Hello, I am Catholic and so is my boyfriend. We have recently started talking about marriage. No concrete plans yet, just talk. And I have a huge concern. I have always dreamed of a Catholic religious church wedding. My boyfreind is divorced, but he was never married in a church, nor by a priest. He was young and was married by his ex-wife's brother. Her brother had obtained a marriage license from the court. He is now legally divorced. Can we marry in front of God, since he was never married in a church? Very troubled, Julia

-- Julia Stevenson (juliastevenson2003@yahoo.com), March 06, 2003

Answers

The Church may or may not require submission of information concerning his previous marriage, and the issuance of a decree of nullity (a statement that the original marriage is not recognized as valid). Given the circumstances of that marriage as you described them, I would expect that a decree of nullity, if required at all, would be granted quickly and with a minimum of red tape. So, in the end, I am virtually certain that you will be able to marry in the Church. However, it is essential that you do check with your priest as soon as possible, to see if a decree of nullity is required in your case, so that all possible obstacles will be removed. God bless you.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 06, 2003.

Your situation sounds similar to mine. My husband was married & divorced in '89. When we married in 96, it was by a JP, but just last week we had the marriage blessed in the Catholic church. Turns out we could have married in the church 7 years ago- wish I had known sooner! Talk to your priest, he may have good news for you! :)

Good luck!

Rachael

-- Rachael (Ognollaig@aol.com), March 06, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, Paul.
In replying to Julia, you made the kind of statement that I have seen you make now three times during the months you have been coming to the forum. You wrote [with my emphasis added]:
"The Church may or may not require submission of information concerning his previous marriage, and the issuance of a decree of nullity (a statement that the original marriage is not recognized as valid)."

The part I emphasized, Paul, is something that conflicts with what I have always read, so I'd like to ask you to expand on it, if you have something official to support it. What I'm driving at is this:

When two people take marriage vows, the Church presumes (until the contrary is proved) that they have validly married each other. My belief is that only a tribunal, having considered documentary, evidence, can rule as to whether or not a valid marriage exists.

Therefore, I don't understand how you can say that the "Church ... may not require submission of information." I think that the Church always requires such a submission. Please lead me, if you can, to documentary evidence that the work of a tribunal is optional in some cases (such as perhaps that of Julia's friend). [Hmmm, I just had a feeling of deja vu, because I think that I may have asked you to do this once before, but you must not have seen my request.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 06, 2003.

do you really want the truth or do you just want someone to tell you everything will be alright because the bible is truth.. so i would like to give you hope but also give you truth.. it has been said that some of the things i say is aginest the catholic church and that is not my intentions at all, so i will not answer your question but i will let the bible do it.. remember this is directly out of the bible word for word buy the Apostle Paul and is not my opion but Gods, so if any argue with what you are about to read their argument is not with me but with GOD.

"Haven't you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together. lET MAN NOT separate." Matth.19:4-6

"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail." "Anyone who DIVORCES his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Luke16:18 "Anyone who DIVORCES his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." Mark.10:11-12

by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage." Rom.7:2 "A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, ...." 1 Cor.7:39

"To the married I give this command ( not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must NOT divorce his wife." 1 Cor.7:10-11

"The Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his." "So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. I hate divorce, says the Lord." Mal.2:14-16

-- Jason E Kennon (jasonkennon@yahoo.com), March 07, 2003.

Hello, Julia.
Please ignore the comments of Jason Kennon.
Unlike you and me, he is not Catholic, so he does not understand what the Church founded by Jesus teaches. He wrongly believes in a "Bible-only" theology.
God bless you. JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 07, 2003.

Dear Jason,

The Catholic Church does not recognize divorce, because of the very verse you quoted. The exact same verse also explains and supports the practice of annulment. "what GOD has joined together, man must not separate". That's why divorce is not recognized - it claims to break a bond, to separate something that was once truly joined. Annulment, in contrast, seeks to determine whether a divinely ordained bond ever existed. If it did, then it cannot be broken by anything except the death of one party. If it didn't, then obviously one cannot separate what never was joined together in the eyes of God in the first place.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 07, 2003.

Paul, can you please scroll up to my message dated March 6 and read it? I asked you for some information, and I am really anxious to have an answer from you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 07, 2003.

