I was raised Catholic and am interested in marrying a wonderful man, who happens to be a divorced Pagan. My parents would like to see me get married in a Catholic church. I'm not sure this is possible. Any thoughts?

-- michelle (rgrmitch@aol.com), February 25, 2003

Answers

For one thing, he'll have to look in getting an annulment. Even if he was married by a justice of the peace, if he was a pagan at the time, it was a marriage recognized by the Church. Are you sure you want to spend rest of your life with someone who doesn't share your religious beliefs in the least? You might end up leaving your faith, and although it seems that he is wonderful now, when children come along and you are arguing about religion, things won't seem so wonderful. Many times it's a couple's faith that holds them together in rough times. I would talk to your priest and seriously consider what you are contemplating.

-- Christina (introibo2000@nospam.com), February 25, 2003.

Michelle,

Is this man "interested in marrying" also?

How open is he to making vows before your God, in your Church, promising to receive as many children as your God deigns to send you, promising to bring them up in your Faith? These are promises made to God during a Catholic wedding.

He's o.k. with all this?

My best wishes to you. May the Peace of Christ be with you.

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 25, 2003.

Michelle,

Here's some straight talk - where is your head, woman?

When you say you were "raised Catholic" does that mean you are no longer Catholic in your beliefs? Does your faith matter to you at all?

By "pagan", do you mean wiccan? neo-pagan? what? Are you fully aware of all of his beliefs? Most pagans are not like atheists who don't believe in God. They actually are idol worshippers (if they worship the earth and things of the earth) or worse, they knowigly worship Satan (which is the case with mature Wiccans who have actually discovered the real source to their beliefs - but continue to pretend they don't worship Satan).

As a pagan, your prospective husband is directly violating the 10 commandments (thou shall not worship false gods) and is, by the nature of his choice, doomed to spend eternity in Hell - unless he repents and turns to God who can save him.

And what about later in life when your faith starts to become very important to you? And do you plan on having children? Would you want a pagan teaching "truth" to your children? Everything you consider moral is likely to be very relative to him - the two of you can never agree on most matters of importance because you'll have completely different standards. What if he dooms your children to Hell by drawing them into his beliefs and sin?

I can't emphasize enough of knowing the implications of paganism, Michelle. Please do your research and really think this through.

You probably only came to this forum to ask if you could get a priest to marry you and won't want to read my little rant here, but I'm hoping you stick through and at least consider some of what I've said.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), February 25, 2003.

Thank you all for your insightful answers. I appreciate the advice about annullment. I had not realized that it would apply even to someone non-Catholic who was not married in the Catholic church.

I appreciate the concerns of those writing about my children's souls and that of my significant other. We are still discussing children, but likely won't have any since he already has two and I don't have a burning maternal desire for them.

As for my significant other, his religion which he simply defines as "Pagan" is his own. I respect that and he respects mine. We discuss differences in religions often, but it is just that - a discussion. I believe that his path is valid and one of many including Catholicism. But I know many on this board believe differently. I thank you for your concern nonetheless.

Thank you. -michelle

-- michelle (rgrmitch@aol.com), February 25, 2003.

By the way, going into a Catholic marriage with the intent to never have children (unless you are obviously physically incapable of doing so) is grounds for annulment right there. I wonder how seriously you take your religion.....

-- Christina (introibo2000@nospam.com), February 25, 2003.

Christina,

Thank you for bringing up an aspect I hadn't thought of. I didn't know that marriage had the absolute requirement to have kids. Does this mean that only Catholics with children are "serious Catholics?" Please help me understand.

-michelle

-- michelle (rgrmitch@aol.com), February 25, 2003.

Hi Michelle.

No, the idea here about marriage in the Church is that if you are young and healthy (i.e. you could have kids if you tried), and you get married, you should be open to the possibility that new life can come from your marital union.

This means that your love, your marriage is total: you're not just getting married for the sake of convenience and sex.

The reason is the Church is serious about marriage - it should be much more noble and nuturing, positive and generous than the typical "civil marriage which really doesn't care what couples do.

And psychologically marriage that is open to new life is also much more fulfilling. No chemicals, no treating fertility as a disease, no cold calculations about children as though they were commodities (or yourselves as commodities...)

