Help me re: Rosary

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Hello to all you wonderful people, I was faithfully saying the Rosary daily but have recently stopped and maybe say one or two a week. I do say Hail Marys and Our Fathers and do say other prayers to Mary. For some reason I find much more spiritual satisfaction from reading St. Alphonsus' books and prayers and affections from Preparation for Death and Passion and Death of Jesus and other books by Saints. Please let me know your opinion. I truly appreciate your responses. I use the 30 minutes travel time to my job to say my prayers. Thank you.

-- maryann (maryann.parker@citicorp.com), October 15, 2002

Answers

Maryann:

If you feel that you are not praying your Rosary well, it may help to pray in a different environment. I sometimes say my Rosary while driving, too, but there's only so much attention that can be paid to your prayers when you're behind the wheel. Even if you take the train/bus to work, there are lots of distractions.

There are plenty of little books that are a great help, too. I remember one called The Scriptural Rosary, which provided a Scripture verse for each Hail Mary. This could help keep you focused. I'm sure you can still find it in print.

-- jake (jake1@pngusa.net), October 15, 2002.


Here's a link. I hope it helps.

-- jake (jake1@pngusa.net), October 15, 2002.

MaryAnn,

Like Jake, I also have a recommendation for a scriptural Rosary book. This one ("From Genesis to Revelation: Seven Scriptural Rosaries") is by Christine Haapala. When I searched Amazon for "Scriptural Rosary," it gave me 16 books. Plenty to choose from.

Regarding your question, I'll just give my personal opinion. It sounds to me that you are being spiritually nourished by your readings. You're deepening your faith in a way that has its own benefits distinct from praying the Rosary.

In my opinion, spiritual reading is an alternative form of prayer. Your readings are allowing you to focus and meditate on Jesus. Ideally, readings complement but do not replace a healthy prayer life. Each fosters the other.

My last piece of advice: find a buddy or group and get a group together to pray the Rosary: once a week, once a month, whatever. Having someone to pray with is like having someone to go to the gym with.

That's it for me. Please say a prayer for me!

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), October 15, 2002.


Hi, Maryann - -

I just finished reading "The Story of A Soul" by St. Therese of Lisieux (the "Little Flower"). It might help you to know that "little Therese" confessed she often fell asleep during the Rosary! So you are certainly not alone.

I think the best advice is - relax, do the best you can, try some alternatives (example: how about just praying one of the mysteries a day, instead of all five, and spending more time on it?) - and remember, God just wants you to spend time with Him and His mother - however you can accomplish it is fine!

:-)

-- Christine L. (chris_tine_lehman@hotmail.com), October 15, 2002.


Thank you all so much for the time you took to answer my question. maryann

-- maryann (maryann.parker@citicorp.com), October 15, 2002.


maryann,

You might do well checking out St. Louis De Montfort's "Secrets of the Rosary." It is hands down one of the best books I have ever read on the Rosary, and a great "supplemental" spiritual read. He deals with every single modern day problem one might encounter praying the Rosary, despite his writing it so long ago. The problem of falling asleep, of wanting to rush through it, of not really meditating on the mysteries, etc. It is a very beautiful book, and I cannot recommend it enough. You can find it at tan books for a very modest price.

May Mary take you by the hand and lead you to Her Son.

God Bless

-- (seminarian@ziplip.com), October 15, 2002.


Bad link, let's try again:

Secret of the Rosary

God Bless

-- (seminarian@ziplip.com), October 15, 2002.


Dear Maryann,

I, too, have trouble saying the rosary. I have to force myself sometimes, not because I do not love Our Lady but it is hard for me to say repetitive prayers.

What has helped me is a rosary tape I purchased several years ago. I play it when driving and say the rosary along with the priest.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), October 15, 2002.


Dear Maryann & MaryLu {} I believe the reasons that you are having trouble praying the rosary is because God is dealing with your hearts to bring you to the Truth. MaryLu, you mention that it is hard to say repetitive prayers. Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. {} Why pray to Mary, when you can pray straight to God through Christ? Infact, Christ is the only way to God. 1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; {} John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. {} Look what Peter (the first pope?) said: Acts 10:25 - And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 - But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. {} Peter rejected worship - he did not accept it. {} Jesus Christ deserves all the glory, praise, and honor. Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {} Religion will not get anyone to Heaven, but the blood of Jesus Christ can save the darkest sinner! Praise God! Search the scriptures (read Romans 10) and Christ will show himself to you through His Word!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 16, 2002.

