what do Protestants believe happens immediately after they pass away?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
I know what catholics believe, but what do protestants believe happens immediately after they pass on? My protestant friend tells me that people just fall asleep and that they will awake at Christ's 2nd coming. Is that right?
-- marie (m@peace.com), March 28, 2003
Hi Marie, Most believe they simply go to be the with Lord, but some, like your friend, believe they 'fall asleep' or go into a comatose state(for lack of a better word) until the 2nd coming.Love,
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 28, 2003.
Ancient Judiac thought was should one not have lived a " Godly " life then at the point of death they would be seperated from God for eternity. Hence the " fear " of death.Since the days in which the church's teachings of limbo and purgatory are no longer with us - this is a very very good question indeed for all Christians.
My own belief is at the last hour of my life I shall have direct contact with Christ - having seen this several times while attending and viewing the dying -.
In addition my belief in an All knowing - All loving - All forgiving God will should I fully accept Him/Jesus in that final hour - I like the labourer(s) who were hired at the last hour will receive a full days pay.
A memory come to mind when a few short years ago a crusty foul- mouthed old man I knew was on his death bed. I suggested we no longer play the game of human pride and asked if he did in his own heart believe there was a Christ?
Tears\rage\fear came and then submission to what was being opened and offered to him. I called my nun friend and our parish priest who gave him the blue-late special. Baptism/Confirmation/Communion/Last Rites. Took over an hour and he died peacefully.
As my beloved parish priest stated " At these times - we do not sweat the small stuff! "
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), March 28, 2003.
Jean, You did good!!! God Bless,
-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), March 28, 2003.
Since the days in which the church's teachings of .....purgatory are no longer with us????? HUH? Please explain for me. Not sure what you were saying here.
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 28, 2003.
As per Isabel's... "Huh"... and my interpretation of what "Huh" means,... I take it that limbo and purgatory are still with us. I'm on the ripe side of old, its been 25 years, but somewhere along the line, I too seem to have gotten the idea that purgatory along with limbo was no longer a factor. What's the story on this today, (especially purgatory) Also, I've always understood, based on what I think I remember being taught in school,( Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur, Christian Bros. and Jesuits) that after "Catholic" death, you simply "spiritually" go to heaven, provided your're, for lack of better words "in good standing." St. Paul, I believe taught "bodily" resurrection for us. My mother, who is a major champion of my return to the Church believes in "spiritual" resurrection but says that "bodily" resurrection is the actual teaching. Is bodily resurrection "the" Catholic doctrine? Do you have to believe this?
-- James F. Furst (furst@flash.net), March 28, 2003.
My HUH was actually meant to mean this.....I was under the impression of jean's post that he is saying the Church no longer teaches purgatory. Is this what you meant jean? And surely the Church still formally teaches purgatory, do they not?
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 28, 2003.
Purgatory is still a doctrine of the faith and is covered in paragraphs 1030-1032 in the Catechism. The whole thing about Limbo is a bit more hazy. It is my understanding that Limbo was the realm where righteous souls (David, Moses, etc.) hung out prior to the death and resurrection of Christ. Once Christ provided salvation and the way into heaven Limbo was no longer needed. I don't think that the Church has ever officially ruled on the idea of Limbo - it may simply be something theologians have speculated on over the centuries.After the Final Judgement all those in heaven will experience a bodily resurrection, and this is what is professed in the Nicene Creed (as summarized in the CCC paragraphs 1016 & 1017). Prior to this, our existence in heaven will be only spiritual, so we'll have to wait to give Jesus a hug. Mary, through her Assumption, was allowed to experience a bodily resurrection in advance.
-- Eric Filmer (midgardia@hotmail.com), March 29, 2003.
John P - thank you for the compliment.Isabel - At the age of 68 I recall the overlay of teachings pre Vatican 11 in which as a child if I did in the state of sin I would enterarealmn much like hell with pain and suffering to make up for my sinful life. this was based on the Old Testament remnents of the Judiac Wrathful God.
Post Vatican 11 this gradully changed to where I have not heard a priest include this " punishment " in the afterlife. A good last confession will annul the sins of a mn/women regardless of the depth.
What kind of Father would give his son/daughter a stone when he askd for bread?- what kind of a Father would give his son/duaghter a snake when asked for a stick? I think the gospels made it clear but then the church has had to evolve gradually into the realmn of understanding Christ's death did truly free of from past sins.
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), March 29, 2003.