Catholic marriage is really the most rational way too. No one is asking you to have 25 kids. But should you get pregnant, don't run from the responsibility because children make the couple closer...

In the end, when you're 80 it won't be your portfolio or toys or fantastic vacations or big house or 4th car than tucks you into bed and kisses you on the cheek with a loving "Goodnight Mom, I love you".

:-) So cheer up and don't be afraid!

God bless, Joe

-- Joe Stong (joestong@yahoo.com), February 25, 2003.

Christina are you a divorcee youself? You sound awfully bitter. Your negative clinical text book replies leave me cold and reminds me of other more puritan fundamentalist approaches. If I was you and wanted to help others find their faith I wouldnt continue along your lines. Learn to find a human side to presenting our faith, do not bend the truth but try and find answers rather than find just faults. If my words are to blunt I make no apologies but Ive seen too many genuine intrested non belivers driven away from such coldness.

Michelle clearly you face big challenges, as has been so keenly outlined above, but I cant believe my fellow Catholics are so judgemental and quick to condemn others. I wish you all the best, I hope that you try to grow closer to Christ and be a great example to your husband to be. Best wishes and God Bless

Be Not Afraid

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 25, 2003.

Kiwi,

Thank you for for your words of encouragement. They are appreciated.

Be well, michelle

-- michelle (rgrmitch@aol.com), February 26, 2003.

Kiwi, I, cold and harsh? Excuse me? Bending the truth? How am I bending the truth? I am concerned that Michelle might make a huge mistake, a)by marrying someone who doesn't share her Faith and b)by entering into an invalid marriage to boot. I'm concerned about her soul! Puritanical, give me a break! No, I am not a a divorcee - happily married with 6 children, thank you.

-- Christina (introibo2000@nospam.com), February 26, 2003.

Christina I was not saying you were "bending the truth", I was merely saing that you could present our faith with a more human touch, not a distant superior tone but still hold true to the truth as given to us. I found your replies cold from what was a very personal question, listen to your tone, no hello, no welcome-just straight into the negatives, the fear, the gloom and doom, YUK.

"For one thing, he'll have to look in getting an annulment. Even if he was married by a justice of the peace, if he was a pagan at the time, it was a marriage recognized by the Church. Are you sure you want to spend rest of your life with someone who doesn't share your religious beliefs in the least? You might end up leaving your faith, and although it seems that he is wonderful now, when children come along and you are arguing about religion, things won't seem so wonderful. Many times it's a couple's faith that holds them together in rough times. I would talk to your priest and seriously consider what you are contemplating."

You follow up this bit of love and compassion with....

"By the way, going into a Catholic marriage with the intent to never have children (unless you are obviously physically incapable of doing so) is grounds for annulment right there. I wonder how seriously you take your religion..... "

-- Christina (introibo2000@nospam.com), February 25, 2003.

Poor Michelle never even said she would never had children, I find your approach Puritanical , certainly not Catholic to me. I dont like, I think it drives people away and I think its destructive.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 26, 2003.

Christina,

You are very strong in your language even though you do mean well. Remember we must help others to follow their faith, and to guide them with kind words. Don't say things like "I wonder how seriously you take your religion....."

Help them take their religion seriously by guiding them on the teachings of the Church.

God bless you Christina.

Michelle, as far as I know, you can marry a pagan, but you have to be very careful about that. Your husband has to be open to a Catholic marriage and all that entails, which means being open to the Church's teaching on sex, and be open to raising the kids as Catholics.

Your husband and you have to be open to having kids in the marriage. That means, every time you have sex, you have to be open to God's gift. You can practice Natural Family Planning to space kids apart, but you cannot use artifical contraceptives, as that is a mortal sin.

Don't forget that the marriage may not last (seperation, divorce, your death, etc.), and if he gets custody of any kids you may have, will he raise them as Catholics? That's a huge risk right there, that you want to give a lot of thought over.

It best to talk these things over with a priest. Marriage is not impossible with this person, but he does have to be open to certain aspects of the Catholic faith for you to marry him.

Pray for his conversion everyday, and ask others to pray for him. I will pray for his conversion.