Eugene to thread

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 16, 2002.


Tim,

I will be sure to offer my Rosary (the new mysteries) for you tommorrow.

God Bless

-- (seminarian@ziplip.com), October 16, 2002.


Tim,

In regards to the vain repetition verse, Jesus was talking about the people who would loudly pray as to gain attraction (hence the VAIN). He was not telling us to avoid all standard praying. After all, He gave us the Lord's prayer.

As for praying directly to Jesus, we Catholics do this. However, there is nothing wrong with praying to those who are close to Jesus for their intercessions. Do you realize what the Rosary is? It is a contemplation of Jesus' life. Ask if you would like more detail or better yet, research the archives. There are plenty of threads on the Rosary, communion saints, and other subjects you touched on above.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 17, 2002.


Thank you Glenn for that beautiful response to Tim. I also wanted to add a few words.

Tim, you wrote, "Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. {} Why pray to Mary, when you can pray straight to God through Christ? Infact, Christ is the only way to God. 1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.."

The repetition of prayer is not wrong - it is VAIN repetition. We must remember that Jesus prayed THREE times to the Father to "let this cup pass" the night before his death!

And by asking for Mary's prayers (similar to me asking for you to pray for me), Jesus is STILL the ONE mediator between God and MAN. How, you might ask? Well, Mary brings our petitions before her Son, who will take them to God the Father. Thus, because Mary IS Man (human) and Jesus IS the mediator, there is still ONE mediation between man (Mary) and God through Jesus!!.

Therefore - if it is wrong to ask Mary for intersession based on the "one mediator" line, then it likewise is wrong to ask for your intersession. But because both you and Mary are human, and her prayers and yours MUST go through Jesus, then there is no breach in this Truth. The only argument that might (just might) hold water, is that, well, Mary died. But we know from scripture that communication with the dead is in fact plausible (Jesus spoke with TWO "dead" people at the Transfiguration). Moreover, petitions of the Saints have been asked and prayed since the very beginning of our Church (research the early Church of the 1st century, don't believe me), and many of these petitions have been answered in very miraculous ways. It is a tested and proven FACT (for the past 2000 years) that Prayers by the Saints on our behalf are heard and answered by God.

I would pose that any difficulty praying the Rosary is directly related to the Devils will that we not pray it for the precise fact that the Rosary is one of the MOST powerful prayers.

Therefore, do not give up on your prayers!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 17, 2002.


Hi, Jake

Nice to see you posting. Hope everything is going well with the new job.

We don't realy know if Mary died, Jake. It is possible, but than God must of brought her back to life on the way to Heaven. You are free to believe that The Blessed Mother died, but the Church doesn't teach that.

God bless you

David

-- David (David@excite.com), October 17, 2002.


Glenn -

Matthew 6:5 explains what you mentioned about "people who would loudly pray as to gain attraction" - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 6:7, I believe stating a different kind of praying people have done - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Vs. 6 want to be seen of mean, vs. 7 believe that repetition will allow them to be heard by God.

As for, "there is nothing wrong with praying to those who are close to Jesus for their intercessions." I do not find anyone that has died making intercession for us to God, except Christ.

I admit, I do not know all about the rosary, but I can't find Christ or His disciples teaching it in the scriptures. But, I have an open mind - if you can show me in scripture I will listen.

My plee is that if it is Christ alone who saves us through His blood unto salvation, why do we need to pray to Mary and/or the saints to allow God to bless us. If we have the blood of Jesus Christ covering our sin - we are perfect in God's eyes. Not because of we do not sin, but because He sees the blood of Christ and not our sin.

Jake -

It is true that Christ prayed 3 times for God to pass the cup from Him, but clearly that is not the same as the rosary. Even you must admit that. To compare it to the rosary, Christ would have had to pray for it multiple times every day all His life.

I disagree with, "And by asking for Mary's prayers (similar to me asking for you to pray for me), Jesus is STILL the ONE mediator between God and MAN."

There is a difference, note:

If you pray to Mary: man - Marry - Christ - God

If you pray or ask me to pray: man - Christ - God

Praying to Mary puts a mediator between man and Christ.

About, "Jesus spoke with TWO "dead" people at the Transfiguration", I believe is much different than intercession for man from the spirit realm. They did not make intercession for anyone or Christ at that time.

In reference to, "It is a tested and proven FACT (for the past 2000 years) that Prayers by the Saints on our behalf are heard and answered by God." This can not be proven or disproven by the mere answering of prayer. How can you say it was the prayer to the saints and not prayers directly to Christ?

