Please read this : LUSENET : Beyond the Sidewalks : One Thread

For those of you who think you can live your quiet lives avoiding politics hiding your heads in the sand, for the sake of your children or children you care about, please, please read this, and let us talk about it, and spread it everywhere:

They thought they were free

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2002


EM, I just wanted to let you know that I have seen your post, and I'm reading at the link. I will have things to say, but probably NOT this evening. Just don't want you to think you're being ignored. :-)

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2002

E.M...I feel so at a loss for words whenever I read something like this. I have to go back and reread it several times...that's for sure!! I've never been a good "debater" and I could NEVER argue with anyone and it's sooo frustrating, especially when I think I have so much to say :-)!! But I try to do what I can (politically) in my own little section of this country and I sure hope it helps...but who knows!!?? I think we all know that something is going on, but what else can we do except try to fix what's happening in our own "back yards" (state governments). Any other suggestions???

I will say that I soooo admire your passion and "stick-to-it-tiveness" (is that a word??) whenever it comes to political subjects. And I sure agree 100% with you!!! Now go ahead and tell me that I'm hiding my head in the sand...'cause I agree with you...I am :-)!!!!

-- Anonymous, December 04, 2002

I should have tried posting last night. It seemed clearer what I wanted to say, but I was tired. I'll give it a shot though.

And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty. "Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist." Well, there you have it -- the uncertainty. I'm not certain what's going on -- and where it is leading. HOW do you be certain? And how do you deal with the feelings of helplessness?

And even if I were certain, I haven't a CLUE what I could do to change things. Yes, of course, keep doing whatever we can, but does it, is it, making any difference?

Pass it on? My credibility is pretty well shot. I bought into the Y2K Crisis heavily (did I ever tell you all that?). No one believed me then (or not very much) -- and then I was spectacularly proven wrong. Who would believe anything I have to say now? I don't give a rip if people think I nuts, but I have to consider that MY believing in something is likely to make others DISbelieve it (whatever "it" might be). >:-(

This is a pretty negative post. I DO think we're on thin ice, but I can't forsee where it will lead nor what to do about it. Also, EM, what about the idea of NOT giving energy to things you don't want to happen? I've never known how to reconcile that with also not hiding your head in the sand. Arrgh. I hope this all made sense, even if I have no answers.

-- Anonymous, December 04, 2002

America has already had its day. We almost completely wiped out the Indian population so we could move in and call ourselves free. Course then there was slavery when we called ourselves a free country but failed to notice "that group" that was bought and payed for.

However if you are afraid of it happening in this day and age I doubt it. To brainwash America in this age of communication would be some trick! As long as freedom of speech is alive and well we can rest easy a Nazi type society will not happen.

Yhis weekend the Libertarian and Green partys are having a parade down main street with a coffin ( THE DEATH OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS!!!!). Can you imagine those two groups doing anything together! Cracks me up. Sweet freedom of speech!!!.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, December 04, 2002

I haven't been doing alot of posting here lately but I visit regularly.

Wilhelm Reich wrote a book called "The mass psychology of facism". It was an interesting read.

Find someone to demonize. Demonize them while stirring up fear. Spread rumors and lies and let the people gofferit. Legalized mob rule resulting in tyrany condoned by the masses---for their own safety and security of course.

The first thing to come to mind is people need to think for themselves but then I wonder, in my darker moments, if thats a good thing either.

Unless we're all reading from the same page in the book of life this kinda crap is almost inevitable.

There was a thread on FSR a while back. There was a bunch of hand wringing, the sky is falling stuff, and what to do, what to do kindsa questions. Of course everyone had a different take on things, ranging from grab your shooting irons and head for the hills, shoot it out in the city streets till the blood runs ankle deep(joel of course), to its hopeless without a bloody revolution or keep your head down and lay low.

"They" are very good at demonizing one group or another, and why not. It keeps us divided, reading from different idealogical play books while "they" yank our strings and we dance to the tune "they" play for us. It seems like neither side of the idealogical fence is interested in really listening to the guy on the other side, to see if they don't actually have some legit concerns and points. I like to think the "left" is less likely to be so doctrinairre but that aint so, any more than the right is actually more concerned about the country that their idealogical purity. Intellectual honesty seems to be an oxymoron when it comes to idealogical purity---of any sort.

We heard from Bob Dole "Where's your outrage?" and "Take our country back!" First, I don't think Bob really wants to know where my outrage is and I really doubt if he wants us to take our country back.