God bless, and if you have anymore questions, or want a clarification of what I have said, then please ask.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), February 26, 2003.

Gordon,

Thank you for your thoughtful insights on the various challenges I will be facing. I also appreciate your encouragement and point of view.

There is one thing I cannot do though. I respect my intended's beliefs and while they are not right for me, I respect that he finds a connection to God through them. I pray for guidance, help, wisdom to navigate these challenges together, but not for his conversion to catholicism. I appreciate that your beliefs are different than mine on this, but just wanted to express this.

Thank you once again for your advice and insight. -michelle

-- michelle (rgrmitch@aol.com), February 26, 2003.

> "I pray for guidance, help, wisdom to navigate these challenges together, but not for his conversion to catholicism."

Praying for his conversion can never be wrong, for God himself will be the answer to your prayers, and God can never make a wrong choice.

Respecting someone's beliefs does not mean that we cannot hope for something better for that person.

If we never prayed for people's conversion, the Catholic faith would not even exist today.

Catholics have to pray for the conversion of pagans, for they worship a false God, and that is a offense to the true God.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), February 27, 2003.

hi Michelle, I hope you don't mind another voice... our call as Catholics is to come into intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, to get to know the will of God the Father. Our goal as Catholics is to grow in our faith in God and to come into living everyday for Him. Your life eventually will go this way,and it seems it will be as a time-bomb ready to go off if you marry this guy.

To be serious about your Catholicism means you will advance in your realtionship with God. Without this common bond with your beloved husband, your marriage's chance of survival are minimum. Take a look at it strong and hard BEFORE you say "I do".

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), February 27, 2003.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I hope to continue to strengthen my connection with God, and hope my intended will do the same, in his own way.

I know we have some difficult challenges ahead of us. With God's help, we will get through them and be strengthened.

Be well, michelle

-- michelle (rgrmitch@aol.com), February 27, 2003.

Hi, Michelle

Just another Catholic opinion. I think Christina didn't beat around the bush, but gave good advice.

She takes her Catholic relegion very serious, and is experienced with many years of marriage, and six children.(even though she is a very young Lady still in her thirty's) where some of the opinions you got, the people are not married, and never have been. I also agree with Christina that sometimes it is the couples faith that holds the marriage together. Without faith in God, you have nothing realy! I have 12 years of experience in marriage and my wife is only 31 years old. Your marriage grows stronger ever prayer you pray.(God willing)

Gordon, You told Christine,"Rember we must help others to follow their faith, and to guide them with kind words.." Gordon when you tell people that you think I might live in a mental institution is this being kind.?Sometimes you should let other people give there opinions without cutting them off. There are many problems that people have to deal with that come up in life in marriages that she is more aware of than you.

Even though you were never married you should still be able to have a idea, after all it was only a few months ago that we were praying for you in this forum when you're girlfriend dropped you like a "hot potato"!

Hi, Kiwi

Hows life friend?

You said,,"Poor Michelle never even said she would never had children, I find your approach Puritanical".

Well its true she never said this, but she sure didn't hint otherwise wouldn't you agree? I would of taken that comment the same way as Christina did.

This is what Michelle said on Feb-25.".....I appreciate the concerns ot those writing about my childrens souls and that of my signiificant other. WE are still discussing children, but likeley won't have any since he already has two and I don't have a burning maternal desire for them".See what I mean Kiwi?

Michelle, I will rember you in my prayers, but if you realy love him, and want to live forever with your man, than you should get on your knees and beg God to give him the Grace to become a Catholic. The deeper you get into Catholicism(like Christina is) the more you will understand what she was telling you.

If you don't understand, thats fine, just have the faith to pray about it and ask God to give you the Grace to understand. I think if you pray in front of the Blessed Sacrament that you will get your answers. Just listen with your mind and be open about it, and God will give you stronger faith, and then you will be praying for him to become a Catholic.

If you realy understood than why wouldn't you?

God bless you and your man, and Christina, Kiwi, and Gordin.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), March 06, 2003.

Hi David I hope you are well, rugby world cup this year! Il keep you up to date with the All Blacks progess to victory ;-). I think perhaps I overreacted to Christina's coments , its just the tone not the content that bugged me.

