annulment case stressing me outgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
I truly don't mean any of this as a flame I am just very frustrated.I am a divorced non-catholic (United Methodist) man seeking to marry a Catholic woman. I am seeking annulment from my first wife, yet we have been told this will take about 1.5 years and we cannot set a wedding date in the Catholic church until the anullment is final. My fiancee and myself are both 32 years old and wish to have children. There are medical reasons that we cannot wait 2 years of more to try to conceive children. We are planning to marry in the Methodist church amd have our marriage convalidated after the anullment is complete. My problems with the anullment are as follows.
1. I understand the gospel and that "whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery" and I have struggled with this one yet I have to feel the context is that if you were to leave your wife for another woman. I did not do that, my wife left me. It takes two to make a bond according to God's holy ordinance and only one to break it. SO, personally I do not feel that I am committing adultery by getting married.
2. I feel very strongly that judging others is NOT a Christian value, but this whole process and the tribunal is designed just for that purpose and is in direct conflict with the words of Jesus himself. Even worse this judgment will be done by priests who have NO experience in marriage, so on what authority do they judge what was a valid marriage?
3. The process just takes WAY TOO LONG.
4. The fact that my fiancee will be banned from receiving communion until our marriage is blessed by the Catholic church is just ridiculous. One of my biggest hurdles with accepting Catholicism is accepting that preists decide who is worthy of receiving Jesus Christ and an individual believer cannot come to Chirst on their own terms.
Yet, over the past several months I have been learning and admiring Catholicism. I especially admire the role of the Virgin Mother and the Saints which I now feel is a major flaw in th protestant denominations. Even to the point were I wished to marry in the Catholic church, raise my children as Catholic and over time most become Catholic myself. However, the anullment is putting a bad taste in my mouth.
I want very badly to be accepted by my fiance's family and I am doing everything I can to comply with the Catholic church's wishes except put my life on hold for years. Now I am finding out that a substantial portion of my fiancee's family will not attend our wedding because it will not be held in a Catholic church. I have tried so hard to put aside my own prejudices and learn to appreciate the Catholic faith as an act of good will. It is disheartening that many only feel that this some kind of obligation and they will not make any attempt to recognize or respect my church and it's beliefs.
Aren't we all brothers in Christ? We hold so many sacred beliefs in common, why is it so much easier for people to close their hearts, and minds and be so intolerant? By the way, I dont mean this to sound anti-catholic. I have had past experience with extreme prejudice and intolerance directed towards Catholics in my own family.
Maybe I am just venting and want someone to hear my story. I'll get off my soap box now.
Peace be with you and God bless.
-- Kurt McKinnis (kurt_mckinnis@msn.com), July 31, 2002
I won't comment on the details concerning annulment processes and whatnot... there's people on here far more qualified to handle that.But about the complaining, I think that is pretty much normal; I've done more than my fair share in other regards. I would say venting seems ok to me to a point. I recall in particular the parable about the two sons; the fathers asks one to do a chore and he says ok but fails to deliver; the other complains but ends up doing the task and gets the approval of the father.
Have some patience with yourself as getting used to new ways of thinking take time, and be patient with the Church, because think about it... what you may find irritating about Church law and doctrine, or what appears to be intolerance, you might be thankful for later, in that it becomes a comfort that the Church holds fast and doesn't change its position. The Rock might not be comfortable to sit on but it stable and safe to build on.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2002.
Hi Kurt:Here's an interesting article. Apparently, there are changes coming in the Church's annulment process geared towards Protestant marriages. It does seem that the Church is overstepping its bounds in annulling Protestant marriages, and I think that process is causing some hard feelings by our Protestant brethren. I hope that they will come up with a more pastoral solution to Protestant marriages pre-conversion, like the article suggests. Perhaps hashing through the issues with your priest who knows and loves you -- would seem much better to me. Have you talked to your priest? Do you have a priest? You should find one who is gentle and understanding to help you through this process. I know the concept of a "tribunal" seems so judicial, and cold, but if you have your priest working with you, that will lessen the burden and give you support.
But don't WORRY about the conception of your children. He is in control, and I believe He will honor your patience and endurance in this matter. Remember it is He who opens and closes the womb!
