light vs. light [Genesis]greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
Hey All -
I have a question. This is not a trick question, I would really like your input. This isn't really a MAJOR issue, just a wonder of mine:
Ge 1:3-5 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Ge 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Okay, maybe I am crazy, but there is light created in the first day called Day, then there are lights created in the fourth day???
What do you get out of this? Just a pointless question I guess, but if you have any input - send it.
-- Tim (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 18, 2002
-- . (.@...), November 18, 2002.
I don't really know if I can speak for the Catholic Church. But, having been a life-long faithful Catholic, I forward an educated guess.
The first ''Let there be light'' in time is the ''Big Bang''. --A latest idea of the beginning of time and universe. I think it may come close to truth, though it isn't a revealed truth. Do scientists in their adventures ever approach a truth?
Light explodes in a primeval Bang. This is Creation. All which follows is Genesis, or ''written revelation.'' It has to start somewhere. Yes, and the Lord tells man beginning with Genesis 1, :3-:5 how it was He made the heavens and the earth.
You and I can calculate what millions of eons between a primeval origin and God's biblical Eden.
miscalculate. All that matters is faith. Faith in Our Father; giving us an analogical or metaphorical trip into creation history. Not on account a wish to mislead. Only because early humans couldn't understand a scientific exposition. Some modern men can't either. He spoke in the scripture with spiritual power. To our lowest common denominator; people like ME.
-- eugene c. chavez (email@example.com), November 19, 2002.
I suppose you noticed a gap. OR we could miscalculate.
To continue lamely-- If God called the light Day, the darkness Night; pay attention.
God is dividing light from darkness. In New Testament scripture Light means Christ. Darkness is night, when no man can work. The world without Christ.
But this is far away; before a New Testament. Why does God divide the two? Darkness is denial. Man needs light, to live as a man. I think perhaps Our Father was foretelling the coming of Jesus in this little hidden phrase of Genesis.
Mind you-- It could be a reach. I'm conceiving this randomly, with no contemplation beforehand. I might fall flat on my face.
Anyway-- laboring over these odd passages in Genesis, and other strange ones in Revelations as well-- could lead you almost ANYWHERE. The truth is known only to God.
-- eugene c. chavez (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 19, 2002.
Bro Tim, good question. Note the diff between lights and light. Light can certainly exist before it is gathered into spherical balls of gas. It would seem that there was a temporary light source other than the sun giving light to the earth. It could have been that this temporary light source later was made into the sun as well as other stars.
It would have been a problem if light was created on day 4 and lights were created on day 1. Day 1 (light) is speaking of the substance, day 4 (lights) is speaking of objects of that substance. You need the substance before you can make the objects of that substance. Just like if you want to make a clay bowl, you need the clay before you make the bowl. It would seem absurd that the bowl is produced before the clay.
-- Oliver Fischer (email@example.com), November 19, 2002.
Thanks Eugene and Oliver for your input.
I was just wondering. Granted - this is not a necessary understanding for salvation, but it just shows that the Bible is the Word of God and is Spiritually discerned. Even though we may not have all of the answers.
My father-in-law gave me this:
Let there be light - was only LIGHT lol. The two great lights later made are the sun and moon, the other lights are the stars (for signs and seasons). There is light 4 days before there is a sun. The SON came to earth after it's 4th day. (4000 years) which is a curious thing, especially since the sun is a type of the SON.
Looking at: Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Notice Jesus in Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
I wonder [just my thoughts] if the Sun [greater light] represents Christ while he was on earth, and the Moon[lesser light] represents the Holy Spirit that was sent when Christ went to Heaven. Maybe the stars represent the angles. [Have you ever heard of this?]
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Just an idea...
-- Tim (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 19, 2002.
Well, at the risk of inflaming Catholic/Protestant passions yet again (tee hee!), I remember the late Fulton Sheen comparing the passage of the sun, from sunrise to sunset, to the "flaming monstrance" (i.e., the consecrated Host, which we believe is Christ). So you are not that far off in saying that the sun = Christ. :-)
-- Christine L. (email@example.com), November 19, 2002.