As far as, "the Rosary is one of the MOST powerful prayers." I will have to refrain until I have been shown scripture.

David -

To your statement, "We don't realy know if Mary died, Jake. It is possible, but than God must of brought her back to life on the way to Heaven." Where do you get this teaching from? Scripture?

Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 17, 2002.



Tim,

Your same arguments have been dealt with ad nauseum by many a Catholic and Protestant preacher, priest, theologian, apologist, Church Father, etc.

You might do well to research the Rosary before making claims on the little information you have as you admittedly attested to.

I would recommend you go here as a start. Then you might go here to see what the Pope had to say with regard to the same accusations you are making.

Just as an aside, the way you are attacking the Rosary without the knowledge of it, would be like me posting on your favorite Protestant board attacking sola scriptura (Scripture alone) or sola fide (faith alone) by throwing a few bible quotes at you and leaving that as the extent of my research. If you are genuinely interested as to why Catholics pray the Rosary then God Bless you, but if you are just trying to pick a fight nothing really gets done that way.

God Bless

-- (seminarian@ziplip.com), October 17, 2002.


Thanks, I will take a look at the links you have presented here.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 17, 2002.

Hello Everyone!

I just wanted you all to know that I appreciate your debate. I became Catholic a few years ago before I got married. Since then, I have found God. I have many questions about my chosen 'religion.' This evening is the first time I have done any research.

Today a woman at work, who has always been Catholic, asked me if I knew why Catholics prayed the Rosary. She knows that I have a relationship with God and she has told me it makes her uncomforable sharing things (talking) because she knows how I feel about things... Anyway, she said she heard of a woman who daily prays the rosary at the same time every day. One of this woman's relatives was in a really, really bad accident, but no one was hurt. This accident occurred at the time this woman was praying the Rosary.

I told her I didn't know the official answer, but if the person has their focus and heart on God, while praying (the Rosary, in this instance) it is to give of their time to God. By praying the Rosary daily and making a commitment or vow to continue, they then are obeying God by doing so. God will reward the Faithful.

I will ask that you all pray for me to bring this woman closer to God. Thank you, everyone for your time and God Bless You.

Ginny

-- Ginny (ginny_liss@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.


Tim,

A couple of things for you to ponder after you have read about the Rosary.

First off, you asked me to show proof FROM the Bible (i.e. sola scriptura). I would like you to show me where in the Bible does it state that the Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth.

Second, your example of intercession was: If you pray to Mary: man - Marry - Christ - God

If you pray or ask me to pray: man - Christ - God

I believe you missed yourself in the second example. It should be: If you pray to Mary: man - Mary - Christ - God

If you ask me to pray: man - man - Christ - God

God Bless.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 18, 2002.


Glenn, Thanks! That was my point to Tim.

In actuality it looks like this:

man - Mary (another man / human) - Jesus (mediator) - God.

man - Tim (another man / human) - Jesus (mediator) - God.

Therefore - if we truncate the first "man" asking for intersession from the other "man" - it still is: man - Jesus - God. We don't equate Mary with Jesus! She is a non-divine human just like you and I, except that she is with God in heaven now!

Therefore the mediation by Christ Jesus between a human being, whether it is Mary or our friend Tim, and God is still maintained.

David - You are absolutely right about the Church teaching. What I meant was "the end of her earthly life", the point being that Mary is in heaven. Thanks again for that clarification.

Tim, you also wrote: "...but I can't find Christ or His disciples teaching it in the scriptures. But, I have an open mind - if you can show me in scripture I will listen."

Tim, it is a well known fact that the Rosary is not taught in its current form in the Scripture. We all know that. However, the composition of the Rosary is Scriptural. The Our Father is part of it (the Prayer that Jesus taught us). The Hail Mary is a prayer that derives from Scripture: The angel Gabriel when he came to Mary said - "Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with you". Elizabeth upon the arrival of Mary said - "Blessed art though among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." We simply add, "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." And we don't know that the Apostles didn't ask for Mary's intersession. Just because it isn't in the Bible, doesn't mean it wasn't taught!

John in several of the Chapters of his Gospel says (paraphrased) "I don't want to waste ink, I'd rather speak to you face to face." Paul also says this a few times.

An added reminder is that the last books (besides for John's Revelation) of the NT are LETTERS! They were never meant to be "found" and compiled with the OT (which they were using as Scripture back then). The LETTERS that Paul wrote were simply reminders to the early Church of what they should be doing, that is - Paul is being told of some of the confusions that the early Churches are dealing with, and he is writing to them as a counselor. These letters do not embody the entire belief or faith. And even if they were, we only have a handful of Paul’s letters. What happened to the rest of them?