If we took our country back Bob wouldn't have corporate funds to finance his campaign and then he'd be just another viagra salesman.

If we took our country back the AMA, Pharmaceutical companies and the insurance industry might have to actually work within a true "free market" capitalist system. No more protected markets and suppression of competition.

If we took our country back we'd be driving cars and heating homes with wind, solar, hydrogen, biomass, ethanol etc and we certainly wouldn't be carrying water for the oil companies and paying for military action to insure they retain their hold on our collective wallets.

If we want to insure the future "security" of our rights, to return to a semblance of governmental accountability, to give voice to the common citizen we must DEMAND substantial campaign finance reform and work toward a constitutional ammendment that would #1, limit political speech of ANY kind to REAL PEOPLE, not corporations. #2, Jail those who willfully and knowingly misrepresent or even distort the "record" of their political opponents. Theres alot more but you get the gist of where I'm going with this.

I yield the soapbox.

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2002

Joy...I think I'm "relatively" sure that something is going on! After all, this is the government...with Bush in charge!! Need I say more :-)?? I don't have a clue as to what to do either. And like you said, how can we be certain that what we ARE doing is making any difference!! We have two customers that have their mechanical work done here at our garage. One is now a state representative for our county and the other was a senator in Washington for several years. We talk to them alot about what"s going on in our government, and even though they're of different political parties, they both agree that change always starts at the local level. If you get enough people together...change WILL happen!!

Like Kirk said...America already had its day. I truely think change is inevitable for the U.S. government. Let's just hope that it's a "good" change!!! Okay...going back to stick my head in the sand (snow) again :-)!

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2002

BTW. Joy. I don't think you "bought" into Y2K any more heavily than Harry and I did!! Our families from out of state and most of our friends here thought we were nuts. And these friends were people who had just gone through the Ice Storm of '98 and had no power for two weeks and longer!! You'd think they would have learned something :-)!! But I think that it was because so many of us "nutcases" raised a ruckus about it, was the reason that that Y2K never "happened". Wasn't it because of demonstrations (for lack of a better word) etc. that the government decided to appointment committees to fix any potential Y2K glitches?? If we ALL had sat back and said nothing, I think there could have been a major problem!! Maybe us little people CAN make a difference!

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2002

Yes, 'little people' can make a difference. Remember what Margaret Mead said?

"Never doubt that a small group of committed individuals can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever does."

This goes for the those committed to evil as well.

The point to me is, it's clear to me the US is in for a big fall, which it richly deserves, but I will not go out with regret. I will do my best to leave this earth school knowing that I did my best to help prevent or at least tried to lessen the suffering as best I can, of the people who are victimized daily in my name throughout the world. If I sit around in my comfortable home feeling powerless to have any effect, I will be no different than those Germans who did the same, and to me, that is indefensible.

I am perfectly aware that now with the Homeland Security Act in effect, that merely speaking out against the US government is legal reason enough to be taken away to an unknown location, with no requirement for anyone to be notified, including one's family, with no lawyer, with no monitoring by anyone whatsoever, for any amount of time deemed necessary by Ashcroft/BushCo. In other words, like they have done in South and Central America for decades, it is now perfectly reasonable and legally allowed, for United States citizens who do/say things critical of government policy to become a desaparecida, or 'disapperared one.' Internment camps are already set up, many of which were used for the Japanese, and several more being worked on as we speak. I fully realize the danger, but I don't care anymore. My kids are now old enough to take care of themselves if needed, and there are more important things than survival anyway. If I live to a hundred or only till next week, I will leave my children with an example of courage and the strength of love and peace.

I thank from the bottom of my heart those of you who have responded to this thread; I actually was about to give up here. I have a fire in my belly and am having trouble holding myself back when I should, knowing too much information at once freaks people enough to want to hide under that pillow again. I tend to run out of patience (not a good thing) for those who refuse to see, who refuse to even take a look (!), for those who think 'it can't happen here.'

Kirk, you know I love ya, but if you think we have a free press here, spend a few hours reading the foreign press. Find out for yourself what other countries think of US policy, how they view what this country stands for, how they perceive the American (non)voting public. Find out for yourself the endless list of attrocities committed over the decades in our name; the millions we have murdered, the "regime changes" we have planned and accomplished (including the required assassinations).

