Why is our dear Pope entrusting his future in Mary instead of Jesus? The Associated Press said that "The pope, 82, recalled that during his recent trip to Poland, he asked the Virgin Mary for strength to continue his mission "until the end."

"I repeat those words today, giving thanks to God for the 24 years of my service to the Church in the See of Peter," he said. "I once again entrust to the Blessed Virgin my future."

Mary did not attain sinless perfection on earth, nor was she devine. Although most blessed among women, she was a sinner in need of a Savior the same as the rest of us. Our pope is seriously deceived if he is entrusting his future to Mary. I urge all bible believing Roman catholics not to fall for this Satanic deception, but rather, keep their eyes fixed on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith. According to the Bible, Jesus is the only intercessor between God the father and mankind. And in light of the pope's statement yesterday, we need to pray hard for his spiritual well being.

-- Robert Wilson (rwjewelry@aol.com), October 17, 2002

Answers

He is putting his trust in Mary as an intercessor. She is an intercessor to Jesus, who is an intercessor to the Father. Just as God himself works through others, like being born of woman, we ourselves can entrust ourselves to others. Mary is a saint in heaven, and our prayers through her are perfected. She is the greatest of advocates, to Jesus.

By the way, you sound like a Protestant, and not like a fellow Catholic.

-- Gordon (g@g.g), October 17, 2002.

Well, Robert would have excommunicated himself for the denial of the Immaculate Conception anyway. And if he's not a Catholic, then perhaps he should mind his honesty--unless, even as a Protestant, he has some kind of special admiration for our Holy Father such that he would honestly address him as "our dear Pope"--but I doubt it. To call him "dear" one second and then accuse of of "Satanic deception" the next! So low.

Anyway, presuming that our Lord, Jesus, Son of God the Father, the Word made Flesh, the Alpha and Omega of all things, would be conceived in a womb of sin, born of sin, raised by sin, only to abandon his sinful mother to an uncertain eternity before the God who selected her for the purpose of bearing and bringing the Salvation of the World Incarnate into the world, Robert is absolutely right.

Yech, I want to wretch. Now I know how C.S. Lewis felt after writing the Screwtape Letters.

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.

We are instructed to "put on Christ", to cover ourselves with His merits rather than our own. The closer we are to Christ, the more we share in His life.

Who was His father? God. Therefore God is our Father too. And who was His mother? Mary. Therefore, Mary is our Mother too. We are to love and honor her here on earth, just as Jesus is loving and honoring her in heaven.

Love, :-)

-- Christine L. (chris_tine_lehman@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.

Robert -

I believe that you have seen the light. It is exactly as you have said - The pope has apparently put his trust in Mary and not in Christ! We are to trust in Christ for our future!

Psalm 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. [Mary]

Gordon -

Why does the pope need and intercession by Mary? Mary is dead, in heaven, but dead. Christ is our intercessor to the Father, God.

Hebrews 7:25-28 - Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Protestant or Catholic - the Word of God remains the final authority!

Skoobouy -

As for your comments, "presuming that our Lord, Jesus, Son of God the Father...would be conceived in a womb of sin, born of sin, raised by sin, only to abandon his sinful mother to an uncertain eternity before the God ..." I must disagree.

Fact: Mary was a sinner.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:8-10 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Fact: Mary needed Jesus Christ as her Saviour.

Luke 1:46-48 - And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. [not sinnless]

Fact: Sin is passed to every man through Adam [the seed]

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Fact: Christ was not born of the seed of Adam, therefore the Son of God without the sin nature.

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. [her seed - man produces seed, not woman]

Fact: There is no uncertainty in the faith of the Christian.

Titus 1:2 - In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Christine -

Your words, "We are instructed to "put on Christ", to cover ourselves with His merits rather than our own. The closer we are to Christ, the more we share in His life. " - AMEN!!!

As far "Who was His father? God. Therefore God is our Father too."

This is true for every born again believer, no just anyone.

UNSAVED: John 8:43-44 - Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

SAVED: I John 3:2-3 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

As concerning, "who was His mother? Mary. Therefore, Mary is our Mother too." Where do you get this? Mary was His earthly mother yes, but Christ is God in the flesh - therefore having no mother.

God Bless!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 17, 2002.

So then Tim... everybody in the 1,500 years after Christ and before the Reformation went to Hell? =0

Has Guttenberg made salvation possible?

Are not the various self-serving interpretations of Scripture by unskilled individuals the "works of man"?

So, if one defects from the One True Church, which one of the thousands of denominations that disagree with each other the right one for me?

Or, could it be that you are the one that does not see the light?

And I need an answer to this: Why do Satanists set themselves up in opposition to the Catholic Church, and no other Church? And mock our Mass (as in the Black Mass) and desecrate our Eucharist? Is it because we are the true enemy of Satan? Is not the camp of the enemy of your enemy the right place to be?