Hi John,

Sorry I missed your previous post. What I was referring to is the fact that the Church has already made formal declarations regarding the criteria required for validity. The purpose of the tribunal is to investigate individual cases where some questions exist, to determine the relevant specifics of the case, and interpret them in light of existing canon law. However, when the nature of the ceremony is such that the resultant marriage is de facto invalid, and no extenuating nor complicating factors exist, then investigation by a tribunal may not be necessary. If a man "marries" a thirteen year old girl, the Church does not "presume they are validly married until a tribunal determines otherwise". The only relevant fact is her age, and it doesn't take a tribunal to establish that. That girl is unmarried, de facto, and when she finally grows up she is free to marry without any decrees or official determinations. Similarly, if a person were forced to "marry" while a gun was held to their head, such "marriage" would be invalid, de facto, and no official action would be required to establish that. These are of course extreme examples, which I offer just to make the point. Likewise however, two Catholics who marry before a civil magistrate are not "presumed by the Church to be validly married". On the contrary, they are formally considered by the Church to be living in an overt state of fornication. It does not require a tribunal investigation to establish that. It has been pre- established by Church law. If such a couple subsequently gets divorced, the Church would see no impediment to either of them subsequently marrying, since both of them were unmarried in the eyes if the Church, de facto, both before and subsequent to their civil ceremony. Now a priest, uncertain of the circumstances, might well submit such a case to the tribunal for verification. On the other hand, their parish priest,if he knew them well and was personally familiar with the specifics of the case, might very well agree to preside at the subsequent marriage of either party, without involving the tribunal.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 08, 2003.

Jmj
Thanks very much, Paul, for that full reply. It was just the kind of information I was looking for.

After giving a series of examples, your conclusion was this:
"Now a priest, uncertain of the circumstances, might well submit such a case to the tribunal for verification. On the other hand, their parish priest, if he knew them well and was personally familiar with the specifics of the case, might very well agree to preside at the subsequent marriage of either party, without involving the tribunal."

That is the nub of the problem for me. For almost 20 years, I have been hearing and reading much about marriage/nullity matters, and I have never come across anything official that states that a parish priest can licitly make such a decision on his own. That is why I need to ask you if you can give me the name of a Vatican document (or the numbers of canons) that would provide an official approval of the extra-tribunal handling of certain specified nullity cases. Unless I can see something official and unmistakably clear, I would be forced to believe that such handling by a parish priest would be illicit, potentially dangerous [potentially declaring nullity despite validity], and against due process [absence of some witnesses' testimony, decisions without appeals, etc.].

You stated: "... when the nature of the ceremony is such that the resultant marriage is de facto invalid, and no extenuating nor complicating factors exist, then investigation by a tribunal may not be necessary."
My beliefs have been that only a tribunal, not a single man, can decide whether a "union" is "de facto invalid," and that only a tribunal can decide if "extenuating [or] complicating factors exist."

You mentioned the case of "marriage" by a 13-year-old girl. It is true that canon 1073 refers to an impediment that prohibits the marriage of a girl before age 14. However, canon 1078 allows for a bishop to grant a dispensation from this impediment. I believe that it is for a tribunal, not a parish priest, to determine whether such a dispensation was granted.

You mentioned the case of someone being "forced to 'marry' while a gun was held to [his/her] head." The truth or falsity of such an allegation, I believe, is something for a tribunal, not a parish priest, to determine.

You mentioned the case of "two Catholics who marry before a civil magistrate." Once again, I believe that not a priest, but only a tribunal, can take into account testimony from (perhaps) multiple witnesses as to whether or not the two people really were "Catholics" at the time they went to the civil magistrate. It is not unreasonable to fear that both may have, for a time, defected from the Church, possibly explaining why they went to the magistrate, rather than having a church wedding.