Vatican may simplify annulment rules By JOHN L. ALLEN JR. Rome
A new Vatican document, now in the working stages, could nudge the American Catholic church to a more rigorous approach to annulments. It will contain new rules for church courts that handle requests for declaring a marriage invalid.
Sources say the document may also resolve several procedural headaches, making the process easier for canon lawyers and ultimately for Catholics who seek to remarry with the church’s blessing.
Though the final text is not yet available, experts familiar with the document say a draft version contained a provision that will be of strong ecumenical interest. It would recognize the marriage law of other Christian churches -- especially the Orthodox and Anglican -- as part of Catholic canon law. Thus, if a marriage were nullified under Orthodox law, it would be considered invalid for Catholics as well, and a formal judgment of invalidity would not be needed.
The new document is formally known as an “instruction on the nullity of marriage,” and it will replace a previous set of rules for processing annulment requests, called Provida Mater, that dates from 1936, during the pontificate of Pius XI.
Specialists have known for years that a new set of rules was in the works, since John Paul II first requested the project in 1996. It is a joint project of three Vatican offices: the Roman Rota, which is the main ecclesiastical court in the Vatican; the Apostolic Signatura, the church’s supreme court; and the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts.
In January 1999, a draft of the document was sent to various bishops’ conferences around the world for comment. The three offices held a round of meetings in May and June 2000 to consider the responses.
In mid-March, Cardinal Mario Francesco Pompedda announced during a symposium at Rome’s Lateran University that the new instruction is now in an “advanced stage.”
Pompedda did not respond to NCR requests for comment on the document.
The United States produces by far the largest number of annulments in the world, some 60,000 a year. Supporters attribute this number to the high quality of American ecclesiastical tribunals, while critics fault the U.S. system for being too permissive.
In addition to Catholics who obtain an annulment, experts believe some 6 million American Catholics are divorced and civilly remarried without ever having attempted to go through the ecclesiastical process. The commonly accepted number among canonists is that only 10 percent of marriages of divorced American Catholics receive declarations of invalidity.
A Rome-based canonist said the document may address certain reservations Vatican officials have long harbored about the way the American church issues declarations of invalidity. These concerns include:
Use of psychological testing. Gathering testimony in writing rather than face-to-face. Settling certain appeals by simple decree rather than a “full process.” All three are seen by some in Rome as biased in favor of an eventual decision for invalidity. It would not be surprising, the canonist said, if the new document “tightens up” on these points.
At the same time, the document is expected to clarify procedural matters that have long been vexing to canonists. One example is “prior bonds,” meaning a case in which someone requesting an annulment has more than one prior marriage. It has long been unclear in what order the prior marriages must be examined, and if they should be dealt with in one action or several.
By addressing such matters, sources say, the document could make the process faster and easier for many applicants.
John L. Allen Jr. is NCR Rome correspondent. His e-mail address is jallen@natcath.org
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 01, 2002.
Gail - this is very enlightening indeed. Thank you so much for both the post and URL.
-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), August 01, 2002.
Kurt,If the marriage was valid to begin with, than I'm sorry to say, but even if your wife left you - you still would be married. Her sin does not exempt you from committing the very same sin. In other words, your comment " It takes two to make a bond according to God's holy ordinance and only one to break it." is not really accurate. More specifically: If two make a bond according to God's holy ordinances NO ONE can break it. And if two make a bond NOT according to God's holy ordinances, it already was broken.
I understand that it really doesn't seem fair. Neither does a 4 year old diagnosed with leukemia. But each has his (or her) cross to bear. The Catholic Church is build on Truth (exactly what Christ had commissioned). I like Emeralds comments. And for this, She (the Catholic Church) cannot make light of an annulment. It really isn't as simple as your wife leaving you. This doesn't invalidate an already valid marriage. "through good times and bad" is one of the statements I think they make. And this is what the Church has to investigate. If the Church is not thorough and grants you an annulment, when before God it is not, then the Church herself has denied Christ (who founded the Church) and committed a sacrilege.