Genesis is just an explanation to show creation by God. With regard to the lights, day 4, the creation of the sun and moon should be before day 3. The first light was the light of God. The second light was the light of the universe. the third lights are the sun and moon. Each day in creation could even be over a billion years!. Remember the stars and planets in other galaxies were here before earth. We might be one of God's last creations. Only after ch. 11 in Genesis can we be sure about geneology and creation. The choosing of Abraham by Yahweh marks the beginning of salvation history. genesis ch 11-50 marks the geneology of Joseph, the son of Jacob. So most likely, it was composed by Joseph or his descendants. Exodus-Deutoronomy is about the story of Moses and his brother Aaron, which shows they and their descendants the priests were the writers of those books. As for Genesis ch 1-10 is a composition that took hundreds of years. Genesis uses Yahweh when even Abraham knew God as El Shaddai. Gen 14:17-20.It was Moses who introduced the name Yahweh ( as a third person) into Hebrew.Exodus 3:14 - Ehiyeh (first person- God talking). From hawa, to exist, to be, or to become. You can see then, that the Jewish priests were already inserting God's name in places it didn't exist, since at that time his name wasn't known. The same could be said about the order of the lights and the light.
-- Elpidio gonzalez (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 19, 2002.
I do believe that the setting Sun could compare to the death of Christ, with the rising Sun his return.
"Each day in creation could even be over a billion years!. Remember the stars and planets in other galaxies were here before earth."
I give you 2 verses:
Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
2pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
So the most you could "pull" from Scripture would be 6,000 years for creation.
Thanks, for your input...
-- Tim (email@example.com), November 19, 2002.
I will answer you Tim from scripture, science, and revelation.
1a)The sabbath (shabat) was created for rest and dedication to God.That's the meaning of Exodus 20:11. Adam and his descendants all the way to Moses never observed the day we call now saturday. You will not find such observance in Genesis.1b)To have an earth day you need the sun and the moon. According to Genesis they were part of the 4th day. So how long were days 1,2, and 3? They could not be measured in earth days.
The number 1000 you quoted from 2 peter is like a saying. Notice scripture always rounds to any of these numbers: 7, 10,40, 70, 100, 120, 400.Could you see multiples like 40,80,120,400?Was Moses 40 when he left Egypt? Was he 80 when he returned? Was he 120 when he died? Men then are like men now: We get old. Not even Michael Jordan can defy time at 39 1/2 years. Most likely Moses was in his 50s. Was Sarah 90 when she had Isaac? Find me a woman today who has a baby by natural means after the age of 50. The used to marry by 15. 25 years after leaving Ur with sarah, Abraham's wife had a son. So most likely she was 40-44 years of age.
If you follow judges and I kings when the temple began to be erected by Solomon, it was 490 years since they left Egypt. Using those numbers could give a date around the 1450s BC, Yet, actually they left around 1247 BC.Rameses was king in the 13th cet. BC, not the 14th. Remember the Hebrews built Pi Rameses!.Jesus began preaching around 28 AD (15 year of Tiberius). 27-28 was the jubillee Jesus was alluding to when he opened the book of Isaiah and read about the true acceptable year of the Lord( Yahweh).
Light traves at 300,000 meters per second. We see the light of stars far away. Their distances are measured in light years. So star light needs thousands of years sometimes to reach earth. 6000 is too short a period. God has to create them all. God continues to create.
God's (Yahweh) light is even faster.It traves at the speed of a thought. You say: I am in Jupiter, zoom, there you are. I actually have seen it twice in 2 dream revelations I had from him. The first was in July 23, 2000. His light comes out of him and shines upon you, that you are not able to see him, but you can hear him. This light doesn't burn. It is like a white light bulb. Remember how Moses face shone after talking to God in the mountain? (Exodus). Remember how Jesus light shone after taking Peter, James , and John up the mountain? That's how my face shone. My revelation was in 4 parts. One part included a mountain, one included Yavé speaking in English and Spanish talking to me mostle about Protestants, the third Jesus and Catholics with a prophecy about not raining hard for 3 years around the area I live: Los Angeles, and back to the mountain again.
The second in October 2000. Of this second my wife was a witness. She described the same scene from the experience of seeing me while I was talking to him. She woke me up after my face stopped shining.
That is the problem of Protestantism: they believe God doesn't speak to people today. He does. I am not the only one. Many are afraid to talk about it. Other than my family, the Pope, Clinton, Bush, and Eugene Chavez , you are the other person to know this.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 20, 2002.