As you can see, the three examples you provided are not clear-cut, as they may have seemed to you until now. And that is why I would have to see an official Vatican document giving parish priests the power, in special (enumerated) cases, to bypass the tribunal process.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 09, 2003.

dear paul

hello Paul i count it as a blessing to be able to talk to you, first of all here is what the APOSTLE PAUL had said in his letter (or epistle)to the corinthian church .....1st Corinthians Chapter 6 verse 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. so then god recognized a marriage with a harlot and joined them together and the two becoume one flesh.(is a harlot not a sinner)

and he also said in a letter to the hebrews chapter 13 verse 4 "Marriage is honourable in all and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers GOD will judge".... so you cant say god don`t honor all marriages, because he does. paul said it, not me i am just following the word of GOD "what GOD has joined together, man must not separate". you said also explains and supports the practice of annulment. but if that is all you got to go on then i will explain this to you there is some people god will not join together because GOD will not lie or go back on his word; for an example if you are a man married to a woman and then GOD had made you one flesh and then she goes to a priest an gets an annullement, that is a man and he is not GOD, so he can not separate them' but lets say he still gives them an annullement and then she tries to marry another man GOD will not join them together for she is still one flesh with the husband the priest said GOD never honored but that priest must be careful does he think he can fill the shoes of GOD and and judge wether GOD honors marriage in all (un less GOD had made them one flesh with another) so there for they can only be separated in death

and this also is seen when John the baptist sayes it is not lawfull for king herod to be married to herodias because she was already married to philip and you all know that they were not marrying in the will of GOD because it was against GODS law because he was her uncle but john the baptist said GOD still honored there marriage, paul had said marriage is honourable among all why must we not listen to paul for what he wrote is from jesus

-- Jason Kennon (jasonkennon@yahoo.com), March 09, 2003.

Dear Jason,

"you cant say god don`t honor all marriages, because he does"

A: Yes, God does honor all genuine marriages. The question which sometimes has to be addressed is whether a particular union was in fact a genuine marriage.

"if you are a man married to a woman and then GOD had made you one flesh and then she goes to a priest an gets an annullement, that is a man and he is not GOD, so he can not separate them"

A: If God has made you one flesh, you cannot get an annulment. That is precisely the point. An annulment does not separate two people. It simply states that for very serious reasons they were never validly joined together in the first place. In this way it upholds the Biblical teaching "what GOD has joined together, man must not separate".

"paul had said marriage is honourable among all why must we not listen to paul for what he wrote is from jesus"

A: The fact that whatsoever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven is also from Jesus. The fact that whoever listens to the church is listening to Jesus is also from Jesus. The fact that the Holy Spirit guides the Church to all truth is also from Jesus. It seems you are very selective about which words of Jesus you accept and which of His words you reject or ignore. Your attempts to use scripture in support of your own personal ideas are invalid. You have rejected the only means of understanding scripture - the teaching of God's Church - and therefore your guesses reguarding the meaning of the scriptures are no more valid than your guesses regarding marriage.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 09, 2003.

I can not believe you even think such things, you try to change the meaning of what jesus said whatsoever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. then you take this and say the catholic church is able to make the rules that we are to live by and you say GOD will honor that! even if it goes aginest what the Apostle Paul had said I THINK NOT and if you say the HOLY SPIRT guides the preists and tells them to go against pauls teachings then the spirit that is in them is not the true spirit of GOD and if you say the church has the right to change the word of GOD and it will be bound in heaven then you are not the church that JESUS spoke of, because the true church will not go against the word of GOD, nither will the HOLY SPIRIT go against the word of GOD but i will explain the verse; "whatsoever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven" to you The door to the Kingdom of God has a very special key. It is the key of prayer. What is the Kingdom of God? It is anywhere (not just in the catholic church) the King of the Kingdom of God is allowed to reign and rule. Jesus Christ has been given all power and dominion in this world and in the next: Eph:1:21: "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:" Every area of the church is under His authority, and so that is why His power and authority can be incorporated into the church through the key of prayer. We can be used by God to bring in His Kingdom through prayer. We know that there is ten-fold power in even two people agreeing in prayer. How much more power is generated when we come into agreement with almighty God through prayer. The Lord Jesus Christ has given us the Keys of Binding and loosing through prayer. This means that what is bound in heaven can be also bound on earth through our prayers, and what is loosed in heaven can be loosed on earth through our prayers in the Name of Jesus Christ! Hallelujah! What is bound in heaven? The answer is hatred, lying tongues, strife, violence, jealousy, and the list can go on and on. What is loosed in heaven? The answer is love, joy, peace, kindness, truth, praise, worship, faith and the list can go on ad infinitum. This power and authority has been bestowed upon the heirs of salvation! What a privilege and what an honor. Eph:1:22: "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church," Jesus said that if we ask "in His Name"; He will do it. What does "in His Name" mean? Strong's says it means: The word "name" is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellencies, deeds etc. Many times we use "in Your Name" and "in Thou Name" with the wrong spirit and heart. First and foremost our prayers must be filled with God's love, faith and hope. WE ARE TOLD TO: 1 Thes. 5:17, "Pray without ceasing." That we are to pray in every situation. WE ARE ALSO TOLD TO PRAY "FOR" ALL CHRISTIANS: Ephesians 6:18, "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;" WE ARE TOLD TO PRAY FOR OUR LEADERS, OUR FAMILIES AND ALL THE UNSAVED. IN SHORT, WE ARE TO PRAY FOR EVERYONE AND OVER EVERYTHING. If we pray "for" our brothers and sisters in the Lord; we will reap prayer for ourselves as we reap what we sow. This type of prayer will also bring harmony and unity and God's glorious purposes into the lives of His people. We should understand that when we pray; we are praying according to the will of God when we use the phrase "in Thy or Your Name". Some say that using that term is a faith killer, but I believe it is a faith BUILDER! Why? Because when we come into agreement with the King of this universe; we obtain His power and authority in our prayer. We gain His stamp of approval and His royal decree. In ancient times, the King put a special seal upon those things that He had approved, and when we pray "in The Name of the King of kings"; we have His seal upon our request.

