I am concerned about the illegal poaching of endangered sea turtles, especially during Lent. They are killed and eaten by Catholics who mistakenly believe them to be fish. They are reptiles. Why has the Holy See not clarified this misconception?

-- Jennifer Graham (jgraham@tsp-tx.com), March 13, 2003

Answers

There are two separate concerns here. The first is the matter of illegal poaching, which is the responsibility of the government which made the civil laws being violated. This is not the concern of the Holy See, except in the general sense that we should obey lawful authority. But it is certainly not the place of the Vatican to become involved in local environmental enforcement.

The other is the question of whether sea turtles should be considered "meat" or "seafood" in reference to Church disciplines involving abstinence. It's a rather gray area. They certainly are not "fish". But then, we are not required to eat fish. We are allowed many different kinds of "seafood" on days of abstinence. "Meat" usually refers to the meat of mammals, and of birds (poultry). Technically, fish is also "meat", but we are allowed to eat the meat of fishes. So sea turtles fall right on the line, and the Vatican, since it has not made any formal recommendation, apparently allows them to pass as "seafood". The fact that the people in these areas refrain from meat and poultry at the designated times, and eat turtle and "other seafood" instead, indicates that their intent is compliance with Church regulations on fast and abstinence.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 13, 2003.

Jennifer,

This is an illogical concept: Catholics break environmental laws and kill sea turtles during Lent, in order to obey Church laws regarding abstaining from meat. These Catholics must be awfully hungry, as well as skillful, to even find these endangered creatures. It would certainly be easier to whip up a box of mac and cheese on Fridays during Lent!

(I have never tasted any species of turtle in my 44 years of abstaining from meat, and believe I am in the majority of Catholics who observe Church law.)

What evidence (documentation) do you have, Jennifer, to make such a claim against practicing Catholics? Have there been arrests, where religious beliefs are cited as a defense? Or is this just a generalized, unfounded assumption about Catholics?

The Holy Father has already spoken on respecting creation, which comes from God, being good stewards of the earth, etc. I am certain that your heart would be lightened if you research the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The instructions therein provide all Catholics with the rules for abiding by Scripture and Sacred Tradition as we journey here on earth toward our eternal destination.

REGARDING ANIMALS: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 2415: The 7th commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate andother living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; itis limited by concern for the qualityof life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.

2416: Animals are God's creatures. he surrounds them with his providential care. Buy their mere existence they bles him andgive him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentlemeness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417: God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. hence it is legitiamte to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentations on animals, if it remains within reasonable limits, is a morally acceptable practice since it contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418: It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on themthat should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

REGARDING CREATION Paragraph 305: "Jesus asks for childlike abandonment to the providence of our healvenly Father who takes care of his children's smallest need: "Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?'...Your heavenly Father knows that youneed them all. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, all these things shall be yours as well."

307: To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting themwith the responsibility of "subduing" the earth and having dominion over it. God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaboratores with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan b their actions, their prayers, and their sufferings. They then fully become "God's fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom.

REGARDING THE AUTHORITIES IN CIVIL SOCIETY: Paragraphs 2234 and following exort the faithful to obey the just laws of civil authorities, and exorts those in leadership roles to create just laws and to treat all persons equally in dignity.

Rather than typing it all out, which would be lengthy, I encourage you to research these paragraphs if you are sincerely interested.

Perhaps you could quote these Teachings in a letter to the editor of the newspaper where you believe Catholics are killing sea turtles for meat, if you are certain that your allegations are factual. The 8th commandment cautions us not to "bear false witness against" our neighbor, so please don't accuse based upon assumption or heresay, but upon proven, documented cases.

I wish you all success in protecting these marvelous creatures of God!

I also invite you to help us Catholics, also, in the protection of innocent unborn children, mercilessly and violently destroyed in their mothers' wombs each day in the United States, for reasons of convenience, finances, and "choice."

May God bless you, Jennifer!

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 13, 2003.

Dear Anna,

The event which was the subject of the question is a traditional Lenten custom in a number of tropical countries. Here in middle class America it is indeed easier to make mac and cheese. But in an impoverished Caribbean or South American country where the annual income of many people is roughly equivalent to the average weekly income here, it may be easier to go down to the seashore and grab a turtle when they some ashore by the thousands to lay eggs. It is also a lot cheaper, especially if you don't have the price of a box of mac and cheese, or a place to buy it. This annual natural event occurs in the springtime, which makes it coincide with the Lenten season. The people, many of whom seldom have a decent meal, treat this sudden annual appearance of free seafood as a gift from God, like manna from heaven. That's how the natural event and the religious season became intertwined. I don't know if the countries in question have any laws protecting sea turtles, but if they do, they don't enforce them, at least not during Lent.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 13, 2003.

I don't understand the hostile, defensive responses I've been receiving. I don't have a problem with Catholics demonstrating their faith and obedience through abstinence and fasting. I am a Christian, too, although not Catholic. It just strikes me as irresponsible to allow a destructive practice to continue when the solution would be so simple. Why does this upset you so much?

Maybe this is all "urban legend" stuff... Do you know differently? Here's another source... It's a year old, but seems like an ongoing news...

http://www.sltrib.com/2002/Mar/03302002/nation_w/723857.htm

http://sdnp.delhi.nic.in/resources/wildlife/news/enn-18-03-02- turtlemeat.html

-- Jennifer Graham (jgraham@tsp-tx.com), March 13, 2003.