I think one of the attractions of our church is not only our history and tradition but also our caring humanistic approach. The blending of the two is what makes us Catholic, IMO part of what it means to be Catholic was missing from Christina.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), March 07, 2003.

Once again, I'm SHOCKED by what people say. For one, Pagans (with the exception of Satanists) do NOT, under any circumstances, worship the Christian concept of Satan, nor do they worship any personified evil. Get that through your skulls!

Now, Michelle, if you truly love this man, you should marry him. Don't let religion, or your past, stand in your way. Love is one of the most important, if not the MOST important, thing in a person's life, and you should always grab ahold of true love, no matter what. Don't let your parents tell you where to get married if what they say may sever your relationship. Sorry if I offended anyone.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 11, 2003.

HEDONISM is not our religion Shane X. Love has nothing to do with it. People fall in love all the time, even when they are committed to others or are in religious vows. Love doesn't = marriage. Love is a part of it, but also affection, friendship, etc... One has to be free to enter into marriage. If one is previously married they cannot enter into another marriage without an annulment.

-- Patrick (patrick@truth.com), March 16, 2003.

I am a pagan who was raised in the Roman Catholic Church. Unless your significant other is planning on being confirmed in the Catholic Church, I don't think that a Catholic wedding is even possible.

I'd also like to reply to those who were portraying paganism in a Satanic light. The word "pagan" is translated as meaning "one who is from the country-side". The word "heathen" literally means "From the hearth"... Unfortunately, when the Catholic church began, in order to CONVERT the pagans of the country-side that were practicing their own form of spirituality, they portrayed them as evil and Satan- worshippers who were condemned to hell. There is a major problem with that statement...PAGANS DON'T BELIEVE IN SATAN...SATAN IS A CHRISTIAN CONCEPT. You made him up...so you will have to deal with him. We are a NATURE LOVING group of people who want nothing but peace and love for the world. However, the Roman Catholic church decided it was OK to mutilate non-christians during the CRUSADES because it was in the name of God...As far as I knew,...one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shall not kill"...I don't believe it's "Thouh shall not kill unless it's in My name". Therefore, when you speak of pagans breaking the commandments because we are idol- worhippers...you are being hypocritical.

I have much more that I can say, but it would probably be pointless.

"A closed mind is a WONDERFUL thing to waste"

-- Phoenix Shadowdancer (phoenix_shadowdancer@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.

Yes, continuing your diatribe would indeed be pointless, as was the part of it you unleashed. The Church is well aware that paganism and satanism are distinct entities. The Church never portrayed pagans as Satan-worshippers. In fact, the Church is quite well informed as to just which false "gods" any given pagan sect worships.

As for Catholics, we too are a nature loving (but not nature worshipping) group of people who likewise want peace and love for the world. Only, we know the source of genuine peace and love. Without God, only an illusion of peace and love is possible, for God is love.

The fact that Christians are sinners doesn't make us hypocritical, since we acknowledge that we are sinners, and are seeking healing in sinful areas of our lives. There is also nothing hypocritical about denouncing idol-worship, since it is an ungodly practice which can only lead to the ultimate destruction of individuals who engage in it. You don't believe in Satan, and Satan is thrilled that you don't. What better position of attack for a deadly enemy than to have the victim ignorant of his very existence. Not believing in gravity won't cause you to float away. Objective reality is independent of belief.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 13, 2003.

i'm not trying to start a religious war here-- but i am a Wiccan High Priestess and an ordained minister. a lot of the people who posted here (to the lady who was asking about marrying a divorced pagan man)- have no idea what they are talking about when they try to explain paganism or the wiccan religion. it's ok to speak about what you KNOW- but you shouldn't make up things about subjects you have no experience in. if anyone wants any pagan questions answered i will be happy to help you. but please- don't bash me because of my beliefs-- i wouldn't do that to you.

blessed be- Rev. falonMOON

-- Rev. falonMOON (falonmoon@yahoo.com), August 02, 2003.

