when was the Baptist religion started.

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when the Baptist religion started,an by who?? thank you

-- denis levesque (dal-sml@prodigy.net), December 19, 2002

Answers

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

The Baptist tradition began in Amsterdam in 1605, and was founded by John Smyth.

Peace! Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 19, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

P.S. - Here is an interesting site which briefly mentions the origins of a number of Christian churches. I'm sure many have seen this, but some may not have ...

http://www.transporter.com/apologia/how_old.htm

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 19, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Paul, I have enjoyed your well informed answers. Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@juno.com), December 23, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

I always thought the Baptist Church was founded when John the Baptist baptized Jesus?

-- Grady James Padgett (lavawoof@bellsouth.net), December 24, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

You always thought wrongly, Grady.

If you could look at every extant document from 30 A.D. to 1604 A.D., you would not find a single reference to "Baptist Church."

-- Not a single (Baptist@Before.1605), December 24, 2002.



Response to when was the baptist religion started.

You won't find any Biblical references to Catholic believers, either, but you would find Biblical-era references to baptized believers- people who were baptized -as adults- after they came to faith in Christ as their savior. See Acts 2:38. Adult, voluntary repentance comes before baptism, and a child before the age of accountability (understanding) cannot repent.

-- VeraP (verap1@earthlink.net), December 26, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Jmj

Hello, Vera.
You said, "You won't find any Biblical references to 'Catholic' believers ..."
To quote a very good man, "What does that have to do with the price of fish in China?"

The topic here is "when the Baptist denomination was founded" -- and the answer is, "in the 17th century." You can't find something called the "Baptist Church" before then.

For this discussion, the presence or absence of the word "Catholic" in the Bible is 100% irrelevant. And, since the word "catholic" means "universal" (i.e., referring to the "whole world," it could not have even been written into the Bible, since the Church had not yet spread to the whole known world).

But since you mention the word "Catholic," I can point to a document from about 108 A.D., in which a bishop/martyr refers to the "Catholic" Church. He does this without explaining the word, so his readers knew what he meant. That tells us that the word could already have been in use among Christians for years before 108.

[to be continued]

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

[continued from above]

Vera, you then wrote: "... but you would find Biblical-era references to baptized believers - people who were baptized - as adults - after they came to faith in Christ as their savior."

First, the Bible does not say that all who were baptized were "adults." (You invented that.) Second, the folks mentioned in the Bible as having been baptized, regardless of their age, were the first Catholics. Oh, they may not have used that word, but they believed as Catholics do today, and they worshipped as Catholics do today. They would have rejected some of the things that Baptists believe, and they would not have worshipped as Baptists do today.

You stated: "See Acts 2:38. Adult, voluntary repentance comes before baptism, and a child before the age of accountability (understanding) cannot repent."

You are drawing an incorrect conclusion from what you read, because you are following the faulty practice called "sola scriptura." You are reading a passage and trying unsuccessfully to interpret it on your own.

[to be continued]

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

[continued from above]

The actual Christian truth is that (1) "repentance" and (2) "expressed faith" are required before Baptism only of those people who are capable of (1) personal sin and (2) profession of a creed. Certain people can and should be baptized without "repentance" and "expressed faith" -- such as infants and the profoundly mentally handicapped (who can neither sin nor profess a creed).

We know from historical documents that infants have been baptized since the beginning of Christianity/Catholicism. Unfortunately, some sects of Protestantism invented a new "tradition of men" after the year 1500 -- wherein only adults would be baptized. Such a novelty is obviously without value. (Jesus didn't tell anyone to make new things up.) I urge you to abandon the false tradition of "adults-only baptism," Vera, and join the Church that Jesus founded, the Catholic Church.

Merry Christmas.
John
PS: Please excuse the breaking up of the message. The forum's software is "playing games" tonight.

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Vera,

You said it exactly right - ADULT voluntary repentance is indeed necessary, since adults sin. The purpose of that repentance is to reclaim our spiritual innocence - or, as Jesus Himself put it, to "become like little children". So, if we adults must "become like little children" before we can be saved, then it really doesn't take a great amount of thought to recognize that those who already ARE like little children are in no need of repentance. And who is more like little children than little children? that's why Jesus said of the infants and toddlers who were brought to Him "to such as these belongs the Kingdom of God". And yet, elsewhere He said that no-one can enter the kingdom without baptism!. Put these two divine statements together, and you have "such as these are ready for baptism". Indeed, many of the small children who were brought to Jesus that day may well have already been baptized. That would explain His saying that the Kingdom, which is available only to the baptized, belonged to them. We know from scripture that it was the common practice of the early Church to baptize whole households together. The scripture specifically says they were ALL baptized - every membet of the household, no exceptions - both the little children and those who had repented and become like little children.

Peace! Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 27, 2002.



Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Vera, no, you won't find the word "Catholic" in the Bible, any more than you will find the word "Protestant". But you will find a detailed description of ONE Church, teaching ONE set of doctrines, and being sent by Jesus Christ to make disciples of ALL peoples. This idea of a single universal Church for all people, so prevalent in New Testament writings, is the reason why that one true Church adopted the name "Holy Catholic Church" before the end of the first century. "Catholic" means "universal" today, just as it did then. Also, although the terms "Protestant" and "denomination" are not in scripture, the fragmentation of Christianity into such conflicting manmade sects is clearly described ... "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths" (2 Timothy 4:3-4) How prophetic these words were, spoken 1500 years before they began to be fulfilled! And how sad Jesus must be that they are still being fulfilled today!

In Christ, Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 27, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

I am reading all of these bitter remarks and thinking how sad our Lord must be looking down on us. I am a Catholic, born and raised. I have many friends that are Baptist, and other denominations of the Protestant Faith as well. I think it's pathetic that people are blasting each other about something noone knows the truth of. To be honest, I love my faith, but I don't get any satisfaction out of bickering over it. It's a personal thing to me. Of course I share it with fellow Christians, but we don't discriminate. There is One Father, One Son, and One Spirit. They are a beautiful Trinity, I hope we all, as Christians, can agree. Why do people get so hung up on the arguing? Do we really think we are going to convince each other that one is better than the other? I doubt it. WE should all be doing more praying and less fighting. I really think this would please God. Focus on our similarities instead of differences and come together to listen and support each other in our Christianity.

-- Rachel Farrell (valeda71@yahoo.com), December 27, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Rachel,

Bitter? I don't think that stating the truth of a situation necessarily qualifies as bitterness. I do think that ignoring the truth qualifies as dishonesty though. We are not talking about which denomination is better than the other. We are talking about the undeniable fact that Jesus Christ founded ONE Church with ONE set of beliefs, and commanded that all people belong to that Church. That is the truth. It is the truth when it is stated bitterly, and it is the truth when it is stated lovingly. But suggesting that one church is as good as another, and that there is no single true Church founded by Jesus is never the truth. Jesus said "I am the truth". He said "the truth will set you free". If you do not seek and share the truth, you do not really seek Jesus. And if, having the truth, you do not share it with others, you disobey the command Jesus gave to the Church He founded - "go forth and make disciples of all nations". Yes, there is one Father, one Son, and one Spirit. But that essential truth does not negate the equally important truth that there is One Church founded by Jesus Christ to guide all mankind to salvation.

In Christ, Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 27, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Paul, i would love to agree with you, as a matter of fact i pretty much do! however, how much time do you spend trying to spread the truth? did Jesus call us to run around preaching what is our truth, a nd yes, His truth, as much as He called us to peace and loving our neighbor? i mean, we may as well all be J.W.'s and go knocking door to door. i have a dear baptist friend who repeatedly tells me that i'm wrong...that the catholic faith is wrong. we discuss our opinions light-heartedly, yet with emotion, and sometimes it's better just to leave it alone-not because it gets too heated, but because neither one of us is about to budge. so, in my opinion, Jesus knows that each of us is doing their best and we both love Jesus, and certainly neither one of us will "win" at this point, so why not agree to disagree and just keep moving? it certainly does not reflect the depth of my faith. i have been in relationship with Christ since i was about 14 (on my own) and certainly a church goer from day one of life with my parents guidance. Jesus knows my heart, as he does all of our hearts, and He's not about to overlook people who are doing what they believe to be the best they can by Him. that's the same as the Born Again Christians saying that if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, right here, right now, right outside of the Big K-Mart where they have their booth to collect money, then you're going straight to Hell. Bull. God does not work that way. God is Love. and maybe there's some hundred's of thousands of people in 3rd world countries that have never heard the name Jesus. are they all going to hell? no. God is bigger and better than anyone gives him credit for. i respect your quest for truth and all, but c'mon. i bet God is thinking "Paul, cut the crap and move on."

-- Rachel (valeda71@yahoo.com), December 27, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Rachel,

The Church of God agrees with you concerning the eternal destination of those who have not heard the truth of Jesus Christ. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may attain eternal salvation."

And I certainly agree with you about not pushing too hard with friends and family. That is both destructive to relationships, and counterproductive to sharing the gospel. I don't think I made any reference to the depth of your faith since (1) I have no way of knowing that, and (2) it is really none of my business. My only concern was that a couple of your original comments suggested (as I interpreted them, of course) a leaning toward the currently all too prevalent idea that all churches are equally acceptable in the eyes of God, and it really doesn't matter which one you belong to, as long as you try to follow Jesus. That idea is completely false. Even though those who are in error through no fault of their own may still be saved, that is not a reason to simply leave people in error. If it didn't matter to God which church we belong to, He would simply have told us to found our own churches, rather than founding one Church for all men in all times and places.

Peace! Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 27, 2002.



Response to when was the baptist religion started.

okay, paul...well, the reference to my faith (as i interpreted it) was that if i am not fully seeking and stating the truth at all times, then i am not truly seeking Jesus. but okay. you didn't mean it personally. anyway, as i see it, everyone has their own truth-- not to be confused with sounding new-age -- but it's true. people believe what they do, and as far as they're concerned, they can back it up. catholics look at biblical phrases in a completely different light than do protestants. so the point is mute. protestants believe word for word and we catholics are kind of interpreting the bible for meaning. fine. we all see it differently. has the energy we've spent over the past how many hundred years done any good??? no. not an ounce. like my dad for example...whenever he meets someone that's not catholic (i'm slightly exaggerating here, but not by much) he says "oh, well, we'll have to pray about that" and how do you think the person on the receiving end feels? less than? insulted? put off? confirmed about their opinions of the catholic church? i just say live and let live...basically. and i have all kinds of friends...jewish, all kinds of protestant denominations, gay, you name it. they don't change my beliefs and i don't change theirs. God calls me to love people and accept who they are and where they're coming from. He will be the judge in the end, not me. obviously you are more highly educated than i am when it comes to the catechism and the scriptures, and more power to you. but i have a load of life experience which tells me that i can love and accept people without trying to change what they believe. so are you a theology professor or just a darn good bible reading catholic??? :) peace, rachel

-- rachel (valeda71@yahoo.com), December 28, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Rachel,

It is not true that everyone "has their own truth". I know what you mean of course, but a more accurate statement would be "everyone has their own opinion regarding truth". Real truth however is objective and absolute. It is not subject to personal opinion. Truth is truth, even if no-one accepts it. Untruth is untruth, even if everyone accepts it. If someone's personal opinion does not coincide with actual truth, then they are simply wrong, and what they believe is untruth.

Protestants do not accept the Bible literally (even though some claim to). What Protestant accepts the words of Jesus at the Last Supper - "This is My Body ... This is My Blood" - literally? Catholics do take these statements of Jesus literally. Both Protestants and the Catholic Church interpret the meaning of scripture. But again, there can only be one true interpretation. Two interpretations which conflict cannot both be right. The fact that "we all see it differently" is not something we can just shrug off and ignore, for it means that many of us are accepting untruth, and that is not a situation God wants for His people. continued .....

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 28, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Has the energy we've spent over the past how many hundred years done any good??? Yes it has. Hundreds of thousands of people have found the fullness of truth in the one true Church through these efforts.

Like you, I too have all kinds of friends...Jewish, Protestant, gay, straight, you name it. They don't change my beliefs (though sometimes they give me valuable new insights), but I offer them every opportunity to change their beliefs, while respecting them as persons, and being very careful not to be pushy or preachy. Yes, God calls me to love people and accept who they are, but if they're coming from a situation of untruth, he wants me to offer them something better. Yes, He will be the judge, not me. I don't judge them. I just try to help them find the truth, so they will be in a better position to meet the Judge.

In response to your last question, I am a Catholic deacon. As such, I hold a masters in theology, but am certainly no theologian. And I teach a couple of courses at local colleges, but do not have Professor status at either one.

Peace! Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 28, 2002.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Here is a very good website on the origin of the Baptist denomination: http://www.christianstudycenter.com/religions/baptists.html and on Baptism Scripture states that whole families were baptized. It must have been adults and children. God Bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), December 28, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Wow! After seeing Ed Lauzon's name earlier today, we get to see another "blast from the past" -- John Placette. Welcome back, John!
Merry Christmas. John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 29, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Thanks John! I hope your Christmas was merry. And Happy New Year. God Bless.

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), December 29, 2002.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Was reading thru this interesting site and found this: "First, the Bible does not say that all who were baptized were "adults." (You invented that.) Second, the folks mentioned in the Bible as having been baptized, regardless of their age, were the first Catholics. Oh, they may not have used that word, but they believed as Catholics do today, and they worshipped as Catholics do today." Actually the first "Catholics" did not worship as it done so today. They were mostly Jews who continued to keep Passover, Shabbat, etc. Also, it is interesting to me that the many people in the first century were brought to Christ only thru use of the "Old" Testament. In a sense, the Jewish people were the first baptists as immersion was a very important part of their worship...this was not a new tradition with the NT.

