Do you think God forgives other people if we ask Him or does the actual person doing the sin have to be the one to ask?

I thought of "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do". Jesus was asking God to forgive those people that persecuted him...So, what do you think? Can a person be forgiven if someone asks for them?

Thanks~

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), January 10, 2003

Answers

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-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), January 10, 2003.

Sure, just like if you see one of your kids outside the window accidentally breaking something, you can forgive him before he comes back in the house to tell you about it.

But - he still has to tell you about it! ;-)

-- Christine L :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 10, 2003.

Your scripture is a good one,Jackiea, and so Stephen too prayed 'forgive them', and so in other places in the old testament did many a prayerful saint go into deep intercession for even whole regions and stave off the Lord's anger and punishment.

We are commanded to forgive others, and I believe we can carry that further by asking God to forgive them. When an individual dies and faces the Lord, only God will judge if they have come into true repentance and are worthy of inheriting the Kingdom, but our prayers and intercessions hold great power in even changing peoples' destinies.

We are told in Maccabees it is a great thing to pray for the dead. We can go to prayer for our ancestors and ask forgiveness for their sins, and ask the Lord to remove the iniquity [the stain of sin} from our family tree, thus breaking generational curses and helping set free those in our family lines who have been caught up in sinful patterns, ourselves included.

This prayer is a tremendous act of charity.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), January 10, 2003.

Hi Jackiea,

How are you? It is so nice to hear from you.

Yes, I agree with everything Theresa and Christine have posted. Prayer is so powerful. I am not sure how it works praying for God to forgive others. I wonder if God then works on that person's soul and opens his/her eyes to their sin and through the power of your prayer, that person may then repent and ask for God's forgiveness on his/her own.

Could it work that way too?

Mother Teresa had a wonderful prayer when it came to forgiveness. She said if we have a hard time forgiving someone, then ask God to forgive that person for you until you are ready to forgive them yourself...so, that prayer sort of goes in line with your request, Jackiea..no?

I had a wonderful experience today. I started a new job...I'll save that for another post because it has nothing to do with this thread.

But, I am so joyful because the Lord has directed me here and I am overwhelmed with the way He is working in my life - "When the time is right." Again, another thread.

Sorry....let us continue with your request. I am interested to see what the others have to say.

Love, MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 10, 2003.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Although someone can forgive a person for something, I believe that person remains guilty before God until they confess it and repent.

God Bless!

-- Tim, the Baptist (tlw97@cox.net), January 10, 2003.

Tim, as you say "a person remains guilty before God until they confess and repent".

I wonder, what do you think Jesus and Stephen meant when they said "Father forgive them, they know not what they are doing"?

I feel the compassion in their hearts. I feel them 'standing in the gap' between God and the sinner, pleading on their behalf that God would remove their guilt. I sense when I look deeper, part of their prayer is presenting to God those people and saying "Father, lead them to see their sin and their ignorance so they can truly repent and be saved". I see them being so outside of themselves that even in their pain they can love their murderers, and help them come to God Himself. I wonder, do you think our Father heard and answered them?

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), January 11, 2003.

Theresa,

I really liked your post. A lot of wisdom in a small package. "Brevity is the soul of wit."

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), January 11, 2003.

Well, Theresa, like Mateo, "I really liked your post." However, that doesn't stop me from disagreeing with you!

You wrote: "I wonder, what do you think Jesus and Stephen meant when they said 'Father forgive them, they know not what they are doing'? ... I feel them 'standing in the gap' between God and the sinner, pleading on their behalf that God would remove their guilt."

This may come as a surprise, but I instead am taking Jesus and St. Stephen literally. The two of them said: "They know not what they are doing." Therefore, to use your words differently, Theresa, there was no "guilt" for "God [to] remove." As we often say here, a person is not guilty of mortal sin without the three constitutive components, one of which (in the cases we are discussing) is "knowing ... what they are doing."

The Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus did not know that they were killing an innocent man (not to mention God's Son), so Jesus says this out loud to the Father: Do not hold this against them. In the case of St. Stephen, he must have believed that the men who stoned him were convinced that they were not doing anything sinful, so he asked God: Do not hold this against them.

Oh, well. My thinking on this may turn out to be unpopular, but I will hold on to it unless persuaded otherwise!

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 11, 2003.

Dear John,

Thank you. I think you are absolutely right in what you said.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 11, 2003.

If Jesus knew they didn't know what they were doing was wrong, then why did He ask the Father to forgive them? Did He think maybe the Father might have thought they knew what they were doing?

It's kind of splitting hairs. There have been times when I really did not know if the offender knew what they were doing. It can drive one bananas to try and wonder, who is just a puppet, and who is really instigating evil. I always seem to give the offender the benefit of the doubt and pray 'they know not what they do'. And even if they do know what they are doing is wrong, that the Father would forgive them anyway, just to be safe.

-- Theresa (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), January 11, 2003.