Just some thoughts for you to consider. If your zeal is authentic, then God will finish the work He has started in you.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 17, 2002.

Indeed Emerald, you suppose a mighty question:

"Are not the various self-serving interpretations of Scripture by unskilled individuals the "works of man"?"

I believe the answer to this question is both yes and no... But, let me explain.

First, what then is the final authority? God or man?

If God, then what?

If man, then what?

I believe that God has given His Word for our final authority: 2 Peter 1:17,18 says that God spoke from Heaven and said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.", yet "We have also a more sure word of prophecy;" [vs.19]. So, the scripture is more sure than the voice from Heaven.

Are interpretations of scripture "works of man"?

They can be if they are lies: 2 Corinthians 2:17 - For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

They are not the mere "works of man" when they come from the Spirit: 2 Peter 1:21 - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

What does God say about the scriptures?

2 Peter 1:20 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The church [any church] is not the final authority.

You ask: "So, if one defects from the One True Church, which one of the thousands of denominations that disagree with each other the right one for me?"

My opinion:

First, what is the "One True Church"? I believe that would have to be the Church of Christ [all Believers, regardless of religion, that are washed in the the blood of Christ and that will be in Heaven with Christ].

Religion does not save any of us. I believe that the only purpose that religion [names] serves is to seperate the belief of certain doctrines. Of course, now days, man has become so preverted that even the religions have been divided [ex. Not all Catholics believe the same as other Catholics, nor do all Baptist, Lutherans, etc.] It is really ashame.

This is why I believe that the Word of God has to be the final authority. If we say that the Book contains errors, then what do we believe? Is God perfect? Of course, who would disagree. Does God want us to go to Heaven? Of course. So, why would He give us a Bible that can't speak to us with Truth?

To be honest, you are correct - Christ started 1 church - but neither Catholic or Protestant. It was the Church of His Believers then and to come. The reason for all of the religions is because man has not heeded to the Spirit of God and has created beliefs that do not hold true to the Word of God.

Satan hates anyone that loves God and tries to do His will.

I admit, I do not know everything, for I am mere man. I pray as you have claimed, "If your zeal is authentic, then God will finish the work He has started in you."

Till we see death, I pray that God will continue to work in ALL MEN that they may come to salvation through Christ, and that we shall all grow in the Truth. Amen!

Let me leave you with this: Where do you put your trust?

The Church? [man]

The Emotions? [man]

The Scriptures? [God]

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 17, 2002.

Sorry, your quesion:

So then Tim... everybody in the 1,500 years after Christ and before the Reformation went to Hell?

Deut. 4:9-10 - Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 17, 2002.

Tim says:

"First, what is the "One True Church"? I believe that would have to be the Church of Christ [all Believers, regardless of religion, that are washed in the the blood of Christ and that will be in Heaven with Christ]."

This is an interesting statement; what springs to mind here is that if you take the Church of Christ to be the first part of what you said, namely, "those that are washed in the blood of Christ", and if that is not the Catholic Church, there will be immediate disagreement among the members of this group as to e.g. what the phrase means, what one must do to qualify for the group, what the 'Blood of Christ' refers to, and on and on... failing unity on these questions, there would then have to be yet another common denominator whereby one would be defined as being 'in the Church'. Perhaps this is the origin of the term 'denominations'.

Or, if you say that the Church consists of "those that will be in Heaven with Christ", well hmmm... this would be somewhat of a platitude, right?

You will continually have this "Church" of such an elusive character, that the means by which salvation is attainable is never at all clear. You will eventually throw your hands up in the air and declare that 'anyone who is a good person will go to Heaven', thereby rendering the Cross of Christ void, and denying the consequences of original and actual sin.

The only other alternative is to declare allegiance to the Scripture, outside of the influence of unity and authority. The danger here is that, since Scripture is Truth, and Truth can sometimes be hard to hear, that we may unwittingly interpret it falsely to satisfy our own ends. Tradition and authority serve well to keep this pitfall from happening.

But there is a One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You do seem sincere. As an experiment, try this: for the sake of argument, abandon all your presently held conceptions or pre-conceptions about the Catholic Church, and then approach to learn from the good people in it, what it really is all about.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 17, 2002.

Emerald,

I do not think that I made my case as clear as I had hope to do so.

My prayer is that I will keep my heart and mind open to Christ, that He may indeed lead me into the knowledge of Him and His Word that He wants ever Believer to have.

You state: "The danger here is that, since Scripture is Truth, and Truth can sometimes be hard to hear, that we may unwittingly interpret it falsely to satisfy our own ends. Tradition and authority serve well to keep this pitfall from happening."

Agree (99%) - (1%) but when tradition and authority contradicts the Word of God, then it is tradition that must be cast aside.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 17, 2002.