Joh:14:13: "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." Jesus teaches us How to Pray: 1.) We enter His throneroom through the gates of thanksgiving and the courts of praise. Psalms 100:4, "Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name." 2.) We pray unto God alone and not to be noticed or to advertise our "holiness". M't:6:5: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." When we are acknowledged by others; then we lose our reward from God. M't:6:6: "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." 3.) Our prayer should be sincere and from our hearts even though the words may be few. M't:6:7: "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

The words of our mouth are very important as they hold the key to prayer. What we say is what we will get both good or evil. Proverbs 18:21, "Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof." God knows what we need, and He wants us to express our needs unto Him for His answer. Jesus Christ asked the people that He healed what they were wanting from Him. He knew everything, but the King needs an official request before He can put His seal upon the need.

M't:6:8:"Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." Jesus being the Master Teacher of all time, gave us a model or example to go by when His disciples asked Him how to pray. A good teacher always makes it easy for the student to learn the lesson, and that is why Jesus always brought down His great Truths to our level. He used ordinary, everyday analogies to explain His Kingdom to us. He is the greatest Teacher of all time. Jesus Christ is not telling us "what to pray" but "how to pray". Teaching us how to pray is superior to teaching what to pray as is teaching a person how to plant a garden is superior to giving a person some of the vegetables from our own garden. Jesus said that we were to pray after the manner that He taught. He wants us to form our own words from our own hearts based on the example that He set forth. He wants to have fellowship with His people through prayer, and He doesn't need to have a rote prayer spoken to Him that has been memorized. He wants to have real communion (closeness) with His people, and He wants to hear from their own lips the adoration, proclamations, petitions and needs that they express in this love relationship. 4.) The Famous Lord's Prayer starts with adoration to God and a declaration of His holiness: M't:6:9: "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." 5.) Jesus makes a proclamation that God's Kingdom come; His will be done on this earth as it is in heaven. That is powerful! In our prayers; we can proclaim God's Kingdom wherever we go. We should pray that the Holy Spirit will guide us each day in all that we do, say and pray. When we pray according to the will and way of God, then we will have the great benefit of His great seal of approval on our requests. Our faith will increase as we know that the King of kings and Lord of lords will be at work to bring His Kingdom into being through our prayer. M't:6:10: "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." 6.) Next we just give a petition for our needs that day. We do not have to be burdened about our future as each day is new and separate, and we should seek and pray to God each and every day. This method of prayer reveals to us that we cannot "store up" our prayers for a rainy day. We need to have fellowship and koinonia with God each day. Just as the manna from heaven couldn't be stored up; we cannot store up our prayer times or our Bible reading times for another day. We need God's fellowship and His Word each and every day! M't:6:11: "Give us this day our daily bread." 7.) The Lord is not only concerned with our vertical relationship, but He wants us to be a vital part of His whole family. This means that our relationship with Him and with others must be right. He wants us to forgive even as we desire God's forgiveness toward ourselves. If we do not forgive others; we are binding God's forgiveness toward ourselves. Unforgiveness is a sin, and it blocks the prayers of God's people. It is so important that the Lord included forgiveness in His model prayer. We must forgive others in order to have a right relationship with almighty God and to be able to participate in His earthly ministry through our prayers. M't:6:12: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." 8.) We need to ask for God's protection from temptations from the satanic realm, and we end with a declaration of God's mighty power and glory! Amen means "so be it". M't:6:13: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." 