Just a short note to thank everybody for the concern and support with my personal issues. It's 2:30am and I'm still up so I thought I'd just log on. I have a few personal e-mails to answer tomorrow-you know who you are. LOL I took a job about 20 mile from home. I'm working 10 hr shifts 10am-8pm, so by the time I get home at night around 8:45 I'm beat. It's hell to get old.:( I sold about 30 ducks & all but 2 of my roosters. I'm still debating if I'm going to sell the geese, I like those mean little devils. I was and to some degree still am down about our house in WI. As of Oct 1 we have owned it for 19 yrs and last week our son called and asked to buy it on a creative financing contract. Basically he wants it for free until 2015 when he'd pay a balloon payment of just 14,000. His reasoning is since he's an only child when I die he'll get it anyway and they(he's married) would like to start homesteading now. I'm a soft touch and don't want to have any bad feelings so I reluctantly agreed but told him we'd have to contact a lawyer before any firm commitments could be made. I love that house and land and there's a part of me that will always think of that as home. I don't want to be greedy(I'm not living in it now so it's sitting empty) and feel bad about saying no but we've had some bad experiences with them fulfilling their commitments before-we rented them a house and they trashed it and left us with the clean up expense. They have gone to two different colleges in the last yr and a half and are now talking about transferring again. Neither wants to work and expects things that it took us 20 yrs to achieve. I don't understand their thinking, I know for sure Cody wasn't raised that way-Tom & I always worked outside jobs for what we got/wanted plus had the farm to work as well. He was raised with a good work ethic but somewhere along the line he decided that there was an easier way to get by. So maybe this gives you some idea of what I've been dealing with. I always had hopes of someday going back to WI and this has just threw me for a loop. I guess in my mind once I no longer have the place up north, then I'm truly stuck in KY for the remainder of my life, and although I'm making the best of it here, this is not where I would prefer to spend the rest of my life. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to keep the peace and keep my old place at the same time. I don't believe and neither does Tom that we will ever see the money in 12 yrs( which is just the value of the land)-the current tax appraisal is 87,000. I love my kid but we've put out so much time and money to help them out and it never seems to be enough. Thanks for listening. Have a good night.

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), October 05, 2002

Answers

Talk to a estate planner/lawyer/accountant and I am sure they will have an answer for you, you can not afford (for finacial/estate planning and tax reasons) to give it away. Having that WI home, is a very important thing to have, hang onto it, incorporate it into your finanical/estate planning and maximize the benefits it offers you.

-- BC (desertdewller@yahoo.com), October 05, 2002.

Kathy , I don't like sounding negative, but I think in the long term , (sometimes).Your son who is married could end up in a divorce at some time in the near or distant future. Divorce rates are at an all time high...If he hasn't mastered the art of stability in his life, the school transfers , and the not working , his married could lack stability that you and Tom are unaware of. I bet he and his wife turn out to be good workers $, they're probably just late bloomers and still searching for identity.It's pretty common.

If the house is in your sons name , it's also in his wifes name. You might be more secure just to keep it in your and Toms name , and let them live there. And make them keep it up and even make improvements.This way it doesn't get trashed too bad .Make a living will or trust , so it's in their name in a way , and you have the option of changing the will if they ever get divorced.

I probably shouldn't even give an opinion on this.I don't have any experience on this matter . I had no problems with disputes over properties or valuables when I split with my wife. We even remain friends. But I believe this is unusual in a split up of marriage.

To bad I cound't talk with your son ,I'm always the one who gets the kids in line in my extended family.My extended family members who have problems with their children as far as working or going to school always tell them ," You don't want to become like uncle Steve , do you " this always seems to get the kids straightened out real fast.

-- Steve (unreal@home.com), October 05, 2002.

Kathy, is there anyway you can make sure he is paying taxes and insurance? I would truly hate to see the tax man get the property because he didn't pay a $1000 tax bill. Perhaps he IS older now than when he was when he blew it earlier, but I would truly hate to see you loose a beloved property because it turns out that he isn't as reliable as he thinks he will be.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), October 05, 2002.