Tim, I think you made your case alright... meaning that I understood your case well enough, though we obviously disagree. I should tell you that I went to an all Protestant high school and had these same discussions many many times with Protestant friends of various denominations since that time, so I am fairly versed in such topics. Not as well as some others on this forum.

If you keep saying that prayer in sincerity your wishes will be granted.

God Bless

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 18, 2002.

Tim, you wrote:

"As concerning, "who was His mother? Mary. Therefore, Mary is our Mother too." Where do you get this? Mary was His earthly mother yes, but Christ is God in the flesh - therefore having no mother."

Ah hah - here we have the crux of the matter. Who was Christ? Are "Jesus" and "Christ" two different people?

This is an ancient heresy. In fact, that was the whole reason why the Church defined Mary as the "Mother of God" -- not to defend Mary but to defend Christ Jesus, to show that HE IS GOD -- not two different people.

Christ Jesus, the 2nd person of the Trinity, has a Father AND a Mother. He is not divided.

Also -- another point -- why do you insist that it is a choice between Mary OR Christ? Mary's whole life and whole reason for existing was to glorify God ("My soul magnifies the Lord!") -- therefore, anyone who wishes to please her must do the same! :-)

-- Christine L. (christinelehman@hotmail.com), October 18, 2002.

> Why does the pope need and intercession by Mary? Mary is dead, in heven, but dead. Christ is our intercessor to the Father, God.

She more alive than you or me. Jesus said that he offering everlasting life, to those who are saved. Life in heaven does not mean that a saint cannot hear our intentions. Why should they be deaf to our pleas, if we sinners down here on earth, are not deaf to each others pleas.

I never said that Mary was the inteccessor to the Father, so go back and re-read what I said. I have no problems with Jesus being the only inteccessor to the Father, as I stated above, and what the Church teaches.

> Protestant or Catholic - the Word of God remains the final authority!

Yes, but I accept the interpretation that the Catholic Church provides, and I see no point in accepting yours when it is contrary to that interpretation. Are you claiming infallibility for your own interpretation?

You clearly have an agenda here, so there is not much point in debating these issues with you anymore.

God Bless.

Gordon

-- Gordon (g@g.g), October 18, 2002.

"She more alive than you or me. Jesus said that he offering everlasting life, to those who are saved. Life in heaven does not mean that a saint cannot hear our intentions. Why should they be deaf to our pleas, if we sinners down here on earth, are not deaf to each others pleas."

Well said, Gordon!

Thank you.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 18, 2002.

Christine -

"Christ Jesus, the 2nd person of the Trinity, has a Father AND a Mother. He is not divided."

I agree 100%, I ment that by stating, "Mary was His earthly mother yes, but Christ is God in the flesh - therefore having no mother."

Christ is of the Trinity, therefore from the beginning, before Mary.

We agree on this point.

"therefore, anyone who wishes to please her must do the same!" - Why must we please her. True - any Christian that has gone on before us would have delight in seeing a Christian, still on earth, doing right. But our focus should be to please God. [more important than pleases Mary, or any other Saint]

Gordon -

I am sorry if I have offended you. I have no agenda, but to let the truth be known. Whether it comes from this person or that.

I quote you, "She is an intercessor to Jesus, who is an intercessor to the Father."

So, we must pray to Marry to pray to Christ to pray to God?

Why not pray directly to Christ? Although Marry was definitly a special woman in the eyes of God, I do not believe she has the power to help us now.

Honestly, I do not believe that the Saints in Heaven see us here below, because there are no tears in Heaven - and they would definitly have tears if they could see family memebers not serving the Lord and all the sin that is in the world today.

To God be the glory!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 18, 2002.

My mistake... TRINITY = 3, not 4

Father - Son - Holy Spirit

You claim: Father - Son - Holy Spirit - Mary

That would believe in "Quad-inty"?

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 18, 2002.

Hi Tim,

Revelations depicts the elders "handing" over vials of incense "which are the prayers of the saints" and also there is the scriptural reference about the souls martyred for the Lord under the altar crying out "How long will you wait to avenge our blood." Apparently they are aware that the Lord has not avenged their blood. (Sorry I don't have time to look up the references but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about) Anyway, the Lord will wipe away our tears when our battle against Satan is finally over, i.e, after the Second Coming. Also, remember how Elijah and Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration as the Lord queued them in on his mission to Jerusalem. He involved them in His plan. But how could that be since they were dead? He involved them because He wanted to!

Also, see Hebrews, Chapter 12, vs. 22 through 24, the pertinent part being "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the SPIRITS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN MADE PERFECT." (I think KJ says "spirits of dead men"

I want to refer you now to the catechism of the Catholic Church lest you think that Catholics CAN'T pray to God the Father or the Lord. In fact, just the opposite is true.