Dear falon,

It has been my long experience that those entrapped in false religions are the LEAST reliable sources of any objective facts concerning their religion. One who has studied paganism from outside its clutches knows a lot more about it - objectively - than one who has been sucked into it.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 02, 2003.

Now, Michelle, if you truly love this man, you should marry him. Don't let religion, or your past, stand in your way. Love is one of the most important, if not the MOST important, thing in a person's life, and you should always grab ahold of true love, no matter what. Don't let your parents tell you where to get married if what they say may sever your relationship. Sorry if I offended anyone.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 11, 2003.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Shane X , yep , 100% agree !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), August 04, 2003.

All,

Thank you for your interesting posts. Since I posted here originally, I've been doing much reading about pagan beliefs and traditions to better understand it all. I respect those beliefs as one of many paths that lead to God, in whatever form he (or she :) is known.

We are not yet married but hopefully will one day soon. I have decided that I no longer want to be married in the Catholic Church since I do not think it is feasible despite my parent's wishes. And my beliefs have changed from when I was a child. I am looking at alternatives to incorporate both of our beliefs in a ceremony, such as having a hand fasting as well as the more traditional wedding with both our concepts of God included.

Thank you.

-- michelle (rgrmitch@aol.com), August 05, 2003.

(sigh)...I was hoping to find a bonafide answer to Michelle's question but I see that no one from a Catholic tribunal reads these posts. I'm really not looking for anyone's opinion but a factual answer. Does the catholic church recognize a pagan wedding ceremony performed by a unitarian minister? If the church recognizes this as a bonafide marriage then an annulment is required. If the church does not recognize the pagan ceremony as a bonafide marriage ceremony, then it does not need to be annuled. Simple. Can anyone answer this question with certainty?

-- Nancy (krum@optonline.net), January 13, 2005.

Nancy,

What is a pagan today? Is he polytheistic, does he believe in gods? Is it some kind of new age belief or is he simply an atheist being called a pagan.

This might have some bearing on the answer from some of the more knowlegeable here. You don't run into that many true pagans these days. At least I haven't. I've met a few wiccans; they might be considered pagan. Its my understanding that the Church does not recognise wiccan weddings as valid. Sorry, I know you want a more concrete answer.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 13, 2005.

Nancy, it’s not a matter of the Church “recognizing” any particular type of marriage performed under any other religion (or no religion). The point is, anyone wanting to enter a Catholic marriage must show that he/she is free to marry, to avoid the risk of bigamy. Therefore if he/she has ever been through ANY type of marriage ceremony with a person who is still alive, then the validity of that marriage must be investigated, and unless the Church finds that that particular “marriage” in that individual case is invalid, he/she cannot marry in the Catholic Church. Every case has to be decided on an individual basis. Even if it may appear obvious that the marriage is invalid (eg if you got drunk in Vegas and married someone you just met), it must still be submitted to a tribunal for judgment as to its validity. It can't just be presumed invalid.

The only time the Church makes a ruling on a particular marriage is where it is requested to by one of the parties to the marriage because he/she wants to remarry in the Church. Where no investigation has been made, the Church PRESUMES that marriages performed under the rites of other religions are valid, although they may well not be. E.g. the monks of a Catholic monastery would not object if a couple, who had been married in a pagan/Unitarian ceremony, and who were spending the night at the monastery, wanted to share a room.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 13, 2005.

"If the church does not recognize the pagan ceremony as a bonafide marriage ceremony, then it does not need to be annuled"

A: This is a common misconception regarding annulment procedings. In fact, it is precisely those wedding ceremonies the Church does not recognize as valid which DO need to be declared null. A wedding the Church does recognize obviously cannot be annuled. All other marital relationships must be annuled, which means that the Church, after studying the nature of the ceremony and the eligibility of the parties, issues an official statement to the effect that it does not recognize the union as a valid marriage. That's what an annulment is.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 14, 2005.

The only time the Church makes a ruling on a particular marriage is where it is requested to by one of the parties to the marriage because he/she wants to remarry in the Church.

Steve,

In the strictest sense regarding Catholics, intent to remarry is not a requirement -a Catholic can petition regardless. On the other hand, petition to a Tribunal is only available to a non-Catholic IF intending to marry in the Church.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), January 14, 2005.