Or, can they rent with option to buy? You can set the rent as low as you like, set the price at whatever you wish in X number of years.

Personally, to have 0 payments for years seems like too sweet a deal for young people. You do want them to know how the world works, and even a rent (or payment) of $150 a month is, I suspect, better for THEM than having it to live in for nothing.

Besides, you always value more what you have to work for.

When my parents wanted to help my siblings get a start in life, they set the rent at 50% of their income, (Calif. housing costs are horrendous, this was a REAL break!) with the understanding that anything not needed for housing-related expenses would be invested for them, and they would receive it when they moved out.

In your case, you could take out taxes, insurance, and repair costs and buy savings bonds with the rest. Just make sure the savings bonds have your sons name on them and not yours, or he will have to pay taxes on them when you turn them over to him in however many years you agree on. That way you KNOW the necessary bills are paid and your son gets back with interest any extra money.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), October 05, 2002.

Please keep sharing your opinions rather you have kids or not-nothing beats hearing how others view a situation to make things clearer. Steve, as you said he's very swayed by Jess's views so now he feels the world owes him a living too. He was never in trouble with the law or anything but he was always a stubborn, headstrong kid even before meeting her. It just seems that they are feeding each others' desire to have the whole world at their feet. They have been married less than 2 yrs and have loud,abusive(verbal) arguments, so the thought of them splitting up is very much a possibility.

The home they trashed was just a yr ago and they have changed schools & quit 4 jobs since then. I really think they will live there until the taxes get so behind then they will just move on letting the county taxman get it. The taxes are $1587 for 2002 and they have been going up about 13% each year. If you don't want to work it will be hard to pay that tax bill as well as utilities, gas, auto & home repairs, insurance,food, etc. The house is in just mine & Toms' names.

I just found out they have 'skipped' out on utilities in two states, she had a car re-poed before they married and he has an outstanding $15,000 med bill and they are thinking of filing bankruptcy. Now if they have that house in their name free and clear won't it be sold to pay off their debts? Also the balloon payment that's supposed to be paid to us in 12 yrs, wouldn't that also be cleared if they file backruptcy? So in the end we'd lose the house & the 'promise' of the money due in 12 yrs, if I remember anything about the bankruptcy laws.

Tom & I spoke this morning and at this point we're thinking maybe this is not a good thing to get into. Up to this point we had turned down every offer that had come our way to sell that property. With the economy so unstable if the bottom falls out we'd still it as an asset, but once we sign it over then it's out of our control. The idea of letting them just live there would work for most families but I know what type of family members she has and I don't want to be held liable for any injuries or pulled in the middle of a money grabbing lawsuit due to some of her family or their friends going there and getting hurt by the animals they plan on having or getting drunk and tangled in the barbed wire fences. I know it sounds extreme but some of her family already have sued country neighbors for injuries.

I will keep watching for your insights and thank you all for trying to help me see this more clearly. I never thought that having just one child could still end up causing so much consternation over an inheritance. I always figured I'd be dead and then he'd get it and I wouldn't be around to see all we'd worked so hard for go down the drain.

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), October 05, 2002.

This may be a little harsh, but what makes a kid think they are entitled to an inheritance. What you and your husband have is yours, not your kid's and if you chose you may leave him something, or you may not, you don't have to and many people chose not to. I've know too many trust fund babies and the vast majority have been worthless.

I've heard the story too many time, when I get my inheritance I'll be set, seems like that is all some people are living for, for those people I hope their parents outlive them.

There are a number of ways that they can lose the house and land, taking out a loan on it and never paying it back, back taxes is a bit harder but can happen.

One benefit you could lose is the take sheltering if you sell your primary residence and then move back to this property, that could be a substantial amount of money lost which is why I suggested an accountant/estate planner-lawyer.

You could always make a pre-move in condition, like get a job and clear up your debts and then we will look at this matter again.

-- BC (desertdewller@yahoo.com), October 05, 2002.