It would be better for you to know for sure if your marriage was invalid (which the Church can unbiasedly investigate - whereas you or your wife would not be in the position to decide), then to remarry and commit the GRAVE sin of adultery. If the Church finds your marriage valid, then you must either attempt to reconcile with your wife; or remain separate but chaste. If the Church finds your marriage invalid, then you can marry (validly this time - hopefully), and God WILL bless you 10fold for your patients and trust in his guiding Church. To make the assumption that the Church will indeed grant you the annulment and marry outside the Church, is to play Russian roulette with your soul.
Lord, we ask you, Grant our dear brother, Kurt, the patience to hold fast to his Faith. And if his first marriage proves to be invalid, we ask, Holy Father, that you Grant Kurt and his new wife the ability and strength to bring forth new life to this world. St. Elizabeth, pray for Kurt and his future wife - that they may endure in their fruitfulness for many more years. Amen.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 02, 2002.
Congrats to all (esp. Jake H) for great replies to Kurt.
Kurt, you stated: "I understand the gospel and that 'whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery,' and I have struggled with this one, yet I have to feel the context is that if you were to leave your wife for another woman."I was greatly relieved to read that you are feeling attracted to Catholicism. I notice, in what I quoted, that you experience a need to figure out the meaning of this crucial passage on your own, and your own personal desires and biases [note your word "feel"] are intruding. You have no church, no Magisterium (authentic, authoritative teachers) to aid you in this dilemma, so you more or less are forced to be your own pope. By contrast, we Catholics can relax and know that the Church Jesus founded has explained the meaning of the quoted passage the same way for 2,000 years. I urge you to accept the age-old teaching, which comes to us through the Apostles.
Please reflect on this and the other advice that folks have given you here. I ask, on behalf of my fellow Catholic (your friend, the Catholic woman), that you live chastely until a sacramental marriage, blessed by our Church, can be celebrated (should that become possible). Thanks.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 16, 2002.
Dear Kurt, We're riding in the same Catholic boat and there isn't enough Dramamine to calm my nerves for this trip through the annulment process. I am a 38-year-old divorced non-Catholic woman who is engaged to a devout Catholic man. We are anxious to start a family, but thanks to the Catholic church, the annulment process is taking more than 15 months. Leave it to the politics of the Catholic church to preside over my eggs and ovaries. The only reason the church can't order my death today is simply because society law has more power than ancient Catholic law. Women used to be burned at the stake because they wouldn't say, "Yes, I'm Catholic!", now they're going to hold my feet to the fire and pressure the man I love by hurting him and his family if I don't get an annulment. Look, I'm above Catholic judgment. We are all above being judged by some other mortal. GOD has final word. As I sit and listen to a priest tell me, "Katie, we are not punishing your fiance because he wants to marry you, we are protecting him"--- well, I could feel God's love around me and I almost giggled with joy. I'm right with God. We are all God's children. And the Catholic church rears it's ugly cult-like head again when spouting off rules and regulations and letting us all know where God was or wasn't when people said , "I do" or "I don't" want to be in this marriage. Fellas, God doesn't like this. God's not happy when man judges man. God isn't up there with a checklist on a clipboard counting dates, erasing marriages, marking sins, giving you a waiting period to sort out whether or not you're worthy, witholding communion from those who have the nerve to fall in love with a divorced non-Catholic and checking off whether what time you went to mass that weekend so it could COUNT with GOD. Nope. God doesn't work that way. Man does. God gave me this man in my life. Religion isn't going to take him away. So, I'm doing this annulment process, filled out the paperwork, signed up the witnesses, wrote a letter to a man I haven't seen in 15 years to let him know that he's going to get a lot of Catholic law in his Church of Christ mail box. No, the fiance never pressured me to do this. In fact, he asked me not to because he didn't want to see me hurting. This is my decision. Love is larger than stupid rules. And God is love. I love my fiance more than I hold on to my pride. But I would be remiss, not to point out that this a very difficult process for someone like me. I'm a career investigative journalist and it's very tempting to pick up the phone, call the Archbishop in this city and get some answers NOW! That's what a reporter would do. That's all I know how to do is search for truth. But