I am a catholic male engaged to a non-catholic christian female. She was baptized in a lutheran church while I was baptized in a catholic church. I was confirmed in a catholic church while she was not confirmed due to confirmation not being part of her religion. I have attended catholic church all of my life while she attended a christian missionary alliance church. I have never been married while she was married by a justice of the peace in a court house. She separated from her husband after 5 years of marriage due to his adultering and alcoholism and the divorce(no annullment)became final after 7 years. She has a 12 year old son from that marriage. We would both like to get married in my catholic church and need to understand the implications to do so. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

-- Joe LaBella (labelja@nu.com), January 01, 2003

Answers

Response to Can a catholic male marry a divorced non-catholic in a catholic church

Dear Joe,

From your description, your proposed marriage in the Catholic Church should certainly be possible. The only question is whether annulment proceedings will be required first. If they are, they should proceed pretty quickly, since a marriage before a JP cannot be sacramental in nature. Consult your pastor, or your diocesan office of family life for guidance.

Peace! Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 01, 2003.

Response to Can a catholic male marry a divorced non-catholic in a catholic church

I am afraid that Paul's answer to Joe about marrying a previously married Lutheran contains a common error when Paul writes: "a marriage before a JP cannot be sacramental in nature." That is just not true according to Catholic theology and canon law.

If two baptized non-Catholics who are eligible to be married (i.e. not currently married, etc.) are married either in a church setting (before a minister) or a secular one (before a judge, JP, etc.) the marriage is assumed to be valid and SACRAMENTAL unless and until it is determined otherwise. Two non-Catholics getting married are not bound by the required "canonical form" which would be required if at least one of the marriage partners was Catholic.

The marriage of two baptized non-Catholics, even before a JP, can be sacramental since in Catholic understanding the spouses are the actual ministers of the sacrament.

-- Edward Pothier (EdwardPothier@aol.com), January 02, 2003.

Response to Can a catholic male marry a divorced non-catholic in a catholic church

Dear Edward,

Thanks for your response. Everything you stated is certainly factual. The Church does assume that every marriage between baptized Christians is both valid and sacramental, unless and until it is determined to be otherwise. The key word here is "assume". This is rather like the legal concept of assuming innocence until proven guilty. Such an assumption is completely open-ended, pending the presentation and assessment of evidence. Assumption does not mean approval or acceptance in any sense. On the contrary, it specifically means lack of approval OR disapproval, until such time as there is reason to make a determination. Assuming innocence has no effect on the actual guilt or innocence of an accused person, and assumption of sacramentality in no way indicates the presence of sacramentality. Usually there is no reason to make such a determination unless someone is entering the Church. At that time, such a determination must be made, and while lack of validity is seldom an issue in such cases, lack of sacramentality often is.

continued .......

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 02, 2003.

Response to Can a catholic male marry a divorced non-catholic in a catholic church

As you stated, the Catholic understanding is that the spouses are the actual ministers of the sacrament. However, they are valid ministers of the sacrament because they recognize, first that marriage is a sacrament, and secondly, their ministerial function in the confection of that sacrament. The reason sacramentality often comes into question, once actual steps are taken to go past the blanket assumption of sacramentality, and examine individual relationships, is that nearly all non-Catholic Christians fail to recognize marriage as a sacrament. Lutherans recognize two sacraments - Baptism and Communion. The conscious intent of the minister is an essential component of any sacrament. If a priest, while giving a talk on the Eucharist, demonstrates the form of Consecration, using unconsecrated hosts he has brought, no consecration occurs. Likewise, if a priest demonstrates the baptismal form and matter, using a volunteer, no baptism occurs, because the priest has no intention of conferring a sacrament. So the question arises - can two persons who do not recognize either their role as sacramental ministers, or even the essential fact that marriage IS a sacrament still minister that sacrament to each other?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 02, 2003.

Response to Can a catholic male marry a divorced non-catholic in a catholic church

Jmj

Hello, Edward and Paul (and Joe)

Edward, you wrote: "I am afraid that Paul's answer to Joe about marrying a previously married Lutheran contains a common error when Paul writes: 'a marriage before a JP cannot be sacramental in nature.' That is just not true according to Catholic theology and canon law."

You are so right, Edward. And I was shocked to see what Paul wrote, because (about a week ago), I corrected a similar error on his part, using almost the same words that you used in my reply to him. Actually, I recall that Paul made a two or three errors then, including a statement that a nullity proceeding takes place to determine whether or not a sacramental marriage occurred. Since he did not reply to me then, and since he has made similar errors again, I have a feeling that he did not read my reply on that other thread.

[continued below]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 03, 2003.

Response to Can a catholic male marry a divorced non-catholic in a catholic church

Paul, you provided some interesting comments in your response to Edward. However, you must not have gone back to your original reply to Joe, to see the two errors therein, because you didn't take back anything that you originally stated. I have highlighted the mistakes here:
"From your description, your proposed marriage in the Catholic Church should certainly be possible. The only question is whether annulment proceedings will be required first. If they are, they should proceed pretty quickly, since a marriage before a JP cannot be sacramental in nature."

(1) The first error is in imagining that nullity proceedings could be skipped. Surely they cannot! These proceedings are needed to determine whether or not a valid marriage still exists in the case of the divorced couple. A tribunal is interested primarily in validity (more than sacramentality), which one can see from the fact that a tribunal examines and rules on non-sacramental marriages between Jews or atheists, not just Christians. (By the way, Joe didn't even say whether the first "husband" was a Christian. If he was, and if the marriage was valid, then it was sacramental.)

(2) Originally, Paul, you flatly stated that "a marriage before a JP cannot be sacramental." In your follow-up, though, you condeded that such a marriage is "assumed" to be valid and sacramental. That means that it could be sacramental -- thus contradicting your original statement.

[continued below]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 03, 2003.

Response to Can a catholic male marry a divorced non-catholic in a catholic church

Paul, part of your reluctance to believe that marriages of most non-Catholic Christians before a JP [or anywhere, for that matter] could be sacramental is this statement of yours:
"The reason sacramentality often comes into question ... is that nearly all non-Catholic Christians fail to recognize marriage as a sacrament. ... The conscious intent of the minister is an essential component of any sacrament."

You have been laboring under a misconception. You are right in saying that "intent" is important, but the required "intent" for a valid marriage must be to enter into a "permanent partnership" that is open to new life. You are mistaken in thinking that the "intent" of two protestants must be to enter into a "sacrament."

You closed by saying: "[T]he question arises -- can two persons who do not recognize either their role as sacramental ministers, or even the essential fact that marriage IS a sacrament still minister that sacrament to each other?"
If the answer were "NO," then the almost unthinkable implication would be that hardly any protestant married couples are actually "married"!
[continued below]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 03, 2003.

Response to Can a catholic male marry a divorced non-catholic in a catholic church

But we needn't trouble ourselves with that idea, because the answer to your question is "YES, they can minister the sacrament to each other" -- as can be concluded from the following passages from Canon Law.

"Canon 1096 §1 -- For matrimonial consent to exist, it is necessary that the contracting parties be at least not ignorant of the fact that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman, ordered to the procreation of children through some form of sexual cooperation." [Note, ignorance of sacramentality is acceptable, as confirmed three canons later ...]

"Canon 1099 -- Provided it does not determine the will, error concerning the unity or the indissolubility or the sacramental dignity of marriage does not vitiate matrimonial consent."

God bless all of you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 03, 2003.