Hi everyone, How can I respond to non-Catholic who doesn't believe in purgatory and thinks when saints appear on earth it is the devil? thank you

-- maryann (maryann.parker@citicorp.com), October 09, 2002

Answers

I understand where your non-Catholic friend is coming from as I used to believe the same thing. Perhaps you could remind him of Jesus' question, when the Pharisees accused him of casting out demons by the power of Satan -- "Can a house divided against itself stand?"

Whenever there's been a legitimate appearance of a saint to someone on earth, the end result is that the person(s) who sees them becomes more devout and closer to Jesus Christ. Would that be something that Satan would want encourage?

Love, Christine :-)

-- Christine L. (chris_tine_lehman@hotmail.com), October 09, 2002.

Maryann:
Let the non-Catholic answer you--

Upon whose a authority do these questions really rest? We know them to be true when the Church which Christ founded on earth has given her judgment. It isn't given to me and you to say.

The non- Catholic won't admit that; but ultimately there is the true answer. We have an obligation as faithful Catholics to teach first of all who has legitimate teaching authority. Most non-Catholics will quickly appeal to the Bible. But they can't object to the Church's authority because the Bible clearly teaches us about it. It's important to steer any conversation toward this. You can prove from the scriptures 1.) Peter is the first Pope. 2.) Rome is a HOLY city from the beginning. 3.) Every single bishop of Rome has been Pope, in an unbroken succession from Peter, whom Jesus Christ selected to be leader of His apostles and His Church. It's in the Bible!

Many historical proofs exist proving Catholic saints were entombed in the Roman catacombs, since many were martyred in Rome. --In Saint Paul's epistle to the Romans, 1st chapter he states very gratefully that the faith of the Roman church was famous throughout the civilized world. Nothing has changed about that. --She is still the Catholic Church!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), October 09, 2002.

--up /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), October 09, 2002.

Maryann,
For ideas on what to tell your acquaintance about purgatory, I suggest that you read some of our old threads listed on this page.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 09, 2002.

Maryann,

I have to agree with Eugene. I've tried for years to try to "debate" (nice way of saying "argue") with Protestants about what they viewed as erroneous teachings. It seems too often that the recommended approach is to try to find biblical passages that back up the Catholic view. Although it is good for us Catholics to be aware of the biblical basis of the Catholic teachings, this will hardly ever win over a Protestant (only Jn 6 regarding the Eurachrist - truly, truly I say to you, you must eat my flesh and drink my blood if you will life within you - has ever won over a Protestant in my encounters).

What I have found to be very effective though is to get off the defensive and turn the tables. I state what I believe and why I believe it. The Catholic faith is truly logical and makes a heck of a lot more sense than any of the Protestants denominations when looked upon as a whole.

So my response now (and advice to others who ask me) is to state that I am Catholic. I believe this is the Church founded by Christ and protected by the Holy Spirit (see Mt 16:18) to both continue the revelation of Christ and to extend His grace to all ages until He comes again.

Jesus came to: - save us from sin - reveal to us who God is and who man is - to found a Church (NOT write a Bible!) to extend this salvation (via Sacraments) and revelation to all ages.

It is through the Catholic Church that I can infallibly (without error) know the teachings of Christ and all that is needed for my salvation along with the grace (from the Sacraments) to know and live this Truth.

Then from this follows what Eugene states. If he Church teaches it, I believe it. For to obstinately doubt or disbelieve anything that Holy Mother Church holds for us to believe would be to disbelieve Christ Himself.

You then follow with what exactly the Church teaches on a given matter and the quotes from Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition (usually the Fathers of the Church are quoted) that are used when the Church teaches on the topic being discussed.

Then you turn it around. You say that this way of thinking makes a lot more sense than Protestantism (Evangelicals and "non- denominationalists fall in this category whether they accept the label or not). They base their belief on the principles of "sola fide" (by faith alone one is saved) and "sola scriptura" (scripture - or the Bible - alone), NEITHER of which are biblical!

Jesus never taught that the Bible alone was sufficient to continue his revelation on matters of faith and morals to all ages. None of his apostles taught this, nor any of the other New Testament authors. It can't be found in the Bible. Nor did any of the Church Fathers or early Christians teach or believe this. This is a relatively new concept created by Martin Luther, who broke his vows to celibacy and left the Church created by Christ. This Church Luther left had the promise of Christ given to Peter (and his successors): the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I can find nowhere in the Bible where Jesus promised this to Luther or his followers/successors. Why do I want to risk my salvation on anything but the teachings of the Church founded by Christ?

Then, if you want to "pile on" (alone in Christian charity though ;-) you can add the following: Sola fide is also contradicted by the teachings of Christ when He teaches on the last judgement in Mt. 25:31ff.

The reason I could never be Protestant is that the Catholics take the Scriptures literally and Protestants don't. Yes, the Protestants claim to, but on the most serious matters, they don't. Go back to Mt. 25:31ff. Catholics agree with St. Paul that by grace we are saved (without the grace of Jesus Christ, no one can be saved), but our works certainly play a factor in our final judgement as Jesus clearly teaches. The Protestants don't take the Scriptures literally.

But even more, let's look at Jesus' teaching on the Eucharist. In John 6:31ff Jesus clearly states: Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus lost many of his followers that day because they did not take him literally. Jesus would not have let them leave if he really was not speaking literally. I, personally, am not going to join those who left Him that day. I'm going to take Him literally. And what is the only Christian denomination that truly believes they eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus - not symbolically, but truly! Us Catholics!

Then conclude (in all sincerity and Christian charity) with: You may not agree with me, but you have to admit that my belief makes a lot a sense. I'm not chancing it on anything else but the Catholic faith. And I'll pray that one day you too can enjoy this love and conviction and peace that I have in being a Catholic.

Sorry for being long-winded, but I hope this helps. God bless!

-- Hollis (catholic@martinsen.com), October 10, 2002.