I was taught about purgatory in grade school but later got the idea that purgatory (perhaps as a requirement of faith) was dropped. (Like around the time when St. Christopher for travelers was taken back in the early 70's) I'm not disputing this, just wondering if anyone else thought it was gone. If anyone else thought it was gone, and its not, how did the rumor of purgatory's demise get started. Jim
-- James F. Furst (furst@flash.net), March 29, 2003.
John P - thank you for the compliment.Isabel - At the age of 68 I recall the overlay of teachings pre- Vatican 11 in which as a child if died in the state of sin I would enter a realmn much like hell with pain and suffering to make up for a sinful life. This was based on the Old Testament remnents of the Judiac Wrathful God and Justice.
As to limbo - this is was a farcical place where unbaptized babies and adults spent time waiting for the Second Coming as good Christians. They were not in the " bosom " of the church.
At the point of Christ's death The Veil of Tabernacle was torn in two. The symbolism as understand was the veil seperated man from God in the temple where He " dwelt " on earth.
Christ's death joined the physical world of man with that of the Divine. The Pentacost and the comingof the Hold Spirit was the clincher.
New ball game - new rules and thoughts added and some older ones set aside or dropped. Our Jewish inheritance which is ours is so often ignored by the present laity. We are followers of the God of Abraham jacob an Isiac.
We are the children said to be numbered more then the stars promised.
May traditionalists here will quote standard old time religious stuff that dates from medievel times when the church held the laity in fear and power.
We have learned "evolved " Christ is eagerly awaiting the time when he is able to clear the slate at the hour of death and allow you to gain full peace and serenity not available on this plain. After all we are spirits.
As to our human forms arising this was taught to me also on the last day etc: etc:. Shall wait and see.
Post Vatican 11 gradully changed to where I have not heard a priest include this " punishment " in the afterlife. A good last confession will annul the sins of a mn/women regardless of the depth. Can you imagine the pain and feaar of a man/woman letting it all out than having to face more pain. Does not make sense at all.
What kind of Father would give his son/daughter a stone when he askd for bread?- what kind of a Father would give his son/duaghter a snake when asked for a stick? I think the gospels made it clear but then the church has had to evolve gradually into the realmn of understanding Christ's death did truly free us from past sins.
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), March 29, 2003.
Purgatory is a doctrine of the Christian faith. A doctrine CANNOT be "dropped". Every doctrine the Church teaches, it MUST teach until the end of time.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.
jean,I know my faith, and can plainly see that you speak heresy!!!! The reason I asked my question "HUH" is because you made it sound as if the Catholic Church, not just some priests, was recanting purgatory. As I knew this could not be done, as it is doctrine, then you really threw me for a loop. But now that I read your latest posts, I am not surprised. You have spoken heresy many times before.
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 29, 2003.
Isabel, I don't think that this is entirely Jean's fault. V2 has sent out all these conflicting signals. Sure the catechism covers it but how many read the catechism? They listen to the heresies that too many priests teach from the pulpit every Sunday.A man wote to EWTN this past week, that in confession, the priest absolved him with "Jesus forgives you". The answer from EWTN was find another priest and go to confession again. This is the false teachings from far too many priests. Now you have to shop for confession.
-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), March 29, 2003.
Hi everyone,I am just about finished with my RCIA meetings, and I can tell you purgatory is still being taught, and IS still part of the catechism.
I think throughout the medievel period purgatory took on a very ominous, dark, dingy, devils and dungeons, type of place. We have come a long way from those "ideas". Purgatory, as I understand it, is not a place, but more of a state -- the state of being purified. It has to do with our 'unsanctified' selfs, the selfishness, the conceit, the imperfections need to be ironed out. Yes, we are bought by the blood of Christ, we have eternity to look forward to with Christ, but most of us, at the times of our deaths, have not completely "sold-out" as Christ demands. The want-to may be there, but in practicality most of us did not reach a state of ENTIRE sanctification. We have not submitted entirely to God.
So it really isn't about "earning points," but it's about a life submitted entirely to Christ -- entire sanctification, i.e. holiness.
Love,
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 29, 2003.