we're not dealing in the real world. We're dealing in the Catholic reality. The bubble, as I like to call it. The Catholic church will continue giving me the Catholic perspective on my life, my decision at the age of 21 to marry while in college and my difficult choice to divorce at the age of 23 and move on with my life. Now, here I sit, 15 years later listening to the Catholic church tell the man I love why he will not receive the sacraments because he has chosen to marry me. We are almost 40-years-old, for GOD'S sake, and his parents won't like watching their golden son get married in a civil ceremony. But I'm sure they didn't like watching their other son get divorced, marry in another church and then wait for almost two years for an annulment so he could have his second marriage blessed by their Catholic church. And I'm sure they weren't happy that their other child married a non-Catholic as well. So, now the last wedding among their children will be yet ANOTHER sticky point with the Catholic church. Another "mixed marriage" as the church likes to call it. And you know the greatest irony is, this is yet another Catholic rule that will likely change in a century or so. As society changes, as pressure mounts on Catholics to dwell among sinners like the rest of us have to, Catholics adjust. Annulment was just a convenient and less than clever clerical trick to smooth over that divorce issue within the church. I almost feel sorry for Catholics. The church uses basic control and manipulation tactics to rob their people of living an authentic lives. I know there are catholics who are true christians, but Catholic law must make the christian walk very difficult. It sure has for me. Kurt, I hope the in-laws don't run you down, run your life, run your relationship. I've made it more than clear with my future in-laws to prepare for a civil ceremony. We're sitting down with them tonight to set the record straight, announce a wedding date and move on with our lives. They can all watch their son get the blessing of their church when the annulment goes through. But I'll likely be pregnant by the time that happens, oh my, that will be yet another story. The priest has already told us my pregnancy wouldn't be an issue then. I almost laughed when he spent ten minutes explaining how it wouldn't be a problem. Think about that. I can be knocked up, not "REALLY" married in the eyes the church, but newly annulled and pregnant and I'm clear! There's a rule to make THAT okay and I'm sure a price for it as well. By the way, the annulment was 375.00. Wonder if a six figure income would help the annulment process? Hmmmm, maybe that should be mentioned and the 'ol 10 percent profit for the Catholic church? It's laughable. It's ridiculous. But it's serious judgment. And God, as MY witness, doesn't like this. katie keifer (kkeifer@satx.rr.com)
-- katie keifer (kkeifer@satx.rr.com), August 27, 2002.
Katie,I'm glad you had the opportunity to vent. We all need that sometimes. However, before you make comments that you very likely will regret later, you should read the mirriad of letters already posted on this website which hopefully might server to increase your understanding of just why exactly the Catholic Church has the annulment process.
At the risk of repeating the same thing, oh lets say for the 100000th time:
The annulment process IS NOT a divorce! A divorce serves to (or attempts to) over-ride that which God has brought together. An annulment is a document which the Church puts together that declares that there really wasn't a marriage to begin with. In other words, while a divorce acknowledges the previous marriage and falsely attempt to claim to "re-marry" you, an annulment rightly declares that there was no marriage to begin with and therefore you can marry (this time for real) for the first time. In the eyes of God, and the Catholic Church which works FOR God, humans only CAN marry once in a lifetime. For the Catholic Church "till death do you part" really means till death do you part. It is that not just a fun thing to say to make it sound official?
Now, since an annulment is declaring that there wasn't a previous marriage, the Church must thoroughly search and investigate to make sure that they are not contradicting God's bond, which unites two so that they indeed become one. For this reason it takes long. If the Catholic Church were to skim through your case and say - ah well, it LOOKS like you guys are cute together, and your previous spouse was in our opinion a real jerk, so okay - we'll grant an annulment - not only would the Church damn herself, but she would also be putting your soul in a state of sin!
Therefore, what the pastor told you and your fiance is true. They only care about you! Okay, they might not care what you feel, because quite often what we feel is not the best for us. I feel like eating a five gallon bucket of ice-cream, but, well, you know the consequences. The consequences of a marriage that is invalid however is substantially worse than a night in the bathroom. How about the possibility for a lifetime in hell! I opt to wait the 15 months.