Please see the following

Prayer to the Father

2664 There is no other way of Christian prayer than Christ. Whether our prayer is communal or personal, vocal or interior, it has access to the Father only if we pray "in the name" of Jesus. The sacred humanity of Jesus is therefore the way by which the Holy Spirit teaches us to pray to God our Father.

Prayer to Jesus

2665 The prayer of the Church, nourished by the Word of God and the celebration of the liturgy, teaches us to pray to the Lord Jesus. Even though her prayer is addressed above all to the Father, it includes in all the liturgical traditions forms of prayer addressed to Christ. Certain psalms, given their use in the Prayer of the Church, and the New Testament place on our lips and engrave in our hearts prayer to Christ in the form of invocations: Son of God, Word of God, Lord, Savior, Lamb of God, King, Beloved Son, Son of the Virgin, Good Shepherd, our Life, our Light, our Hope, our Resurrection, Friend of mankind. . . .

2666 But the one name that contains everything is the one that the Son of God received in his incarnation: JESUS. The divine name may not be spoken by human lips, but by assuming our humanity The Word of God hands it over to us and we can invoke it: "Jesus," "YHWH saves."16 The name "Jesus" contains all: God and man and the whole economy of creation and salvation. To pray "Jesus" is to invoke him and to call him within us. His name is the only one that contains the presence it signifies. Jesus is the Risen One, and whoever invokes the name of Jesus is welcoming the Son of God who loved him and who gave himself up for him.17

2668 The invocation of the holy name of Jesus is the simplest way of praying always. When the holy name is repeated often by a humbly attentive heart, the prayer is not lost by heaping up empty phrases,19 but holds fast to the word and "brings forth fruit with patience."20 This prayer is possible "at all times" because it is not one occupation among others but the only occupation: that of loving God, which animates and transfigures every action in Christ Jesus.

2669 The prayer of the Church venerates and honors the Heart of Jesus just as it invokes his most holy name. It adores the incarnate Word and his Heart which, out of love for men, he allowed to be pierced by our sins. Christian prayer loves to follow the way of the cross in the Savior's steps. The stations from the Praetorium to Golgotha and the tomb trace the way of Jesus, who by his holy Cross has redeemed the world

Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant through His precious blood on Calvary. Mary mediates ONLY by her intercessory prayer, NOT as our Savior. She is our heavenly prayer warrier. Of course, why wouldn't she pray that way? She suffered more than any HUMAN mother watching her divine son die on the cross. She would want the conversion of all sinners to her son.

She deserves more honor than any woman in all of history. Why? Because she delivered the Savior to the world by her acts of complete obedience, an obedience funded by the grace of God.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 18, 2002.

So, we must pray to Marry to pray to Christ to pray to God?

No, of course not. Christ is a mediator, not an intercessor; being both God and man, he is the actualization of the Logos which has existed before Creation. He is truly the only mediator, and there is no other--not Buddha, not Mohammed, etc.

All Christians are called to pray (note--not forced to; however, to deny Mary's intercessory status as the Mother of God is a sin against faith) for Mary's intercession in the same model that she exemplified at the Wedding from the Gospels, by whose intercession Jesus performed the first miracle of his earthly ministry.

Why not pray directly to Christ?

It doesn't sound very pragmatic, does it? But pragmatism is not part of the Catholic mentality. The simple answer to your question is love. When we love, we don't always take the shortest route necessary to accomplish goals. We glorify God in part by forming a familial relationship of affection and reverence for his--and our (spiritual)--mother Mary.

Although Marry was definitly a special woman in the eyes of God, I do not believe she has the power to help us now.

Jesus was a much better son to his mother than you are to yours, or I was to mine. Are you telling me that your own mother is nothing more than a "special woman" in your eyes? Whatever affection you have for your mother, do you think that Jesus' for Mary was somehow on a comparable or even lesser degree?

And there's absolutely no grounds for what you say regarding Mary's ability to help us. It denies the fact that Jesus is and remains a man, and is the same man/God who took his mother's counsel at the Wedding. The Mary and Jesus in Heaven now are the same Mary and Jesus we read about in the Gospels. Jesus was no less God at the Wedding than he is now, and yet he revealed to us his special openness to his mother Mary's wishes. Her intercession is powerful, and it is scripturally based.

Honestly, I do not believe that the Saints in Heaven see us here below, because there are no tears in Heaven - and they would definitly have tears if they could see family memebers not serving the Lord and all the sin that is in the world today.

Neither is Heaven a place of ignorance and darkness, which appears to be what you are suggesting. The reason there are no tears in Heaven is not because the saints are ignorant, but because--duh--God's providence and plan are fully perfect and beautiful, and no one living in utmost union with him could shed tears over the continual unfolding of his redeeming plan. As a point in fact, such tears would be symptomatic of despair, the gravest sin against Hope, which of course you know would be impossible in Heaven anyway.