-- Debra Rochelle (debirochelle@yahoo.com), January 10, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Hello, Debra. I beg to differ with you.

You stated: "Actually the first 'Catholics' did not worship as it done so today. They were mostly Jews who continued to keep Passover, Shabbat, etc."
Yes, they were mostly Jews who continued as you said ... but they added to their old religious activities the new ones that were characteristically Christian -- including the first form of the Mass. They assembled on "the Lord's day" (Sunday), not just on the sabbath (Saturday).

You also wrote: "[I]t is interesting to me that the many people in the first century were brought to Christ only thru use of the 'Old' Testament."
I wouldn't put it that way. Rather they were brought to Christ through faith that followed upon oral teaching. That oral teaching is called Apostolic Tradition, and it is still very much alive in the original Christianity (Catholicism). It is true that many in the first century, especially Jews, were helped to convert by seeing that many O.T. prophecies were fulfilled in the life of Jesus.

You continued: "In a sense, the Jewish people were the first baptists, as immersion was a very important part of their worship ... this was not a new tradition with the NT."
Again, I disagree. Although ritual bathing in pools called "mikvahs" did take place, these ceremonies were not nearly as important/meaningful as Christian/Catholic baptisms of the first century. Jewish baths did not take away original and personal sin -- nor make people adopted children of God -- as the sacrament of Baptism does.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 11, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

These first century Messianic Jews continued to keep Shabbat, many continued in synagogues - as for some time the Nazarines were looked upon as a sect of Judaism (about 90 years? I might be off a few years). They did assemble on other days, but kept no other as holy. Scriptural and historical evidence for this is consistent if one does not take the NT out of context. Even Paul took pride in the fact that he was an observant Jew. He could not have boasted this had he broken Shabbat.

In spite of what many in the Church may think, and without diminishing the Apostles' mission in spreading the gospel message regarding Jesus, I believe that according to Scripture people were always saved by faith (i.e., Abraham). Anyone familiar OT Judaism knows that they never thought that the "Law" saved them. It was repentance, sacrifice (blood, incense, and 1 other thing that I can't remember), faith, and then ultimately up to God's grace. Also, I don't believe that there is any scriptural basis for baptism taking away sin. I think that only repentance and the sacrificial blood of Jesus does this. Salvation by grace thru faith, I believe. The thief on the cross never had time for baptism or good works to get him to heaven. I do ask your pardon, however, because I should not be on this site. I was just curious and meant no offense. I, obviously, am not Catholic and you are entitled to have your site in peace to share God's message, love, and also to have fellowship with your fellow Catholics. I was in error to have intruded with what are, also obviously, just my opinions as I work out my walk with God. I pray that God will richly bless you.

-- D. Rochelle (debirochelle@yahoo.com), January 12, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Jmj

Hello, Debra.
No offense was taken by what you wrote in either message. Although this is a Catholic forum, respectful non-Catholics like you are welcome here -- to read, ask questions, contribute opinions, etc., according to the Moderator's rules.

Since you may not be returning, I won't go through your whole message, but just reply to one topic of yours: "I don't believe that there is any scriptural basis for baptism taking away sin. I think that only repentance and the sacrificial blood of Jesus does this."

You are right to say that repentance for personal sin must precede Baptism -- that is, if the one being baptized is capable of personal sin. Sin was atoned for -- but not yet forgiven -- by the bloody, redeeming sacrifice of Jesus. However, Jesus instituted the sacrament of Baptism as the ordinary way by which his Church was apply the effects of redemption, to take away the sins of a non-Christian.

[concluded below]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 12, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Baptism results in the forgiveness of personal sin (if any), the removal of the effects of the "original" sin of Adam and Eve -- thus giving us sanctifying grace and the gifts of the Holy Spirit -- and grants an entry into the Christian religion, the adoptive family of God the Father. It is not just an optional, symbolic "ordinance," but a sacramental rite that truly "regenerates" us. Jesus told Nicodemus about its necessity.

The first pope, St. Peter, wrote the following (1 Pet 3):
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 12, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

I came upon this website by chance. I will pray for everyone who has contributed to this site because I believe based on the Bible, the only inspired word of God for which we receive our only authority, that you are all gravely mistaken in your belief and follow a Man made tradition and a man un-ordained by God to forgive your sins. I pray for your souls. All of you. I also pray that you will stop twisting the scriptures to fit your own religous beliefs and desires so you can sleep well at night. The Bible is the only inspired work of God and to follow anything else is a sin. May the grace of God be with you in your quest for righteousness and have mercy on your souls. Thank you for your time.

-- (bran218@juno.com), February 01, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear bran,

It is no surprise that you feel this way. Many thousands of sincere Christians do. But you apparently haven't given a lot of thought to what you are saying - or maybe you just don't have access to the facts. If the Bible is the only authority, I should be able to find that statement in the Bible. It isn't there. However, the Bible DOES tell us that the Church is the foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Do you believe the Bible on this point, or your tradition? You say that God did not ordain that men should forgive sins, yet the Bible clearly records the occasion on which Jesus gave that power to men (John 20:23). Do you accept the Word of God here? Or reject it in favor of your tradition? You say that our Church is manmade - yet history clearly shows that the Catholic Church can trace its history directly back to Jesus and the Apostles. History also clearly shows that each of the thousands of conflicting sects in your tradition is traceable to a human founder, over the past few hundred years. Where does the Bible say that additional churches may be founded by men? How can you believe that you have any greater claim to truth than any of the other denominations, whose beliefs contradict yours? You see, the Bible is indeed the inspired Word of God, given to the Holy Catholic Church; and truth can be found in its pages, only when its interpretation is likewise inspired. Obviously that is not happening in your tradition, or there would not be such conflict of belief. Conflict of belief indicates twisting the scriptures. Unity of belief is necessary for truth to prevail. My Church has unchanging truth for 2,000 years. It has no denominations. It is ONE, Just as Jesus said it should be (John 17:21). Think about it. Then speak.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 01, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Like a few others, I have stumbled on to this site while doing some research. My only comment to the statement about there not being anything in the Bible about it being the only authority is for you to look at Revelation 22:18-19. It simply says not to add or take away from the scriptures. If we can add to the scriptures, you would open it up to anyone to say what they want. I believe when we get to heaven there are going to be a lot of things that we are all wrong on. Interpretation seems to be the biggest problem. I agree with one of the statements made earlier that I am not going to change you and you are not going to change me. Many people with tons more knowledge than me are on all sides of the issues. If they can't agree after all of the study they have done, then I'm sure we won't either. My last comment is, why would I have to go to some other person to have them take my sins to God for forgiveness when I can do that myself. As you recall from the Old Testament, only the priest could enter the Holy of Holies behind the veil in the temple. When Christ died on the cross, the veil in the temple was torn from the top to bottom, and now I have direct access to God without having to go through a priest. Jesus is my access to God!

Respectfully, Gary

-- Gary Hydorn (gkbbhydorn@msn.com), February 09, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Gary,

Why would you have to go to some other person to be baptized, when you could do it yourself? Why would you have to go to some other person to be married, when you could just do it yourself? Perhaps because God Himself has ordained certain individuals to minister his grace through the sacraments! Why would we ask another human being to minister God's forgiveness to us? Because God ordained that it should be so, as recorded in John 20:23. Catholics follow Biblical teaching, since Biblical (New Testament) teaching is of Catholic origin.

The passage about not adding to scripture clearly does not mean that all truth is available through scripture, since scripture itself tells us that many of the things Jesus said and did are not recorded there. (John 21:25) What this text does mean is that the canon of scripture is closed for all time, and therefore nothing can be added to or removed from the TEXT of scripture! Which brings up the important question - why do you use a Bible from which seven whole books have been removed by men, and to which several words have been added by men in key places??

The reason so many scripture scholars have so much disagreement is that they don't really have tons of knowledge. They simply have tons of personal interpretations, which they try to pass off as knowledge. But personal interpretation of scripture is a direct violation of Biblical teaching (2 Peter 1:20). Disobeying scripture is certain to lead to confusion and falsehood, and the doctrinal chaos we see in Protestantism demonstrates that fact vividly. Jesus is my access to God - which is why I follow His teachings, and one of His most central teachings is the necessity of listening to His Church, the Church to which He said "He who hears you hears Me", and "Whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven".

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 09, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Hello, I have a couple of questions for you. 1. Where does it say in the Bible: "The folks mentioned in the Bible as having been Baptized, were the first Catholics? 2. Where does it say Jesus founded the Catholic Church? The following answer to an earlier post seems to be contradictory. First you say you follow the Bible, then ask why anyone would want to follow the Bible. Please explain what you really mean, do you or do you not, as Catholics, believe in the Bible teachings? I am trying to find out the beliefs and practices of different churches, as our family needs a church home. Thank you for your answers, and God Bless You. Robin

-- Robin Kespert (wskesp@yahoo.com), February 20, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

I am so sorry, I forgot to include the passage I was questioning, in the post, so here it is:

Catholics follow Biblical teaching, since Biblical (New Testament) teaching is of Catholic origin.

The passage about not adding to scripture clearly does not mean that all truth is available through scripture, since scripture itself tells us that many of the things Jesus said and did are not recorded there. (John 21:25) What this text does mean is that the canon of scripture is closed for all time, and therefore nothing can be added to or removed from the TEXT of scripture! Which brings up the important question - why do you use a Bible from which seven whole books have been removed by men, and to which several words have been added by men in key places??

You state here, that "Catholics follow Biblical teaching, since Biblical (New Testament) teaching is of Catholic origin. " Then go on to say "why do you use a Bible ?" This is confusing to me. God Bless, Robin

-- Robin Kespert (wskesp@yahoo.com), February 20, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Robin,

To understand the origins and development of the early Church, you do have to see what the Bible says about it. But the Bible was not written as a book of history. If you want a complete picture than the various bits and pieces the Bible provides (I am speaking here of HISTORICAL facts, not divine Revelation!), then you need to read HISTORICAL texts, not just Biblical texts. Obviously the Bible does not refer to the Church Christ founded as "The Catholic Church", because the Church He founded didn't adopt that name until late in the 1st century, after the New Testament texts were completed (though long before they were part of the Bible). The Bible does say however that Jesus founded ONE Church, united in belief and worship, and that He intended ALL men to belong to that ONE Church. It is HISTORY, not scripture, which records the development of that ONE Church from the end of the first century onward. HISTORY demonstrates with absolute clarity that the Church Jesus founded is the Church which Ignatius of Antioch referred to as The Holy Catholic Church early in the 2nd century. HISTORY also shows that no other Christian church existed until the 11th century, when the Orthodox Church broke from The Holy Catholic Church Christ founded. HISTORY likewise records the formation of manmade churches in the 16th century, in direct violation of the Word of God; the rejection of 1500 year old Christian doctrine by those churches; the adoption of human traditions which would guarantee the ongoing fragmentation and division of those churches; and the inevitable result of following such false beliefs - the sorry state of doctrinal chaos in which we find Christianity today. However, the One Church founded by Christ remains true and strong today, united in belief and worship just as the Apostles were, with no denominational fragmentation.

No Catholic has ever told you to reject the Bible. The Bible was an outgrowth of Catholic teaching, guided and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Everything that is recorded in the New Testament was believed and taught by the Holy Catholic Church BEFORE it was ever written down. That's how it got written down in the first place! Therefore Catholics do not reject the writings of our own Church. What we DO reject is the false 16th century traditions that (1) the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth; and (2) every human being is personally capable of finding the truth by reading the Bible - the very traditions that have resulted in the ongoing destruction of manmade religion.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 20, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Hello Robin,

I was just reading your post to Paul, and I would like to comment.

You posted: "You state here, that "Catholics follow Biblical teaching, since Biblical (New Testament) teaching is of Catholic origin. " Then go on to say "why do you use a Bible ?" This is confusing to me.

It is probably confusing to you because you aren't reading the entire post. Paul asked: "why do you use a Bible from which seven whole books have been removed by men,..."

You see, you left off the "from which seven whole books have been removed by men," part.

If you add that part back on, then his post makes perfect sense.

Catholics follow Biblical teachings, not merely because the Bible says so, but because Catholics were following those same teachings before they were even in a Bible.

In the case of Protestants however they cannot state that they follow Biblical teachings, one of which is not to remove words from Scripture, when they use a Bible that has 7 missing books.

So, Paul isn't asking why you use a Bible, rather, why you use a Bible that has been "un-biblically" tampered with.