I can only imagine how painful this all must be for you, Kathy, but I hafta agree with BC. It sounds like you already know the right answer if you listen to your intuition. I do not think you would actually be doing your son a favor by giving him a chance to disappoint his parents and himself once again. A kid needs to learn that he has the power within himself to prosper, and he cannot learn that when protected indefinitely from the need to do so.

You did your job as a parent, did the best job you knew how, and I don't think part of the agreement is babysitting our adult children. He and his wife have treated you with disrespect by trashing the house, and I don't think they should be invited to abuse your goodwill again.They have to learn to fly or fail on their own, and we have to let them go. I hope that doesn't sound cavalier; I can only guess at how difficult it is for you. You deserve to be happy, and live your life to please yourselves.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), October 05, 2002.

Well, it's been settled. I guess we've lost a son in the process but if all we were was a money machine we'd lost him already. Tom called him this evening and explained the concerns we had about their ability to keep up the taxes,repairs,debt load,etc and the were met with 'you guys just don't care what happens to us' followed by some nasty words from them and then they hung up on him. Those types of comments are nothing new and instead of being able to have an adult discussion they chose to try guilt which has been used too often to have much impact on us anymore. I just can't keep having that much stress in my life, I'm not sleeping at night and my blood pressure which is normally below normal is now running high. I know it is affecting Tom too but since he's not home often I don't know what all physical effects it's having on him. Hopefully, with time Cody will see that if a person is old enough to get married then it's time to be responsible for your own life. Our continued handing out of money to 'tide them over' until the next crisis is draining our possibilities for retirement from the rat race and the worst part is it's not even appreciated. I should have known they only looked at us as a financial windfall when we arrived back home after a rare 4 day trip away from the farm Jess commented on how they'd discussed if anything would have happened to us what they'd have done with their inheritance. They even asked us how much life insurance we had! At that time they had only been married 7 mos. We are going to see a lawyer & a financial planner about the houses and set up a new will also. If nothing else I'd like the place to go to some group that would appreciate it and take care of it; maybe a domestic abuse org or an animal sanctuary for homeless/abused farm animals.

I don't know where kids get the idea about inheritances being their right. I was totally left out of my folks will(I was adopted and it all went to my brother-their biologic child) and Toms parents were not wealthy so each kid only got about $500.00. Neither of us ever felt it was our right to what our parents had and never expected anything. We earned everything we got and our proud of that fact. Maybe it's the times; it seems like you hear of more young adults feeling they are entitled to so much without having to pay their dues. I looked back on how Cody was raised and for the life of me I don't see where he came up with that free loader attitude. He wasn't a selfish child and he did community service projects for the poor as a teen-even organizing the first food drive in our small town. As a family we worked with the Aliveness Project for AIDS victims, packed boxes & rang bells for the Salvation Army, all the type of things that were uplifting and should have given him an idea of just how lucky we were as a family to have what we had. It seems like once he graduated his whole attitude toward life changed.

Anyway, it's over and now we'll just learn to go on. Thanks everyone, it really helped to see that our concerns weren't selfish and did have some merit. With the passing of time maybe we can get back to some sort of family again but I think it's going to take some maturing on their part to get to that point.

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), October 06, 2002.

I really have nothing to add in regards advice, I think others were apt in offering constructive, realistic options and alternatives.

I just wanted to say, I'm sorry you have to go through this. I am going through something very similar with my children, and while I feel in my hearts heart that I'm being true to not only myself, but all involved, it's really easy to feel guilty...

I can work it all out intellectually, but that doesn't change that ill will, misunderstandings, expectations, guilt, betrayal, bewilderment, anger, etc., etc., all come into play. That's so hard, for all involved.

I guess it pretty much comes down to the fact that you can only be responsible for you, for your actions and reactions, your feelings, and can't become enmeshed in how these are received, reacted on, percieved by others...even our own children. It isn't about love, it's about being human, being an individual, choosing our own paths. You just do the best you can. And you Kathy, as anyone can see almost immediately, even in this medium, are a loving, caring, giving person....again, I'm sorry you are feeling hurt right now.

-- Patty (SycamoreHollow@aol.com), October 06, 2002.