Speaking of Paul’s letters: It is interesting to read in 1 Cor. Paul scolding the Corinths for mistreating the Lords Supper. It is as clear as day! If you eat and drink the Lords Supper unworthily, you eat and drink condemnation on yourself! If this were merely bread and wine, would our Lord be so cruel as to actually bring death and sickness (as described in the letter) upon those of Corinth that were doing this. Even so, why is it that most Protestant churches don't even commemorate the Lords supper (not even with unconsecrated bread!)? It is so clear that the early Church did commemorate the Lords Supper, otherwise Paul wouldn't have written this. And yet they claim that they are "reforming" and bringing the early Church - which was so badly corrupted by the Catholics?? - back to its origin. If this is true, than what happen to the Lords Supper? "As long as you eat my Body and Drink my Blood, you proclaim my death..."

Back on track - I hope that all of us realize that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus was never intended to be written down. Jesus, as far as we know, wrote nothing! If He did, it isn't in the Bible! And as I showed before, the Apostles didn't want to write everything down either. They would have preferred to speak it out face to face with their disciples - that way if there was confusion they could reword their statements so that it was better understood.

Furthermore - the OT and early letters and Gospel writings were written on very perishable material (papyrus - sp?). And it is apparent that they, the writers, did NOT intend that the Church rely heavily on the written Word, but rather that they would listen and be taught through the COMPLETE oral tradition and Word!

It is of much benefit to research on the origin of the Bible (I just bought a great book on this), and it helps to know because one may see more clearly the intent and meaning of the Bible!

Anyway - thanks all for reading this lengthy letter.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 18, 2002.


ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome Code: ZE02101607 Date: 2002-10-16

John Paul II Answers Rosary's Critics

A Devotion Directed to the Christological Center of the Faith

VATICAN CITY, OCT. 16, 2002 (Zenit.org).- In his newest apostolic letter, John Paul II responds to the criticisms made against the rosary in some Catholic circles over the past four decades.

In No. 4 of "Rosarium Virginis Mariae" (The Rosary of the Virgin Mary), the Pope writes that there "are some who think that the centrality of the Liturgy, rightly stressed by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, necessarily entails giving less importance to the Rosary."

"Yet, as Pope Paul VI made clear, not only does this prayer not conflict with the Liturgy, it sustains it, since it serves as an excellent introduction and a faithful echo of the Liturgy, enabling people to participate fully and interiorly in it and to reap its fruits in their daily lives," the Holy Father says.

According to the Pope, others "fear that the Rosary is somehow unecumenical because of its distinctly Marian character."

"Yet the Rosary clearly belongs to the kind of veneration of the Mother of God described by the Council: a devotion directed to the Christological center of the Christian faith, in such a way that when the Mother is honored, the Son ... is duly known, loved and glorified," the letter says.

"If properly revitalized, the Rosary is an aid and certainly not a hindrance to ecumenism!" the Pope stresses.

"But the most important reason for strongly encouraging the practice of the Rosary is that it represents a most effective means of fostering among the faithful that commitment to the contemplation of the Christian mystery," John Paul II concludes in No. 5 of the apostolic letter.

"Inasmuch as contemporary culture, even amid so many indications to the contrary, has witnessed the flowering of a new call for spirituality, due also to the influence of other religions, it is more urgent than ever that our Christian communities should become 'genuine schools of prayer,'" the Pope adds.

However, in order to understand the rosary in this way, the Pontiff told the pilgrims gathered today in St. Peter's Square, it must be prayed "with devotion and not mechanically," as a "meditation of the mysteries of the life and work of Christ."

Maryann, please continue to pray the rosary and ask for Her guideance this month. The month of October is dedicated to the rosary.

Peace

-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), October 18, 2002.


As promised to Emerald, I will indeed take a look that the sites that he has given.

In defense of my words to Glenn -

Scripture: 1 Timothy 3:16-17

Intercession:

If we Pray to Mary to Ask her to make intercession to Jesus Christ, it creates an extra mediator:

Man - Marry - Jesus Christ - God

If we ask a friend to pray for something for us, we are not praying to them.

Man - Jesus Christ - God

I believe if Mary were alive today [I mean here on earth, and not in Heaven] she would indeed pray for and with people, even as we pray for the sick and the ones gone astray. But, we wouldn't pray to her to do so.