Wow, I am confused! I'm new on this board so maybe I'm missing something (and please forgive me if this is the case!). Especially about the heresy claims...maybe someone could clarify this debate for me?!. As far as I know, Purgatory is real and it is for souls that are forgiven their sins but still have to expiate and be cleansed before entering heaven. Nothing unclean can stand before God and if given the chance between suffering in purgatory or coming back to earth, the Holy Souls will choose the pains of purgatory because they are assured the salvation of their soul. We can and should pray for the Holy Souls to help them especially since many people believe either that there is no purgatory or if there is, that no one they know is there. There is a good book on the subject called "Purgatory" by Fr.FX Schouppe,S.J. (I got it through Tan books) and there is also the St.Gertrude prayer that releases 1000 souls from purgatory every time it is said(just do an internet search). Well, that's just my 2 cents...thank you! ~Michelle
-- Michelle (tlavake@hotmail.com), March 29, 2003.
Gail - Thank you for the clarification.Isabel - I am a FREE Christian following in the footsteps of Christ to the best of my ability. I was shown the path of the Catholic church during my lifetime.
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), March 29, 2003.
> "Now you have to shop for confession."With the implication being, that before V2, every priest was perfect. No heresy existed in the Church?
-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), March 30, 2003.
Michelle,Your idea of purgatory is correct. It is said that there is not difference in the fires of purgatory and the fires of hell. The only difference is the consolation the souls in purgatory receive, knowing that they will one day see God again. I say again, because at death we are judged by Him, and then (the majority of people) are sent to purgatory or hell. (I have read the books "Purgatory" and "Hell" and they did say that the worst suffering of those in Hell is being forever denied the Beatific Vision. Hence, they hate all those who do see or will see it.) But the fires of purgatory are real, many souls have appeared from there to warn others in their tepidity. They suffer greatly, as we all must (if not on earth, then in purgatory) to cleanse themselves of their sins before they are allowed admittance into Heaven. You are right, Michelle, they greatly need our prayers. It is said you will never have a greater ally in Heaven than a soul that you helped free from Purgatory. They will be eternally grateful to you, and aid all that they can to help you achieve the gift they have received.
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 30, 2003.
It is true that Purgatory involves suffering. However, even though the suffering of the senses may be similar to that in Hell, the totality of suffering in Purgatory is not comparable to the suffering of Hell. The suffering of Hell involves, in addition to sensate suffering, the devastating realization of eternal loss of all that is good and beautiful - no love, no peace, no joy, no hope. Only hatred, despair, and agony. Hell is ultimate and eternal failure as a human being. In contrast, the sensate suffering of Purgatory is experienced within the context not just of hope, but even going beyond hope, absolute assurance of salvation, something we cannot experience here on earth. The suffering of Purgatory is experienced in joy, peace, and love, awaiting the certainty of eternity in the presence of all that is good and beautiful. Heaven is ultimate fulfillment as a human being, and Purgatory is the assurance of Heaven. Therefore, being there must be quite a different experience overall than being lost forever in Hell.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 30, 2003.
Thank you, Isabel. You confirmed everything I was thinking (including what I did and did not write in my post!). I'm glad I found this forum. ~Michelle
-- Michelle (tlavake@hotmail.com), March 30, 2003.
Um, ok. So does anyone know about the protestant concept of "Abraham's bosom"? I was speaking to a cabby cum pastor the other day, and he told me Protestants go to "Abraham's bosom".
-- marie (m@peace.com), March 31, 2003.
Abraham's bosom is only referred to one time in the whole Bible. Some think it means "paradise." It's a place close to heaven, but not all the way. Paradise sounds mighty good to me right now, but heaven is BEST!Love,
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2003.
Since it is the Protestant position that there are only two possible places of spiritual existence after death - heaven and hell - I don't see how anyone could interpret Luke 16:22-26 as being anything other than a discussion of those two places. Therefore "the bosom of Abraham" must refer to heaven, or at least be in heaven.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 31, 2003.
(topping)
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 03, 2003.
Luke 16:22-26 These verses describe the two destinies of the men, which were as different as their lives on earth had been. The angels assist God in caring for humans (Heb. 1:14). They escorted Lazarus' spirit to Abraham's bosom whereas the rich man simply experienced burial without heavenly honors. The point is the care that God lavished on Lazarus. Jesus pictured Lazarus in Abraham's bosom enjoying the future messianic banquet in the millennial kingdom (cf. 13:28-29). Formerly the rich man had enjoyed banquets and Lazarus had begged for scraps from his table (v. 21), but now the tables had turned.The figure of Abraham's bosom connotes a place of security, godly fellowship with other Old Testament believers, and honor. Hades is the general name for the place of departed spirits (cf. 10:15), and it is the equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol which is found in the Old Testament. However in the New Testament, Hades always refers to the abode of the unsaved dead before their resurrection and condemnation at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). Gehenna (hell) is a different place, the lake of fire, the final destiny of all unbelievers following the great white throne judgment (12:5).
