My protestant (Dutch reform) boyfriend (formally engaged since with family ceremony since 1999) and I wish to marry in May, 2003. He was previously married to a woman for 8 years and was married by a justice of the peace in Italy. He just obtained his divorce and we wish to marry in a Catholic church and educate our eventual children in the Catholic faith. We had to wait almost four years for the divorce to go through in Italy, and his first wife had serious mental instability and did not disclose to him her dislike of children. Since he is not Catholic nor was married within a religious ceremony, may we proceed with our plans as a "first marriage" for both of us? We are both in our late 30s and desire a family.

Is there any paperwork he needs to obtain before proceeding?

Thank you for any input! Ann

-- Ann Netics (annetics@hotmaill.com), September 19, 2002

Answers

Hello, Ann.

The following, I believe, is a reliable principle: "Any time a person has gone through any kind of wedding ceremony (Christian or non-Christian, whether according to Catholic canonical form or not) with a person who is still alive, those two people cannot attempt marriage to anyone else without first obtaining a Decree of Nullity, issued by a bishop after the work of a marriage tribunal."

Therefore, you need to visit your pastor as soon as possible and explain the whole situation to him. Please brace yourself now, because I have to say a few tough words ...

If your friend is not willing to seek a Decree of Nullity, then the two of you will not be able to get married. Even if he does seek one, but is not granted one (because the Church determines that he is still married, in God's eyes), then you will not be able to marry each other.

That is why it is not possible to speak of yourself as "engaged" or to set even a tentative date. (He may still be married. Divorces are not recognized by the Catholic Church, except as civil proceedings. Only God can divide, by death, what he has joined.) It is impossible to know (1) how long the Nullity procedure will take (usually 6 to 18 months, depending on the complexity) and (2) what the outcome will be. If the tribunal decides that there was no valid marriage, then your friend will be free to marry you -- after your diocese's required pre-marriage instructions, which may last six months. [I don't know if your bishop would permit you to take these instructions during the nullity process. I doubt it, because of the potential for an even more devastating letdown if the Decree of Nullity is not granted.]

I'm sorry if I have painted a bleak picture, but I wanted to be fully honest with you.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 19, 2002.

Ann,

I am in a similiar situation. I believe the response you got is a wrong one. WIth all the research I have done you two shouldn't have any problem. The catholic church does not recognize weddings by a justice of the peace. They say it has to be a sacramental marriage in order for them to recognize it (any one of the Christian religions) SO in reality the church sees him as never being married. check the following web page out. It will answer alot of your questions. Just remember these key words when you go talk to your priest about getting married. "Canonical Form"...his first marriage was not in canonical form therefore they CANNOT view it as a marriage. www.ultimatewedding.com/articles/get.php?action=getarticle&articleid=5 71

Hope this helps!!!

-- KAT (kitkat6@cox.net), September 24, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Ann.
I can assure you that "KAT" has given you terribly incorrect information.

He or she said: "The catholic church does not recognize weddings by a justice of the peace. They say it has to be a sacramental marriage in order for them to recognize it (any one of the Christian religions)."

This is doubly false.
(1) Actually, the Catholic Church presumes to be valid any marriage of two non-Catholics before a Justice of the Peace.
(2) And actually, the Catholic Church presumes to be valid any non-sacramental marriage of non-Christians.

KAT also wrote: "Just remember these key words when you go talk to your priest about getting married. 'Canonical Form' ... his first marriage was not in canonical form therefore they CANNOT view it as a marriage."

Again, this is doubly wrong.
(1) Your friend is "Dutch Reformed" and was thus not bound by "Canonical Form." [You did not mention the religion of his wife. Surely, if she were Catholic, you would have mentioned that.]
(2) Even if a wedding involving one or two Catholics was done contrary to canonical form, it is still necessary for a tribunal-based nullity process to occur (though it is likely to be much shorter than average).

Ann, the first piece of advice I gave you was this: "you need to visit your pastor as soon as possible and explain the whole situation to him."
I assume that you did that and found that what I told you was correct, which explains why you did not come back here to tell me that I made an error.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 24, 2002.

Dear John,

I visited my priest, and I am afraid that you are right. Thank you for your advice. I would have loved for Kat to be on to something, but it seems that my priest shares your opinion.

One question, if a wedding involving no Catholics is done contrary to canonical form, is it still necessary for a tribunal-based nullity process to occur?

At the moment, I am collecting all information on my boyfriend (birth certificate, marriage certificate and divorce papers) to provide to the tribunal. His first wife was never baptized. I am heartbroken, but it has to be done. If you have any good advice, I am all ears.

Keep me in your prayers and God bless you.

Ann

-- Ann (annetics@hotmail.com), September 24, 2002.

Jmj

Hello again, Ann.
You are a very nice lady, and I am really praying for you tonight!

You asked: "... if a wedding involving no Catholics is done contrary to canonical form, is it still necessary for a tribunal-based nullity process to occur?"