As to Jake -

Granted, the words that are used in the rosary, are contained in multiple places in the scriptures, but not prayed by the disciples or commanded by anyone to be prayed.

As for, "And we don't know that the Apostles didn't ask for Mary's intersession." - They walked and were taught by Christ, there was no need for Mary to plee for them before Christ.

"why is it that most Protestant churches don't even commemorate the Lords supper" - I don't know why? But, I don't believe that it has to be every Sunday either - He did not give us a set amount of times. He said, "As often as ye..."

"And it is apparent that they, the writers, did NOT intend that the Church rely heavily on the written Word, but rather that they would listen and be taught through the COMPLETE oral tradition and Word!"

What would we have without the scriptures then? How would we perform 2 Timothy 2:15 [Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.]

2 Peter 1:19-21; we see that the scriptures "a more sure word of prophecy" than God speaking from Heaven [17,18]

Still, if you claim "I hope that all of us realize that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus was never intended to be written down" - then we would be at the mercy of the Teachers and not have anyway to discern whether what was lie and what was truth.

How would be discern the false teachers - the teachers that didn't agree with us???

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 18, 2002.


I have a similiar problem with saying the rosary especially when there is some turmoil going on in my life. My sister (who can say numerous daily) commented that it could indicate a resistance to "mother", i.e., unresolved anger at your own mother. It is very frustrating and disappointing to me because I know I am missing out on so much. I read one of St. Louis Monfort's book & it just depressed me. I am praying that I can get past whatever block I seem to have. Has anyone ever heard anything like that before? (I actually found your post trying to research it online)

Liz

-- Liz Zouvelos (zouvelos@msn.com), October 20, 2002.


Liz

When we have turmoil in our life is when we need more than ever to cleave to Christ for assurance.

Although I do not agree with the rosary, I'm sure many will agree that when we find ourselves going through troubles we need to look to Jesus Christ for help. Not just in times of trouble but all times.

I would suggest that you pray and ask God to work in your life to show you where you need work in serving Him and ask Him to help you over come them.

We all have sins and problems that need to be corrected, and these keep us from having that personal relationship with Christ. What we have to do is come back to Christ to strengthen that relationship. He will help you and give you peace. Just trust in Him!

God Bless!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 20, 2002.


Liz,

The Rosary is both a weapon and a crown of roses, a means for sanctification, and a means of peace. We meditate on the mysteries of Christ's life, and come to understand those mysteries through Mary, the Mother of God. Just as Christ was born through Her, so too do we honor Christ through Her. She is a gentle Mother and excellent catechist, a perfect woman and beautiful saint. It is possible that your view towards your own mother is effecting your relationship with Mary, but I don't think that it is purely that alone. You want to please Her, because in pleasing Her, you please Her Son, this is great, it is a first step. The desire to pray is prayer itself, being open to the Will of God, and what the Holy Spirit has inspired you to do, "for we do not know how to pray as we ought."

When you read St. Louis De Montfort don't grow depressed, but rather, take that depression and tell Mary that you desire the same simple love St. Louis had for Our Mother. Just as an aside, Tim you might like his Christological approach to Mary, to Christ through Mary. Rich in biblical explanations and examples of how other Mothers in the past have done the same for their children.

Liz devotion to Our Lady takes some time to develop, but when it does you will overflow with love for Christ, for you don't meet the Mother without meeting the Son, nor do you meet the Son without meeting His Mother. Countless saints through devotion to Our Lady have become saints due to that same devotion. They found comfort in Her warm embrace, and peace in Her gentle voice.

If you have trouble with this devotion start at the beginning, when Christ was born. Reflect on the Annunciation of the Angel Gabriel, and pay close to attention to Her humble response. Than reflect on Her Christian charity when She visited Her cousin Elizabeth, and how John leaped in Her womb ectatic over the bearer of Christ. Than spend a long time reflecting on the Nativity, the birth of Our Lord, and think about Mary and Joseph and the Sheperds in the filthy cave adoring Our Lord, the first exposition, as it were. And learn by Her example how to humbly kneel in silent adoration and overflowing love adoring Christ. Afterwards, reflect on how being so humble She obediently presented Christ in the temple, only to learn the "fate" of Christ and how Her own heart "would be pierced." Finally, think about your Mother and what would happen if you were gone for three days, than reflect on the same anguish Mary must have felt "losing" Her child for those three days. Read those passages in the Scriptures, particularly in Matthew and Luke, and just reflect on that. Maybe offer, just to start, an Our Father, a Hail Mary, and Glory Be after each reflection. Don't rush yourself, let yourself grow in the Rosary, and eventully immerse yourself in it. Remember one Our Father, Hail Mary, or Glory Be said reveretly is better than 10 of the same done haphazardly and in a rush.