So Protestants believe that believers go directly to Heaven, unbelievers go to hades with their final destination being Hell after the great white throne of judgment.
-- Kevin (k4laps@attbi.com), April 04, 2003.
Michelle, don’t be to certain that in saying any prayer, some 1000 souls are spared the full torment of their stay in Purgatory. St. Gertrude’s prayer is a private devotion only and not officially affirmed by the Church. In any event, we should never get pre- occupied with the number of souls any act of indulgence (including prayers) can release from Purgatory unless the Church has specifically informed us of such. The Church does not teach that 1000 will be saved each time St. Gertrude’s prayer is recited. It could be that a prayer like this could release 1000 souls but the Church just doesn’t know what the exact total is in this instance and we are free to believe what we wish. There are many ways however, that we can help the poor souls in Purgatory in the form of indulgences, in one of two forms - Partial or Plenary; and yes, prayer is among them. Prayer and devotion, kind acts of mercy toward your fellow man, almsgiving, and offering up one’s suffering here in this life, all can assist in lessening the time spent of souls in Purgatory, (and ourselves also, by the way) if specifically offered up for that cause and provided other conditions established by the Church are met. Indulgences are oftentimes overlooked today because of the bad wrap they took in the middle ages when corrupt churchmen sold them to the faithful. (Can you say Martin Luther?)In indulgences, what the Church has done in a definitive way, is to acknowledge God’s bountiful mercy evidenced in Scripture and as passed down to us in Tradition, by stating that certain acts of mercy, when offered for the poor souls in Purgatory will lessen the punishment of souls in Purgatory or ourselves, provided certain criteria are followed. The premise is that God is so touched by our act of charity for someone else, or in commemoration of His Son (because it reminds Him of Jesus’ act of selflessness on the Cross), that He acquiesces to our plea and diminishes time spent for those in Purgatory or in the temporal punishment we have accumulated due to our sins. In addition, by the power invested in her by Christ (Matt. 16:19), the Church not only instituted the formal practice of Indulgences but more particularly to the point of this discussion - the Plenary Indulgence. The Church teaches definitively that a soul will be completely released from Purgatory if all conditions of a Plenary Indulgence are present. If you have a relative or friend who has passed on or even if you would like to pray for a stranger, or serve your fellow man in some way in his honour, you can lessen the time they spend in Purgatory by performing this act of mercy. We are told there are many souls in Purgatory who have no one to pray for them. We really need to use this practice more, particularly for those poor unfortunate souls who remain in Purgatory to this day. There is another thread in this forum dealing extensively with Indulgences that I will “top up” for you, or you can read it here at:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=004qLF
-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 04, 2003.
JmjHello, folks. I just had a chance to read this whole thread, and I'd like to comment on various statements that were made.
QUOTE (from Paul): "... the sensate suffering of Purgatory is experienced within the context not just of hope, but even going beyond hope, absolute assurance of salvation, something we cannot experience here on earth."
COMMENT: Hi, Paul. No problem with most of this sentence, but may I ask which Church document speaks of "sensate suffering of Purgatory." I wonder if the Church has ever spoken of "sensate suffering," since our five senses are not present in Purgatory. Only our souls (not our bodies) are present.
QUOTEs on Limbo:
(1 -- from Eric) "The whole thing about Limbo is a bit more hazy. It is my understanding that Limbo was the realm where righteous souls (David, Moses, etc.) hung out prior to the death and resurrection of Christ. Once Christ provided salvation and the way into heaven Limbo was no longer needed. I don't think that the Church has ever officially ruled on the idea of Limbo - it may simply be something theologians have speculated on over the centuries."
(2 -- from Jean) "As to limbo - this is was a farcical place where unbaptized babies and adults spent time waiting for the Second Coming as good Christians."The only thing "farcical" is Jean's pretending to be a Catholic.
Eric, you are combining two different "limbos," believe it or not. The first Limbo you mentioned (abode of the souls of the pre-Christian dead) is sometimes called "the Limbo of the Fathers," and it is a matter of doctrine. (It is explicitly mentioned in the Bible as a "place" that Jesus visited to preach about the redemption he had won.)
The second Limbo you mentioned -- one that is only a matter of speculation -- was thought, by some theologians through the centuries, to be an abode of pure natural happiness for the souls of unbaptized children who died before reaching the age of reason. The Church has never taught a doctrine that is explicitly for or against this theory. Pope John Paul II, in his nearly 25-year pontificate, has never spoken/written in favor of the existence of a "Limbo of children."QUOTE (from Jean, denying the existence of Purgatory): "Post-Vatican II this gradually changed to where I have not heard a priest include this 'punishment' in the afterlife."