The saints don't have any power of their own, but of course it would necessarily be through God that they hear our prayers and join their holy voices with our deformed voices in adoration, thanks, and petition.

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), October 18, 2002.

Psalm 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. [Mary]

This is a false dichotomy. According to your interpretation, it is objectively sinful to place one's trust in men. Which means, of course, that God has sinned many, many times. (read: Moses, Prophets, Apostles, etc etc.) Catholic devotion to Mary cannot displace the adoration we give God--in fact, it only augments it.

Protestant or Catholic - the Word of God remains the final authority!

No disagreement, but Catholics have never held the scriptural canon to be the totality of the Word of God. In truth, the Word (Logos) is Jesus himself. But Christ says a great deal more about the authenticity of the teaching of his Apostles (He who hears you, hears me) (The sins you forgive will be forgiven in Heaven, and those you retain will be retained) (Binding and loosing, etc.) than he did about any book. The book was later, and the book was assembled and promulgated and made authentic by the successor of Peter and those of the Apostles, the episcopacy.

Fact: Mary was a sinner.

See, now there you go saying stuff that you would never say to Jesus's face. Mind your manners. He's listening.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

All who? All people? Jesus was people. So now there are exceptions? Why would he not mean, "all now living"? Or "All you Romans"? There is nothing in the grammar of that sentence that excludes those possibilities (especially considering that he was writing to the Romans. That is an ambiguous "all". And don't go whipping out your Webster's dictionary. Lots of words are ambiguous beyond their denotation. Martin K. Barrack writes (in greard to feminist English), "Everyone knows run as what a clock does, run as what a river does, run as what a horse does, run as what a ferry does, run as what a lease does, run as what a child's nose does, and run as what a stocking does."

1 John 1:8-10 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This one is even easier: look at the pronoun, man! "We," not me, you, them, or all instances of human beings ever on this planet. In this context it most simply means "we" of the Way [Christianity].

Fact: Mary needed Jesus Christ as her Saviour.

Guess what? You're right! That's what the Immaculate Conception is: the purification of Mary at her conception that would be necessary for her to carry the Word Incarnate in her womb.

from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. [not sinnless]

Another false dichotomy. Blessed = not sinless? This is a fallacy of argument from silence: the Scripture quote does not say that Mary never sinned, and therefore, she sinned. That conclusion does not follow.

Fact: Sin is passed to every man through Adam [the seed]

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Fact: Christ was not born of the seed of Adam, therefore the Son of God without the sin nature.

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. [her seed - man produces seed, not woman]

Everything written above is very sound Catholic and Christian doctrine. Mary was born free from Original Sin not because of her nature, but because God willed it and intervened; he chose her and purified her. Christ would not be born from a womb tainted by Original Sin. This was taught by the early Church Fathers even before the Bible was canonized (with supreme irony, I'm sure you'll agree, by bishops and the Supreme Pontiff, Bishop of Rome)

As concerning, "who was His mother? Mary. Therefore, Mary is our Mother too." Where do you get this? Mary was His earthly mother yes, but Christ is God in the flesh - therefore having no mother.

You've slipped again into the heresy that Earthly Christ =/ Christ Son of God and Savior in Heaven, and Mary "earthly mother" =/ Mary in Heaven with Christ.

Tim, you might try This little page and understand that Catholics really aren't going to yield on this one. You're not only running into Scriptural and doctrinal problems with your interpretations, but you're trying to take away our Spiritual Mother Mary, which is a kind of spiritual terrorism. Protestants can't understand this because they think that Mary is just a "very special dead woman," but any Catholic with a devotion to Mary is going to be positively scandalized every time you open your mouth on the topic.

Look, I know you were probably taught the stuff you're telling us in good faith, so I'm not going to tell you to embrace Mary and to heck with your religious background. But I will ask that you pray to Jesus Christ for guidance. "Who is Mary to you? Who is Mary to me? What does her motherhood to you mean?" I can only testify that a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is for me a happy state in life. A blessed one.

God loves me too much. :)

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), October 18, 2002.

You claim: Father - Son - Holy Spirit - Mary

That would believe in "Quad-inty"?

Jiminey Christmas, man! How many armies of Catholics have to tell you? Mary is not God, she is not part of the Trinity, she is a creature! Read the Athanasian Creed.

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), October 18, 2002.

To Gail & Skoobouy -

I appreciate your thoroughness in your anwsers. Although I do not agree with everything that has been said, it has given me more insight to your beliefs concerning this matter.

Gail -

Agreed, Rev. 5:8 as you say, "Revelations depicts the elders "handing" over vials of incense "which are the prayers of the saints" - but who are Saints - the sons of God - Christians.