Take your time, and let Mary teach you, for She is your Mother and wants only what's best for you.

May Mary hold you in Her gentle arms and bring you to Christ.

God Bless

-- (seminarian@ziplip.com), October 20, 2002.


Tim,

Regarding "vain repetition," you might want to read Psalm 136. The psalm repeats this truth in every verse: "God's love endures forever."

For more info, see The Rosary at Catholic.com.

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), October 21, 2002.


Tim,

You wrote: "What would we have without the scriptures then?"

Well, I can't say much for the Protestant churches, but the Catholic Church has the Magisterium, as well as Sacred Tradition.

"How would we perform 2 Timothy 2:15 [Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.]"

To study doesn't necessarily mean study written words. When I go to school, like when I go to Mass, I study what my teachers teach me. The early Church (like in the first century) didn't have the New Testament! Timothy couldn't have been talking about the Bible as we know it today!

"2 Peter 1:19-21; we see that the scriptures "a more sure word of prophecy" than God speaking from Heaven [17,18]".

Yet a still MORE sure word of prophecy was from the mouths of those prophecying. Like when John and Paul say "I have much more to say, but I'd rather NOT write it down.."

Tim, you continue, "Still, if you claim "I hope that all of us realize that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus was never intended to be written down" - then we would be at the mercy of the Teachers and not have anyway to discern whether what was lie and what was truth.

How would be discern the false teachers - the teachers that didn't agree with us???"

The exact same thing can be said about the Bible, Tim. How can we be sure that the Bible was translated correctly?! In fact, before the printing press, it was Catholic Monks who translated the entire Bible by hand. If just one of those Monks was lazy and left out just one phraze, then the Book you have in your home might be inacurate. Then what? Well, after the reformation indeed this is what happend. Seven books were left out! And in addition to this, a few of the remaining books were tapered to fit the Protestant theology. That is, in one instance, the word "only" was slipped in to one passage to tailor to the Sola Scriptura theory.

The Catholic Church on the other hand, has to have the correct copy! Why? Because we have the early Church teachings and writings, as well as Church Tradition which must coincide with Scripture. Therefore, while other "churches" rely solely on the Bible - which in and of itslef could indeed be tainted by man, the Catholic Church has three levels of "checks and balances" so to speak: The Bible, The Magisterium (Teachings of the Church) AND Sacred Tradition.

I hope that this is helpful.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 21, 2002.


Jake -

Why I believe that the Bible is the sure word of God, regardless that God used men to write it:

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

2ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

2ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 21, 2002.


Thanks Tim! I too know that the Bible is the sure word of God. However, to be sure that you understand, there are currently two (2) versions (not to be confused with translations) of the Bible out there: 1) the Catholic Bible and 2) the Protestant Bible. Both have several books that are exactly the same, but as mentioned before, the Catholic Bible was tampered with during the Protestant Reformation leaving several tainted versions in its wake. It would be very benneficial for you to research the origin and compilation of the Sacred Scripture in order to understand which one indeed was that promised true version spoken of in your quotations.

That being said, I would like to toss out to you some Scriptural references to how the Holy Spirit was also to preserve the Oral Tradition (which is how the Catholic Church is able to place it's faith also in Tradition and the Magisterium despite the fact that it was spoken and recorde by mere man).

John 14:25, 16:12. "I have said these things to you while I am still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you." "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

Matthew 10:19. "When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you at that time; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you."

Luke 21:14. "So make up your minds not to prepare your defence in advance; for I will give you words and a wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to withstand or contradict."

And to end... Jesus said unto his Apostles, "As the Father has sent Me, so I send you." And we know that Jesus went about preaching, that is speaking the Gospel and not writing it down. Thus, we know that the apostles were likewise to preach the Gospel. So, the Catholic Church is sure in her knowledge that the Spirit of Truth will guide her not only in the Scripture, but likewise in the Sacred Tradition and Magisterium, which has been handed down as promised through apostolic succession!

Have a wonderful night - and may God bless all of your sleep. I will see you guys tomorrow.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 22, 2002.


Jake, I see your point.

Do I assume that you make refrence to the Apocrypha?