If you think we have a free press, talk to someone (preferably a Jew who is not a Zionist, who would be the most unbiased) who has worked/lived among the Palestinians. Find out about their daily suffering, because you get barely a hint of it in the American press, which would have us believe the suffering is mostly their own fault, when the truth is the Israelis are just as barbaric as the Palestinians, and their barbarism is financed by your tax dollars. Subtly, we are programmed to fear/hate the Muslim people by what news we receive and what we do not.

Find out about the Bush family's connections to this war they want so badly, how the family is as we speak making millions through the Carlyle group (for one) on their vast investments in the war machine. Find out how much blood is on the Bush family's hands, going back to Prescott at least.

Find out how Halliburton, Cheney's company, is tied up in more ways than I can count, with everything from manufacture of many of the voting machines used in the Florida election which conveniently have no paper trail (and they are trying to employ in the rest of the country), to myriad connections to the unlimited profits at any cost in the mideast.

go where the oil is

pipelines of oil

Joy, I like your question about tuning into energy frequencies, since I too am a believer in such things. My response is that although I believe I can avert personal danger by always attempting to be in those positive frequencies, so that I really don't give much energy to personal safety, I also believe that to change the world we do need a certain amount of critical mass. Doing nothing along with everyone else will create nothing; it is akin to handing over all the power to those who are busy creating behind our backs.

About the FSR thread, and many folks who hold those kinds of beliefs: the whole gun thing always strikes me as ludicrous. Do these people actually think that if/when the government comes to get 'em, they are going to hold off the armed services with their handguns and hunting rifles??? Too funny....

What can we do? Learn as much as you can. Talk to people as you learn things, but don't overload em. (hopefully I have not done this here, I have only touched the surface!) Discuss!! Write letters to everyone you know, to do your bit to enlighten the blind masses. The internet is indeed a wonderful tool; it holds a key to our salvation, although the Homeland Security Act (allowed to happen because of Democratic acquiescence, and probably fear of being murdered), now allows the government to track everything we do everywhere, including the internet, telephone calls, doctors visits, credit card and bank purchases, basically everything). But because of its instant technolology, lots of info can get out fast, before it has a chance to get messed with, and you have a world of information at your disposal.

March!! Participate/plan/organize marches and demonstrations in your area. Try to get to the one in Washington in January (18th I think). It has to be huge beyond measure! Lotus is already signed up to take a bus caravan from the Twin Cities. MN is filling up at least 6 busses so far. She doesnt want to go with friends cuz she says it's easier to make new friends this way. I'm very proud of her, she's way braver than I was at 19. If you cannot go (I don't know if I'm going yet or not), join one closer to you. There are similar marches planned all over the country.

Write letters to your local papers, and keep trying to fight the corporate control of our government. Make noise!

Join a peace organization; they'll give you ideas of how you can help in whatever capacity you are able/willing. There is always something that needs doing.

May the Great Spirit bless us all.....

Love ya,

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2002

Marcia, I don't disagree that SOMETHING is going on -- I just don't know WHAT. That we are being manipulated and distracted -- yes. But I don't have anything more than a very vague, large picture -- I can't see what to do or where!

And, yes, I do think maybe/probably people preparing for Y2K had some effect on it being a "non-event". But that is NOT the general perception of the thing. The public at large seems to think that it was a big to-do about NOTHING. The average person doesn't even give credit to the enormous amount of work done to make sure that "nothing" did happen. I think a lot of people were apprehensive -- witness the huge scale back in New Year's Eve plans -- but afterwards, the fact that they "bought" it even a little bit makes them embarassed and they refuse to get "taken" again. Then there is all this going "on alert" because there might be another attack (current intelligence reports say). I don't know how many of those are genuine or if they're part of some strategy to keep us tensed up and therefore more supportive of war and other huge expenditures of money and effort (the so-far-fruitless search for Bin Laden). Anyway, my point is that the non-event of Y2K crises has made people far less likely to pay attention to anything they can label "crackpot theory".

I've been in agreement with John's post for years. Yet I haven't even "gone solar". My one action was my little hybrid car -- gas saving but not gas free!

This site is acting iffy. I think I'll post this and maybe come back later with other stuff to say . . .

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2002

Em, I just skimmed the post, as I am making a presentation to, and at the invitation of, the Pacific Green Party, in 28 minutes, and I have to grab a bite before heading for town.

The presentation is to try to float a Resolution, which I'm giving the catch title, "RESOLUTION IN SUPPORT OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES FOR ALL RESIDENTS OF GRANTS PASS, OREGON"

I recently learned that 17 (as of day before yesterday, when my former home of Sebastopol, CA passed one unanimously) have passed similar Resolutions, which are designed to send a message to the Bush/Trashcroft nazis.