Hope that clears up your confusion.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), February 20, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

THE INFORMATION THAT I HAVE IS THAT JOHN SMYTH BEGAN THE BAPTIST RELIGEN IN 1605, USING THE WHOLE BIBLE INCLUDING THE APOCRYPHA,BECAUSE THOSE BOOKS WERE NOT REMOVED FROM THE BIBLE UNTIL 1885 BY THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY. THE ORIGINAL KING JAMES VERSION OF 1611 ( REVISED ) CONTAINED, THEREFORE, ALL THE BOOKS OF THE CATHOLIC BIBLE, ABD WAS USED UNTIL 1885 BY THE THE BAPTISTS PLEASE CPRRECT ME IF IDO NOT HAVE MY FACTS WRONG. I UNDERSTAND THAT SINCE THE COUNCIL ATWHICH ST AUGUSTING PPRESIDED IN THE THIRD CENTURY DECIDED WHICH BOOKS SHOULD BE PLACED IN THE CANON, AND FIXED FOREVER SO THEY THOUGHT THE MANUSCRIPTS AND THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY APPEAR IN THE CATHOLIC BIBLE ( AND USED THEREAFTER IN ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES OF WHICH THERE WERE ONLY CATHOLIC ), FOR 1500 YEARS AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IF YOU WERE CHRISTIAN YOU WERE OF ONE DENOMINATION NAMELY CATHOLIC. AS I UNDERSTAND IT THIS FAITH BEGAN AS ; THE WAY ; MADE UP OF BELIEVERS, CALLED CHRISTIAN AT ANTIOCK, AND CALLED CATHOLIC BY ST. IGNACEOUS IN 108. IN THE EVENT THAT ANY OF MY STATEMENTS ARE INCORRECT PLEASE LET ME HEAR FROM YOU, AND SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CORRECTIONS WITH SOME KIND OF PROOF. BE AWARE THAT I AM SEARCHING AS WE ALL ARE FOR THE ROCK UPON WHICH I CAN BUILD MY FAITH, AND UP TO NOW I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT IT IS THE CATHOLIC, CHRISTIAN, APOSTOLIC FAITH WHICH SEEMS TO HOLD THE TRUTH, AND THE WHOLE TRUTH AND IN SUCH A TENDER, SWEET, AND UNDERSTANDING WAY TEACHES HER TRUTH TO ALL WITH NO ANIMOSITY , IN THE SURE, AND CERTAIN HOPE THAT ALL OUR SEPARATED BROTHERS WILL SEE THEIR WAY HOME AND RETURN TO THE LOVING ARMS OF THE ONE TRUE ORIGINAL,UNIVERSAL,BODY OF CHRIST, HIS BRIDE FOREVER, THE CAATHOLIC CHURCH.

-- jack flood (jackfloodjax2@aol.com), March 09, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

THE INFORMATION THAT I HAVE IS THAT JOHN SMYTH BEGAN THE BAPTIST RELIGON IN 1605, USING THE WHOLE BIBLE INCLUDING THE APOCRYPHA,BECAUSE THOSE BOOKS WERE NOT REMOVED FROM THE BIBLE UNTIL 1885 BY THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY. THE ORIGINAL KING JAMES VERSION OF 1611 ( REVISED ) CONTAINED, THEREFORE, ALL THE BOOKS OF THE CATHOLIC BIBLE, ABD WAS USED UNTIL 1885 BY THE THE BAPTISTS PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I DO NOT HAVE MY FACTS RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT SINCE THE COUNCIL AT WHICH ST AUGUSTINE PRESIDED IN THE THIRD CENTURY DECIDED WHICH BOOKS SHOULD BE PLACED IN THE CANON, AND FIXED FOREVER SO THEY THOUGHT THE MANUSCRIPTS AND THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY APPEAR IN THE CATHOLIC BIBLE ( AND USED THEREAFTER IN ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES OF WHICH THERE WERE ONLY CATHOLIC ), FOR 1500 YEARS AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IF YOU WERE CHRISTIAN YOU WERE OF ONE DENOMINATION NAMELY CATHOLIC. AS I UNDERSTAND IT THIS FAITH BEGAN AS ; THE WAY ; MADE UP OF BELIEVERS, CALLED CHRISTIAN AT ANTIOCK, AND CALLED CATHOLIC BY ST. IGNACEOUS IN 108. IN THE EVENT THAT ANY OF MY STATEMENTS ARE INCORRECT PLEASE LET ME HEAR FROM YOU, AND SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CORRECTIONS WITH SOME KIND OF PROOF. BE AWARE THAT I AM SEARCHING AS WE ALL ARE FOR THE ROCK UPON WHICH I CAN BUILD MY FAITH, AND UP TO NOW I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT IT IS THE CATHOLIC, CHRISTIAN, APOSTOLIC FAITH WHICH SEEMS TO HOLD THE TRUTH, AND THE WHOLE TRUTH AND IN SUCH A TENDER, SWEET, AND UNDERSTANDING WAY TEACHES HER TRUTH TO ALL WITH NO ANIMOSITY , IN THE SURE, AND CERTAIN HOPE THAT ALL OUR SEPARATED BROTHERS WILL SEE THEIR WAY HOME AND RETURN TO THE LOVING ARMS OF THE ONE TRUE ORIGINAL,UNIVERSAL,BODY OF CHRIST, HIS BRIDE FOREVER, THE CAATHOLIC CHURCH.

-- jack flood (jackfloodjax2@aol.com), March 09, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Jack,

Welcome to this Catholic forum, and to the Catholic Church!

Being a Catholic is an awesome gift from God. He showers us with graces and blessings every day! He gives us the Holy Mass, the sacraments, and powerful intercessors in heaven--the saints. Also, the history of our Faith is so enriching.

I presume that you are not yet baptized, are still searching, but that thus far, all roads lead to Rome (so to speak). This sister in Christ will be praying for you and your family. May God Bless you abundantly!

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), March 09, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Did anybody happen to consult a Baptist Authority? Did anyone read the book "Trail of Blood"? Did you know that the heads of Baptist believers were cut off and skewered on poles that lined the road to Rome as early as the First Century? Did anyone out there care to find the truth? From reading your e-mails it seems you are all interested in proving each other wrong,or filling this site with mis-information. but thanks for a great afternoon read.Anyone really interested in "The Truth", HE said "SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND" not "DEBATE AND SHALL THE MOST VERBOSE WIN" TATA

-- Carol Graham (randy_60_06@hotmail.com), March 12, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Carol,

Baptist heads didn't exist until the 17th century, so it is unlikely that any were skewered in the first century. Any Christians who were martyred in the first century were Catholics, for there were no other Christians. Likewise in the 2nd century ... 5th ... 10th

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 12, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

I am still confused about the religions. Penticost, Southern Baptist, Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, and what is Christian Scientist?

-- Carole (Lmudpuppy3@aol.com), April 14, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

the creator of the Christian Scientist movement, Mary Baker Eddy, "infallibly" held that sin, illness and death are all in the mind. sin and illness does not exist, you only think it does; and by following their beliefs, and focussing on the healing power of Jesus in the Bible, you will be saved. (Hell is also in the mind).

PS they do not use doctors, medicine, or immunizations -- which may in part explain their diminuition in numbers. that is one of the more unfortunate and dangerous aspects of this cult as it, for example, puts parents in a strange position vis a vis their ill children.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 14, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Jmj

Hello, Carole. You wrote:
"I am still confused about the religions. Penticost, Southern Baptist, Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic ..."

Well, I'm not sure how much you know and how much you don't know, so I'll just be very brief and not very detailed. Then you can follow up, if you wish.

As a Christian, I believe that the one and only true God revealed himself in such a way that his followers formed two of the world's major religions: Judaism and Christianity. In reality, though, God's will was that Christianity be the logical conclusion and final flowering of Judaism -- rather than a separate religion.

Following logically from the above, you can see that I regard all non-Judeo-Christian religions to be manmade, not the result of direct revelation from God to mankind. The manmade religions, each of which contains many serious errors, include ...
Islam
Hinduism
Buddhism
Baha'i
Shintoism
Sikhism
Zoroastrianism
Unitarian/Universalism
Mormonism [which is not Christian]
Jehovah's Witnesses [not Christian]
American Indian religions
African animist religions
Wicca (modern witchcraft)

Returning now to Judaism and Christianity ...

God revealed himself directly to our first parents (Adam and Eve) and to some of their ancestors, such as Noah. In time, God revealed himself to Abraham in Ur, a town that was very near modern Baghdad! Abraham migrated to what is now the Holy Land and became a great patriarch of the people that eventually became "Israel," practicing the religion that came to be called "Judaism." These seminal events occurred thousands of years "B.C." (before Christ).

Jesus was the eternal Son of God the Father. He became man -- a Jewish man, near Jerusalem -- about 2000 years ago. He founded a church -- only one church -- before he died around the year 30 A.D.. The church he founded was already being called the Catholic Church by the year 110 (and perhaps long before that). [Catholic means "universal," a reference to the fact that the Church, composed of small local churches (now called "dioceses"), quickly spread throughout the "universe" of was then considered the civilized world.]

From the first century until the eleventh century, there was basically only one manifestation of Christianity. If you were a Christian in the year 210 or 540 or 990, you were a Catholic. Obviously, the Catholic Church continues to our very day, and it will be on Earth until the end of time. Jesus made the Catholic Church infallible (unable to teach error) and indefectible (unable to be extinguished). The Holy Spirit of God, the third Person of the Divine Trinity, animates and silently guides the Catholic Church.

In the eleventh century A.D., part of the Catholic Church (some local churches in Europe and Asia, East of Rome) ceased to recognize the popes as the vicars of Christ, the visible spiritual leaders of the universal Church. These ancient, breakaway, local churches now comprise the Eastern Orthodox churches, the closest "separated brethren" of Catholics. (Our doctrines and practices are very similar.)

In the sixteenth century, the Protestant rebellion began. In those tragic times, many Catholic people (especially in northern Europe and England) not only chose to break away from the leadership of the pope, but also to become heretics by denying some of the ancient doctrines of Jesus's Church. These rebels did not leave all together in a single body that remains conjoined today. No. From the beginning, they broke away in several groups (called "Protestant denominations") -- and these groups have repeatedly splintered since then. Every week, a new Protestant denomination or two is founded, so that there are now more than 30,000 of them around the world, a very sad state of affairs indeed.

Lutheranism and Anglicanism [Episcopalianism in the U.S.] are two of the earliest Protestant denominations. You also mentioned the Baptists (who started in the 17th century) and the Pentecostals (who started in the 19th century). Many more denominations -- all founded after 1520 -- could be listed (e.g., Methodism, Presbyterianism, Salvation Army, various tiny Fundamentalist and Evangelical sects, United Church of Christ, Brethren, Disciples of Christ, Quaker, Congregational, Seventh Day Adventist, Church(es) of Christ, etc.). All Protestant denominations teach some Christian truths (inherited from Catholicism), but, being founded by mere sinful men, they also ignore some Christian truths, and they teach some errors.

Not one of these denominations is "apostolic," for they do not have bishops that are successors of Jesus's twelve apostles (as do the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox). These denominations reject the oral teaching of the apostles, handed down through the generations by the Catholic and Orthodox. The Protestant denominations all differ from each other in one or more ways -- thus not exhibiting the unity that Jesus gave to his Catholic Church.

I invite you to investigate the Catholic Church thoroughly, Carole. I hope that you will choose to join me as a Catholic some day.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

DEAR FRIENDS OF GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT: I AM AN 85 YEAR OLD CODGER AND HAVE BELONGED TO THREE DEMONIATIONS IN MY LIFE TIME. TWO WITH OUT ME CONSENT AND THE LAST, BEING CATHOLIC, BY MY OWN CHOICE. NOW I DON'T BELONG TO ANY ORGANIZED RELIGION AT ALL.WHEN YOU START TO DISCUSS RELIGIONS YOU MISS THE POINT OF WHAT CHRIST WANTS OF US AS HIS FOLLOWERS. AS I SAID BEFORE "THE THREE ARE ONE" SO CHRIST IS ALSO GOD. AND THE ONLY THING HE WANTS OF US IS ALL OUR LOVE AND OBEDIENCE. CHRIST NEVER STARTED A RELIGION, CHURCH OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT MAN CONTRIVES TO GET US BACK INTO HEAVEN. CHRIST DID ALL OF THAT AND MORE. HIS DIEING ON THE CROSS AND ENDURING ALL THE MORTAL PAIN THAT HE DID WAS ONLY FOR OUR BENIFIT FOR WE AS HUMANS CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND PHYSICAL PAIN BUT THE WORST PAIN AND SUFFERING WAS IN THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE, FOR THAT IS WHERE HE AND HIS FATHER DISCUSSED HIS FAIT AND IT WAS ALMOST MORE THAN CHRIST COULD STAND FOR HE SAID "IF THIS CUP CAN BE LIFTED BUT NOT MY WILL BUT THINE BE DONE" DO YOU REALY THINK ANY HUMAN COULD HAVE WITHSTOOD THE PAIN OF TAKING ALL OF THE SINS OF MAN THAT WENT BEFORE AND CARRIED THEM TO THE CROSS WHERE HE SAID "FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO" AND THEN HE TOOK ALL THOSE SINS TO THE GRAVE WITH HIM AND FROM THAT TIME ON MADE SURE THAT WE TOO COULD TAKE ALL OUR SINS TO THE GRAVE WITH US WHEN THIS OLD PHYSICAL BODY GIVES UP THE LIFE GOD GAVE IT TO EXIST HERE ON EARTH BUT OUR SOULS ARE REBORN BACK INTO HEAVEN FROM WHENCE THEY CAME. OUR SOULS CANNOT SIN FOR IT IS FROM GOD BUT ONLY OUR PHYSICAL BODIES SIN FOR THEY ARE FROM THE EARTH. I DON'T BELONG TO ANY ORGANIZED RELIGION FOR THEY ALL THINK THAT IF YOU DON'T BELONG TO WHAT THEY DO THEN YOU ARE SURELY GOING TO HELL. WHERE IS THE BROTHERLY LOVE IN THAT. GOD SAID "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS YOU DO YOURSELF" IN THE LORDS PRAYER IS A PART THAT SAYS "FORGIVE ME MY SINS AS I FORGIVE THOSE THAT SIN AGAINST ME" ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT THAT? WHAT REALY BOTHERS ME IN THE LORDS PRAYER AS WE ARE ALL TAUGHT IS WHERE IT SAYS "LEADE US NOT INTO TEMPTATION" WHO ARE YOU PRAYING TO GOD OR SATAN? IF SATAN THEN THAT IS APPROPERATE BUT IF TO GOD, THEN TELL ME, DO YOU REALY THINK GOD WOULD LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION? NOT IN MY BOOK !!!!!!!!! IF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS SUCH A WONDERFUL INSTITUTION THEN WHY DIDN' THE POPE ADMINISH THE CARDNEL LAW? WHAT ABOUT ALL THE CRUSADES THAT KILLED ANYONE THAT WASN'T CATHOLIC. NOT TO DEFEND THE PRODICENDS (S/P). DID YOU EVER HEAR OF THE "KILLING TIMES" IN SCOTLAND. TOO MANY TO QUOTE THEM ALL. BUT REMENBER WHWN POINTING A FINGER AT SOME OTHER RELIGION THERE ARE ALWAYS THREE POINTING BACK AT YOU. HOW ABOUT "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THY SELF" HOW ABOUT "DO GOOD TO THOSE THAT HATE YOU" HOW ABOUT "FORGIVE US OUR SINS AS WE FORGIVE THOSE THAT SIN AGAINST US" HOW ABOUT BEING "A GOOD SEMARITAN?" JUST REMEMBER IF ONE HAS A SUPREME BEING TO WORSHIP THEN THE ONE HE WORSHIPS IS THE SAME AS THE ONE WE WORSHIP FOR THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD AND HE IS THE FATHER OF US ALL REGARDLESS OF WHAT NAME WE GIVE HIM FOR EVEN WE THE SOCALLED CHRISTIANS HAVE MANY NAMES FOR GOD. GOD DON'T CARE WHAT NAME WE GIVE HIM SO LONG AS WE KEEP THAT NAME HOLY. SORRY FOR THE SERMON AND I'M SURE YOU WON'T ANSWER ME FOR WE HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENCES OF WHAT GOD WANTS OF US BUT REMEMBER ALL HE WANTS IS "ALL OUR LOVE AND OBEDIENCE" YOUR OLD FRIEND LES. A MOMENT TO PRAY