True, I believe that is why it is in the middle (between the old and new testament) in the KJV 1611. That they didn't consider it the actually Bible as the new and old testaments as we know them.

But, I do agree with you that it is the Spirit of Truth that leads us to the knowledge of God - even if we read the scripture everyday - we could not understand it without His guidance.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

As a note: I have recently purchased some books on the history of the Bible, and plan to do a slow study of the information once I get it all.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 22, 2002.


Tim, you asked:

"Do I assume that you make refrence to the Apocrypha?"

It is key that you understand that the Protestant's definition of Apocrypha is different than that of the Catholics. Remember that the Catholics were the ones who actually compiled the books of the Bible, and were the ones who made the decision about which ones were "inspired" or not, in the 6th century. The ones that were found to be not inspired, or questionable historically, were called the Apocrypha. Actually there was another word used for some of the OT books, which the Jews didn't use. When the Protestant Reformation began, in the 16th century, around 10 centuries later, they decided that the Bible, which had existed in its current form for 1000 years, was not correct. Therefore, the Protestants of that time tossed out seven books of the Bible and deemed them Apocrypha, along with the books the Catholics had already stamped out in the 6th century! Apparently they claim that these books contradict the rest of scripture, but, call me simple minded, Uh - it slipped by 1000 years of great minds and all of a sudden, BAM it is clear as day. Hmmm. To officially seal this heresy, the Counsel of Trent (I believe – John G would probably be able to confirm) in 1545 or so made clear that the books that the Protestants were trying to oust, were indeed inspired. But aside from those seven books, as I had mentioned, there are a few other books which were either reduced or expanded.

I am glad that you are researching that history of the Bible! I too have a book on the origin of our Scripture. But to be sure that you are getting the correct story, I would suggest trying some Catholic sources as well – just to make sure you aren’t getting a biased opinion.

And I am equally glad that you noted "even if we read the scripture everyday - we could not understand it without His guidance." Because it is Scripturally noted that many would claim to have the Holy Spirit, but would not. And this is a huge problem with the Protestant notion of individual interpretation. Ask any one of the millions of ministers of each and every one of the thousand denominations of the Christian Faith who hold different views if they are inspired by the Holy Spirit and the answer is always the same: Yes! But if it be true that all of these millions of ministers are filled with the Holy Spirit - then God contradicts himself, because they all have different interpretations. The Scripture is not always clear, and how are we to know who to believe? Well Christ said that he would be with his Church, but which Church is his? There's the Lutherans, Presbatyrians, Evangelical, Pentacostal, Catholic... Which one is it?

Once you start to ask yourself, "where did my minister get his interpretation from", then you start to research the history of the denomination you belong to. And you get back far enough and you begin to see that the history of all Protestant denoms. is cut off at the turn of the 16th century! You look a little further and you’re into the Catholic Church. A tad further and you begin to read some of the Church Fathers interpretations, and before you know it, WOW!, their interpretation is exactly how the Catholic Church interprets it now, today.

I am joyful, Tim, that you are beginning to understand some of this. Because it is frustrating to see so many stray individuals who take the words of their pastor for truth. But for all we know, the pastor could be telling them that Scripturally Christ was a woman, and here's the passage to prove it... dah dah dah. All depending on ones interpretation...? And when a group of like-minded individuals comes together, all of a sudden there is another church, and another stumbling block for those who are searching for the Truth! It is heartbreaking, because they really have nowhere else to go. If they have a question, there is no Church authority, save the pastor who could be a loony. In the Catholic Church we have the Pope who is the authority, and aside from him we have the Teachings of the Church, which, if one does their homework, can be traced back to Peter! There are libraries and libraries full of Catholic Doctrine and teachings and references and history, ahhh its so rich with Truth. If you go to the local Evangelical church and ask the pastor the roots of his church you might be set up for a surprise. All their history leads back to some individual who had a bright idea of how the Church needed reform... You enter your local Catholic Church and you'll be told that it all began with Christ, who built his Church on Peter!

May God bless you in your journey home, Tim.

In Christ.



-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 22, 2002.


Jmj

You are on a roll, Jake. You and Glenn and Mateo are really teaching Tim well!