It may be frustrating, yet think if it were so easy! Everyone would be free to marry, re-marry, re-marry and so forth until the cows come home! There would be no "bond". Was God joking when he instituted the marriage sacrament? Was Jesus joking when he re-affirmed the sacrament (Therefore, what God has brought together, let no person tear appart). The Catholic Church was instituted by Christ to uphold Gods values, and indeed she does. In fact she is the only Church which takes the marriage sacrament seriously.
I do hope that you search this site and take to heart all that is said. Because the Catholic Church isn't a monster. She cares about us not with a human love that sympathizes for human needs to the point of giving us what we want at the risk of damning our souls. The Church has the Love of God, which is the love of a father, who despite His child’s urges to touch the hot stove, would not give in to sympathy at the risk of hurting His beloved sons and daughters.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 27, 2002.
Thanks for your candor. Your response confirms for me that Catholics are living in your Catholic bubble. I do not begrudge you for that. I respect a persons right and desire to worship any way he or she pleases. Most importantly, I do not try to push my beliefs on anybody else. And you're right. I don't like the way it feels. And so you've helped me reach the decision to stop the annulment process all together (we're getting married in a civil ceremony anyway) and move on with our lives. It is no wonder people are leaving the Catholic church in droves. As for the divorce aspect, I did not imply nor did I ever think that a Catholic annulment was a divorce. I know exactly what is is, a CATHOLIC rule that applies to CATHOLICS. I take marriage vows seriously, and yes, a marriage did happen and no I don't need the Catholic church to tell me whether or not it did. Your annulment rules will change (as with everything else Catholicism has created to control the masses) and eventually you all will see that we are ALL God's children with or without some priest telling us how to feel about ourselves. I'm just waiting for the RIGHT victim of one of the predators in a collar to come forward. It somehow isn't enough for countless grown men to cry on national television and tell how a priest raped them while they used GOD as a weapon. It'll happen. It'll be a celebrity, a politician, somebody the Catholic church is truly afraid will be heard and then you'll get your ducks in a row and write some new rules for your priests as well. Live your Catholic life. Love your Catholic rules. But don't you dare tell me they affect me, my soul, my life, my happiness or my future marriage...which will be a joyous occasion...far far away from the Catholic Church.
-- katie keifer (kkeifer@satx.rr.com), August 27, 2002.
"And so you've helped me reach the decision to stop the annulment process all together (we're getting married in a civil ceremony anyway) and move on with our lives."So now, I hope you understand that you (and not the Catholic Church) are trying to userp Gods plan of marriage for Life (thit is, of course, with one person only).
"It is no wonder people are leaving the Catholic church in droves."
While you are looking at the droves leaving, I on the contrary see droves entering. Maybe we should look at the net result?
"As for the divorce aspect, I did not imply nor did I ever think that a Catholic annulment was a divorce. I know exactly what is is, a CATHOLIC rule that applies to CATHOLICS."
From this statement, and the current facts about an annulment, it is apperent that you do not know exactly what it is. :)
"I take marriage vows seriously, and yes, a marriage did happen and no I don't need the Catholic church to tell me whether or not it did."
The Catholic Church will ensure that you are taking it seriously, because despite the fact that you think you are taking them seriously, one only needs to look at the track record to see the truth.
"Your annulment rules will change (as with everything else Catholicism has created to control the masses) and eventually you all will see that we are ALL God's children with or without some priest telling us how to feel about ourselves."
If you've read a bit of history, you'd know that in 2002 years of the Catholic Church's history it has not once changed its teachings in regard to faith and morals. And just as sure as Jesus promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against her, I too am sure that for another 2002 years the Catholic Church will stand firm in her teaching.
"I'm just waiting for the RIGHT victim of one of the predators in a collar to come forward."
So now it isn't a matter of divorce (annolment if you would:). You are angry that there are "predators" in the Catholic church. Maybe you should check the registree in your neighborhood to see just how many "predators" there are OUTSIDE the Church.
"Love your Catholic rules. But don't you dare tell me they affect me, my soul, my life, my happiness or my future marriage...which will be a joyous occasion...far far away from the Catholic Church."