I have a friend in Jesus He heeds my every prayer I ask a many a favor for I know He's always there

He promised to be with me through all my wearisome life He holds out His hand to help me o'er all my struggles and strife

I cherish this Friend my Jesus I try to love Him as He does me and when life's trials are over He promised I could kneel there at His knee

I have a friend in Jesus I know He's at my side He'll help me up the stairs to Heaven So with Him and God I shall abide

By L.M.Willson



-- LESLIE M. WILLSON SR. (LMWILLSON@AOL.COM), April 19, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Dear Leslie,

Certainly the love of God must be central in the life of every Christian. Jesus told us "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35) However, Jesus also told us "the truth will set you free" (John 8:32). This means that if we reject the truth, we reject freedom, no matter how much we love one another. Anyone can love their friends, even those who reject Christ (Luke 6:32) So, if love were the whole story, any church would do, or even no church at all. But, love has to be combined with truth. God is love (1 John 4:16). But God is also truth (John 14:6). To reject love is to reject God. To reject truth is to reject God. If truth matters, then just any church will not do, for manmade churches teach conflicting doctrines, and conflicting doctrines necessarily mean false doctrines. Jesus founded one Church (Matt 16:18) for all men. He guaranteed that His Church would teach the fullness of truth (John 16:13; Luke 10:16; Matt 18:18). The word of God identifies that Church as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). God calls all men to belong to that Church, a church of love and of hope, but also a Church of truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 19, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Peace be with you, Les.

Scripturally speaking, Our Lord Jesus Christ did, indeed found a Church and a religion. "You are Peter," ("Rock") "and upon this Rock I will build My Church."

The early Church Fathers also testify to the observance of the Sacraments, which were instituted by Christ to nourish His faithful people.

Please consider coming home to the Catholic faith. We are One Body in Christ, and we miss you as a member of this Mystical Body.

Pax Christi. <><

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), April 21, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

I must admit that somewhere along my life my faith has undertaken a severe shaking. I believe in God, and I believe in being good and doing unto others as I would have done to me. What I don't understand is "churches". I have read the bible many times and have examined history books and I have yet to come across any reference to a "named" church. Baptists believe it is the baptist church, Catholics devoutly believe it is their church, Church of Christ believe is is them. Who do I believe? Do I believe a Catholic deacon who was trained reading materials provided by the Catholic church that would of course tout the Catholic church as the only means to heaven? Do I believe a Baptist or Methodist Preacher who was trained in a college that provided materials biased to that point of view? For every answer I seek, I find a seperate church ready and willing to supply the "right" answer. Of course all of these people can quote from the bible and back their argument up. Each one is in complete agreement on one thing...the other religions or churches are wrong. They each believe the only true way to heaven is through them. Where do you find the correct answers when you can't trust printed words on paper? The bible is full of inaccuracies. I took a history course and found out that Moses didn't part the Red Sea...he parted the Reed Sea. The bible that I have always trusted wasn't accurate. Someone mistranslated it. If something so profound could be "mistranslated", what else didn't make it? Do you see my dilema? I want to know, I want my faith back, I want to believe that there is something more to this world than wars, fighting about religion, poverty, abuse, and crime. I would like answers and no one can give them to me without pointing a finger at someone else and saying they are wrong. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thank you very much for your time.

-- Shonte Warhurst (swarhurst@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

The Reed Sea ??? :-)

You say you have studied history. That's where the answers to your questions lie, since it is historical, not doctrinal questions you are asking. History plainly reveals that there was only one Christian Church in existence for more than 1,000 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. That historical observation is backed up by the teaching of Jesus, who clearly said that it was His will there would be one and only one Church. That of course is a logical necessity, since the purpose of the Church is to present men with the truth, and truth can exist only in unity. This also explains why the early Church did not need to be identified by a name. The purpose of names is to differentiate between similar entities. If there was only one substance human beings could eat, the term "food" would suffice. We wouldn't need words like meat and vegetables and yogurt. Similarly, the term "the Church" was sufficient identification in the beginning, because it was the only one that existed. It was not necessary to speak of this church vs. that church, and this was the way God intended it to be. But men fell away from God's plan and began founding churches of their own, without divine authorization, teaching doctrines which conflicted with the truths of the Church Jesus Himself had founded. That's when names became necessary. In spite of this fact however, the original Church which Jesus founded did choose a name for itself. Historical documents reveal that the original Church was calling itself the Holy Catholic Church by the end of the first century. And it still does so today.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 09, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

I believe the word "catholic", in greek I presume, was in common usage before the end of the first century A.D.. I think there are extant texts showing its usage but I do not know where they are located. Thank you.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 09, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

The oldest written record we have of the name "Holy Catholic Church" is the text of St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, dating from 107 A.D. However, Ignatius used the term freely, without any explanation of its meaning, so it is apparent he was not introducing a new term, but using a name his readers - the early Christian Church - were already thoroughly familiar with.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 09, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Hi again...your answers were very helpful in giving me a direction to look in. Let me ask you this question...what are the differences in all these bibles I see. I see the King James Version, the New American translation etc of bibles. Which in your research and learning tend to be more accurate? And your wrong about one thing...its not historical accuracies alone that I am looking for. My faith and trust is built upon truth. I have an analytical mind that will not accept any other way than to be presented with all facts. This forum has helped immensely and for that I am grateful. What other reading material can help answer these questions I have? Thanks once again!

-- Shonte Warhurst (swarhurst@hotmail.com), May 12, 2003.

Response to when was the baptist religion started.

When I was at that point in my life, in my twenties, when I needed to discern where I thought "legitimacy" was regarding christianity I tried to find the oldest "stuff" that was still around to be read from as close to Jesus time as I could. I reasoned that those who may have heard him or heard someone who heard him would more likely be closer to what he said than the people of my time. I also thought that what was practiced and what was believed or commonly held back then could give me a clue why things were and are the way they are.

So, I found a three or four volume, paperbacked set, of books called something like Faith of the Fathers. What it contained was the english translations of the oldest works which are still in existance from christians or near christians of the time from the apostolic era through Augustine. I read it alot and decided that the threads of early christianity ran most consistantly within Catholicism. So, I chose to remain in the Church of my baptism and I still feel the same way regarding early christianity and catholicism.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 12, 2003.


Response to when was the baptist religion started.

Jmj
Hello, Shonte.

You asked about reliable versions of the Bible.
I have to join with most orthodox Catholic apologists today in recommending the "Revised Standard Version -- Catholic Edition" [RSV-CE]. You may see the printed version advertised as the "Ignatius Bible" (because, after being out of print for a while, Ignatius Press began to publish it again in the 1990s). I believe that the translation was done between 1940 and 1960, so it makes use of much of the fruits of modern archaeology. It is considered a faithful, yet readable, version -- but it does not have as many footnotes as lots of people like. It does not use the kind of archaic (sometimes tough to understand) language found in the King James Versions of the Bible.

The RSV-CE, as such, is not accessible on the Internet. However, the next best thing, the RSV (non-Catholic edition) is here, where I use it very frequently. This online version does have the seven books that are missing from Protestant bibles, though they are mislabeled as "apochrypha."

Here is a link to the online copy of the New American Bible, which is the version from which every day's readings are drawn for the Mass.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 12, 2003.


A very interesting thread. I want to thank everyone who have contributed, but most especially Paul. Your persistance in stating your case is appreciated. I don't claim to know or appreciate all "the truths of the church" but I do relish my journey to get there. You've provided a lot of both interesting and insightful scenery to contemplate as I make my way. I truly believe that my church is a faithful guide, but I'm not ready to completely discount all the rest of humanity. There is so much to learn from "all" of God's creation.

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), May 13, 2003.

Hey Karl and Shonte, you can read the writings of the Church Fathers on-line at http://www.ccel.org/fathers2 VOLUMES AND VOLUMES!

I was so excited to hear your reasoning that "closer-is-better". That is what lead me to the writings of the Church Fathers as well, and hence into the Church. When I found out I could read them on- line I nearly collapsed from excitement. I even quit my job for six months so I could read, read, read.

It is strange to me that others do not see it that way. I talk to Protestant folk all the time who could simply care less what 1st, 2nd generation Christianity looked like, what they believed, how they worshipped. What is sort of comical to me now is that so many churches think they are the "real McCoy," that they are reflecting the apostolic church. After you read the writings of the Fathers, you see how woefully short they have fallen. (No offense to my Protestant bros and sisses.) It's just that there is NO COMPARISON!

Gots to go,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 16, 2003.


Dear Gail,

Thank you. You are sadly correct when you lament that others do not approch their questions from that perspective.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.


Thanks Gail, Paul, and Karl and everyone else. I'm going to look into all the online and paper resources you have listed. My only obstacle right now is my sister who adamantly believes that her church (Baptist-something-or-other)is on the true path and I just cannot believe that since its teachings and works have not been around that long (relatively). Any suggestions how I might try to persuade her into letting me alone and letting my beliefs work for me? She has already condemned my grandmother and parents for their beliefs (grandmother is Catholic)and will not believe anything that does not come from her preacher and coworkers mouths. I love my sister very much, but since she has immersed herself into these ideas, she has become a zealot. Anyways, enough of my troubles...thank you all so very much. Shonte'

-- Shonte' Warhurst (swarhurst@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.

Shonte, my heart grieves for you. I just lost a very dear friend who is a fundamentalist zealot, much like your sister. If you push too hard with your sis, she will shake you off like the proverbial "dust on her feet," which is what my 'friend' did to me. Unfortunately, my friend was not even willing to look at the evidence of Catholicism. She put her hands over her ears, shut her eyes and basically screamed, "Don't confuse me with the truth."

Here are a few question you may ask your sister, nonchalantly:

The Bible says that the "Church is the foundation of the truth." What church? Scripture NOWHERE claims to be the foundation of the truth, but instead points to The Church. (My friend couldn't answer that one.)

Jesus formed an authoritative church while He was on earth. What happened to that Church? (Most Protestants believe it just disappeared)

Where do we get the New Testament? Who put it together? When did they put it together? What books did they authenticate? When did they deem them scripture? Your sister is probably unaware that the Church (Catholic bishops) canonized the N.T. in the late 300's, early 400's. The apochypha was part of the O.T. canon which was re- authorized at that time. The Reformers took those books out during the Reformation. So, the Bible she touts is minus 7 important books, and the N.T. she studies was assembled by "Catholics."