I'm sorry too, Kathy. We all need family but nobody can HURT us like family can. I am currently on the outs with 2 family members and it really hurts, but they have made up their own minds and they will either change them or they won't. I have tried after past arguements to reconcile with those two and it doesn't work. They are angry until time smooths things over. Neither one is big on forgiving and forgetting, so I have found no better solution than to let time help. Rats.

I really hope that your son (and my Mother and SIL!) get halfway over it soon, so that peace can be made. I cannot change the person that I am to suit my family (Because I SOMETIMES say no), and you shouldn't be expected to be somebody else, either. We are as God has made us, and God doesn't make cr*p.

Take care, Terri

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), October 06, 2002.

I'm really sorry that you had to go through this Kathy, but IMO you made the right decision. It sounds like you did a great job of raising him, but some kids just need to rebel, even against a good upbringing. Hopefully this is just a phase and eventually he'll grow up and get his act together. Homesteaders are a self-reliant bunch, so if he really does want to be a homesteader then he should be self- reliant enough to get his own land. My MIL has bought houses for both of her daughters but she won't do anything for us because we don't have children. Sometimes I feel a little twinge of jealousy when I visit them but the truth is I wouldn't feel comfortable being beholden to her anyway.

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), October 07, 2002.

Kathy, we had such a similar experience it was almost scary. We chose to let the kids figure it out on their own, just like we had to. Our son didn't talk to us for several months and now not a week goes by that he doesn't thank us, because within a couple of years of our decision, the wife moved to "greener pastures." I can sure empathize with you not wanting to spend the rest of your life here in Ky. You know I feel the same way, for the same reasons. My mind is wandering north, also, more every week. Hang in there. Jean from Ky.

-- jean from ky. (dandrea@duo-county.com), October 07, 2002.

Kathy,

Did YOUR parents take over YOUR responsibilities in life? How is your son ever going to grow up if you keep him tied to you by bailing him out and "tiding him over"? Sorry - I know this sounds harsh, but I want you to think about this. If your boy is to ever become a man, than his parents have to let go, and let him get on his way.

The best question I can ask you is. . . . WHY do you want you son to remain your little boy? ? ? And you will answer me that you don't. Then I will say to you to let this boy go, and let him grow. The way we grow and mature is to make our mistakes, and then figure out how to rectify the mistake, and then know how never to make the same mistake again.

What I have, I have worked diligently over the years to attain. Boy, am I proud of that! ! Isn't it the same for you? You did it ON YOUR OWN. Now, don't you want your boy to have that same feeling of pride and accomplishment? Ain't gonna happen if you are there paving his way and keeping him a child.

As to the property. Your elevator is not going to the top floor if you are planning to GIVE your beloved farm to someone who has yet to show any appreciation for the good things which have came his way.

Put him in the will if you wish, or put the farm in a revokable trust naming him the beneficiary, ( this also protects it from spouses if he doesn't co-mingle the inheritance with joint assets) and it keeps you in CONTROL until you are SURE it is well protected.

Kathy, it is time to let your boy become a man ! ! Get out of his way!

-- Granny Hen (Cluckin along@cs.com), October 08, 2002.

Thanks everyone for the kind words and understanding. Granny sometimes you can say exactly whats going on in my mind.:) I really don't want to keep him a boy, in fact I rejoiced when he finally moved out on his own. I wasn't a sad empty nester, I'd waited 19 yrs for him to be on his own. It's probably just another way of manipulating me but the one area that Cody & now Jess too knows bothers me is if they are hungry, so that's when I've caved in & sent them money-to buy food when they call saying how they don't have any groceries. Changing old habits will be hard but not impossible. It must be my upbringing-my folks would never let anyone (even strangers) who stopped by the farm go hungry and we've always tried to help out those in need. By reading everyone's answers and opinions I am more clearly able to see that my soft spots(weaknesses? are what what they are using to get money. I haven't caved in and I did get a short e-mail just to say hi from him. It is amazing to look at a situation through others eyes, then it all seems to be so much more obvious. Again, thanks and I'll keep you posted.

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), October 09, 2002.