"souls martyred for the Lord under the altar crying out "How long will you wait to avenge our blood." - Rev.6:10 - The mere knowledge of something, does not mean they have insight into the matter. But this can be neither proven or disproven by this scripture. We will know many more things in Heaven than we do now.

At least in Heaven we will be no this view and that view - we will all know the exact truth that Jesus Christ wants us to know, and we will all be as one in Heaven. Praise God! And no more sin!

Skoobouy -

"Mary's intercession in the same model that she exemplified at the Wedding from the Gospels, by whose intercession Jesus performed the first miracle of his earthly ministry."

Although, indeed, Jesus performed the miracle, He also rebuked Mary for it. She was talking in the physcial and He the spiritual. Infact, He calls her Woman. Did He [Christ] ever call her mother?

John 2:3-4 - And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

This is not a good example for intercession by Mary.

"Neither is Heaven a place of ignorance and darkness, which appears to be what you are suggesting."

Far from it. I am merely stating that I believe there is no reason for the Christians in Heaven to be worried about this world anymore. They are in Heaven, perfect, and know all the answers...ha!

God Bless You!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 18, 2002.

> "I am sorry if I have offended you. I have no agenda, but to let the truth be known. Whether it comes from this person or that."

Sorry, as I thought you were the original poster of this thread, but I see that you are not.

> "So, we must pray to Marry to pray to Christ to pray to God?"

We have a choice to ask for Mary's intercession, and she has a choice to pray on our behave. There is no obligation by anyone here. We ask for others here on earth to pray for us, so it is the same concept.

You don't believe that the saints can hear us, but I don't believe that. I believe that they can very well hear us.

If we are taking something away from honouring God, by communicating (praying) to Mary to pray for us, then it would be equally wrong to ask someone here on earth to pray for us, for we could have asked God directly instead of asking for an intercessor. Either both are wrong, or both are right. You can't have one being wrong, and the other being right, since they are the same thing!

-- Gordon (g@g.g), October 18, 2002.

Hello, Tim

How are you? Its been a long time. Do you know Rev. Dr. Lance, ordained Minister, Indep, UsuiMaster that was in forum last year? And than there was his other alias Sam?

Just asking? :-)

David

PS; Lancey had enough fuel to run 5 computers. He also charged 10 dollars for a prayer as long as you send a few pictures.

Hi, Gordon

It has been a while. Welcome back

David

-- David (David@excite.com), October 18, 2002.

This is my first time to visit here. I actually found this by looking for something else.

My name is Tim. I am not a Dr. nor am I an alias for one.

Whether or not I agree or disagree with someone, I would not use a different name. I am myself - as we should all be. We should not be ashamed of what we believe, or we are hypocrites and really do not believe it. And when we find that we are wrong, we should not be to proud to admit it, and conform to the truth.[I am not saying that either side is wrong or right here. I am just making a statement.]

And Hello to you too... [I understand]

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 18, 2002.

Well, Tim, it has been a pleasure talking with you. Even if we haven't changed your mind, I hope you can see that the "Case against Catholicism" isn't quite the slam dunk most Protestants are lead to believe.

At any rate, you're a gentlemen, and your manners are much appreciated!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 19, 2002.

"As concerning, "who was His mother? Mary. Therefore, Mary is our Mother too." Where do you get this? Mary was His earthly mother yes, but Christ is God in the flesh - therefore having no mother."

Rev. 12:17.

Then the dragon was angry with the woman (Mary), and went off to make war on the REST of HER children, THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS.

Well, if you keep the commandments and hold the testimony of Jesus, then whether you like it or not Mary's your mother!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 20, 2002.

Jake -

"Then the dragon was angry with the woman (Mary), and went off to make war on the REST of HER children, THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS."

I am afraid you are mistaken.

Revelation 12 is talking about Israel. Note:

vs. 1 - crown of twelve stars = 12 tribes of Israel

vs. 3 - dragon = Satan

vs. 4 - star = fallen angels

vs. 5 - man child = Christ

vs. 6 - fled into the wilderness...a thousand two hundred and threescore days = Israel must hide the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

and so on...

To believe this is Mary, there is truly a lot of explaining that needs to be done: Why is she having another child? Why is she running to the wilderness? Is Satan persecuting Mary now? She will get wings so she can fly?

Really read the entire chapter and see what is most logical.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

Jake; offhand I believe the woman in that passage could be perceived to be Mary, but the whole passage seems to make more sense if the woman is perceived to be the Church itself, at the time at which you see it right now, far as I can tell.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

No, Emerald, I think you're wrong on that. It couldn't be the church because the church didn't give birth to Christ.

But really, TLW, the 12 stars could be the apostles as well as Israel and this scene could certainly depict two meanings, as scripture often does.