I can provide proof texts for everything I just claimed. Let me know if you would like that proof.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 18, 2003.


i find it rather humerous how all of you seem to enjoy arguing about your religions and defending your beliefs to others who seem to believe different. it doesn't matter what religion you practice or which traditions you respect more, it's the fact that you believe in something greater than yourselves. growing up in a catholic family i was never able to understand the teachings of God and the Bible. to this day i do not believe in any one being contributing to the creation of life. it's not that i don't want to either, it's that i need proof, i need to be able to see what i'm believing. i really feel you should all just stick to your own beliefs and let other people believe thiers. create your own religion within yourselves and be happy that you have the power to believe. it doesn't matter what any one believes in, the fact that they can believe in something is powerful enough. someone previously stated that there are flaws in numerous religions, but i'd hate to break it to you, there are flaws in every religion. even catholicisim, and being raised a catholic i have noticed several. trust me i have researched plenty of religions looking for somewhere to belong or something to believe... and if there was a flawless religion, that's what i'd be, but being as i am still athiest i don't believe either of you can say that one religion is more pure or that someone elses beliefs are incorrect... grow up and get past yourselves, be happy that everyone contributing to this page has some belief or another. whether it's your belief, their belief, the bible's belief... who cares, it's something that far suprasses all of us, whatever your beliefs

-- kat (ski__bunny@hotmail.com), June 12, 2003.

"it doesn't matter what any one believes in, the fact that they can believe in something is powerful enough"

HUH?? Have you ever been to school? If so, why did you bother? I mean, you could have thought of SOMETHING to believe whether you had gone to school or not. You could believe that the earth orbits Jupiter, that 6 + 6 = 42, and that Michael Jackson was the first President of the United States. What would be wrong with these beliefs? After all, "it doesn't matter what any one believes in, the fact that they can believe in something is enough, right? Of course, society at large would consider you an idiot for stating such beliefs, because they recognize there is such a thing as objective truth, something which you apparently deny. No, it doesn't matter what you believe, or what church you belong to. Unless truth matters. Unless reality matters. In that case it matters a great deal what you believe. Because if you believe with all your heart and mind and soul and strength something that is untrue, then you are simply WRONG, and out of touch with objective reality.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 12, 2003.


Well, Kat, you are right that you have an option to believe in nothing, and we, on the other hand have a right to our beliefs.

I find it humerous that you have come to a Catholic thread with the sole purpose of chastizing those of us with strongly held beliefs. How intolerant of you! Especially, since this IS a thread about the Christian faith, particularly Catholic, so I would assume that you realized that when you poked your head in here! It's sort of like barging into a stranger's house, unannounced, and demanding to know why they are having ravioli for supper tonight.

You say you are an atheist. Honestly I don't know how one could look at the artwork of creation and not anticipate an artist! That is illogical. Christianity is based on facts and evidence, and then subjectively based on experience, i.e., meeting Christ!

Paul is 100% correct; what you believe effects every decision you make. It shapes your personality. It molds your character. And most importantly, it determines your eternal destiny. Look at it this way, if God believing people die and it turns out they were WRONG, they really haven't lost anything, except the chance to sin and wreak havoc on their lives and the lives of others. BUT if you, an atheist or Godless person, die and it turns out YOU were wrong, you have lost EVERYTHING! It takes A LOT more faith to believe in nothing.

Looking at the vast universe, its complexities, its art, it's glory, the moon, stars, endless numbers of animals and plants, can you say with absolute 100% certainty, no doubting whatsoever, that there is no God?

Respectfully,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 13, 2003.


Gail:

You wrote to kat:

"Look at it this way, if God believing people die and it turns out they were WRONG, they really haven't lost anything, except the chance to sin and wreak havoc on their lives and the lives of others. BUT if you, an atheist or Godless person, die and it turns out YOU were wrong, you have lost EVERYTHING! "

What you are describing is a two party strategy game, without information transfer, that is commonly referred to as "The Prisoner's Dilemma". When crime accomplices are separated after being caught, they almost always rat on each other, becuase they don't know what the other is going to say about their part in the crime. Similarily with repect to belief in God and afterlife, the great majority of people will opt for belief for the reason Gail stated. This believer fraction becomes almost 100% as people age and fully appreciate their mortality.

Religious institutions our selling a product, an expedited pass to heaven and the afterlife with Christ, for which demand is very inelastic. The more that is supplied, the more that is bought. The Catholic Church held a monopoly on this product for a long time, but like all monopolies, there is eventually a rupture, or splintering. It is just the nature of human social institutions and economic fundamentals The Protestant reformation probably helped the Catholic Church immensly by throwing in some competition. It helps to keep the Church leaders on their toes.

You may wonder why I wrote this and I would say that this extremely interesting and thoughtful debate is as much about the The Church as The Firm as it is about Christ's message for us. I do worry in our society that we have replaced the search for Truth as the highest goal with the search for Tolerance (read social and moral relativism).

Having said that, I would still say lets worry about the truth on the big things and we can let slide some of the nits. My own belief is that if Christ where to hear and see the various human variations and institution we have derived to deilver his message, He would say, "Yeah that's about right, close enough, just make sure you love thy neighbor and you strive to find and accept all for the good that they have in them."

Regards,

Jeff

-- (jlbinder@tds.net), July 17, 2003.


Dear Jeff,

Unfortunately, there are no Christian truths, "big" or "little", that all Protestants agree about. The fact of personal interpretation is such a serious violation of God's will that disunity is the inevitable result on every doctrinal issue it is applied to. Which of the following do you classify as "nits"? ... The sacraments; the priesthood; the authority of the Pope; the means of receiving salvation; the Trinity; the divinity of Christ; the identity of the Church founded by Christ for all men; the intercession of the saints; Purgatory; the necessity of Baptism ... just to name a few of the widely contested beliefs.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 18, 2003.


it's that i need proof, i need to be able to see what i'm believing.

Kat

Read the Bible girl. John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; BLESSED are those who HAVE NOT seen and yet have believed."

-- teena (tinaabruz@aol.com), July 20, 2003.


I would just like to say, John baptized. He was known as John the Baptist. Jesus himself seeked out John for the purpose of being baptized. Can we therefore say that baptistism started with him? For all the argument that you fellow Christians have been throwing back and forth I havent yet read the reason why Jesus wanted to be baptized. Correct me if I am wrong but is it not to "wash" away the filth of the world? To be reborn, anew? God said that to be "born again" you must accept the sacrifice that our lord and savior Jesus made for us. Ask Jesus to come into our hearts, to forgive us of our sins. And yes we are all sinners. If we were not, then we would not have had the need for Jesus. And then to live our lives as Jesus lived his. God knows that we are not perfect, can never be perfect. He sent a willing sacrifice. Accept that. I believe that there is only one truth. "I am the truth" "I am" that to me can only be one, God. So the truth is God and only God. The "word" was written by God through men. It is his Word. Once we all understand the simple requests of God we will all be better off.

I do have a few questions for the Catholic church.

1. Why are you the only ones who have Crosses hanging in your churches with Jesus on them? I ask this only because a friend of mine said that to him you were mounting Jesus like a trophy buck.

2. Why do you pray to Mary, and to saints?

Mary, though she was special, was only a women chosen to bring Jesus into the world. She was not a Super being.

3. Who gives the Priest of the Catholic Church the authority to forgive sin?

Please do not take my quetions in a wrong way. I truly want to know and understand the answers to these questions.

I pray that peace come to our world, and that all nations can live as brothers.

In Jesus name.

Your brother in God, Paul

3.

-- Paul Cadena (bigpapapaul1@msn.com), July 24, 2003.


Hi Paul, you asked:

"1. Why are you the only ones who have Crosses hanging in your churches with Jesus on them? I ask this only because a friend of mine said that to him you were mounting Jesus like a trophy buck." ANSWER: We aren't the only ones, but the reason is to ALWAYS remind us of Christ's sufferings for us on the Cross, what He endured for our sakes. Christ atoned for our sins ON THE CROSS. We must never forget or take the cross of Christ in vain.

"2. Why do you pray to Mary, and to saints?" ANSWER: They are our brothers and sisters in the Lord. They are our "heavenly prayer partners." We ask them for their intercessions, the same way you might ask for the prayers of any of your bros and sisses. We do not ask them to "foretell" the future, as diviners do. We do not worship the saints. We simply do not believe they are cut off from the land of the living, THEY ARE REALLY LIVING with Lord in Glory! They are active, living, vital members of the body of Christ.

You said, "Mary, though she was special, was only a women chosen to bring Jesus into the world. She was not a super being." ANSWER: Mary is a creature, she is not part of the Godhead. She is our "mother-in-the-Lord" as she is the mother of the Lord. She is extraordinary in that no other woman ever bore the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. No other woman nursed God at her bosom. No other woman raised a God-man from birth. No other woman watched her grown son, the God-man, crucified. No other woman suffered as did Mary, and why did she suffer? For us, her children "in-the-Lord." And what is her reward? Watching us poor pitiful sinners turn to her son for redemption. And what is she doing in heaven? Praying for the many to turn to her beloved son in repentence and to walk in newness of life.

"3. Who gives the Priest of the Catholic Church the authority to forgive sin?" ANSWER: Jesus Christ in the gospel of John 20:23 when He says to the disciples "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." The Priest has the duty and obligation to speak the words of God, "Son, your sins are forgiven." He also has the duty, if a parishioner is in habitual unrepentent sin to withwold those precious words.

We are all sinners in need of His grace. Grace, grace and more grace!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 24, 2003.


Dear Paul,

You say: "I would just like to say, John baptized. He was known as John the Baptist. Jesus himself seeked out John for the purpose of being baptized. Can we therefore say that baptism started with him?"

A: Yes, baptism of a sort existed before Jesus. So did marriage, and intercession for the sick, and ordination to priesthood. But Jesus elevated these acts to the status of sacraments, powerful acts of God Himself which do not just symbolize something, but actually bring it about, and also supply a special outpouring of grace to allow its generated effect to endure. John's baptism did not wash away sin, nor did it allow a person to be born again. It was just a symbolic act. Sacramental baptism does wash away sin (Acts 2:38, 22;16) and does give new birth (John 3:3-5). So, to say that Jesus instituted the seven sacraments doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility that a superficially similar, non-sacramental rite may have previously existed in Judaism or even in paganism.

You say: "I believe that there is only one truth."

A: So do I! And as I see it, the necessary conclusion which that belief demands is that a system which produces many different conflicting beliefs cannot be of God, for truth cannot conflict with truth. This is why Jesus did not found a denominational system, but only One True Church, teaching the same truth in all times and places.

You ask: "Why are you the only ones who have Crosses hanging in your churches with Jesus on them?"

A: Jesus is many things to us - friend, brother, Lord, God, Savior. But the essential reason that God became man was to redeem us - that is, to be our Savior. His death on the cross is the moment of our salvation. Therefore, as saved people, we commemorate the act by which we were saved. In so doing, we follow the example of Paul, who wrote "we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:23-24). I fail to see why preaching Christ crucified would be a stumbling block for your friend, if he is Christian.

You ask: "Why do you pray to Mary, and to saints? "

A: We talk to other Christians, both those on earth and those in heaven, to ask them to pray for us. Asking other Christians for prayer of intercession is an essential aspect of Christianity from day one. Don't you ask other Christians to pray for you? Of course, you may have been exposed to the idea that "talking to dead people" is unscriptural. Some Protestant groups take the scriptural condemnation of necromancy, and try to apply it to the intercession of the saints. This is just one example of the danger of trying to interpret scripture for yourself, without divine guidance. The Bible clearly states that the saints are not dead (John 11:26). Therefore, there is no reason why they cannot continue to pray for us, just as they did while on earth. And there is no reason why we should not ask them to do so, just as we did while they were on earth.   You state: "Mary, though she was special, was only a women chosen to bring Jesus into the world. She was not a Super being"

A: Yes, she was and is special indeed - most blessed of all women - the only human being God ever described as "filled with grace". But, she is definitely a human being, not a divinity. Catholics are well aware of this. If she were divine, we would not ask her intercession, since intercession is something that human beings do for one another.

You ask: "Who gives the Priest of the Catholic Church the authority to forgive sin? "

A: Jesus Christ did, as clearly described in the Bible. (John 20:22-23) The apostles were the first priests of His Church.

In Christ, Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 24, 2003.


1. Crosses-Exodus 20:4,5 "You shall NOT make for yourself an idol IN THE FORM OF ANYTHING in HEAVEN ABOVE (Jesus-Mary) or on the earth beneath or the waters below. You shall NOT bow down to them or worship them; for I,the Lord your God, am a jealous God,.......

And I say to you, If Daddy said Don't, than Don't. And another thing, Jesus is not longer on the cross.

2. Mary-John 16:23 & 26, 27

......My father will give you whatever you ask in my name. ......I am not saying I will ask the Father on your behalf. No the father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

If Jesus, who is supreme over all, is saying to us that he will not ask the father for us, than why do you think Mary can? And he is plainly explaining to us that we can go to the father with prayer because we believe in Jesus. Also, who gives you what you need? 3 Priest-Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,.... Jesus gave the disciples the authority to make more disciples. If your spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ and are obeying his commands, you are his disciples not only the priest in church. Tell everyone you who are disciples that they are forgiven in the Name of Jesus. Amen.

-- teena (tinaabruz@aol.com), July 25, 2003.


Teena, Catholics do not worship statues. I guess that is your implication by the scripture you quoted. We do not worship a statue of Christ on the cross, though seeing Christ on the cross is a constant reminder of his suffering for us.

Using your logic, a Christian has no need to have prayer needs brought to the Lord through prayer partners. That is unbiblical. Catholics believe the more people you having praying, the better.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 25, 2003.


Gail

If you do not worship a statue, why do you go on your knees to them, and light candles to them, and kiss them, put them in shrines. What is that called if it is not called worship. And that still does not make it just. A statue is still a form of something someone MADE and the Lord said not too. Why do you think Jeremiah threw those statues on the ground when he seen them. And still I say to you if Jesus himself said he will not ask the Father on our behalf, then why should those statues, which are less supreme, be able? 1Timothy 2:5, 6 For there is one God and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.