9.) Our prayers need to be consistent and persevering as Jesus' parable indicates. It is with faith and patience that we receive the promises of God. Many people give up after several prayers, and they think "It isn't gong to happen" or "I'm wasting my time". Many times they quit right before the tremendous breakthrough. God wants us to learn patience in our praying, and He knows that some prayers take time due to the particular need being put before Him. If God is dealing with a person or persons; He has to patiently wait for them to change as He does not "force" people to choose the right way, but He gently speaks to them and draws them. We need to learn to be patient, faithful and persevering in prayer: Lu:11:5: "And He said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;" Lu:11:6: "For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?" Lu:11:7: "And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee." Lu:11:8: "I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth." 10.) The Lord wants us to have faith when we ask for something that is of Him and according to His will. He gives the example of an earthly father giving a stone for bread when his son asks him for bread. Bread, fish and eggs are items that are good for our physical health, and how much better is being given the Holy Spirit to our Spiritual health and well-being. Lu:11:9: "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." Lu:11:10: "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Lu:11:11: "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?" Lu:11:12: "Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?" Lu:11:13: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?" Our Lord Jesus Christ has taught us how to pray in these verses, and He wants us to know that He has good gifts for us as we ask, seek and knock at the door of the King. The Kingdom of God has a large door that all may pass through, but the Key to the door of the Kingdom is heartfelt, faith-filled, and persistent prayer. God has everything that we need for an abundant life and all Godliness, but He requires that we come to Him in prayer to receive. He wants to hear from us. He wants for us to open the door of our own hearts to Him through the key of prayer. The same key opens the door to the Kingdom of God and to the our hearts. Revelation 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." In short, the King of the Kingdom of God is standing and waiting at the door of our hearts to come to us and have fellowship and share His Kingdom with us. Let us open the door with the wonderful key of prayer.

-- Jason Kennon (jasonkennon@yahoo.com), March 12, 2003.

sorry, but this is not an answer to the last question. I am in a situation where I am a Catholic and want to marry a divorced Christian military man. He and I are very strong believers in the teachings of Christ. Unforunately his marriage dissolved over the years. He was married for just over 20 years. He is now aged 42. I want to know if annulment is acceptable when one marries so young and is objected to any unforseen stressful environments, such as the active service provides. I also have dreamed about being married in my church and I feel very disillusioned if I was not able to marry in the Catholic Church, when he is not Catholic and I have never been married. Please give some advice to me and some contacts so that he and I can get on with our lives in Christs name... Nicole

-- nicole edwards (cosmoskarl@yahoo.com), March 13, 2003.

no it will not be a valid marriage god will not join together 2 people when one allready been joined to another,one must die before the other is able to marry agin, but if the woman he was married to before was married before they got married, then his marriage might not have been valid in his first marriage, but if his ex was not married before they got married then your marriage to him would be adultry, but most people that ask these questions know this allready but is just looking for some one to tell them it will be OK so i say pray seek not to be married and some day the man god chose for you will come along good luck and my god be with you

-- jason kennon (jasonkennon@yahoo.com), December 14, 2003.

Listen to Paul, not Jason (although Jason can quote from the scriptures that he seems to have read, he doesn't understand the true meaning of Life in Jesus's teachings).

Jason is not a catholic. The Catholic Church does not scare people into following rules like Jason - who mentions selected texts from the bible literally (including the Old Testament) and ignores the Main teachings of Christ, and misses the point totally, despite Paul explaining the truth clearly.

You should read the discussions on: http://www.oncecatholic.org as well if you want a clear answer - don't listen to people who are not fit to answer your questions.

This will get you some correct and true answers. Good luck and may God Bless you and Jesus guide you.

Peter

-- Peter Pace (peter2kpace@yahoo.co.uk), November 21, 2004.