As to your "speculations" of the 1,200 days of Jews hiding during the tribulation, that is purely conjecture! In fact, the whole present day "rapture" and "tribulation" phenomenon is purely conjecture and did not become popular until the 1800's by Darby and Scofield. End times prophecy experts all differ in their interpretations of Revelations as you well know. They all have scripture to back up their theories, but they are nothing more than "theories" nonetheless.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 20, 2002.

True, Gail... speculation. What I was thinking was that it may not refer to Christ that was being born in this 12th chapter, but someone else such as a great ruler, born of the Church, a great monarch that would dispel heresy and unify the nations of the world under the Catholic Church in a time of great crisis.

Crazy, huh? Speculation. =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

Right you are, Emerald, all's fair in private interpretation, or is it?

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1 Peter 1:20

and

2 Peter, Chap 3: 16 As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (distort), as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 20, 2002.

...or not a great monarch, but a great Pope. Or both, working in unison.

I do think there is a secondary layer in that passage that may refer to Mary, as Mary is the archetype for the bringing of Christ into the world, as a consistant recurring theme. But what makes me think the primary reference is not Mary but the Church, is that the 'she' gives birth in pain...

But actually, I have no idea what the true interpretation is with any certainty. I would guess we would not know the exact fulfillment of this prophecy until we can see it in retrospect, or, after the events occur.

Obviously the key is to make sure whatever you try to draw out of it is not in contradiction to the Deposit of Faith. Maybe there are other quidelines for the proper interpration of Scripture as well.

This is a hard and frustrating book.

Who knows? lol.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

Gail, you may call me Tim, instead of TLW.ha!

You don't believe in the rapture? Granted, the word rapture is not in scripture, but the act most definitly is.

1 Corinthians 15:51,52 -Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,18 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The tribulation is a much deeper discussion, which would take a great amount to prove - with scripture. Not that the scripture has to be "twisted", but there is just so much involved. Revelation and Daniel, etc.

I believe the Word of God is our source of the past events, but also the future. Although we don't always see it before hand, as Emerald claims, we see at the end that indeed it has been recorded for us in the Word of God.

But, don't get frustrated Emerald. We as man can not understand the things of God alone. The Spirit of Truth must show them to us. And we do not all see the same things and the same time. God reveals things to us as He desires. But keep studing and He will keep revealing.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

Hi Tim,

I think you've had the proper answers from our brothers in this thread, but there's something I'd like to point out... you said:"Although I do not agree with everything that has been said, it has given me more insight to your beliefs concerning this matter."; I'm convinced that right there is where the protestant-catholic problem lies: most of the time you don't know exactly what is that we catholics believe; and when you hear about those things that surprise you about our beliefs you tend to read what well-known protestants have to say about it and not what the Catholic Church says about it, by the way, just in case you don't know it, if it's catholic doctrine (regarding faith or moral), then it is just One doctrine, you won't find a group missenterpreting what the Church said and holding their position while still being a "catholic" group. That's a great advantage of having a Magisterium.

I can see that you are a very honest christian and that your intentions are just and clear, but so are the other persons's in this forum and still we cannot reconcile our ideas; more thant that, I think we will all agree that Our Lord wants us to be united (and He always has) so even when having all these things in our favor: love, respect, comprehension, God's Will, the actions of the Holy Spirit, etc. we are not united then we might want to try a different approach or ask ourselves if we really want to be together.

A couple of thoughts (questions)... Angels participate wholly of the Glory of God and they are helping us; Jesus is unceasingly interceding for us before the Father and He is surrounded by the spirits of the just... what are they doing? Can they be comtemplating Jesus and throwing coronas at his feet with great joy as He is "worried" praying for His brothers on earth? wasn't His Redemption perfect and complete? Those justs got to heaven ONLY because they knew how to, and did, love and pray for their brothers, now in heaven everybody is doing precisely that and they have to cease doing what they did and what is done there? do I make sense? I hope I do, if not, please let me know and I'd gladly show you were I'm heading.

In the Love of Jesus.

-- Cristian (gabaonscy@hotmail.com), October 21, 2002.

Tim and Emerald,

I believe that the reference to the "woman" in Rev. who is fighting with the "dragon" is a very clear connection to Gen. where God tells the Serpent (a form of a dragon) Gen. 3: And I will put (15) enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; (16) He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

And the woman ran into the wilderness - Mary and Joseph had to leave because Herod was having all the newborn's killed - we see how the dragon was waiting as the woman (Mary) was ready to give birth!

The crown of twelve stars, whether it is the 12 tribes of Israel or the 12 Apostles, is clear evidence of Mary's Queenship over the world!

If someone can find any Church teachings or interpretations refuting these insites, I will surly conform.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 21, 2002.