-- teena (tinaabruz@aol.com), July 25, 2003.


Teena,

Didn't God give Israel specific instructions in how to build the ark of the covenant? And didn't those instructions tell the Israelites to construct figures of cheribum (as their wings were a covering over the ark)? And this isn't the only time God told them to make statues of things (remember Moses' serpent? how about the instructions for building the temple?) So based on your interpretation of the commandment, God told the Israelites to commit idolatry. Well, since we know God would never do that, then your interpretation of idolatry must be wrong. Think about it.

How is making a cross versus making a crucifix any different in terms of being idolatrous? The bare cross reminds us of Christ's resurrection and it's wonderful to use as a synbol of our faith. The crucifix reminds us of the awesome price Christ paid for our salvation and it's a wonderful symbol of our faith. Yet both are images of things on earth or on heaven.

You have a legalistic attitude and it's hindering your faith - remember, legalism is as the seed of the Pharisees. I spent 20 years in the Assemblies of God as a faithful participant and teacher, so I know a bit about what and why you believe such things.

God never intended his commandment against making idols to hinder the wonderful artistic talents he bestowed on His people. Making a statue is no different than making a painting - yet I'll bet you don't have a problem with a painting that reminds you of your faith. Would a portrait of Christ in the garden of Gethsemene throw you into an idolatrous act? Of course not, it would bring those scriptures to mind and cause you to think on that event and appreciate all that Jesus did for you and perhaps provoke you to worship him. Would a portrait of Billy Graham preaching a sermon at Madison Square garden be idolatrous? How about a photo of that same event? Yet your standard for condemning a crucifix would have to apply in the same way. He is a creaure of the earth and those things are images.

I have no problems with making a statue of a saint as a reminder of their Godly example. I do, though, disagree with kneeling before that statue and praying to that statue. That I view not as a deliberate act of idolatry, but rather as an error in faith. It's no worse than your legalistic beliefs condemning the crucifix as a symbol of faith.

Anyway, I hope I've given you some food for thought.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), July 25, 2003.


To kneel before a statue and pray TO that statue would be not just an error in faith, but also a serious departure from reality. Statues don't hear. Fortunately, NO-ONE does that. To kneel before a statue or picture in order to help you visualize the person represented by the statue, while you are speaking to that living person, is certainly appropriate. Just like looking at your wife's picture while she is away on a trip and you are speaking to her on the phone.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 25, 2003.

Where in the Bible does it say to make a statue of Mary? Where does it say God specifally told some one to do that? When God told them to build things they told them how and why. Ex. 20: 24-26 God did not want you to make statues because some people (as you can plainly read in the Bible) take it to the extreme. And another thing, I believe my faith to be strong enough to know I don't need a picture/statue in front of me to ask God to forgive me. And to throw direct insults at me because I quote scripture, isn't of the Lord. And so what spirit is it? Cross vs. Crux. it doesn't matter, it's how people take it to the extreme. And as far as prayer partners; the Bible clearly states, For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.(spirit) Pharisee, I am not. I love my Jesus just as much as you do. Bless you.

-- teena (tinaabruz@aol.com), July 25, 2003.

Where in the Bible does it say to build churches? Where does it say to put pews in them? Where does it say to build a parking lot outside the chuch? Are you suggesting that we can't do ANYTHING unless the Bible specifically tells us to? The Bible tells us that Mary is blessed among all women. It tells us that she is full of grace. It tells us that she brought our Savior into the world. It is clear from such information about Mary that she should be given special honor for her role in God's plan of salvation - a role which was not simply a personal response to God, but a unique ministry reaching out and serving all mankind until the end of time. Why are you so afraid to show respect for the mother of God? Do you think it takes something away from a person to honor their mother? When someone honors my mother, I feel pleased. I don't feel like they gave her something that I might have otherwise had for myself. We honor people who merely served our country in a temporal way. Surely we should honor someone who served the entire world in a timeless way.

The Bible does NOT forbid making statues. It forbids making and worshipping them. Please don't confuse idolatry with statuary. They are quite different.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 25, 2003.


teena, This may have already been said by another person.

This is a lengthy thread and I just don't have the time to read all that I would like.

But, please consider this question:

Have you ever knelt at the foot of the cross? Do you pray to the cross or what it represents?

Do you ever go to a cemetary and talk to your relatives who have passed on?

"Praying to saints" is not the most correct term. Perhaps a better term is asking people who have gone before us to pray with us. Hopefully, they are in closer proximity to God than us.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), July 25, 2003.


Tell me then, What does it mean then when God clearly states, You shall not MAKE for yourself an IDOL in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.? Stick to the point. Mary's obedience to the Lord is well recognized and I don't argue with that. Yes she is blessed to have carried our Lord. But I refer back to what I previously proposed. Just review my comments and may your eyes be open to what is written. In the name of Jesus. Amen. Blessing to all who oppose.

-- teena (tinaabruz@aol.com), July 25, 2003.

My eyes ARE open to what is written. What is written is "You shall not bow down to them or worship them"!!! The whole passage is a condemnation of IDOLATRY! You can't pull one verse out of the passage and treat it as though the rest of the passage didn't exist! The passage says "don't make and worship idols". That is its message! It is ridiculous to take half the passage, ignore the rest of it, and try to present it as a divine ordinance forbidding STATUARY! There is nothing immoral about statues! There IS something immoral about worshipping false gods! Thank GOD His own Church has not fallen into the absurdities of sola scriptura and private interpretation!

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 25, 2003.

Paul, I think you mean sola-half-a-scriptura!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 25, 2003.


Thank you Gail for the address to the writings of the Church Father's. I look forward to perusing the text. I have found this a very enlightening thread, and it has answered several very important questions I needed answers to. I am going to see about starting RCIA at my local Church. (I have never received the Sacrament of Baptism) I hope that this time when I see about it, I can satisfy myself and the Priest with the answer to the question-: "What drew you to the Church?" Last time I went to see about it, it was an unfortunate time, as the Priest was transfering, and also people have not been joining our local Church, so RCIA is difficult to arrange, or so I was told. I was asked then what brought me to the Church, and I prattled on for a few moments about 'just feeling drawn' to the Church, but being ill versed in Church doctrine, I couldn't get all philisophical about it, I guess... Even to my own ears this did not sound satisfactory, but the Priest took it in good grace and we talked for a few short while. He gave me a book titled 'At Home With God's People' a Book of Texts, and a small folder with 18 leaflets concerning various aspects of the faith, and asked me to leave my details and he would see if he could arrange for RCIA classes. Well either he left and the other Priest was not enlightened of my situation or they plonked me in the 'not commited enough', basket and have left me dangling for a while; anyway, I have decided I am going back and this time I am armed with a more satisfactory response for all concerned. I believe that the good Lord has given me this time to truly get to know myself and my needs and whether I truly feel the Church is my destiny; well with the Grace of God, I believe I am now ready. I am not saying I am full of knowledge, but I am certainly feeling far better equipt to answer some of the questions that may get thrown my way. It is true, God won't make us face anything we aren't capable of. Armed with a little knowledge, I am excited to get started on this new chapter of my life, and with the help of you, My future sister's and brother's in Christ, I look forward to learning more. Thanks everyone for your brilliant insight. I know sometimes the thread can seem a little 'fractious' when people are at loggerheads, but I am finding that out of these little 'niggles', etc some of the most amazing information is being delivered to those of us who are craving knowledge. (Just my humble opinion) Thanks again, everyone. Anyway, I'm Off to watch my favourite religious programme, 'Brides of Christ' while hubby is out of the house... May God grant us all peace and wisdom, Seonad.

-- Seonad (Shona) (gonetroppo_31@yahoo.co.uk), July 26, 2003.

Shona, that is EXCELLENT NEWS. When I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism it was THE MOST amazing transformation I have ever been through. I was so enchanted with the Church I couldn't think of anything else; reading, reading, reading. I read the writings of the Saints, the writings of the Church fathers. It was like a thirst I couldn't quench. FINALLY, I had ancestors in the faith whose diaries I could actually read; a family whose lineage can be traced right back to the apostles! That is what you will find in the Church Fathers.

Much love to you,

Gail

P.S. Shona, just a wee-bit of advice. Satan hates converts BIG- TIME. He will oppose you, BUT be of good cheer for Christ is the Victor!! Be PERSISTENT! Knock, then POUND if you have to.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 26, 2003.


Nothing to add but obviously found this place by Gods hand. Thank you all for the information from Dec 19, 2002 to present.

-- Adam (acsotrl@hotmail.com), July 27, 2003.

Thanks you for the welcome, Gail. I know precisely how you feel. I have searched for the truth. Wanting to know the one true church, and at long last, I have found it. I was raised in an Anglican (Episcopalian, if I'm not mistaken, is the American equivalent; please correct me if I am wrong)even though I was not baptised. My family think I am loopy since I told them I was going to join the Catholic Church, but honestly for once in my life, I am happy to go against their wishes, which I have to say is rare for me. I have always had the greatest respect for their opinions, as I still do, but as this decision affects me alone, I am happy top make the leap of faith.(Pardon the pun). I feel so spiritually uplifted now I have made the desicion. Having said that; I was disappointed today. I mentioned before that my Church has a dwindling attendance. It seems that has had a detrimental effect. I went to see the Priest today and discovered the office is only open twice a week! The church therefore unattended, is locked; I suppose unless it is required for some ceremony or another or Mass on Saturday evening or Sunday morning. Gone are the days it seems, when you could walk in any time and talk with God, in His house. Now I've finished grizzling, I have a question regarding Idolatry, if no-one minds. I was reading Jeremiah 3:19 and it seems to me that Jesus is telling the people not to make idols of false gods, pagan gods, i.e. Baal, the god of shame. Not, as some believe, not to make statues of Christ our Saviour, Our Lady and the Saints. Please correct me if this is wrong, as I am new to these teachings and truly wish to understand it, as a faithful Catholic. May God bless us one and all, and may He grant us wisdom and peace. Seonad

-- Seonad (Shona) (gonetroppo_31@yahoo.co.uk), July 28, 2003.

Hmmm, Just a little extra ditty to add to that last post; it says in Jeremiah 5:19 "When they ask why I did all these things, tell them, Jeremiah, that just as they turned away from me and served foreign gods in their own land, so they will serve stranger in a land that is not theirs." Food for thought... God Bless, Seonad

-- Seonad (Shona) (gonetroppo_31@yahoo.co.uk), July 28, 2003.

Good Morning Shona,

The Church is continually being charged with idolatry concerning statues. It is interesting this charge usually comes from Protestants, who apparently have never been inside a Christian bookstore! Little statuettes, pictures of Christ everywhere, and yet the Church is charged with idolatry.

The passages you mention regarding Idolatry are concerning the WORSHIP of the inanimate object made by human hands. Catholics do not worship statues. We look at the statue and ponder the mystery of Christ. We look at the statue of Mary and ponder the mystery of Christ. We look at statues of the Saints and again we ponder the work of Christ in their lives. When we gaze at the statue of Christ hanging on the cross we are mixed with hope, sorrow, joy and awe . . . not because we are amazed at the workmanship of the statue, but because we are amazed HIM!

Perhaps you should take a looksie at some different parishes in your area. My family and I drive 15 minutes further to a parish we love, as the one closest to our home doesn't fit our needs. It's well worth the extra time! (BTW, our church doors are open ALL the time . . . at least for now).

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 28, 2003.


Dear Shona,

It it a very good thing that you have such respect for the feelings and opinions of your family. Not everyone does. It is also a very good thing that you follow the truth when you find it, even if your family doesn't understand right now. Jesus said the truth will set us free (John 8:32), and that has certainly been my experience in His Holy Catholic Church.

Nearly all churches are locked when not in use. Sadly, the frequency of theft, vandalism, and desecration of the sacred has made this necessary. I also miss the opportunity to stop in for a visit when I have the chance. Sometimes a particular parish may have a small chapel that is open continuously, even when the main church is closed.

Idolatry does not consist of simply making statues, but rather the worship of anything or anyone other than the One True God. If you make a statue and worship IT, that is idolatry, regardless of whether the statue is of Baal or Buddha or Mary or even Jesus. Also, to worship the person represented by the statue, whether a real person like Mary or a fictitious person like Baal, is also idolatry - unless of course the statue of of Jesus. If the statue is of Jesus, Who is God, then we don't worship the statue but we do worship the Person represented. Catholics of course do not worship any statues of any kind, and we do not worship any person other than God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We do however use statues and other images to help us focus on - but not worship - the real people they represent. In focusing on the saints we find examples of true Christian living that can serve as examples and encouragement for us, and also find true friends who can offer their prayers on our behalf, to God in whose eternal presence they now exist.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 28, 2003.


Hi all,

Found this site and had to add my piece. I,too, have been challenged about Catholics worshipping statues. My answer to them: the statue only helps me focus on God as I say my prayers to HIM. To re-enforce my answer I would add that should I break the statue accidentally, I would simply wrap the pieces up & dispose of it into the nearest bin. I would not cry & beat my breast as though I have done a sacrilegious act against my God. The statue , therefore is not my God though I occasionaly kneel before it when praying.

Yours in Christ, May

-- Maisie Lim (sipex@pacific.net.sg), August 05, 2003.