But I am on a tangent. The reason I decided to offer this early note, before coming home later and reading all y'all's posts, and the rest of yours, EM, is to share the quote I sent out with my letter asking for support for this Resolution:

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” - Margaret Mead



-- Anonymous, December 05, 2002

Hey there Joe.......glad to see we're on the same wavelength!!


-- Anonymous, December 05, 2002

EM: I completely agree with your comments about the gun toters. I'm quite certain the government could take out Joels militia without breaking a sweat and be home for supper and thats half the state of Virginia---lol.

I may be wrong about the effectiveness of demonstrations but frankly I wouldn't hold my breath. To expect honorable action from a dishonorable, obviously corrupt, government who've got us properly divided just ain't gonna happen IMO.

I briefly outlined my preferred approach above. You may ask why I think that way. I think that because the campaign finance issue has real political legs. MANY people see and understand the importance of the issue and to my way of thinking its about the ONLY way the people will regain their voice. Jerry Brown was giving Clinton a run for his money---literally---in the 91 primaries and JB was big on campaign finance reform. It was a centerpiece of his platform. The same is true for John McCain in 99 vs shrub. McCain was attracting voters from both sides of the "isle". He lost because he was outspent. Hell, I might have voted for him myself despite my refusal to vote republican ever, just on that one issue alone.

I see it as a bridge across the great divide that artificially divides conservatives and liberals and that---more than anything--- is whats needed.

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2002

The only way to be sure that something is happening is to do nothing and let it happen, but by then it's too late. If we act and avert the crisis then we never have the proof that the crisis was going to happen. It's enough to tie your brain in knots.

I agree that we need campaign reform. I just found out something that is pretty much the last straw for me. Someone at the last minute stuck a provision in the bill that created the office of Homeland Security that will protect Eli Lilly from lawsuits stemming from their product thimerasol causing autism after childhood vaccines. WHAT THE F*CK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH HOMELAND SECURITY!!!!! Just take a headcount of how many Shrub staffers are former Lilly employees. Eli Lilly is headquartered her in Indianapolis and you know how much local press coverage there's been on this story: ZERO. The real name of this city should be Lillyapolis. Here's a link to the story in the Washington Post. Lilly and Homeland Security

-- Anonymous, December 06, 2002

The Bush family has been "involved" in pharmaceuticals for decades -- and I'm not making reference to the recreational use by some of the family members. I knew this, but couldn't remember if it was Lilly or some other company. Well, read this. It is (was?) Lilly, and Pfizer, and a bunch of others.

These are known facts. When the bit about the rider to the Homeland Security hit the media (last week maybe?), I saw NO mention of the decades-long ties to the pharmaceutical industry by the Bush family. Even in articles bemoaning the addition of this rider! What's up with THAT?

I am against riders to bills, period. I think they should be illegal, unless they can be shown to have direct involvement in the main thrust of the bill. But no, there's always some sweetheart deal buried in the back pages. And I am firmly convinced that these bills are purposely made HUGE so that there is no way that they can be read before the vote comes up! GRRRRRRR!!!!!

John, campaign finance reform MAY well be a pivotal piece. I just hope it's not too late!

-- Anonymous, December 06, 2002

Thank you for that link, Joy; I hadn't seen that one yet,and have passed it on.

It is clear that Americans get their news only after its gone through the corporate/government filter, is it not?

Of course the other major rider on the bill was the one allowing the US government to do business with corporations who have moved their headquarters to island nations in the Carribean, etc., for the sole purpose of avoiding billions of dollars in income taxes. This is perfectly allright with the BushCo of course. We have millions of children in poverty in this country and Tyco, et al can continue their outrageous deal-making from the safety of their tropical island, getting taxpayer money to help them make even larger profits, and pay nothing back to the treasury to the privilege.

Paul was the one behind getting this indefensible practice stopped, and he would never have stood for its being slipped in this way. He would have thrown a noisy, public fit. Guess someone took care of that problem.

-- Anonymous, December 06, 2002

If you haven't already seen this it might be of interest. The unauthorized biography of George HW Bush at

Thats interesting Sherri. I wondered how he came up with Dan Quayle for VP. It musta been the Indiana connection.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2002

Until about a year ago the Quayle family owned the largest chain of newspapers in Indiana. Danny-boy had to divest when he ran for VP, but the rest of the family looked out for his interests. :)

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2002

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