Theresa,

I just believe this shows that Christ and Stephen had forgiven them. No where does it claim that they were forgiven.

God Bless!

-- Tim, the Baptist (tlw97@cox.net), January 11, 2003.

So, Tim, do you mean to say that God the Father didn't answer Stephen and His Son's prayers?

John, good observation, but I think it is a little off the topic. The question was whether or not others can be forgiven through our prayers or intercession. Whether or not they knew what they were doing was sinful is beyond the scope - though good to know.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), January 11, 2003.

Jake,

Can you say that he did? I honestly don't know. I know that Christ can forgive sins, but Stephen could not. I know the Scripture says we must confess our sins to be forgiven. So, you tell me? Where do we have any idea that God would forgive them, just because Christ and Stephen asked him to? We don't.

-- Tim, the Baptist (tlw97@cox.net), January 11, 2003.

Dear Tim,

You are right. We must confess our sins to be forgiven, we must truly be sorry for our sins, and not commit those sins again and God will surely forgive us.

On the other hand, if we pray for God to forgive someone else, (whether or not that person 'knew' what they were doing. (only God knows) I think God will hear our prayers and our praying for that person's forgiveness by God may lead to a conversion and repentence. I do think that is possible.

But, who am I? :)

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 11, 2003.

Thanks, all, for your input. I really appreciate it. :)

John, on what you were saying....maybe when He asked His Father to forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing, it occured to me...maybe it's that they knew they were killing someone but they didn't know they were killing the Son of God. Random thoughts, forgive me. :)

And Tim, I didn't seriously expect anyone to know in all certainty if someone could be forgiven through intercession. Who can possibly know what God does/thinks? I just wanted others opinions on the subject. Just a "whadya think" kind of thing.

Thanks again, everyone and God bless~

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), January 12, 2003.

Jesus Himself taught us to pray for other's forgiveness. In The Lord's Prayer we say 'forgive US our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against US'. We don't pray forgive ME my sins. This is a communal prayer; we are all part of the Body of Christ, we are not alone in our Christian journey, when one part of the Body is hurt we all hurt, therefore to pray for one another's forgivenss is probably not only allowed but also necessary.

God bless!

-- (caritas.christi@btopenworld.com), January 12, 2003.

Jackiea, it's an interesting post, thank you. And now, just to throw in the mix some scriptures and Catechism quotes..read 2 Maccabees 12:42, and 44-46, and 1 Peter 4:8 - "ABOVE ALL LET YOUR LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER BE INTENSE,BECAUSE LOVE COVERS A MULTITUDE OF SINS"...{what does THAT mean but we affect one another}, and catechism articles 1434, [The many forms of penance in the Christian life}...{...the intercession of the saints}..., and 1440,and so forth.....

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), January 12, 2003.

continued...

just a thought, can you imagine a community where the Godly love for one another is so present, and so intense that God looks upon it so very pleased, and the love just 'covers the sins' of each other.

Amazingly, did we notice yesterday's readings? From FIRST JOHN 14,15,16? " And we have this confidence in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in regard to whatever we ask we know that what we have asked Him for is ours. If anyone sees his brother SINNING , if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and He will give him life."

The footnotes in my bible say 'as children of God because of our intimate relationship with Him we pray for those who are in sin.' Then it goes on to discuss the deadly sin.

So again, I address the question, why would the bible suggest we pray for forgiveness of sinners, as Jesus did, and not EXPECT the Father to answer this righteous prayer? ... just a thought..

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), January 12, 2003.

Hi, MaryLu. I think that what you told Tim makes a lot of sense!

Hi, Theresa. You wrote (in response to my suggestion):
"If Jesus knew they didn't know what they were doing was wrong, then why did He ask the Father to forgive them? Did He think maybe the Father might have thought they knew what they were doing?"

We know that the Father is all-knowing, perfectly aware of all that Jesus knew even before he said it. The Father knew that the soldiers were not guilty. They were just carrying out their duty -- just another capital punishment. Therefore, one could ask, "Why did Jesus say those words?" The reason was so that the witnesses (and ultimately we) could know that the men were innocent.

Jake H, you wrote: "John, good observation, but I think it is a little off the topic."

Well, you must have missed the fact that my message started with these words: "[Theresa] wrote: 'I wonder, what do you think Jesus and Stephen meant when they said 'Father forgive them, they know not what they are doing'?"
So I was just answering your mom's question, Jake. I really didn't think about whether she or I were going off topic. You have to admit that it wasn't as far off as some tangents seen here!

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 12, 2003.

Wonderful thread, thanks Jackiea! There are really some good thoughts in here.

Here's my question. If you forgive someone, for whatever reason, and they do not admit their wrong or ask for your forgivness even though they know they've hurt you and then they continue to hurt you, is it wrong then if when you've finally had enough to tell that person you no longer want them in your life? To literally tell them, "stay out of my life."

Peace

-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), January 17, 2003.