Hi Gail and Paul, Thank you both for your insight, as it has helped me greatly in gaining clarity concerning Idolatry and Statuary. Gail, I appreciate the sentiment of travelling to go to church. I used to go to the Anglican Church with Mother when I was growing up; and we used to have to leave almost half an hour early to get there on time. Thankfully, since posting my last message, I contacted my local Priest, who as it happens, took over the Parish just after Easter; and he is able to concentrate now on my RCIA!!! I am soooooo thrilled. I look forward to the day I can say I officially belong to the Church, and can receive the Sacrements and participate in Mass, etc.

Please say a prayer for me regarding RCIA...hehehe...I'm not sure what it entails but I am sure ready to do what need to be done.

Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for us. Saint Bernadette, pray for us.

God bless us all and may God grant us wisdom and peace.

Seonad

-- Seonad (Shona) (gonetroppo_31@yahoo.co.uk), August 06, 2003.


Just some added info for those of you who may want to look up the "word" of God.

Baptism: Matthew 3:13-15 Matthew 28:19 Mark 1:9 John 1:32-33 Acts 2:38 Acts 8:12-17 Acts 16:33-34 Romans 6:3-8 1 Peter 3:21 Therefore we know that Baptism is of God and that Jesus stated its importance.

Cross Isaiah 42:8

I think that this passage puts it rather plainly!

Prayer Matthew 6:5-13

This is the most powerful scripture that I could find to sum up prayer. Jesus said "Pray secretly to the Father" "Do not babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think that their prayers are answered only by repeating their words again and again". I was Baptized Catholic, and am accepted as a member of a Catholic church. I was married to a Catholic women in this church. Yet I sill find alot of the beliefs to be tainted in some way. I remeber learning of the Catholic religion in high school, when it was begining did it not accept certain pagan beliefs so that it could get pagans to join? Are not the days of the week named after pagan gods? Was the practice of worshiping on Sunday not changed only to get these pagans into the church. The Bible said to remember the Sabath and to keep it Holy. How does the Catholic religion then condone worship on Sunday?

I would have licked to have found something, anything on the living souls in heaven, and being able to ask them to pray for us, but did not. The only thing that I found was in revolations, all were raised up after the thousand years. If you have some scripture that will support what you are saying, about asking the dead to pray for you, I would like to know which ones they are. As for now I will asume that once you have passed you cannot pray for those who are still living. Only those who are alive may pray and to God only. Jesus is the only one who was allowed to interveen with the sacrifice that he made. The atonment alows us to be sheilded from Gods wrath. Sinners be ware! If you have not found Christ, do so now!

Again, I am only looking for answers and hope not to be talen in the wrong way. I do not wish to offend, just enlighten.

In Jesus name, Amen.

Paul

-- paul (bigpapapaul@sbcglobal.net), August 07, 2003.


Dear Paul,

I have a few questions (and maybe a few facts) relevant to your questions ...

You quote scripture: "Do not babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think that their prayers are answered only by repeating their words again and again"

A: I ask ... what possible relevance to Catholicism does this passage have?? Catholics do not pray in this way, nor believe anything even remotely similar.

You state: "Yet I sill find alot of the beliefs to be tainted in some way"

A: That's the problem with Protestantism - every denomination finds the beliefs of every other denomination "tainted" - which is another way of saying that no-one really knows the truth. Compare this with the teaching of Christ's own Church which has been taught faithfully and unchanging for 2,000 years. How can you claim that you have the truth when thousands of other Protestant groups say you don't? Do you have more authority than the rest of them? The only Church Christ gave authority to is the one He founded - the Holy Catholic Church.

You state: "I remember learning of the Catholic religion in high school, when it was begining did it not accept certain pagan beliefs so that it could get pagans to join?"

A: Of course not! The Catholic Church received ALL of its beliefs directly from its founder, Jesus Christ. It still teaches those same truths today. All other Christian groups came into existence by rejecting part of the truth of original Christianity - hundreds of years later.

You ask: "Are not the days of the week named after pagan gods?"

A: Yes, they are. What does this have to do with Catholicism??

You ask: "Was the practice of worshiping on Sunday not changed only to get these pagans into the church".

A: How would that get pagans into church? What does sunday mean to a pagan?? The Christian day of worship was not "changed". The ORIGINAL Christian day of worship, chosen by the Apostles themselves, was Sunday, the day of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as recorded in Acts 20:7.

You say: :The Bible said to remember the Sabath and to keep it Holy. How does the Catholic religion then condone worship on Sunday?"

The passage you refer to is a directive to Jews, recorded in the Jewish scriptures. Jews still follow that directive today. Christians do not. Christians worship on the day chosen by the Apostles, the day of the Resurrection. Saturday has no special significance in Christianity.

You ask: "I would have liked to have found something, anything on the living souls in heaven, and being able to ask them to pray for us, but did not"

A: Well it would be nice perhaps to find such a historical fact in the Bible. But it is not necessary. The writings of early Church fathers, dating right back to the first century, clearly record the Christian practice of asking intercession of other Christians, both earthly ones and heavenly ones. The fact that you can't find A VERSE is a major problem for you as a Protestant; but it is not a problem for a member of Christ's own Church. Christ told the Church that whatsoever it bound on earth was bound in heaven. He gave the Church full authority to teach and discern in His name. He said that those who hear the Church hear Him. He said that the Church is the foundation of truth. This is all scripture! If you folow the Bible, you follow the Church, because that's what the Bible says to do! If you don't follow the Church, you don't follow the Bible.

You ask: "If you have some scripture that will support what you are saying, about asking the dead to pray for you, I would like to know which ones they are"

A: Insisting on finding all Christian beliefs in the Bible is an unbiblical, modern tradition of men. If you think that such a practice is biblical, please tell me where in the Bible I can find such an instruction. In any case, Catholics do not pray to "the dead", for the Bible says that the saints in heaven are alive! (John 11:26)

You sate: "As for now I will asume that once you have passed you cannot pray for those who are still living"

A: Where can I find that belief in the Bible?? Allow me to paraphrase this strange belief you propose ... "As long as you are an earthly sinner, you can pray; but once you enter heaven and see God face to face, you lose your ability to pray". Do I have that right? Sounds pretty unlikely to me!

You say: "Only those who are alive may pray and to God only"

A: Right! The living saints on earth and the living saints in heaven can pray. They pray to God, and one of the things they pray for is the needs of one another. It has been so in the Christian community since the beginning.

You say: "Jesus is the only one who was allowed to intervene with the sacrifice that he made"

A: The word "intervene" is not used in Christian theology. What you mean is only Jesus was able to MEDIATE our salvation. That is correct, and is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. On the other hand, every Christian, in heaven and on earth, is an INTERCESSOR, which simply means we pray for one another.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 07, 2003.


A little off subject, but I was wondering if anybody new of a good website describing each of the Christian denominations. I was born and raised Baptist, my husband Catholic; however, I'm not sure if that is the best denomination for my husband and I and was looking for some info on other denominations.

-- Rae (mosher@wwdb.org), August 14, 2003.

rae,

im sure one of us can gladly produce that information, if you would first tell us why you would come to a sight for catholics and ask us to provide information so that you can convert your husband from the one true church...

perhaps you did this in error though, or perhaps it was luck and God brought you here to learn more about your husbands faith so that you could come to accept him for who he is. why dont you take this opportunity to learn about catholicism from a decent source... catholics!!!

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), August 15, 2003.


Dear Rae,

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominations are groups which broke away from the True Church founded by Jesus Christ for all men. Denominations are manmade traditions which have rejected a portion of God's truth. Denominations have only existed for a few hundred years. God's Church, the Holy Catholic Church, has existed for 2,000 years; was founded by God Himself, not by men hundreds of years later; has no denominations, since denominations mean untruth; and teaches the fullness of Christian truth, just as Jesus said it would until the end of time. Take a look. You may be surprised by what you find.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 15, 2003.


WHEN WAS THE BAPTIST RELIGION STARTED IS THE TITLE. SO PEOPLE THINK YOU MIGHT BE TALKING ABOUT THE BAPTIST RELIGION. NOT THE CATHOLIC RELIGION. THAT'S HOW I WAS LEAD INTO THE SITE, BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO LEARN ABOUT WHAT THE BELIEFS OF THE BAPTIST RELIGION WERE AND ALSO WHEN IT BEGAN. ANOTHER THING, YOU ARE REALLY HARSH AND OFFENDED QUICKLY. JUST MY OPINION. I COME IN AND OUT OF THIS SITE TO LEARN FOR ALL QUEST. NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE, OR WHO YOU ARE, YOU CAN STILL LEARN FROM EACH OTHER. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

-- TINA (TINAABRUZ@AOL.COM), August 15, 2003.

Yes, Tina and Rae, the topic of this discussion thread is: "when was the Baptist religion started."

However, didn't you bother to read the second line on the "window"? It says:

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread ----- Moderator: Catholic_moderator@hotmail.com

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 15, 2003.


OH THANK YOU LORD FOR LEADING ME TO THIS SITE. I, AM, A CATHOLIC AND I HAVE RELOCATED DOWN SOUTH. I'M SURROUNDED BY BAPTIST'S. I HAVE BEEN STUNNED, SHOCKED, AND TOTALLY TAKEN ABACK BY SOME PEOPLE OF THE BAPTIST FAITH, IF YOU CAN EVEN CALL IT A FAITH. TO ME ANYONE WHO ADMONISHES OR DEFAMES THE LORD GOD I KNOW AND HAVE COME TO LOVE THROUGH MY UPBRINGING AS A CATHOLIC, IS GOD'S WORST ENEMY. I ACTUALLY WENT TO A BAPTIST CHURCH TO SEE WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT AND, THE PREACHER IN THAT CHURCH STOOD BEFORE ME AND DENOUNCED EVERY RELIGION OTHER THAN THE BAPTIST RELIGION AS FRAUDS.THAN STOOD BEFORE THE CONGREGATION AND SHARED A STORY ABOUT A MAN WHO WAS FROM UP NORTH AND WANTED TO PLACE A CALL TO GOD. IT WOULD COST HIM SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO MAKE THAT CALL. HE WAS THEN TOLD BY THE MERCHANT IF HE LIVED DOWN SOUTH THE CALL WOULD ONLY COST HIM 25 CENTS. I STOOD BEFORE THAT CONGREGATION AND SO HELP ME I TOLD HIM, THE PREACHER, OUT LOUD SO ALL COULD HEAR ME. IT DOESN'T COST ME NOT EVEN A PENNY TO CALL MY GOD. IT'S A FREE CALL WHERE I COME FROM. I THEN WALKED OUT OF THAT CHURCH. THIS IS WHAT THE BAPTIST CHURCH DOES. THIS IS HOW THEY REPRESENT OUR LORD, BY TELLING A FOOLISH STORY LIKE THAT TO IT'S PEOPLE. DON'T GET ME WRONG, THEY'RE ARE SOME REALLY NICE PEOPLE IN THOSE CHURCHES. THEY REALLY LOVE GOD. BUT, THEY ARE BEING MIS LEAD INTO BELIEVING THEIR CHURCH PREACHES THE TRUTH. NOT WHEN YOUR CUTTING OTHER PEOPLE DOWN. THEY EVEN WENT SO FAR AS TO SAY THAT, WHEN THE END COMES BEWARE OF THE FALSE GOD THAT STANDS BEFORE YOU. MOST LIKELY HE WILL BE A POPE. REMEMBER, THIS MAN THAT STANDS BEFORE HIS CONGREGATION IS ACTUALLY CONVINCING GOD'S PEOPLE THAT HE SPEAKS THE WORD OF TRUTH. THIS IS SO SCARY,THAT THEIR ARE ACTUALLY PREACHERS WHO HAVE A LOT OF POWER AND CAN CONVINCE INNOCENT PEOPLE THAT ANYONE OTHER THAN A BAPTIST IS EVIL. THANK THE GOOD LORD, I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED THAT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. I, AM, UNEQUIVOCALLY PROUD TO BE A CATHOLIC. GOD BLESS US ALL...... PAM MARRZI

-- pam marrzi (buttrflykisses71@aol.com), August 17, 2003.

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE I GO FROM HERE TO READ RESPONSES, NEWLY UPDATED. CAN SOMEONE INFORM ME AS TO WHERE I WOULD GO AFTER I HAVE WRITTEN AN ANSWER IN THIS SECTION?

-- pam marrzi (buttrflykisses71@aol.com), August 18, 2003.

yes, at the top of this page click on CATHOLIC, and it will take you to the full forum, then click on new answers and it will bring you to the threads with new responses. welcome to our forum.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), August 18, 2003.

Paul thanks for informing me as to where to go. I truly love this forum. It came just in time for me. It's a miracle of sorts. Thanks, Thanks, Thanks, God Bless all of you Pam

-- pam marrzi (buttrflykisses@aol.com), August 20, 2003.

Pam et al:

A little internet protocol. DON'T USE ALL CAPS.

It is hard to read.

Glad to see the thread is still going. We just moved to the south and have been wondering why all of the funny looks and bad vibes when we tell people we belong to a catholic church. I have been an on and off attendee through out my adult life, but I never recall Protesant belief as even coming up in the context of any mass or church event I ever attended. It just was something I never really heard or thought about.

Until a little over a year ago, on the 2002 Mother's Day a Priest in the Chicago area preached at Mass that we should point our fingers in the faces of protesants and tell them they are dishonoring all mothers by dismissing Mary's role in the life of Christ. I was really offended and angry, did not attend church for over a year. It is just not something I feel deeply about, the Mary thing that is. I felt that it was preaching intolerance. To me it is really all about Jesus and his message.