In love, if you don't want our opinion, then why on earth did you write on a Catholic opinion board? Although I pray that your marriage (this time) indeed does last, I am compelled to let you know that a marriage rooted "far far away from the Catholic Church" is a marriage doomed from the begining.
Thanks for your response none the less, and I am filled with joy to have served my master, Jesus Christ. I also pray that despite your disagreement with me, and the Catholic Church, you would persue finding out more information. Your soul IS in danger, and it isn't me who is judging you, this is written in Sacred Scripture. I am only conveying to you, what God has spoken.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 27, 2002.
Hello, Jake.I have to compliment you on being willing to bend over backwards, with good will and patience (to a heroic degree), to help Katie to know the truth and to be aware of her errors. I would never have been able to tolerate her abusiveness and haughtiness for one minute.
An "investigative journalist," she? If so, an incompetent one, as you have been able to reveal her ignorance of facts. She is a deeply disturbed and angry woman. This is the kind of thing that arises only from great guilt.
Jake, you wrote: "Although I pray that your marriage (this time) indeed does last ..."
That is not my prayer, good man. My prayer is that her male friend [who is not her "fiance," since she is still married] becomes aware of what a "harpy" he has, ready to prey on him. May he walk away from this disaster-in-the-making as soon as possible. She shows that this whole thing is about her own desires and satisfaction. She will have her way, even if she destroys his spiritual life, taking him away from the Sacraments and committing thousands of sins of adultery with him. Good riddance to her.And may God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 28, 2002.
Gentlemen, After reading the responses and looking into other question and answer areas, I see that this is not the place for an objective viewpoit or unbiased answers. Regardless, I just wanted my last entry on this site to say that while I might appear haughty, angry, defensive, etc. to you all, please understand that I am not Catholic and I don't wish to be Catholic, so it's very frustrating to have the Catholic law affect my life in such a devastating manner. Anyway, I apologize for offending any of you. We're just coming from opposite viewpoints. katie
-- katie (kkeifer@satx.rr.com), August 29, 2002.
Katie, please refrain from directing fear, ignorance and bigotry against the Catholic Church.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 03, 2002.
hi ,i wish to get an anulment,,ive been amrrried only 1 month,,is it possiible for me to get one..and do i ahve to go to court for it
-- simi ali (simi421@hotmail.com), October 07, 2002.
Katie, you sound exactly like a Katie I knew 15 years ago who was very a very close friend to me. If so, it truly is a small world. Respond only if you had a dog named Cochise...Oliver33@ih2000.net
-- wcr (oliver33@ih2000.net), October 08, 2002.
God is well aware of the history of the Catholic Church, its wrongdoings in His Name. He is aware of the good as well. He is disappointed in the separation of religions. His word shall come soon. He wants you all to return to faith.
-- A Messenger (listentohimnow@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.
Mess-enger,
The "Catholic Church" is not guilty of any "wrongdoings in [God's] Name."
Your message, however, is an example of a "wrongdoing in His Name."
Your bashings are worthless and unwelcome.
JFG
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.
Hello, I am engaged to a Catholic man and have run across something that I am trying to understand. His Father and Mother divorced and an anullment was "granted" (not sure if this is the right word to use).My question is: what does this do to the status of my fiance'? How is he viewed in the Catholic church?
He is a child of God born to a man and women who were Catholic, were married in the Catholic church and who chose to get an anullment!
-- Christine (christine_dull@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.
Dear Christine,You state: "He is a child of God born to a man and women who were Catholic, were married in the Catholic church and who chose to get an anullment!"
That is not quite correct. The correct statement would be "He is a child of God born to a man and woman who were Catholic, but whose marriage was not valid, due to a serious impediment that existed at the time of the wedding".
One does not simply "choose to get an annulment", the way one might "choose" to get a divorce. A marriage either IS valid or IS NOT valid. An annulment proceding can determine which of those alternatives is the truth, but it cannot dissolve a valid marriage. A valid marriage is indissoluble, except by the death of one of the spouses.
As for how the Church views your fiance, your description was correct - as a child of God. And as a Catholic in good standing if that is how he is living his life. God bless you both.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 05, 2003.
Thank you Paul.
-- Christine (christine_dull@hotmail.com), September 05, 2003.