COMMENT: I believe that the existence of Purgatory is an article of faith, declared infallibly at an ecumenical council. The fact that you "have not heard a priest" mention it, Jean, doesn't mean that it does not exist. It means that your priests have been failing you (not to mention failing the "poor souls"). One has to wonder if you never noticed that November 2 is still "All Souls Day" and that most Masses celebrated in your parish church, throughout the year, are for the repose of souls that may be in Purgatory. (Why would the Church celebrate Mass for them if the souls of all who die go directly to heaven?) Moreover, before you made your comment about priests and Purgatory, Eric had already posted these words: "Purgatory is still a doctrine of the faith and is covered in paragraphs 1030-1032 in the Catechism." After reading that, Jean, didn't you look up Purgatory in your Catechism? Or do you even own a Catechism?
QUOTE (from Jean): "New ball game - new rules and thoughts added and some older ones set aside or dropped. ... Many traditionalists here will quote standard old time religious stuff that dates from medieval times when the church held the laity in fear and power. ... I am a FREE Christian following in the footsteps of Christ to the best of my ability. I was shown the path of the Catholic church during my lifetime."
COMMENT: And, assuming you ever became a genuine Catholic, you have now left the Catholic Church -- by your own admission. You are now the minister and sole congregant of a protestant denomination that you call the "FREE Christian" church. [A person who is Catholic is not "free" to believe or act as he/she pleases. St. Peter and the apostles (and their successors) were given the power to bind and loose ("free") Catholics. Poor Monsieur Jean! You have been coming here for more than three years, and you still haven't run out of errors to post.
QUOTE (from Jim): "St. Christopher for travelers was taken back in the early 70's."
COMMENT: Not really, Jim. If you do some investigating, you'll find that there are still many parishes named for St. Christopher. What happened (around 1970) was that the liturgical calendar of the Latin/Western Church was greatly modified. Due to a scarcity of solid evidence about them, quite a few saints from the first millennium were removed from "universal calendar" celebration, but without actually being declared (with certainty) never to have existed.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 07, 2003.
Before October 15th last year I believed that people who believed in Jesus went to be with him immediately after death. I had read a misquote of Paul -- Absent from the body, present with the Lord rather than -- We would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord.My daughter died last October 15th. She was brutally murdered. All of a sudden knowing exact facts became critically important to me. I wanted and want to know where she is and I have come to the belief that she is either 'asleep in God' or 'with God'. Asleep in God probably means that she is unaware but that her soul lives. When Jesus comes she will be called forth like all the rest who have died believing in Jesus. I'd like to find proof that she is already with God.
I'm not a theologian. I am a woman with strong faith who has cause to look more closely at what happens immediately after death than when other members of my family died.
-- Julie Sewell (jsewell46@hotmail.com), April 12, 2003.
Julie,Thank you for sharing the story of your holy cross with us. It helps me stop and see things in better perspective. Your acceptance of the loss of your daughter is heroic, and gives me fitting thoughts for today, Palm Sunday. In her and your pain you join our Redeemer in his passion.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 12, 2003.
Dear Julie,My heart goes out to you over the loss of your daughter. I will remember her, and you, in my prayers. Still, as Christians we know that the loss of one who was close to use, and close to the Lord, is temporary.
The teaching that we are judged at the moment of death, as either saved or lost, is as old as Christianity itself. All Christians accepted this basic truth for more than 1,500 years. The various doctrinal theories about "going to sleep", and awaking at the second coming, are really modern traditions, no more than a couple of hundred years old, and are fraught with problems.
We know that death is, or at least coincides with, the separation of the body and the spirit. We know that the body goes to the grave. We also know that the spirit cannot be contained in a grave, or in any other physical place. We know that the spirit does not have the needs of the physical body. It does not have to eat, to drink, to sleep, to rest, for these are all means of caring for the physical body. Indeed, it is unlikely that the spirit is capable of doing any of these things, including sleeping. And if it could be put to sleep until the second coming of Christ, the question would be - where? What spiritual realm is there, other than heaven and hell, where spirits could "sleep", even if it were possible for them to do so?