Dear Jennifer,

The point is - it is an environmental problem, not a Church problem. Even if the Pope declared that turtles don't count as "fish", that would not mean that Catholics in those countries would stop eating turtles. Also, as the article you provided states, the brief surge in turtle poaching before Lent is a small part of the overall problem, accounting for a few thousand animals out of the 35,000 poached each year. I'm all in favor of protecting endangered species (though I question how endangered a species is which can be consistently harvested at the rate of 35,000 a year). But if the country in which the problem exists doesn't do anything about it, it's pretty unrealistic to think that the Pope is going to take over the business of protecting turtles.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 13, 2003.

Hi Paul and Jennifer,

Firstly, Jennifer, since I came off sounding hostile to you, please accept my apologies.

Secondly, note that the typing/spelling errors in the Catechism quotes are mine!

If you have the time, please re-read my post, knowing that while I am asking for documentation, and questioning the actual reasons for the alleged poaching, I am also providing you with documentation that the Holy Father has provided explicit, written instruction to the whole world on respect for nature and civil authority. I offered that as my proof of the Holy See's public position on this, not in a hostile defensive sense. Again, I am sorry if I sounded combative.

I've looked at your first link, Jennifer, and here are some exerpts:

"As many as 35,000 sea turtles are poached every year along the Baja California coast, according to Serge Dedina, director of Wildcoast, a conservation group that monitors the turtle population at six locations on the 1,000-mile long Baja Peninsula. Several thousand of those are taken in the weeks leading up to Easter because Catholics who gave up meat for Lent view turtle as fish, Dedina said.

The Vatican hasn't responded to requests by the Sea Turtle Conservation Network of the Californias to declare turtle meat off- limits...As many as 35,000 sea turtles are poached every year along the Baja California coast, according to Serge Dedina, director of Wildcoast, a conservation group that monitors the turtle population at six locations on the 1,000-mile long Baja Peninsula. Several thousand of those are taken in the weeks leading up to Easter because Catholics who gave up meat for Lent view turtle as fish, Dedina said. The Vatican hasn't responded to requests by the Sea Turtle Conservation Network of the Californias to declare turtle meat off- limits

Mexican law provides for prison sentences for people caught poaching or smuggling turtles, but violators are typically fined, said Oswaldo Santillan Langarica, an inspector in Ensenada for the nation's environmental protection agency, Profepa.

Santillan has heard reports of turtle meat being sold for the equivalent of about $10 a pound in the border city of Tijuana, though environmentalists said they have heard of prices twice as high."

May I please clarify a few things?

Catholics don't give up meat for Lent. Lent is period of 40 days during which we abstain from meat on Fridays only. Surely during those Fridays, one may eat fish (but is not obliged to!) We may also eat pasta, rice, bread, vegetables, meatless soups, (or cheese pizza!)

If, as Paul posits, there was a starving population out there before, during or after Lent, and turtles came upon the shore and were eaten by people too poor to buy groceries, I would have a hard time telling them to refrain from this practice.

But the article you referred us to says that Californian and Mexican turtle poachers sell these turtles for $10 to $20 per pound on the black market.

This leaves me to believe that the problem is not Catholics who are abiding by Church regulations during the holy season of Lent, but rather, wealthy, greedy, or gluttonous people who see turtle meat as a delicacy.

I honestly doubt that if the Vatican released a statement recognizing turtles as "meat" rather than "fish," this illegal activity would cease.

It seems to be an issue of profit-making, not religious observance.

The Holy See instructs the faithful on matters of faith and morals.

While the Church's published instruction to be good stewards of God's creation is her moral position by which we must abide, determining whether turtles are "fish" or "meat" doesn't really fall into the category of faith or morals, so the Sea Turtle Conservation Network of Californias are probably not going to be able to get a definitive declaration on this.

Although this may disappoint you in terms of this cause, I hope I've helped you to understand a bit more clearly what Catholics believe and practice concerning Lent, Church teachings, and papal authority.

May God bless you in your efforts to protect his creation. And I am most genuine in inviting you to assist us in obtaining civil laws which protect the unborn child. (There is legislation to protect unhatched sea turtles.) No sarcasm intended.

Your friend in Christ,

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 13, 2003.

(The second URL address could not be found.)

Peace.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 13, 2003.

Just to clarify one thing. This is how it was explained to me whether something is considered meat or not. When the Church says abstain from meat, it includes all warm-blooded animals. While cold- blooded animals (reptiles included) would fall under the fish category.

Anybody feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but that is how I was taught to differentiate the two.

I agree with Paul's remarks about how 35,000 can be poached a year and considered to be an endangered species. And I agree with Anne's remarks that it sounds more like something for profit that Lenten observance. Besides, I have been to Tijuana. It is not a wealthy city.....I have a hard time seeing how the everyday 'Joe' could afford that meat. I surely don't spend anywhere near that much on the meat I bring in my home.

And I second Anne......if you fight for unhatched sea turtles, please help us fight for unborn babies. The prolife movement could use more dedicated people.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 13, 2003.

I believe that you are correct, Isabel, on cold-blooded versus warm-blooded animals. I think that I read this in the (old) Catholic Encyclopedia a couple of years ago.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 14, 2003.

Thanks for the confirmation, John. I was getting a little worried, because I let my son eat fried frog legs once on a Friday during Lent.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 14, 2003.