I have two things to follow up on:

(1) Glenn said, "First off, [Tim,] you asked me to show proof FROM the Bible (i.e. sola scriptura). I would like you to show me where in the Bible does it state that the Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth."
In response, Tim said, "In defense of my words to Glenn - Scripture: 1 Timothy 3:16-17"

Sorry, Tim, but that is not a valid response to Glenn. It doesn't answer his question. Your verses from 1 Tim 3 say: "16: All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17: that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Take a close look. The verses tell us about some characteristics of scripture, but they do not say that scripture is the "SOLE SOURCE of spiritual truth" (which is what Glenn asked about). Tim, you are going to find that NOWHERE does the Bible say that it is the "sole source of spiritual truth." The reason it does not say so is because it is NOT the sole source! [By the way, if you want to insist that 1 Tim 3:16-17 proves something about "sole source," you would be proving more than you really want to -- because you would be saying that the Old Testament is the "sole source" of spiritual truth. It was the Old -- and not the New Testament -- that St. Paul was referring to when he wrote those words. We know this by looking at the previous two verses: "14: But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15: and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."
The "sacred writings" with which St. Timothy was "acquainted" "from childhoold" were the Jewish scriptures.

(2) The other matter has to do with your misunderstanding of Catholic intercessory prayer. You rejected the "man-man-Jesus-God / man-Mary-Jesus-God" progression offered by two Catholics. You stated: "If we pray to Mary to ask her to make intercession to Jesus Christ, it creates an extra mediator: Man - Marry - Jesus Christ - God
"If we ask a friend to pray for something for us, we are not praying to them. Man - Jesus Christ - God"

No, Tim. Your words in the first sentence, "pray to Mary," are equivalent to your words in the second sentence, "ask a friend." An old meaning of the word "pray" -- the meaning we intend in this case -- is "ask, request." Don't make the mistake of thinking that "pray" means "worship, adore."

Mary is an intercessor for us with Jesus, not a mediator with the Father. Thus, when we ASK our heavenly mother Mary to join us in praying to Jesus, we do something very similar to what we do when we ASK our earthly mothers to join us in praying to Jesus. Countless Protestants like you have come to understand this, and it has helped them to convert to Catholicism -- or at least to begin to pray through Mary and the saints. They are also helped by reading what St. James wrote: "The prayer of a righteous person has great power in its effects." [Thus, the intercessory prayers of Mary (and the other saints whose souls are with God) do indeed have great power in their effects.]

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 26, 2002.


John

I moved my answer to a new question:

scripture - taken from "Help me re: Rosary"

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 27, 2002.


I haven't read this entire thread so apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but Pope John Paul II has dedicated the next 12 months as the 'Year of the Rosary' - from October 2002 to October 2003.

Why would the Pope make this dedication for the next 12 months? Why would he consecrate the same timeframe in his papacy - the next 12 months - under the protection of Our Lady?

Why the Rosary? Why Mary?

I believe the true test of a person's sanctity is their humility. I believe a humble person is a great person - a saint. And the greater the humility, the greater the sanctity. I believe many people find Marion devotion so utterly challenging because of its call to humility -- how can we are called to honour, and ask help from, a 'Mother' - a woman - in fact just a simple girl from Nazareth.

But this simple girl of Nazareth, coneived without sin, gave the world its Saviour. Not so simple. God, Who is perfect, must have seen a spectacular kind of perfection in this plan of salvation.

I believe the power of the Rosary lies in its simplicity and humility. I believe it has awesome value as a meditative and contemplative tool for the mysteries of Christ's life. For those who denigrate it as repetetitive, I would say they haven't taken seriously St Theresa of Avila's assertion that 'mental prayer' is so essential for our sanctification.

If Satan is complexity, chaos, pride and disorder - then God is simplicity, humility and order (routine). The rosary - and respect for the Mother of God - strike me as having these attributes of God. No wonder Satan cannot stand the thought that he will be crushed by such humility, simplicity and docility as Mary and the rosary.

For those having trouble praying the rosary, I would actually suggest saying fewer rosaries at first, but taking longer to pray them. In our busy world today, discover what meditation and contemplation are. Not paganistic meditation which is often just a focus on your 'breathing', but the real stuff - the kind of mediation that is life and food for your soul, spiritual merit, the kind that Jesus did with His Father when He 'went to a quiet place to pray'.

And most importantly, if you're having trouble, ask Mary to reveal the way of the rosary to you. Trust me, there is no one better to reveal to you the sublimeness - and perfect simplicity - of God than She who followed Her Son in every step of His life.

-- (Christian@app.com), October 27, 2002.


John,

Thanks for your post. I missed Tim's response to my question and of course, you answered him perfectly.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 27, 2002.


John and Glenn

I posted my answer to John with a question:

scripture - taken from "Help me re: Rosary" (Tim, 2002-10-27)

God Bless...

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 27, 2002.


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