I am a little shocked at the depth to which this bitterness and animosity runs in supposed Christian communities. Pam your story about the Baptist church is unbelievably shocking, if true.

My read of the Gospels drives me to be primarily focused on acceptance and forgivness as the central actions to honoring Jesus' message for us. I try my best, certainly not perfect.

The more I learn, the more I conclude that organized religion offers less and less for an individual who wants to live the message of Jesus. That is if these religions become mechansims for promoting unacceptance of those who don't act exactly as us.

I believe Jesus invites all of us into his house, the formalities are secondary, what really matters to me is living a life without sin and finding forgiveness for others. My relationship with God does not depend on a building, a priest, a pope, preacher, or when someone, adult or baby, gets baptized.

BTW Paul - Back in July when I was on this site last you asked me,

"Unfortunately, there are no Christian truths, "big" or "little", that all Protestants agree about. The fact of personal interpretation is such a serious violation of God's will that disunity is the inevitable result on every doctrinal issue it is applied to. Which of the following do you classify as "nits"? ... The sacraments; the priesthood; the authority of the Pope; the means of receiving salvation; the Trinity; the divinity of Christ; the identity of the Church founded by Christ for all men; the intercession of the saints; Purgatory; the necessity of Baptism ... just to name a few of the widely contested beliefs. "

I am not a theology expert and I may have this screwed up as you seem to have more of a direct line to God' will, but all that stuff you list I don't see as a important to living the life that Jesus called on us to lead. A lot of what you and the others are arguing about is of human construct and I don't think God cares that much. To me the Church continues a tradition, albeit modified, from a time 2000 years ago when symbolism was a predominant manner of communication. Certaintly the written word was not in widespread use.

Organized religion can and does do a lot of good in peoples lives. It also has and continues to promote a lot of bad. We may be at a juncture in human development where religious institutions and mechanisms maybe bifurcating into some new forms and roles in peoples lives. I am wondering if the current "fundamentalism" trend is the last gasping breath of a set of 1500 - 2000 year old traditions that our no longer useful to human affairs in thier old forms.

Jeff

-- Jeff Binder (jlbinder@tds.net), September 15, 2003.


Jmj
Hello, Jeff.

You wrote: "[O]n the 2002 Mother's Day, a Priest in the Chicago area preached at Mass that we should ... tell [Protestants] they are dishonoring all mothers by dismissing Mary's role in the life of Christ. I was really offended and angry, did not attend church for over a year. ... [W]hat really matters to me is living a life without sin and finding forgiveness for others."

When you go to Confession this Saturday (to "find forgiveness" for yourself), don't forget to mention your roughly 60 mortal sins of missing Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.


[Paul, you may have missed Jeff's new message, above, in which he speaks to you about your July reply to him. He is badly in need of our prayers.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 16, 2003.


all that stuff you list I don't see as a important to living the life that Jesus called on us to lead.

how can refusing to recognize the direct teaching of GOD be not important to living the life that Jesus called us to lead. i think your problem with organized religion is that it calls for you to change your will to match God's, and that you are unwilling to do this.

you even talk about how we shouldnt be confrontational in any way!!! are we not commanded to sing out God's truth regardless of confrontation? doesnt Jesus even tell us that the world will hate us because we have his truth. if your confrontation with a thousand people would save just one soul you would be blessed indeed. but YOUR desire says 'no Lord, i am uncomfortable with speaking your truth.' and so God lets you go, and doesnt pester you. your will is bent to your own needs

remember, friend, religion is about a changing man to the will of God, not changing gods until you find a fit for you. i suggest you search your heart and see if you are really doing God's will, or if you are serving your own idea of that divine command.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 16, 2003.


Hi Jeff and Greetings All, especially our newcomer, Pam. (Great name, BTW, that's my first name!)

Hey Jeff, truth does matter -- It matters VERY MUCH. We cannot afford, in this "day of enlightment" to take an ambivalent stand on truth. We live in a society that teaches relativism as a way of life, and it has lead to countless stories of tragedy, mayhem, destruction of the family, etc. Any why? Because people think they can arrive at their own sense of truth and live by the dictates of their own will. Grave error. In essence, they are their own god. Just as Eve thought she could "be like God knowing truth from error" so does man today swallow the same old poison apple.

I am thrilled this priest you mentioned stood up for the mother of our Lord. We serve a God who loves family. And throwing our Lady OUT, as most Protestants do, must grieve Him to the core!! We must LOVE our neighbor, and LOVE our Protestant bros and sisses, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF TRUTH!! (Yes, I am shouting!)

Gotta run,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 16, 2003.


Oh Pam, I forgot to reply to your post. WOW, I did not realize the South was so anti-Catholic, but of course it would be since it is a hotbed of fundamentalism. Good luck to you sister. Find you some good Catholic brothers and sisters to hang with. "Stick tight, and don't let the Baptists bite." (Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 16, 2003.


You know, I came in this room for info about the Baptist religion and so far have found nothing more than a bunch of Catholics putting down other religions. John and Paul, I wonder what your role in the Catholic church is? If someone was to stumble on this room and read each thread, as I have, they could see how you both(as well as Gail) contradict yourselves. The Catholic church has been in the for front of many problems that do not come from God. The sexual abuse of young boys by Priests, the drunk driving priest that hit, killed, and then left the scene of the accident because he thaught that he had hit a dog. The acceptance of a gay preist into a top role of the church. What of these things can you say are of God? He openly condems all of these things. You wonder why the Catholic church has people breaking off and people doubting the true meaning of your religion. We are all seeking the truth. When the people come to this site, only to be belittled, that impression can never be changed. I am very disapointed to find a misleading website like this. I feel as if I was "entrapped". I would normally not voice my opinion this strongly but felt compelled to speak up. Not one of us is any greater than the next. Jesus loves us all. If this world was without sin than there would not have been a need for the great sacrifice. Maybe in the future you will not title your site so misleading. Remember that God sees all, knows all.

May God find the mercy that we all need and forgive each of us our sins of this evil world. In Jesus name I pray, Amen.

Paul

-- Paul (bigpapapaul@sbcglobal.net), September 27, 2003.


Hi Paul,

This is a Catholic site wherein someone asked a question about the Baptist faith hoping that someone here would know the answer. I floated through this thread to see what provoked your rebuke, but can really find nothing other than a few discussions with some anti- Catholic bigots that came on the thread looking for a fight. You see, there are certain "buzz-words" an anti-Catholic bigot will use; Cliches, if you will, that spark the perhaps not-so-gentle rebuttals from the regulars here.

If you want to learn about the Baptist faith, I suggest you go to one of their websites. Otherwise, you are welcome to stick around here for awhile. We're really not so bad once you get to know us. We have quite a few non-Catholics that are semi-regulars here on this forum and we all get along quite nicely.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 27, 2003.


Jmj

Big Papa Paul,
Some comments you made are unjustifiable -- even outrageous. Some things you wrote are far more offensive than anything you saw a Catholic write earlier in the thread. You need to get some facts before you post a message.

You wrote: "The Catholic church has been in the for front [sic] of many problems that do not come from God. The sexual abuse of young boys by Priests, the drunk driving priest that hit, killed, and then left the scene of the accident because he thaught that he had hit a dog. The acceptance of a gay preist into a top role of the church. What of these things can you say are of God?"

Here are your errors:
1. The name is "Catholic Church" (with a capital "C").
2. The Catholic Church has over 1,000,000,000 (one billion) people, some in every nation on the planet. You cannot say that the "Church" is at the "forefront of many problems." Don't generalize. Don't try to condemn the only Church that Jesus founded. Instead, say the truth: that some churchmen have done wrong things (just as some Baptists have done wrong things).
3. The "scandal" has not really been about "the sexual abuse of young boys by priests." Rather, it has almost completely been about homosexual acts between priests and adolescents. Thus, not "pedophilia" (which would be much worse), but "ephebophilia."
4. There was no "drunk driving priest hit, killed, and then left the scene of the accident." Instead, a bishop in the West -- who was NOT charged with drunkenness (a typical grape-juice-drinking Fundy's slur of Catholics) -- did drive away after he thought he had hit a dog or cat or that someone had thrown a rock at him. Any of us could easily have done the same. Yet you list this as some kind of big problem in the Catholic Church? Put your thinking cap on, please!
5. What/who in the world are you talking about when you say, "acceptance of a gay priest into a top role of the church"? Are you talking about some bishop or other? If so, did it ever occur to you that the person hid his psychosexual disorder -- so it is wrong for you to speak of his "acceptance"?

I think that you owe us an apology, whether you decide to stay here or not, Big Papa Paul.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 28, 2003.


john, mostly right...

when you said there are more than a billion catholics in the world, allow us to put that into better perspective, with the latest poll putting the Catholic Church at 1.2 billion and RISING. i guess the only people leaving the church to find truth are the baptists coming back.

next,

5. What/who in the world are you talking about when you say, "acceptance of a gay priest into a top role of the church"? Are you talking about some bishop or other? If so, did it ever occur to you that the person hid his psychosexual disorder -- so it is wrong for you to speak of his "acceptance"?

the boy is quite astute in stating that an openly gay 'priest' was made into a bishop. 100 % right about that fact, and it was completely known at the time that he was gay too. heres the kicker though: right facts, WRONG CHURCH. we're CATHOLICS not EPISCOPALEANS you twit. john is right, i think an appology really is in order if you wish to remain here.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 28, 2003.


Thanks so much, paul, for those excellent clarifications! How could anyone have thought that the badly confused Episcopalian clergyman was a Catholic? It never even occurred to me that BPP could have made such a big mistake.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 29, 2003.

Here is one definition of tolerance that I found in the American Heritage Dictionary.

tol·er·ance a noun The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

I think this is probably the current "popular" use of the word. (Of course it is used in other forms, but I will leave that out for now.) So tolerance is what I am thinking about, it is mentioned often in our multi-cultual environment, and I will admit for me it is what I like to think was the main message from Jesus. I feel that I am a highly tolerant person and in fact people I associate and work with often comment on the high degree of tolerance for others views and opinions that I exhibit.

But what does tolerance have to do with the "Christian Truths" that are being discussed on this message board? Well this made me think about the etymology of the words tolernance and tolerant, and I found this on the site www.etymonline.com:

tolerance - 1412, "endurance, fortitude," from L. tolerantia "endurance," from tolerans, prp. of tolerare "to bear, endure, tolerate." Of authorities, in the sense of "permissive," first recorded 1539; of individuals, with the sense of "free from bigotry or severity," 1765. Meaning "allowable amount of variation" dates from 1868; and physiological sense of "ability to take large doses" first recorded 1875. Tolerant is recorded from 1784. Tolerate is from 1531. toleration - 1517, "permission granted by authority, license," from M.Fr. tolération, from L. tolerationem (nom. toleratio), from tolerare "tolerate." Meaning "forbearance, sufferance" is from 1582. Religious sense is from Act of Toleration, statute granting freedom of religious worship (with conditions) to dissenting Protestants in England, 1689.

It appears that tolerance first enterted English usage in the 15th century and its use was really related to a Latin meaning referring to endurance to something like pain. It wasn't until the 17-18th century timeframe when tolerance began to take on more modern meanings. For example, those Protesants are misguided, but we should tolerate, under cetain conditions their beliefs. But this was a legally created defintion and it had nothing to do with Christianity as such from the time of Jesus.

So now I am starting to understand what you people are telling me. religious belief does not really admit tolerance. Tolerance implies accepting ambiguity with regard to what is true and if you allow this to happen, oh no, hoisting up the one absolute truth is impossible. The Holy Trinity crumbles under the weight of relativism! The same problems with tolerance and ambiguity certainly vexes the Islamic co-habitators of the planet Earth.

Gail (stop shouting by the way), you said that relativism has lead to all kinds of societal ills, I don't disagree. If everything is negotiable, hedonistic anarchy would prevail. But certaintly you can not ignore the death and destruction caused by the pitting of alternate views of absolute truth expressed through organized religion.

Well there certainly is some comfort in picking up a ready made monotheistic absolute truth. Tolerating ambiguity is not as easy you might think, I have certaintly thought about these questions from time to time during my life. However, I am not quite ready to wager my Paschal buck yet.

-- Jeff Binder (jlbinder@tds.net), November 12, 2003.


The way this sight is going, it doesn't look like your doing good in bringing people into catholism. People that are coming in and objecting to what you are saying, are not coming back in agreement. If there is one person who did, come forth. Other than that, everyone in here sound like they've got offended. You know what they say about people who get offended, YOUR IN THE FLESH. Use your sight wisely. How has your sight developed in the the past year?

God Bless

-- MIMI (NOTINTERESTEDINU@CHGO.COM), August 27, 2004.


If you read the general information about this site you will find that its purpose is to provide a forum for discussion, not to "bring people into Catholicism". It's no great surprise that people who have been steeped in untruth or partial truth for many years do not always accept the fullness of truth when it is presented to them. It is also no surprise that when the inaccuracies of their denominational traditions are revealed and there is nothing left for them to say, they may leave and not come back. However, the Holy Spirit works in varied ways, and if their hearts and minds are truly open to His guidance, the seed that was planted during their brief visits here may someday take root and spring up into a thirst for more than their denominational religion can ever provide. Then God will bring them home. God doesn't ask us to provide results, only truth. He does the rest.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 27, 2004.

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