Jake, your points on Mary as the Queen from Revelations makes just as much sense and anyone elses interpretation!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 21, 2002.

The woman in Revelations has traditionally been recognized as applying BOTH the Church and as Mary, in this way:

The *prophecy* is considered to apply to the Church. The *language* is used to apply to Mary in liturgy and prayer.

Remember, Mary is considered to be a symbol for the Church -- and also remember, the apostle John, who wrote this prophecy, was the same one who took Mary into his home at Jesus' request. So he certainly must have been *thinking* about Mary when he wrote this!

Love, :-)

-- Christine L. (chris_tine_lehman@hotmail.com), October 21, 2002.

Tim, I broke your rapture questions off into another thread for convenience sake.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 21, 2002.

Hi Gail, Jake... just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was saying you were wrong but that I think we are both right. Christine L. did a better job of saying it. Thanks, Christine.

Fascinating, huh?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 21, 2002.

I remember A LONG TIME AGO as a young Protestant, when I first read that passage just automatically thinking it was referring to Mary! Just seemed a natural response. A "woman" giving birth to Jesus, must be Mary!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 21, 2002.

-- (:@:.:), October 26, 2002.

Please Remember Robert, The Holy Creed. You cannot claim to believe in Crist our Lord and then denie The Holy Virgin,Crist Mother .Chosen by god himself.Therefore if you denie Crist's Mother divinity and authority ,you denie Crist.and if you denie Crist you denie God.If God hadden chosen the Holy Virgin then she would have no divinity ,but ,he did. Something to think about .

sincerely a devout Catholic.

-- Erik Gutierrez (erik_g13@yahoo.com), October 26, 2002.

Hi Eric, YIKES!! The Church does not teach Mary is "divine." She is not diety. She is a creature, a blessed holy creature, wholly sanctified from her mother's womb, but NOT diety!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 27, 2002.

If a Catholic does not know that one of the ancient interpretations of the Woman of Revelation 12 is our Blessed Mother, then that Catholic must be failing to attend Mass on the holy day of obligation called the Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. On that feast, the passage from Rev. 12 is read, making clear that the woman is primarily understood to be Mary (without denying that she can also represent Israel and the Church).

Confirmation of this comes from our wonderful Catechism -----

1138. "'Recapitulated in Christ,' these are the ones who take part in the service of the praise of God and the fulfillment of his plan: the heavenly powers, all creation (the four living beings), the servants of the Old and New Covenants (the twenty-four elders), the new People of God (the one hundred and forty-four thousand), [Cf. Rev.4-5; Rev.7:1-8; Rev.14:1; Isa 6:2-3] especially the martyrs 'slain for the word of God,' and the all-holy Mother of God (the Woman), the Bride of the Lamb, [Rev. 6:9-11; Rev. 21:9; cf. Rev. 12] and finally 'a great multitude which no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes, and peoples and tongues.' [Rev. 7:9]."

2853. "Victory over the 'prince of this world' [Jn 14:30] was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is 'cast out.' [Jn 12:31; Rev. 12:10]. 'He pursued the Woman'[Rev. 12:13-16.] but had no hold on her: the new Eve, 'full of grace' of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). 'Then the dragon was angry with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.' [Rev. 12:17] Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: 'Come, Lord Jesus,' [Rev. 22:17,20] since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One."

-- I (Love@You.Mother), October 27, 2002.

"It was revealed to me that through the intercession of the Mother of God, all heresies will disappear. This victory over heresies has been reserved by Christ for His Blessed Mother...Before the Second Coming of Christ, Mary must, more than ever, shine in mercy, might and grace in order to bring unbelievers into the Catholic Faith." Venerable Mary of Agreda - Seventeenth Century

-- choas (choas@ivillage.com), November 01, 2002.

God bless Mary in heaven ...but I for one dont need her to have salvation because the bible teaches me that ALL I NEED IS JESUS!Thats it nothing else just Jesus and GODS HOLY SPIRIT LEADING ME TO MY FINAL DESTINATION ^....AMEN!!!!

-- rr (wrbjk@aol.com), November 06, 2002.

That's right! All you need is Jesus. Pure and simple: Jesus. However, if you asked Jesus how He would like you to pray, worship, commune, etc., do you think he would want it all for Himself? What Father would not want their child to have a family. What Father would not want their child talking to their mother or brother and sisters? God certainly doesn't want such a lonely relationship with simply you and His Son! Yes, our God is a Jealous God, so don't WORSHIP false gods. BUT!, God is also a loving Father who has set us up with such a wonderful family! Jesus wants us to talk to His Mother. Jesus wants us to pray for each other and with each other. Sure, a "personal" relationship with Christ will lead you to salvation. But in the mean time, why not try to get to know some of the family you will spend your eternity with?

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), November 06, 2002.