The answer is "Yes." For example, two Methodists (or Jews or Hindus, etc.) would certainly not be married according to "Catholic canonical form," because our "form" includes being married in a Catholic church, normally with a priest or deacon present, etc., etc.. So let us suppose that those Methodists divorce, and one of them falls in love with a Catholic. The Catholic's diocesan tribunal would have to consider the "union" of the two Methodists -- [was it valid or not?] -- to determine whether or not the one Methodist is truly free now to marry the Catholic.

However, you have raised a new and interesting point: "At the moment, I am collecting all information on my boyfriend (birth certificate, marriage certificate and divorce papers) to provide to the tribunal. His first wife was never baptized."

I am not an expert on this point, but I know that the Church (following something stated in the New Testament) handles in a special way a "natural" (non-sacramental) marriage between a baptized Christian and a non-baptized person. Here is what a marriage tribunal has written about this [and will probably want to show this to your pastor and tribunal]:

"The Petrine Privilege ... is a dissolution of a non-sacramental marriage in which the Holy Father himself, exercising his authority as the Vicar of Christ and executive agent of divine law, sets aside an existing marriage bond ... in favor of a marriage bond which would support the faith of the Christian party. There is a very specific kind of process and investigation required by Rome in order to complete this process. If all the ‘t’s are crossed and all the ‘i’s are carefully dotted, then the process usually takes no more than three months to receive a response. At the same time, one should keep in mind that this process does require the intervention of the Holy Father. [Very Rev. Kevin Michael Quirk, JCD, Judicial Vicar, Diocese of Wheeling-Charleston]"

Another source of information mentions this, which may be helpful to you and others:
The "Pauline [not Petrine] Privilege is the dissolution of a purely natural marriage which had been contracted between two non-Christians, one of whom has since become a Christian. The Pauline Privilege is so-named because it is based upon the apostle Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 7:12-16. ... Paul gives instructions concerning the thornier case of a couple who have only a natural marriage. A sacramental marriage, one that communicates supernatural grace, requires that both partners be baptized. If neither is [baptized] or only one is, their union is only a natural one. ... While natural marriages should be preserved if at all possible, they can be dissolved in some cases. Paul tells us ... that if the unbelieving spouse refuses to live with the [converted] Christian partner, the unbeliever can be allowed to withdraw from the marriage, leaving the Christian partner unbound, free to remarry. The Pauline Privilege thus may apply when the Church dissolves a natural marriage after one partner has become Christian and there is a just cause, such as the non-Catholic's refusal to live at peace with the Christian partner. ... The Pauline Privilege does not apply when two baptized people marry and later one quits being Christian. ... The Pauline Privilege also does not apply when a Christian has married a non-Christian. In those cases, a natural marriage exists and can be dissolved for a just cause, but by what is called the Petrine Privilege rather than by the Pauline Privilege. ... A biblical precedent for the Petrine Privilege, where some of the faithful marry unbelievers and then are permitted to divorce them, is found in Ezra 10:1-14, where the Jews put away their foreign (pagan) wives."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 25, 2002.

John,

Allow me to thank you from the bottom of my heart for the time you have dedicated to me, a complete stranger. You are proof positive that there is something powerful and good on this earth. You have incredible knowledge and the grace to share it. I will never forget you.

Thank you for your time and prayers.

-Ann

-- Ann (annetics@hotmail.com), September 25, 2002.

You are very welcome, Ann. I appreciate your terribly kind words. It will be an honor to be remembered by you.

I want to apologize for making a mistake in my last message, wherein I stated that the Petrine Privilege (on which you may now depend) is based on a New Testament passage. As you probably noticed, it is the Pauline Privilege that is based in St. Paul, while the Petrine Privilege is based in an Old Testament passage in Ezra.

May the Lord bless and keep you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 26, 2002.

I am sorry to bother this discussion but I have a question as well.I am a roman catholic and my fiance is a protestants...If we wish to mary in catholic church, do we need to do something special before...? I would not like that he switches his religion in catholic...and I do not want to become a protestant as well...We are fine like this ,we believe in the same God but our tradicions are different.

Can someone help me...? Thank you.

-- Veronika Klen (npaard@net.hr), November 26, 2002.

Hello, Veronika.

Before you can be married in the Catholic Church, you need to have a series of preparatory meetings with your pastor -- and possibly some additional educational meetings, if your bishop requires this.

When you meet your pastor, you will explain that you wish to enter into a "mixed marriage," because your fiance is a non-Catholic Christian. You will have to obtain permission from your bishop to enter into such a marriage.

You wrote: "I would not like that he switches his religion in catholic... and I do not want to become a protestant as well..."
Since the Catholic Church is the only church that Jesus founded, naturally you don't want to leave her ... but, BECAUSE ours is the only church that Jesus founded, you should desire most earnestly that your fiance become a Catholic some day (the sooner the better)!

No Catholic should ever want a Protestant to remain a Protestant (or a Muslim to remain a Muslim, etc.). Why not desire the best for people -- the fullness of the truth and all seven Sacraments, which together can be found only in Catholicism?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 29, 2002.

I truly agree with what John were saying but I too is in a situation like Ann's. My fiance is a prostestant, divorced with two young children, the reason of the divorce was the wife and she applied the divorce and my finace goes along with it. They are divorced for over 2 years now. Both are protestant.

