it was safe and pertinent to share a wider part of our lives. Since I'm a backasswards homesteader, I have little to offer in the way of country day-to-day experiences anymore, but I am the same person with the same values that I try to live in a meaningful way. My life has changed so radically and I have had a very difficult time adjusting, BTS was at first move a great comfort to me, but gradually became feeling unsafe again, and I backed away.

Polly asks "Is the war really affecting us so much that it is the only thing that we can talk about? "

I can only speak for me, but yes, it IS affecting me in a profound way. It is difficult for me to understand people who can not be affected by the knowledge that people we have never met are being slaughtered and enduring unspeakable horrors at the hands of my country's government with what I see as no justification whatsoever. Politics to me is life; politics affects every single thing that we experience as a culture and as individuals, and pretending that it doesn't isn't going to make it less so. I understand that most people in this country (assumed from the fact that only half of us even bother to vote!) attempt to escape the realities out there by hiding from them, by trying to find a modicum of personal happiness by ignoring the big picture because it's too painful. It is not my place to judge them, certainly. But that is not who I am; I firmly believe that we get the government we deserve, that we have handed control over to corporate powers, and I just do not have the constitution to live my life, comfortable as I am, and ignore all the suffering out there,all the injustice, all the degradation. I feel strongly it is our duty to be involved in the process, to never give up as long as we draw breath fighting to help create a world motivated by kindness and love and fairness and respect.

There are many people here who help create that world in their daily lives; their concern for others and for the planet is obvious. One doesn't have to be an overt activist to make a difference in the world. But if we cannot discuss political issues here, in a respectful way, then we are exposing ourselves as only partial persons,IMO.

When I look at the a list of the folks who have left, I see a pattern with most of them. It's the same issue I have brought up before several times, because it's something that has changed me profoundly as a human being in my own personal life. That is the issue of "taking things personally."

This is one of the most difficult lessons for us humans to grasp, I think, at least that has been my experience, but I think it is probably the singular most important one in learning how to get along with other human beings, regardless of our differences. When we decide to take offense, to be offended by what someone else says, or by what they believe, nothing good can come of it. We immediately and arrogantly imagine that we know what it's like to be the speaker of those words, what motivated them, what their intention was, and decide we have been wronged. Once we decide we have been wronged, we feel the need for the speaker to make it right, and the assumptions we have made about our 'abuser' color everything from that point on. How much more productive it is,and personally self-enlightening, to step back and remember that what other people say has nothing to do with us, that we do not walk in anyone else's shoes but our own, and to decide that, with compassion in our hearts, 'what you think of me is none of my business.'

My point is I think that most of the people who have walked away from this forum have done so because they felt offended, or attacked, or ostracized. With one exception,I don't think anyone who has ever been on this forum was ever in the habit of attacking (although most of us have let go perhaps a bit too strongly from time to time). I think for the most part we were able to discuss almost anything with respect and understanding. Indeed, that is the only way things CAN be discussed. But lately, all subjects which engender obvious differences of opinion have pretty much been silenced,or participated in by very few, and that makes for a rather vacuous environment. I think it's imperative for people to learn how to talk about controversial topics in a respectful manner; it's part and parcel of learning to live together in the world, and this could be a good place to practice.

I dunno,I've babbled enough,as usual. I truly do feel a genuine affection for many of you here; I just don't feel that sense of community closeness anymore, and yes, it is sad.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2003

EM: Yup, thats one of the reasons why I haven't posted as much here because when I did there wasn't much response so you kinda lose interest after a while.

And I agree about the taking of things personally but on the other hand I think when we do respond to another in a heated debate its a good idea to try to be temperate in our responses. I don't mean being wishy washy but just respectful of the differences we are all likely to have.

Recently in the debates about the war things got pretty hot and jay seemed to be the recipient of the flames. I don't agree with his stance either but credit where its due---Jay does practice "tolerance" in that he seems to recognize we ARE different and he just calls it the way he sees it without making judgements upon those who don't agree with him.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2003

OK, it took longer than I expected to get back to the computer, but here goes...

It would be great to get this board cooking again. I am a bit apprehensive about adding new folks since I tend to be myself more here than anywhere else, but what's life without a little risk? I just don't want this to turn into the free-for-all that is General Chat over at Homesteading Today. I'm very much an "under the radar" type of gal in real life, I'm uncomfortable with conflict. I only know one person in "real life" who shares my views on the war, so coming here is a relief. Some of the war discussions here have gotten more heated than I felt comfortable with, but that's probably due to my personal issues.

Sometimes I don't post because I don't understand the discussion and I don't want to look stupid. Many of the political discussions are that way.

I would really miss not being able to read Polly's long posts about life with her family. Polly, I really think that you should write a story for Countryside Magazine about Pop's stroke and the ways you've modified things to accomodate. As we all get older I think more homesteaders are going to be in similar situations. I wonder if the reason why we don't have more homesteading-type posts here is because many of us aren't homesteaders in the traditional sense. I'm sure not. EM, I would love to hear more about your kids. Hearing about them gives me hope for the future. I know nothing about the music industry but I so know that Lotus sings the blues better than any girl her age has a right to!

OK, I just read back through this and realized that it makes no sense, but I'm going to post it anyway. Happy Monday!

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2003

Sherri...your post makes perfect sense to me. Not being a great "orator" myself, I want to thank you for putting into words something that I couldn't :-)!!

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2003

EM, I'm always delighted to hear about your girls - Brag away! Heaven knows, I do!

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2003