The passage you mentioned, 2 Corinthians 5:8, has always been accepted by the Christian Church as a clear dichotomy - a Christian is either in the flesh, which prevents us from being fully united with Christ, or is separated from the flesh, and fully united with Christ. The passage has to be read together with verse 6 to get the complete message ... "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord ... we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord". Paul says it is one or the other - he mentions no "sleeping and waiting stage" in between.
He told the thief on the cross "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Here we see the same teaching that Paul presents. Jesus knows of course that the man's body will be going to the grave; yet He tells him, "today YOU will be with me"; in effect, "You have accepted Me, and are now my follower; therefore when your spirit departs from your body, it will immediately be with Me".
In the story of the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus, walking and talking with Him. These two men of God were apparently alive and well, awake and aware; and we can take them to be representative of all who have "fallen asleep in Christ". They were not in some state of "suspended animation", but were very much animate.
In Luke 16:22 we read "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom". Surely Abraham was in the same place and the same state as Moses and Elijah. The story makes it clear that "Abraham's bosom" is heaven, and the poor man went there immediately at death. It is likewise clear that the rich man in the same story went immediately to hell.
In Hebrews 9:27 we read "it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment". Again, there is no mention of any sort of "resting stage" in between. The sequence is life > death > judgment > heaven or hell.
In Hebrews 12:1, Paul reminds us that "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, so let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely". The Church has always taken this as a reference to the saints who have gone on before us to their eternal reward, who must be not only awake, but conscious of us and our actions. Otherwise Paul would not have referred to them as "witnesses".
Rev 5:8 is similar ... "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints". This passage describes those before the throne of God, not angels but "elders" among the saints, presenting God with the prayers of the saints - our prayers. This shows us that (1) those who have died in God's grace are in heaven; (2) they are active and aware; and (3) they are interactive with us - aware of our needs, and interceding for us.
Peace to you!
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 13, 2003.
In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic Tradition has agreed to call limbus patrum. In Matthew 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet "with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven" (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matthew 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) and in Christ's words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). Saint Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven, Christ "also descended first into the lower parts of the earth", and Saint Peter still more explicitly teaches that "being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit", Christ went and "preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah" (1Peter 3:18-20).
-- Ed Richards (lozt@yahoo.com), April 13, 2003.
What about Ecclesiastes 9:5-6? It says that the dead know nothing? All of their love, envy etc. is gone?Psalms 6:5 says that the dead cannot even remember God?
Job 14:21 says that the dead doesn't even know what becomes of thier children still alive on the earth?
Psalms 146:4 states that at death all thoughts perish.
I am not voiceing an opinion, just giving some Bible references?
On the other side of the spectrum, what about the thief that was crucified with Christ.. Jesus said, "This day you will be with me in Paradise". Also what about Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration?
There are apparently exceptions to the rules. The Bible states that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and after that the judgment. But Enoch and Elijah didn't really die. Enoch walked with GOD and was not.. Elijah was caught up on the fiery chariot...
As a Protestant... I believe in two judgments... once for the saved and one for the lost.. The Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment respectively.
-- Steve (asteelmp6@yahoo.com), November 18, 2003.
The passages you quoted mentioning "the dead" refer to the spiritually dead, that is, the lost - those who are in Hell. Such passages cannot apply to those who are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is Life, and of whom Jesus said "everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" ( John 11:26)
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 18, 2003.
Hello, all! I was just reading through the old threads and found this one, which I discovered had not really produced a viable answer to the young man's question! Here goes... If you are a Christian, you will go to heaven. If you are not, you will go to hell. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. That's what Protestants believe, as best as I can decypher! Sorry for the late response! Joel
-- Joel (stop@blocking.me), December 24, 2003.
you are a Christian, you will go to heaven. If you are not, you will go to hell.Joel, Actually that is not true. If it were, unbaptized infants would go to hell, and Abraham and all Old Testament prophets would be in hell. An all loving God would not allow that to happen. Logically, to go to hell you must willfully turn your back to God (sin). That assumes knowledge of a God and what is sinful.
In Christ, Bill
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 24, 2003.
"If you are a Christian, you will go to heaven. If you are not, you will go to hell. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus."A: So it is your understanding that Christians don't sin? The wages of sin is death whether you are a Christian or not. That's why a Christian must endure in the Christian life until the end if he hopes to be saved. (Matt 10:22; 24:13)
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 24, 2003.
Bill and Paul, please do not respond to Joel. He was permanently banned in 2001 for incessant proselytizing of this kind. All of his current and future messages should be deleted by the moderator.
-- (_@_._), December 24, 2003.