He had not proposed marriage but we are likely to lead that direction and I want to be prepared. I already told him about me not marrying a non-catholic and he is very postive with it, even mentioned his willingness to convert if its the way to my heart. How likely is it that he will be granted a nullity of marriage by the Catholic church? I am not in my home country,and my fiance is also in another country but if we get married i'd like to be done at home, is it possible to go with the proccess somewhere other than your home country and consumate the marriage at home? Can we do the process separately from our places of work?

And, does the church have anything to say about inter-racial marriages?

Thank you in advance.

I am reading Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hann, a nice book on non-catholics conversion to Catholicism shared by my sister and I like to share it with you too.

D

-- Dhidhak Bandalan (djpbandalan01@bigpond.com), December 02, 2002.

Hi to all... I am drawn in and I like to post my questions (sorry no answers from me)

I truly agree with what John were saying but I too is in a situation like Ann's. My fiance is a prostestant, divorced with two young children, the reason of the divorce was the wife and she applied the divorce and my finace goes along with it. They are divorced for over 2 years now. Both are protestant.

He had not proposed marriage but we are likely to lead that direction and I want to be prepared. I already told him about me not marrying a non-catholic and he is very postive with it, even mentioned his willingness to convert if its the way to my heart. How likely is it that he will be granted a nullity of marriage by the Catholic church? I am not in my home country,and my fiance is also in another country but if we get married i'd like to be done at home, is it possible to go with the proccess somewhere other than your home country and consumate the marriage at home? Can we do the process separately from our places of work?

And, does the church have anything to say about inter-racial marriages?

Thank you in advance.

I am reading Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hann, a nice book on non-catholics conversion to Catholicism shared by my sister and I like to share it with you too.

D

-- Dhidhak Bandalan (djpbandalan01@bigpond.com.kh), December 02, 2002.

Hello, Dhidhak Bandalan.
What an interesting name you have! Are you from Kazakhstan? (I see the "kh" at the end of your e-mail address.)

You wrote: "I already told [my fiance] about me not marrying a non-catholic and he is very postive with it, even mentioned his willingness to convert if its the way to my heart."

Dear friend, please tell him that he should not convert to Catholicism merely to win your heart. He should convert only if he would do so even if he had never met you. In other words, he should convert only if he really believes every teaching of the Catholic Church and longs to receive the sacraments.

You asked: "How likely is it that he will be granted a nullity of marriage by the Catholic church?"

I'm sorry, but no one can predict this. It may happen, but it may not. Perhaps he is still married, in God's eyes.

You asked: "... is it possible to go with the [nullity] proccess somewhere other than your home country and consumate the marriage at home? Can we do the process separately from our places of work?"

I think that you should take this question to your pastor and ask him to get some advice from your diocesan marriage tribunal, if necessary.

You continued: "And, does the church have anything to say about inter-racial marriages?"

There is no rule against interracial marriage. Perhaps you would like to read this past conversation we have had on the subject.

You stated: "I am reading Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hann, a nice book on non-catholics conversion to Catholicism shared by my sister and I like to share it with you too."

Thank you! Scott and Kimberly are wonderful people.
God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 06, 2002.

No need to answer my first question, Dhidhak. I realize now that the "kh" is for "khmer," as in Cambodia.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 07, 2002.

Ann, Kat, Veronika, Dhidhak Bandalan,

I am very happy to know your intentions to marry in the Catholic Church. But first I would like to ask you that, have you ever asked GOD whether it is HIS will that you should marry these buddies?

Take a moment of your life, close the doors of your room, sit in silence (alone) and talk to GOD or visit the Blessed Sacrament and ask HIM, if it is HIS will, that you should marry these.

It has become like any other fashion to say I am Catholic or I want to marry in the Catholic Church [not pointing to you ladies, just my humble xperience].

Peace

Xavier

PS: John, as usual, you are once again the target of my admiration :- ). Just a little question, I have often seen your certain post starting with “Jmj”. What does it mean “Jesus Mary Joseph”? Or “Just My Joke” :-)

-- Xavier (crusaders_warship@yahoo.com), December 09, 2002.

I am humbled, knowing that I don't deserve such kind words as yours.
The "Jmj" stands for "Jesus, mary, and joseph." I use the capital "J" to honor the divine nature of our Savior.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 10, 2002.

Hi John, guess you figured it out even before I read your answers. Yes, I am based in Cambodia.

Thanks for the reply, really appreciate it and I know it would sound lame for him to be saying that "he will convert just to win me over"... but it was not said just for the sake of saying it, and I am sure you know what i mean. We had discussed the future in length and that is why we are seeking advices, for us to be certain of what life God has planned for us. He already accepted that for us to be together as a couple it would take time and we are willing to wait, until we are both ready, me for the married life and him for becoming a Catholic and second marriage.

John, it is very encouraging to know that there are people like you who understands rather than condemn and question people who fall in love like me. My fiance may not be a perfect guy but we are putting God in the centre of our relationship and I don't think we can go wrong with that decision. I know God is merciful and kind, He will not let us go astray with this.

God bless you

Dhidhak

-- Dhidhak (djpbandalan@bigpond.com.kh), December 15, 2002.